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Author Topic: Guns - can the topic be discussed rationally?
Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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So do people who have guns in their home for protection keep them loaded in their bedside table? I've always been led to believe that that's about the last thing a responsible gun owner would do.

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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Island Manta
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
And I would never go so far as to say people shouldn't be allowed to own guns. What worries me is that people are so quick to say they're going to shoot someone with them.

I'm not all that fired up & ready to harm someone at all...I look at it as being proactive about my own safety. I'd hope that I would be able to find another way to resolve the situitation before resorting to a firearm. It hasn't happened yet, and hopefully it won't.

quote:
I'm sorry, but everytime I read something like this, I see it as fear. Aren't you religious?
Not religious in the least. What I tell people is I believe in myself rather than an "Invisible Pink Unicorn" or "omniscient being".

quote:
Yes, I suppose we will, Manta. Your mind is made up and nothing will change it. The only time I lambast anyone is when they can't keep their satisfaction of someone that "deserved" it getting what came to them, that they repeat it over and over to people that are mourning a victim. I hold all human life dear. I'm sad to find it's not a universal truth.

I also hope your life continues to be safe and you never have to experience a threat to your person first hand, Manta.

I'd never more than likely not say anyone "deserved" being shot. Those that engage in illegal activities DO deserve whatever LEGAL penalties are thrown at them, though. I, too, hold human life dear - bu if it comes down to mine versus someone who wants to TAKE mine, my choice is going to be clear - *I* like life too, or I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. I've given up many conveniences to move here...less personal safety happens to be one of them. Olive Garden is another [Wink] .

And thanks for the wellwishes on my safety - same backatcha...Detroit...whooboy! Too cold up there!

Now, it's time for ME to get ready for work tonight...oh boy....crab night...joy...joy [Roll Eyes]

-k

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"You never know when you will be attacked by a wild tortilla" - José Zavala
"Happiness isn't happiness without a violin playing goat"
Be good and you will be lonesome

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daisyslegs
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Christie:
So do people who have guns in their home for protection keep them loaded in their bedside table? I've always been led to believe that that's about the last thing a responsible gun owner would do.

This might freak a lot of people out, but yeah. My SO has been collecting antique rifles since the 50's. He has at least a couple hundred of them. They are locked in his collection rooms. But there is a pistol in the night stand upstairs, one on top of the fridge downstairs and a .22 rifle by the back door (coyotes).

All of my kids know what they can do, and they do not mess with them at all. I do get frequent requests to go shooting. We have a short range on our property, but they do not touch without permission. This is a line they know cannot ever be crossed.

I wish I could make them as serious about school work!

--------------------
~tough as nails yet nice as pie~
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - and sometimes a scar.
"and don't threaten anyone with your pants today!" - Frog_Feathers
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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But what about the miscreants/friends that they bring home? You have mentioned that your daughter had befriended a bad kid in the past, what about securing the guns from those other kids?

--------------------
I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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daisyslegs
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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We take the time needed for those things. 90% of the time we don't have other kids in our house, we're way out in the middle of nowhere so it's easier for her to go home from school with someone and I pick her up. If there is something different going on, we take the time to put them away.

I consider us very responsible gun owners.

--------------------
~tough as nails yet nice as pie~
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - and sometimes a scar.
"and don't threaten anyone with your pants today!" - Frog_Feathers
daisys does Myspace

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Duff Yazzie-Stephens
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
quote:
Originally posted by Duff Yazzie-Stephens:
not only ink pens can be weapons, consider spraying them with bug killer, spraying them in the eyes with toilet cleaner, Stab him.her with a letter opener, or a knife, even a butterknife with the proper force can kill someone. Not JUST guns kill people,

Yes, but you can't butter bread with a gun. [Smile]
I stand by what I posted, theres no need for you to be inmature, and trying to antaganize me like a little kid. Grow up
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Noemi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
Aren't you religious? If you are, aren't you suppose to trust and have faith that you'll be taken care of?

I'm not really sure what you might be trying to get at here since very few religions teach anything like that.

Noemi "my gods expect me to be able to take care of myself"

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Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
My blog, no guarantees about witty or intelligent content. My current projects.
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CannonFodder Global Trotter
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
quote:
Originally posted by Duff Yazzie-Stephens:
not only ink pens can be weapons, consider spraying them with bug killer, spraying them in the eyes with toilet cleaner, Stab him.her with a letter opener, or a knife, even a butterknife with the proper force can kill someone. Not JUST guns kill people,

Yes, but you can't butter bread with a gun. [Smile]
I wouldn't butter bread with my ka-bar. It IS handy for alot of other tool-like functions though.

