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Author Topic: Guns - can the topic be discussed rationally?
B Hamilton
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quote:
Originally posted by Prussian Blue:
What was the significance of the "200 years" part? An unpleasant and irrelevant reference to something...


Not quite 200 years: 1821 to be exact when Mexico which also included Arizona was granted independence from Spain.

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Prussian Blue
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OK I'm clued in, but I still say it's unpleasant and completely irrelevant.

And it's not racist to say that someone's opinion is less valid because they are Spanish than if they'd been American?

So I can automatically dismiss anything Bug Muldoon says because "Belgium doesn't rule Wolverhampton"? Where did Jaime ever infer that people from Arizona have to do what Spanish people tell them to do?

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megaira
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quote:
And it's not racist to say that someone's opinion is less valid because they are Spanish than if they'd been American?
It's just dumb, is what it is.

John hasn't posted to the thread anymore, so please, let's stop beating the racism pony, it's mush now and I didn't even get some finely sliced equine sashimi off of it.

Back to guns, please?

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BeachLife
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I'm jumping in way late. I don't know how I missed this thread before now, but I have been busy with Thanksgiving and all.

Honestly though discussion of gun control in America is a completely different discussion from gun control in just about any other country. There are already millions and millions of guns in 'circulation' if you will. Short of house to house searchs there is no way to rid the people of their weapons. There certainly is not legal way to do it.

To bring other countires into the discussion without considering this point is meaningless. We will never have a situation where there are few guns to be controlled. We will never have a situation where criminals can't get their hands on guns.

Assuming that there are plenty of guns in circulation, what is the best thing to do?

Beach...it isn't strict gun control...Life!

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Silas Sparkhammer
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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
Assuming that there are plenty of guns in circulation, what is the best thing to do?

Limit the damage. For instance, I favor limitations on the manufacture of guns that have certain physical characteristics. I would also favor requiring a "collectors license" for anyone who wants to own more than four guns.

(Such a collector poses a risk to the community should he be robbed. I want him to demonstrate that he takes extra care to keep his guns locked away.)

Laws against machine guns seem to be working; we don't see many Tommygun murders these days.

By the way, I used to be one of those folks who wanted a full ban on all guns; thoughtful and rational discussions like this one were what changed my mind.

Silas

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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You knew it had to happen eventually...

He's BAAAAAACK!

(I feel that JS was rightly offended by JVS's blanket statement, for which JVS has apologized, and JS merely made an equally, yet differently, nasty retort. We should consider that particular matter settled.)

I am an armed citizen. With luck, my preparation will remain unnecessary forever. But I will not take that risk.

In the event of a break in, I will be prepared to use my weapon. I will not, however, until I know that my target is an intruder. Which means either identifying the location of all the people who should be in the house (easy, me and one other person) or visually seeing the intruder.

If the intruder is armed, they are a threat. They will likely die.

If unarmed, I will allow the intruder an opportunity to escape, assuming he isn't foolish enough to try to take anything else. He should consider himself lucky to be getting away alive. My TV is not a bonus prize.

I have heard the word "satisfaction" bandied about in this thread, and I think it's being mistakenly used for "refusing to be ashamed and horrified at the fact that I took a life." I will therefore remain "satisfied" that I adequately performed the task of defending myself, my loved ones, and my property rights.

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tagurit
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quote:
Originally posted by First of Blue:
In the event of a break in, I will be prepared to use my weapon.

In the event of a break-in, chances are you won't even be home. You may not realize it, but by having the weapons you do, in your house, you may be increasing the odds that your place will be broken into. How many weapons do you own? No, not just guns. Any ole weapons will do. How many?
quote:
If the intruder is armed, they are a threat. They will likely die.
Anyone else noticing a pattern here? Are our shooters just extraordinarily good, or what is it? What if the burglar is an excellent shot?

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Casey, making hot chocolate
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Um, Tag? Where the heck do you get the ability to notice from the street what houses have guns? What is a weapon? A gun? Tool. I've shot probably 20,000 rounds through mine, and all at paper targets. It's an effective hole punch. Knife? Tool and art. Ask a collector sometime about a knife collecting hobby, you'll be tied up for hours on end.

Is a weapon something you can kill with? How about a hammer? You could kill with it. Steak knife? Ditto. Baseball bat? Yep.

I would wager I could walk into your house today, Tag, and find hundreds of potential weapons. I know I can with mine. Careful what you ban, it may be something you want.

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tagurit
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Casey, surely you're not suggesting that I'm for banning guns? Uh, where did you get that? I'm wondering if people that keep guns in their homes consider that it could be attractive. Regardless, many guns that are out on the street get there from theft.

Assuming that it's true that most crime is committed against people known by the perpetrator, I imagine someone must know these weapons are there.

But, that statement of mine was really off the wall. By the same token, having a large screen tv makes yourself a target and/or increases the risk of burglary. What worries me is that if you keep guns, and your house is burgled, your guns are out on the street. Just wondering if anyone that keeps guns considers that. Though, I don't think it would stop anyone that wants a gun from keeping one. If their gun was stolen, they'd just get another.

ETA: I indicated earlier in this thread that I'm a second amendment supporter, with provisions. I'll plaster this statement on every page if I have to. I don't want to take your guns away from you! I'd be happy, however, if you decided you don't want them anymore.

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Casey, making hot chocolate
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No, I'm not saying you're for banning guns, but when you start listing the number of weapons, my mind went on a tangent of its own. Bad mind! Back in your box!

You know something? We have 3 guns in the house. My mom and dad each own .22 pistols, and I've this ancient .22 rifle dating from the early 20s. Methinks it won't be too high on a criminal's "want list". [Wink]

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BeachLife
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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
Assuming that there are plenty of guns in circulation, what is the best thing to do?

Limit the damage. For instance, I favor limitations on the manufacture of guns that have certain physical characteristics. I would also favor requiring a "collectors license" for anyone who wants to own more than four guns.

(Such a collector poses a risk to the community should he be robbed. I want him to demonstrate that he takes extra care to keep his guns locked away.)

Laws against machine guns seem to be working; we don't see many Tommygun murders these days.

By the way, I used to be one of those folks who wanted a full ban on all guns; thoughtful and rational discussions like this one were what changed my mind.

Silas

I think we've had this argument enough to agree on some common ground. I used to be on the opposite end of the spectrum from you, but I've come closer to the center as well, and for the same reasons, thoughtful and rational discussion.

I agree with a limit on capabilities. There is no need for a fully automatic weapons in protection of hunting. Certainly rocket launchers, RPGs and Bazookas (do they still call them that) are also a bad idea in the hands of the public.

Beach...still a member of the NRA...Life!

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Island Manta
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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:

What bothers me is that people are so afraid. Fear is the mind killer, someone said. [Smile] I believe it. Fear can strike people blind. Why do so many people have personal weapons in their homes? There aren't enough criminals out there to account for all the defense going on.

Paul Attredies: Dune. That's the quote you're looking for. A Bene Geserit saying, IIRC. And you're right - fear paralyzes people, which is why they take the proper training with their handgun of choice. I'm sorry to see that folks don't place training with these weapons in more of a spotlight. The individual posters that own guns have expressed they receive training and practice - but that's not the whole issue. I grew up in a home with many guns - handguns, rifles and shotguns. I was shown what they could do and admonished not to touch them, under pain of severe punishment. When I was old enough (in my father's eyes) I was allowed to begin shooting a .22 rifle. There were times, after I was a teenager, when my folks would be out for an evening and leave me in the house alone. I kept the doors locked, but was told that were there an intruder, to get the 410 shotgun (it was a single shot) and aim it in the general direction. Dad told me it would take out the whole window, so aiming wasn't an issue. We had some very questionable characters living across the street, and he never put it past them to try and cause harm to ourselves or our property. We didn't have 911 service at the time, so the local police dispatch service phone number was right by the phone. A call to them would be the first thing that would take place. Luckily, it was never an issue. They burned things in our yard (pinestraw piles as well as just setting the yard on fire, just for S&G) as well as shooting out street lights.