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"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Duff Yazzie-Stephens:
quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
quote:
Originally posted by Duff Yazzie-Stephens:
not only ink pens can be weapons, consider spraying them with bug killer, spraying them in the eyes with toilet cleaner, Stab him.her with a letter opener, or a knife, even a butterknife with the proper force can kill someone. Not JUST guns kill people,

Yes, but you can't butter bread with a gun. [Smile]
I stand by what I posted, theres no need for you to be inmature, and trying to antaganize me like a little kid. Grow up
It's called lightening the mood. Whenever a discussion gets a little too intense most of us try to joke around a bit.

ETA: see above post...

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Blue:
quote:
I don't entertain thoughts of anyone coming into my home to do me or mine harm. I take, as mentioned, reasonable precautions, and then forget about it. I don't believe anyone is going to come harm me. I don't have the fear that anyone is going to come harm me. Odds are in my favor, that they won't.
This is more or less the exact same statement I have heard from all but about 3 of my home invasion victims. People who have guns for self protection are no more fearful than people who buckle up when driving. I certainly don't get in my car thinking "Oh my God, I'm gonna get into an accident today, oh this is gonna be bad" I get in, click my seatbelt and go on my way unafraid. I just take this simple precaution so that SHOULD I get in a wreck, I have more odds in my favor. Exactly the same mentality for those with guns for self protection. SHOULD somebody break into my house, more odds are in my favor.
Thank you for responding. I was wondering if you were going to show up. I think you may have a completely different viewpoint and approach because you have directly put yourself in danger by virtue of your occupation. I appreciate that and I thank you for it also.

However, putting on a seatbelt is akin to locking your doors, no more, no less. You would need mines of some sort extended from your car that would blow up if someone came too close in order for the comparison to work. I'm sorry, but if I get in an accident, my seatbelt is not going to strike out at the one that caused it.

Thank you to those that responded to me. Now, off to work.

--------------------
Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
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AAMAH

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
However, putting on a seatbelt is akin to locking your doors, no more, no less. You would need mines of some sort extended from your car that would blow up if someone came too close in order for the comparison to work. I'm sorry, but if I get in an accident, my seatbelt is not going to strike out at the one that caused it.

Do you realize that this makes no sense at all? Locking doors is a passive protection. A firearm is an active protection. But why you are assuming an active protection is more paranoid than passive is confusing to the rest of us.

pinqy

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Dark Blue
The First USA Noel


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quote:
If they really want to protect themselves, why not, upon coming across an intruder, take a stance, aim your weapon, and shout "freeze!" or "drop your weapon!" If part of their training isn't about disarming someone, maybe it should be.
I would give opportunity for someone to comply, but if they come into my house with a weapon in hand, that will be a very short opportunity, and one they should immediately take if they value not being shot. Your comment on disarming- I am trained to deal with a large variety of situations, and people with various weapons. Disarming someone, while it looks cool in movies, is not a reality. If you have a weapon we (boys in blue) will challenge you with deadly force, be it a gun a knife a baseball bat etc. We will not attempt Jackie Chan style disarming moves because in real life they just flat don't work. A large percent of the population fail to realize this. In fact the only time I can think of that a disarming would be attempted is if their were several of us well trained, and one were able to use a taser. This of course would only be tried if the weapon the person had were a close range weapon such as a knife or bat, and even then, while one is deploying the taser, several others will be backing them up with their guns drawn just in case. If the constantly training people, who are expected to deal with these situations on a common basis are not training to disarm, then why would Joe Citizen protecting his family be expected too?

quote:
So do people who have guns in their home for protection keep them loaded in their bedside table? I've always been led to believe that that's about the last thing a responsible gun owner would do.

My gun is alway one of three places- 1) On my person, 2)Locked in my safe, 3)On my bedside table.