I learned how to handle and shoot a shotgun in my early 20s- then handguns in my early 30s. I had an excellent teacher - my ex-husband. He was military and qualified 'expert' with any weapon they put in his hands - M16, 9MM, and a 50Cal. I passed my concealed handgun permit class with flying colors thanks to him. I traveled a long, dark distance from work to home - after dark - and he wanted to make sure I would be safe. Luckily I never had to find out if I had the capacity to actually USE a weapon on anyone. I still wonder about that. I hear (antecdote coming!) that guns wrestled away from people are used on them more often than they use it on an attacker. I have no proof of that, though.

quote:
Originally posted by Jenn:

FWIW, this is all very hypothetical for me. I don't have any weapons in my home (snip)

Jenn, actually, I'm absolutely certain you do. Do you own any ink pens? knives? A knife is certainly readily known as a weapon, but an ink pen isn't. It can be used, with proper force, as a weapon. My current boss can show anyone how to use common items carried on one's person as weapons - hat pins, ink pens, etc. No one would be able to accuse you of using a weapon such as an ink pen with premeditation.

Where I live now, there is a constant threat of voilence on my person. I worry that someone will come in my sliding glass door. How do I choose to protect myself? Something that is very common to this island (which I have mentioned before) - a flare gun. If someone decides they want to walk all the way up my hill, walk around to the back of the house, then they are definately NOT welcome, and will suffer the consequences. Unfortunately crime on this island is under reported, as the police are totally ineffective. I like the idea of "Frenchie Justice" - do their own 'research' and the perpetrator will find themselves in a fishtrap as bait.

I refuse to be a victim. I am constantly on guard to anyone who could harm me. I stay away from areas that are unsafe if I am alone. If I am traveling alone, I will let someone know when I leave and when to expect me at my destination. Should I encounter difficulty, then I have a cell phone and I will call them. I walk with intention in other areas where I could encounter trouble. I always have my keys handy to use as a weapon (that's another handy one) should the need arise. Yes, I enjoy living here, but there are inherent risks, and I am not in genral a risk taker. I would feel more comfortable if I were allowed my own concealed weapon, preferably the one I carried stateside, but the laws here are clear. Unless I carry large amounts of cash, I am not qualified (which is totally contradictory to the laws as I researched them before I moved here, much to my dismay). Legal and practical application aside, I'm perfectly OK carrying my little flare gun. I can do plenty of damage with it.

As far as gun ownership - I think mandatory classes & training should go with it. If you leave it in a gun safe/lock box and never use it, it will be useless to you should you actually feel the need to use it. I feel the training I received (albeit not formal) was invaluable. I learned the proper handling as well as cleaning of my weapon of choice. Teaching kids the proper respect also goes a long way in keeping them away from potential harm from a firearm. What if "my" kid (not that I have any, this is a hypothetical) was at a friends home, and encountered a gun. If I were of the persuasion of "never in my home" then my child would have absolutely NO knowledge of the potential damage that could be caused. Curiosity might take over. I would be totally broken if my child, in their curiosity, would harm another person with said firearm. Knowledge is the KEY. Even if there were no guns in my home, I would feel totally irresponsible if 1) I didn't find out before hand the preferences of the parents homes they were visiting and 2) let them (aka my child/children) know that guns are NOT toys, and they need to stay away and respect other people's property and not bother them. I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but it's my opinion, FWIW.

Post subject to edit, as it wouldn't "preview"

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tagurit
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Manta, I was talking about people being so afraid they feel they need a gun for protection, with that quote.