While it spends the vast majority of its time on my person, at night it does stay on my bedside table. In my house there are me, my wife (who is an advid shooter herself and quite capable with a firearm)and my dogs (who as of yet have expressed no interest in handling my guns) It is locked away when I am not wearing it, and when I am not asleep. So far there are no little ones in the house with prying fingers to explore it in the night. When that changes then so will how it is kept at night, but it will still be kept.

quote:
Aren't you religious? If you are, aren't you suppose to trust and have faith that you'll be taken care of?
I am Christian by faith. I don't remeber exactly where, I'll look it up, but Jesus tells his disciples that as they go out to spread the word that they should take with them a sword, and that if they did not have one, they should sell their clothes to get one. I don't find the idea of defending yourself one to be against my faith, and it is clear to me that my protection is in part in my hands as well.

quote:
Thank you for responding. I was wondering if you were going to show up.
I posted earlier on either page 4 or 5 if you missed it.
quote:
I think you may have a completely different viewpoint and approach because you have directly put yourself in danger by virtue of your occupation. I appreciate that and I thank you for it also.
Thank you.

DB

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I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf. -- On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs by LTC. Dave Grossman, USA (Ret)

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Jenn
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by Island Manta:
quote:
Originally posted by Jenn:

FWIW, this is all very hypothetical for me. I don't have any weapons in my home (snip)

Jenn, actually, I'm absolutely certain you do. Do you own any ink pens? knives? A knife is certainly readily known as a weapon, but an ink pen isn't.
Well, obviously. I know that anything can be a weapon. I meant I don't have anything in my home that is intented to be or has a primary purpose of being a weapon, such as a gun (which I thought was implied, this being a gun thread and all).

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"You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!"

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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For people that keep weapons handy in case of home invasion, do you practice what you will do?
This is not meant to be snarky or a joke, I think the only way to get ready for these kinds of things is to rehearse scenarios, and I am curious to see how much actual foreplanning goes into what you will do if you are a victim of home invasion. I think being ready has more to do with mindset than with the gun being loaded and ready. Especially people with children do you do emergency drills if not for home invasion, at least for things that are more likely to affect you? Weather, earthquakes, accidents etc.

--------------------
I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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Gale
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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If there were an intruder in my apartment and he were bent on doing me harm, chances are he'd do it. I'm a sound sleeper with a sleeping disorder and a herd of elephants could come through my place and I wouldn't know until one of them sat on me. If someone broke into my apartment armed with a gun, I'm a goner.

I have a very small apartment with no back door. If I were awake and in bed or bath, there is no where to escape to.

I honestly don't think I could shoot a person, but I wouldn't have any compunction whatsoever about beating the devil out of someone who was intent on doing me bodily harm. And I have been the victim of a violent crime by my then-husband. Believe me, I don't care how big you are, you aren't coming out unscathed because I won't go through that again and I don't fight fair. That's just one of my quirks. I won't shoot you, but I'll beat you to a pulp with a lead pipe, given half a chance.

And in spite of all that, I am a handgun owner. I shudder at the idea of hunting. I couldn't begin to do it. I'm not crazy about rifles with my short arms, and there's no finesse in a shotgun. I truly like going out to the range and plugging away at a target with a .38.

I don't consider myself even remotely paranoid. I walk at night by myself all the time. I lock my doors. I know who's on the other side before I open the door, day or night. (Ask the nice policeman who was sent to my apt. by mistake and I wouldn't open the door til I was sure it was a policman since I had just gotten out of the shower. That was fun.)

Interestingly, I know lots of gun owners. The only time the idea of shooting an intruder comes up is when people opposed to the idea of gun ownership talk about guns.

Oh well.

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daisyslegs
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by rhianukah and moi:
For people that keep weapons handy in case of home invasion, do you practice what you will do?
This is not meant to be snarky or a joke, I think the only way to get ready for these kinds of things is to rehearse scenarios, and I am curious to see how much actual foreplanning goes into what you will do if you are a victim of home invasion. I think being ready has more to do with mindset than with the gun being loaded and ready. Especially people with children do you do emergency drills if not for home invasion, at least for things that are more likely to affect you? Weather, earthquakes, accidents etc.

I don't think practice is the word, especially because you never know what scenario will happen. I have of course thought about it; along with the knowlege of what I am capable of doing I have thought about how to confront someone safely in my home. For us at night, it's simple. They do not come up the stairs. If they insist after being verbally warned they will be shot, they will be trapped in a stairwell, no way but down would be their best bet.

Downstairs, there are two options, the kitchen and the livingroom. That opens up a lot more possibilities.

--------------------
~tough as nails yet nice as pie~
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - and sometimes a scar.
"and don't threaten anyone with your pants today!" - Frog_Feathers
daisys does Myspace

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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While you never know what the exact scenarion will be, there are a few basics: Attack from the front or attack from the back. Do you practice getting the gun down from the top of the refrigertor quickly and quietly? Do your kids have safe spots that they are supposed to go hide and get down in if a signal is given? Do you have a signal?
BTW I'm not really paranoid, I grew up with these things so they seem normal to me. I even had an out of state contact number for earthquake information relay growing up because in-state phone connections might have problems but in most cases one would be able to call out of state.

--------------------
I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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A friend of mine once defended his home from an intruder -- with a replica (but functional!) Frankish war axe.

The intruder was a drugged-out weirdo who was going down the hallway of an apartment building and randomly kicking open doors. My friend heard the ruckus, grabbed up his axe, and was ready.

He brandished the axe. The weirdo goggled at it and moved on to the next door.

Silas

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
quote:
Originally posted by First of Blue:
In the event of a break in, I will be prepared to use my weapon.

In the event of a break-in, chances are you won't even be home.
Incorrect. I work evenings. The vast majority of break-ins take place during the hours shortly after I get home (and before I go to sleep.) Additionally, my fiancee, being partially disabled, is always home.

quote:
You may not realize it, but by having the weapons you do, in your house, you may be increasing the odds that your place will be broken into.
Neither statistics nor anecdotal evidence supports this conclusion. Studies have shown that criminals are up to 80% less likely to break into a residence when they believe the resident may be armed. The number is highest in areas where it is permissible to use lethal force to defend both person and property.

Anecdotally, I can tell you that I lived in a rural area for 30 years. At one point, there was a minor crime spree where some individuals were backing up to farmhouses in the middle of the day and cleaning them out. Everyone in the area knew my father was a gun collector and shooting enthusiast. And yet, although houses all around us were burgled, we were not. They knew it was not worth the risk.

quote:
How many weapons do you own? No, not just guns. Any ole weapons will do. How many?
This is the wrong question, but I will answer it: I probably have a hundred things I could use as an improvised weapon. A staff, a kitchen knife, a mag-lite, an iron, super-glue, spray oven-cleaner.

Now, the right question: what is the most EFFECTIVE weapon I have, which gives me the maximum offensive/defensive capability with the minimum risk to myself/my guest/my property?

My gun. It's the only RANGED weapon I own. That means I can use it at a distance instead of hand-to-hand, making it far less likely that it could be wrested from my grip and used against me (unlike most of the other items.) It's the weapon with the most stopping power. (And of all my weapons, it's the one I am most skilled at using.)

It is mind-numbingly STUPID to suggest that I resist an intruder on "equal" terms. Never bring a knife to a gunfight. Whenever possible, bring a gun to a knife fight.

quote:
Anyone else noticing a pattern here? Are our shooters just extraordinarily good, or what is it? What if the burglar is an excellent shot?
Actually, yes, I am a very good shot, and I can say this without bragging. I have been practicing regularly for a quarter-century, under the tutelage of two veterans. I have practiced with stationary and moving targets. If I desired a career in law enforcement, I suspect that passing marksmanship requirements would not be a substantial hurdle (although other things would).

The odds of a burglar having my level of skill are not significant.

Any other questions?

{Edited to delete "silly" before "questions." In all honesty, there are actually good questions.}

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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an Em Dash of sugar
Xboxing Day


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
A friend of mine once defended his home from an intruder -- with a replica (but functional!) Frankish war axe.

The intruder was a drugged-out weirdo who was going down the hallway of an apartment building and randomly kicking open doors. My friend heard the ruckus, grabbed up his axe, and was ready.

He brandished the axe. The weirdo goggled at it and moved on to the next door.

Silas

So I might get a chance to use my (unsharpened but full-size and scary-looking) sword, then! I keep it in my place for decoration, but I've always thought it might have other uses... [Wink]

ETA: I'm not reading the other 7 pages of this topic, so I have nothing relevant to say...carry on.

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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
he only time I lambast anyone is when they can't keep their satisfaction of someone that "deserved" it getting what came to them, that they repeat it over and over to people that are mourning a victim.

This did not happen in the other thread and you "lambasted." This entire thread exists because of it.