I traveled a long dark distance from work to home, also, 73 miles one way. I didn't feel the need for a gun.

When my son was 12 or 13, I let him attend gun safety training, an NRA sponsored event. He's never fired a gun, but I wanted him to have some knowledge of them that I couldn't provide him. He enjoyed the class. Saturday, while over there for dinner, I brought up this gun discussion. He and his wife told me that one thing they plan to ask the parents of potential playmates for their children is "Do you own any guns? Do you keep guns in your house?"

My oldest brother was the only one that had any guns when I was living at home. He picked up hunting from our West Virginia uncles. I couldn't even tell you how many or what kind he had. I had no interest in guns. He gave one of his guns to our younger brother, taught him how to use it, took him hunting a few times. A few months after his 16th birthday, my little brother took his life with that gun.

Sorry, I just have no use for guns. I don't understand the attraction. I especially don't understand why so many people feel they need them for protection. And that's the fear I speak of. People being so afraid of whatever it is they think is out to get them, that they must keep deadly weapons in their home, particularly weapons whose only purpose is to kill people.

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Duff Yazzie-Stephens
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not only ink pens can be weapons, consider spraying them with bug killer, spraying them in the eyes with toilet cleaner, Stab him.her with a letter opener, or a knife, even a butterknife with the proper force can kill someone. Not JUST guns kill people,
Yes People kill people, usually its on the criminal mind to kill someone that is in their way of wanting to do intent to harm, ir. raping someone, breaking in and stealing stuff, killing pets etc. The criminal mind is so simple it is easy to read. That is why one must never put in the hands of someone else saying "what about shoooting to wound" this person may have a gun or something else as well, and hit YOU to the ground, the same effect, "hit the target till it drops" So here is my thoughts in a nutshell BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY!

thats all, now Im going to the music threads

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Finite Fourier Alchemy
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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
I agree with a limit on capabilities. There is no need for a fully automatic weapons in protection of hunting. Certainly rocket launchers, RPGs and Bazookas (do they still call them that) are also a bad idea in the hands of the public.

I think Bazookas would be legitimate collector's items, and I'm not terribly worried about people robbing banks or committing drive-bys with anti-tank weaponry. I think, given the extremely rare use of RPGs, grenade launchers, and fully-automatic assault rifles and full-sized submachine guns in various crimes, it's enough to regulate them, require expensive and difficult-to-obtain permits, and let that be enough.

The fact that such weapons are rare and extremely expensive seems to be enough to keep them out of criminal hands. That and the fact they aren't terribly useful for most criminal activities.

I'm more interested in using legislation to get rid of subcompact fully-automatic high-capacity handguns and submachine guns, especially those which are cheaply-made, highly inaccurate, and useless for anything but "point-and-spray" shooting. This tactic has (so far as I know) made a huge dent in the use of the TEC-9 in drive-by shootings, and hopefully the MAC-10 and other guns of this breed will suffer the same fate.

I am against feel-good legislation with names like "assault weapons ban" that ban guns that are not used in crimes. I am against gun legislation that is based on misunderstanding of how guns operate, how criminals operate, and what gun types and features are most closely-linked with crime.

I don't think guns are inherently good or evil. I think, generally, they have equal potential to protect the innocent and to harm the innocent.

I think it's in the best interest of society to promote the former and prevent the latter. I think the best way to do this is to require some level of education on gun safety and use for those people who desire a handgun for self-defense.

I'm against federal registration of handguns, but I think it would be reasonable to require licenses for posession of a handgun, which such requirements as initial training in safety, shooting, maintenence, and basics of home- and self-defense strategies, with emphasis on the local laws regarding such situations. Further, I think all people having a handgun license should be required to show some minimum level of proficiency at a shooting range at regular intervals - perhaps after some certain number of years.

I think guns are dangerous tools which, like automobiles, should require some level of regulation and proof of competency before being allowed to be used.