No one, at any point, said:

- they were excited about killing
- they look forward to killing
- that they are satisfied that anyone has died
- they would not confront first, THEN shoot the intruder.
- they keep guns for no other purpose than to take lives.
- that they are paranoid, irrisponsible "trigger happy" gun owners.
- that they take the responsibility of owning a gun lightly.
- that they are terrified of break-ins and sleep with their weapon under their pillow


Not only are those horses dead, but, no one shot them first. They may have died of exhaustion, having run the same laps for 6+ pages.


Rhi said:

quote:
For people that keep weapons handy in case of home invasion, do you practice what you will do?

And

quote:
Attack from the front or attack from the back. Do you practice getting the gun down from the top of the refrigertor quickly and quietly? Do your kids have safe spots that they are supposed to go hide and get down in if a signal is given? Do you have a signal?
This is definitely thought provoking and I think you have a good point. Even if everyone in the house is trained in firearm safety, it wouldn't be a bad idea to act out a scenerio and practice it (squirt guns?) rather than crossing your fingers and hoping it all plays out well. Especially when there is more than one person in the household.

A spouse or child may move into the line of fire unwittingly if they're scared/panicky and don't know what to do.

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abby 68
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Just a general question for any of the Police Officers on the board, would you recommend using a Air Taser for home defense?

With proper training of course which is available at the local gun range from police officers certified in its use (according to the ad).

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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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I saw "air" and thought "airhorn" and then thought "I wonder what would happen if you blasted one of those at someone..."

You'd have something on startle-factor, at least.

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Island Manta
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Jenn:
Well, obviously. I know that anything can be a weapon. I meant I don't have anything in my home that is intented to be or has a primary purpose of being a weapon, such as a gun (which I thought was implied, this being a gun thread and all).

I wasn't trying to be snarky at all - I think you know me well enough to know that - I was trying to illustrate a point...many normal things within a home can be used as a weapon - not just guns...but...after all, this is a gun thread [Wink] ...As far as I'm concerned a gun makes me feel better about my personal safety - and as soon as I can arrange it, I will have more training in unconvrntional means of defence....thanks to my boss. He is an Akido sensei, and thoroughly schooled in defence...and it's training. Well worth the effort, IMNSHO [Smile] .

quote:
Originally posted by megaira:
I saw "air" and thought "airhorn" and then thought "I wonder what would happen if you blasted one of those at someone..."

You'd have something on startle-factor, at least.

One of the things my -ex (and my father) kept telling me...shoot anything indoors, and it will most likely confuse an intruder - an airhorn would not be an exception. My -ex would have to be out of town with his job anywhere from a weekend to a month...when he left for amonth, I would load the shotgun with 00 buck, leave the spacer out, and have it on safe...right by my head when I was in bed. We HAD no neighbours within sight of the house, much anyone who would hear a gunshot should one happen. At the time, I was wearing glasses, and would have had to reach for them before aiming a handgun. That was not the case with the shotgun. My ex kept insisting that I keep a handgun by the bed in case of an intruder...I was more comfy with the idea of a shotgun (considering I was better than HIM with a shotgun...surprising considering his track record with military weapons), as I wouldn't have to take the extra affort of putting on my glasses to aim in the general direction of the bedroom door (or window) to shoot. The sights on it I had practiced with - sans glasses - and did OK...Not great...but considering I was 20/4000+ without my glasses...all was good.

As for now, I sleep with my flare gun on the nightstand....and if I happen to hear shots from down the hill (happens about every 2 or 3 weeks - (Bovoni is not a nice area) it will be with me ON the bed, within reach of my sleeping hand. A 3 second flare can do enough damage....

Enough for now...'tis late, and I'm ready for sleep.

All in all, a realtively coherent discussion, considering the topic - thanks to all for keeping cool heads [Smile]

Oh yeah - Deep Blue - I wish you worked down here...by all accounts the VIs need 200 more officers than we currently have...and half them are 'on the take' or so over-worked that they let even the littelest things slide...so thanks for protecting those you live with [Smile]

-k 'sleeping head'

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"You never know when you will be attacked by a wild tortilla" - José Zavala
"Happiness isn't happiness without a violin playing goat"
Be good and you will be lonesome

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Dark Blue
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Just a general question for any of the Police Officers on the board, would you recommend using a Air Taser for home defense?
My personal opinion is if you want to use a taser then use this one. I would say this is a viable option for those who want to protect without using lethal force, but realize that these arn't fool proof. Two people on my squad are on the injured list right now because the taser failed....twice. The person was hit and didn't really care. When we use them, especially against someone with a weapon, we don't deploy it unless there is someone with a lethal force option ready. Basically somebody has a gun drawn at the time this is being deployed just in case.

My number one piece of advise when you determine what you will use is to pick something you are comfortable with and practice with it a lot. IF you are not comfortable with a gun then please dont own one with protection in mind. IF you don't practice then please dont plan on using it. WHatever you use you should be highly proficent with it and know it inside and out before placing it in your home protection system. Be it a gun, taser, knife, bat, or escape plan.

--------------------
I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf. -- On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs by LTC. Dave Grossman, USA (Ret)

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by megaira:
quote:
he only time I lambast anyone is when they can't keep their satisfaction of someone that "deserved" it getting what came to them, that they repeat it over and over to people that are mourning a victim.

This did not happen in the other thread and you "lambasted." This entire thread exists because of it.


No one, at any point, said:

- they were excited about killing
- they look forward to killing
- that they are satisfied that anyone has died
- they would not confront first, THEN shoot the intruder.
- they keep guns for no other purpose than to take lives.
- that they are paranoid, irrisponsible "trigger happy" gun owners.
- that they take the responsibility of owning a gun lightly.
- that they are terrified of break-ins and sleep with their weapon under their pillow


Not only are those horses dead, but, no one shot them first. They may have died of exhaustion, having run the same laps for 6+ pages.

Only one of these statements is indicative of anything I said or implied. But, considering your tirade of half-truths, assumptions, jumping to conclusions and out and out lies [strike that. Not lies. Bullshit, stories, characterizations of how I would or would not react to her BS, but never lies], directed at me, I'm not surprised. If you can't quote me directly, and respond reasonably to what you're quoting, then don't bother replying to me at all, megaira. In re-reading your attacks in the other thread, I wonder you aren't ashamed enough to just stay away from me altogether.

Sadly enough when someone, in discussing a shooting death, remarks repeatedly that they'd have shot them too, close after remarking that if someone comes in their house, they will be killed, I do see that as some sort of satisfaction with the death. If you don't then good for you. I wasn't alone in reading it that way.

I had to insist to you in the other thread that I do not think you target only me, then you came back and implied that I said you hunt people down. I just want to take this opportunity to say, that I don't believe you target me or any other one person. I don't believe you hunt anyone down. I do think that sometimes you come into a thread with all your buttons out, ready to fire. So don't accuse me of overreacting again, megaira. You blew me out of the water. You are the queen of overreacting. Just because you do it cleverly, doesn't diminish the effect.

tag Thankfully I was wearing my parachute at the time! [Smile] urit

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Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
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AAMAH

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Only one of these statements is indicative of anything I said or implied.
You outright stated or strongly implied all of these (though you never used the phrase "trigger happy") in this thread alone. Would you like the quotations?

pinqy

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Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Sure, pinqy. Fire away.

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Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
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AAMAH

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Ok:
quote:
My initial gripe was not only about gun ownership, but the type of mentality that finds satisfaction in a person being killed, and further contends they would do the same, even posed in a way to that makes one (at least this one!) think they relish the thought, look forward to their own day of glory.
quote:
Being so in fear for your safety that you can't possibly consider not having a gun is another. I also see a big difference between owning a gun that you use for sport, and owning a gun with which you plan to kill someone.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Oualawouzou:
I cannot feel much pity for anybody getting killed while performing something illegal that made another citizen feel threatened for his or his family's immediate safety. *shrug*

How about glee? Can you feel exuberant?
quote:
The things that concern me today are 1) People expressing satisfaction that someone is killed and 2) The fear that drives people to keep guns specifically for the purpose of shooting other people, in their home.
quote:
I'm trying to come to grips with people who have as their first plan of action, should someone be, or they think someone is, in their house, to shoot first, ask questions later.
quote:
People being so afraid of whatever it is they think is out to get them, that they must keep deadly weapons in their home, particularly weapons whose only purpose is to kill people.
quote:
If they really want to protect themselves, why not, upon coming across an intruder, take a stance, aim your weapon, and shout "freeze!" or "drop your weapon!"
Now, you didn't specifically refer to any particular poster, but you did make these claims about those who keep firearms for home protection (which would include snopesters posting) but these claims were not based on anything anyone actually said, only your interpretation even after direct refutation.

pinqy

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Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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daisyslegs
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Only one of these statements is indicative of anything I said or implied. But, considering your tirade of half-truths, assumptions, jumping to conclusions and out and out lies, directed at me, I'm not surprised. If you can't quote me directly, and respond reasonably to what you're quoting, then don't bother replying to me at all, megaira. In re-reading your attacks in the other thread, I wonder you aren't ashamed enough to just stay away from me altogether.
This is in fact, incorrect. No where did I see Megaira lie, jump to any conclusions, give any half truths at all. Actually, I though she was being very rational in her dissagreement with your very emotional tirade of half-truths, assumptions, jumping to conclusions and out and out lies, directed at me.