I don't think it's wise to treat all gun owners as irresponsible gun owners, and I don't think it's wise to demonize guns, or to in any way take a complex sociological problem (guns kill innocent people) and pretend it is due to a simple reason (guns are evil), which does not solve the original problem.

Alchemy

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tagurit
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quote:
Originally posted by Duff Yazzie-Stephens:
not only ink pens can be weapons, consider spraying them with bug killer, spraying them in the eyes with toilet cleaner, Stab him.her with a letter opener, or a knife, even a butterknife with the proper force can kill someone. Not JUST guns kill people,

Yes, but you can't butter bread with a gun. [Smile]

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Jaime Vargas Sanchez
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quote:
Originally posted by Prussian Blue:
And it's not racist to say that someone's opinion is less valid because they are Spanish than if they'd been American?

No, because we're not a race.

To imply that the phrase is racist is actually more racist tha the phrase itself. Every time one of you says "yes, it's racist" I feel like you think I'm not "white enough". Not that there would be anything wrong with that, but please.

Jaime

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Jaime Vargas Sanchez
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quote:
Originally posted by First of Blue:
(I feel that JS was rightly offended by JVS's blanket statement, for which JVS has apologized, and JS merely made an equally, yet differently, nasty retort. We should consider that particular matter settled.)

To finally settle it, my statement was because I felt hurt by the "you're spouting Hollywood BS" some posters in a row made, when I was asking an honest question, because I don't know how a gun works. Silas' response was the correct manner.

Jaime

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pinqy
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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
Manta, I was talking about people being so afraid they feel they need a gun for protection, with that quote.

This seems to be a running theme, Tag...your claim that people only have firearms for protection because they are afraid. I've never gotten that impression from any gun owners and I'm curious as to how you arrived at that conclusion.
quote:
Sorry, I just have no use for guns. I don't understand the attraction. I especially don't understand why so many people feel they need them for protection. And that's the fear I speak of People being so afraid of whatever it is they think is out to get them, that they must keep deadly weapons in their home, particularly weapons whose only purpose is to kill people.
Again, this is semi-contradictory. You're saying you don't understand why someone would want a gun for protection (which, by the way, is different from "need") yet you seem to automatically ascribe it to some kind of paranoia. Additionally, a gun's purpose is not to kill people...it is to expel a small piece of lead at high velocity. The target could be paper, a rat, a soda can, whatever. A gun doesn't feel less fulfilled in its purpose if it doesn't kill a person. And, while I'll have to dig up the stats, the most common result of a gun used for home protection is disuadement with no actual firing.

Ok, let's try this....you lock your house. You lock your car. You have no problem with alarm systems. If you're not afraid of someone breaking in, why do these things? I believe you said "reasonable precaution." In many cases these precautions will not be enough and many consider keeping a firearm to also be a reasonable precaution. You disagree, fine, just don't mischaracterize gun owners due to your bias.


pinqy

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Island Manta
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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
Manta, I was talking about people being so afraid they feel they need a gun for protection, with that quote.

I traveled a long dark distance from work to home, also, 73 miles one way. I didn't feel the need for a gun.

Regardless of what kind of fear - it's there. Good for you that you felt safe enough not to need any sort of protection. Before I carried a pistol I carried Mace. As I stated - I do not want to be a victim, so I tend to be proactive about my own safety. We had our home broken into, several others in the area were also burgeled - we felt it was justified.


quote:
When my son was 12 or 13, I let him attend gun safety training, an NRA sponsored event. He's never fired a gun, but I wanted him to have some knowledge of them that I couldn't provide him. He enjoyed the class. Saturday, while over there for dinner, I brought up this gun discussion. He and his wife told me that one thing they plan to ask the parents of potential playmates for their children is "Do you own any guns? Do you keep guns in your house?"