I did not see her attack you per say, but dissagree with you and try to call you out on the emotional end and into the rational discussion.

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For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - and sometimes a scar.
"and don't threaten anyone with your pants today!" - Frog_Feathers
daisys does Myspace

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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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(ETA -once again I fail to hit "refresh" before posting. Sorry if I reiterate what either of you have said, pinqy and Daisy)


quote:
Only one of these statements is indicative of anything I said or implied.
Only one?

me:
quote:

- they were excited about killing
- they look forward to killing
- that they are satisfied that anyone has died

you:
quote:

My initial gripe was not only about gun ownership, but the type of mentality that finds satisfaction in a person being killed, and further contends they would do the same, even posed in a way to that makes one (at least this one!) think they relish the thought, look forward to their own day of glory.

me:
quote:
- they would not confront first, THEN shoot the intruder.
you
quote:

I'm trying to come to grips with people who have as their first plan of action, should someone be, or they think someone is, in their house, to shoot first, ask questions later.

quote:

I just want people to examine why they are so all-fired ready to kill. If they really want to protect themselves, why not, upon coming across an intruder, take a stance, aim your weapon, and shout "freeze!" or "drop your weapon!"

quote:
They're going to shoot to kill. Disarming doesn't even seem an option, and is even viewed as stupidity.
me:
quote:

- they keep guns for no other purpose than to take lives.

you

quote:
2) The fear that drives people to keep guns specifically for the purpose of shooting other people, in their home.
quote:

People being so afraid of whatever it is they think is out to get them, that they must keep deadly weapons in their home, particularly weapons whose only purpose is to kill people.

me:
quote:

- that they are paranoid, irrisponsible "trigger happy" gun owners.

and:

- that they are terrified of break-ins and sleep with their weapon under their pillow


Ugh, I spelled irresponsible wrong.

you
quote:
I was talking about people being so afraid they feel they need a gun for protection,
From thread 1:
quote:

Because everyday people are breaking into your house to rape you, or your wife, or to kidnap or dismember your children. You people are gun-happy sick puppies, I'll tell you.[snip] But, you should be ashamed moreso because you're so damn scared. If you weren't living in fear, then why would you find it necessary to have a gun and be ready to shoot?[snip]
Just who I want to live next door to, a bunch of damn paranoids with guns! That's just great.

me:
quote:
- that they take the responsibility of owning a gun lightly.
Implied throughout nearly all of your posts w/trigger happy references and the continued ranting that people are so ready and fired up to take lives.


You:
quote:
But, considering your tirade of half-truths, assumptions, jumping to conclusions and out and out lies, directed at me, I'm not surprised.
Wow, I'd love a better explanation of this, partiularily the "lies and half truths" part of it. If you're calling me a liar, Tag, you should probably clarify it so you don't become one yourself.


I understand you dislike guns, I understand that you *don't* understand the mindset of people who keep guns for self protection.

No one is going to argue that people like the ones you're describing exist, the problem is, they're not here (or admitting it -and why would they?). Because of this, you had no real valid reason to "lambast" anyone in the other thread other than what you assumed and decided for yourself was true - and later it was pointed out that your assumption was incorrect, but instead you're still trying to justify that to the bitter end and it simply will not work.

We all agree - you, I, and everyone else, I'm sure, that there is a ghostlike third party who is an irresponsible gun owner. They're not here personally but *rubs crystal ball* they're out there and goddamit, this thread will effect them, I'm sure.


quote:
If you can't quote me directly, and respond reasonably to what you're quoting, then don't bother replying to me at all, megaira.
Oy, there's no pleasing you. You snarked in the last thread about the quoting and replying, and now you demand it.

quote:
In re-reading your attacks in the other thread, I wonder you aren't ashamed enough to just stay away from me altogether.
Aw, because I am as fluffy and sweet as you are?

We keep coming back to a reiterated theme: what you hate about me, are behaviors you exhibit but apparantly don't, apparantly, see.


quote:
Sadly enough when someone, in discussing a shooting death, remarks repeatedly that they'd have shot them too,
At the time, she was referring to the situation of having an armed intruder in the garage. I'm sorry that because she didn't sit down and say she'd blow kisses at him equates to her dancing on his grave.

quote:
close after remarking that if someone comes in their house, they will be killed, I do see that as some sort of satisfaction with the death. If you don't then good for you. I wasn't alone in reading it that way.
It is interesting to me you're still clinging to this and referring to Daisy indirectly when she's spoken directly to you.

Not only this, but, she said right there in the post it was horrible, insensitive and rude. How much more humbling of herself is necessary?

quote:
I had to insist to you in the other thread that I do not think you target only me, then you came back and implied that I said you hunt people down.
No, you have it backwards.

you:
quote:
Your little spate has nothing to do with what I posted about, it's a play at humiliation
me:
quote:
Right, because, I just hunt you down and rag on you at every opportunity.
you
quote:

Oh my, no, meg. I don't think you hunt me down. And I've never insisted I'm the sole target of your humilation games. We've all seen you play them over and over. But, not only with me. I would never consider myself that special. I have to say you're pretty good about spreading it around.

Back to the present:
quote:
I just want to take this opportunity to say, that I don't believe you target me or any other one person. I don't believe you hunt anyone down. I do think that sometimes you come into a thread with all your buttons out, ready to fire.
No, what you've implied is that I "spread it out" and bully people randomly so that it's less noticeable.

Because, we all know I'm ever so subtle when I bite someone's ass. I mean, no one would notice, I think I cover it up pretty well! Gee, you don't think anyone has noticed, do you? *paranoid*

I always figured I was pretty up front about it and have discussed the issues both on and off the board. You are absolutely welcome to start a thread or poll discussing the pros and cons of meg.

And, fwiw, a year or two ago you'd have been absolutely right in your assessment.

quote:
So don't accuse me of overreacting again, megaira. You blew me out of the water.
You received back exactly what you dished out in my first post. The following two went overboard and I've acknowledged this.

quote:
You are the queen of overreacting. Just because you do it cleverly, doesn't diminish the effect.
[Roll Eyes] I'm so terribly deep and subtle and clever. Gosh, they'll *never* figure me out.

quote:

tag Thankfully I was wearing my parachute at the time! urit

I suppose my cleverness has failed me, I've missed the reference.
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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by daisyslegs and snowballs:
I did not see her attack you per say, but dissagree with you and try to call you out on the emotional end and into the rational discussion.

And you read the whole thread? Well, I suppose it's only natural that you'd be biased, considering I didn't keep it a secret that I was unhappy with what you had posted. Let me jog your memory a bit.

quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
quote:
Originally posted by megaira:
quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
Attacked? Sorry, but what I'm feeling is not attacked.

I see. I have most certianly misjudged you. I am impressed, you must have skin like an elephant. You are a worthy opponant.
I didn't say you weren't attacking me. I'll give credit where credit is due. What I mean is, having seen you do this to so many different people over the years, the most I can muster is amused. Sorry.
Not that it matters. I took it in relatively good humor. [Smile] But, let's call a spade a spade, eh?

--------------------
Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
---
AAMAH

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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Sorry about this Daisy, but, I didn't say I didn't "attack" you, Tag. You said you didn't feel attacked...but then you say I blew you out of the water. Makes sense.

Let's talk about those spades...you were busy calling me a liar?

I'm wondering, too, if you generally accuse people of being bullies who go around humiliating people when you're in good humor. My goodness, what you must be like when roused.

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daisyslegs
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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I stand corrected on the attacking issue.
However, I stand on the rest.

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~tough as nails yet nice as pie~
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - and sometimes a scar.
"and don't threaten anyone with your pants today!" - Frog_Feathers
daisys does Myspace

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CannonFodder Global Trotter
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Just to jump in, about the only thing I've drawn from the present argument is that Tag doesn't like people who like guns (to steal shamlessly from The West Wing). If so, fine. We probably wouldn't like her either. Doesn't make her a bad person. Folks are different, and you can't get along with everyone.

--------------------
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."

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