Good for you and good for them for being informed parents.

quote:
My oldest brother was the only one that had any guns when I was living at home. He picked up hunting from our West Virginia uncles. I couldn't even tell you how many or what kind he had. I had no interest in guns. He gave one of his guns to our younger brother, taught him how to use it, took him hunting a few times. A few months after his 16th birthday, my little brother took his life with that gun.

Fine about you not having an interest in guns. If your little brother hadn't has access to a gun, he would have most likely chosen another method of suicide. It just so happened that the gun was the tool he chose to use. We all know if someone in intent on suicide, they will use whatever method is available. I'm sorry you had to live through that. One of my best friends also committed suicide - with his service weapon. He was a Marine. Another friend in high school who didn't have access to guns hung himself in his closet.

quote:
Sorry, I just have no use for guns. I don't understand the attraction. I especially don't understand why so many people feel they need them for protection. And that's the fear I speak of. People being so afraid of whatever it is they think is out to get them, that they must keep deadly weapons in their home, particularly weapons whose only purpose is to kill people.

Fine - you don't understand the attraction. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to own them. Ownership is guaranteed by the Second Amendment. It was apparently important enough to the "Founding Fathers" for the citizens to own guns that it was the second thing mentioned.

As far as that fear - I'm so very glad you live in a safe area. There are people who don't and don't feel the need to carry a gun - that's fine. It's all about choice. I see potential threats every time I drive through Bovoni on my way to & from work. I read things in the paper every day about home invasions, attacks on people - any manner of crime (and if you read the linked article, you will see just how ineffective the police are down here, and how unsupportive the government is to change). I don't consider myself fearful or paranoid. I consider myself observant of my surroundings and I act accordingly. I refuse to be a victim. I have to admit I did feel safer where I used to live - but that didn't mean that I wasn't aware of my surroundings and making my person safe. Here it's just a little less safe. I still pay attention to people around me - not that I see everyone as a threat. I don't. There are certain things I have learned (on my own and with advice from others) to watch for. It hit home the night I was working in a store and I was robbed - not here, but back in SC. They had a weapon, that at the time looked like a gun. It turns out (after they were finally caught by the police) they were using a large lead pipe. In one of the stores that was robbed, they severely beat the cashier. I was lucky, I guess.

We'll just have to agree to disagree Tag. I hope your life continues to be safe and you never have to experience a threat to your person first hand. Your mind is made up and nothing will change it. Please don't lambast others for having a differing opinion, especially one that you can't understand.

-k

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Prussian Blue
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Jaime Vargas Sanchez:

To imply that the phrase is racist is actually more racist tha the phrase itself. Every time one of you says "yes, it's racist" I feel like you think I'm not "white enough". Not that there would be anything wrong with that, but please.
Jaime

Well in Britain an English person speaking disparagingly of the Welsh or Irish can be accused of racism, and they're a lot closer in skin colour (all bluey white!). So I use the word to mean prejudice against someone on the basis of their nationality. I wish I HAD some Mediterranean blood in me so I didn't burn so easy.
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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
Manta, I was talking about people being so afraid they feel they need a gun for protection, with that quote.

This seems to be a running theme, Tag...your claim that people only have firearms for protection because they are afraid. I've never gotten that impression from any gun owners and I'm curious as to how you arrived at that conclusion.
Because, over and over I hear people who have firearms for protection maintaining that if someone comes into their house to rob, rape or maim, them and theirs, they're ready for them, followed by their plans to shoot to kill.

Here's the thing: I don't entertain thoughts of anyone coming into my home to do me or mine harm. I take, as mentioned, reasonable precautions, and then forget about it. I don't believe anyone is going to come harm me. I don't have the fear that anyone is going to come harm me. Odds are in my favor, that they won't. So, naturally, when I hear, repeated over and over in this and other threads, people being ready with their guns for that imaginary foe that's going to break into their house and do them wrong, I see it as fear. What else could it be?
quote:
quote:
Sorry, I just have no use for guns. I don't understand the attraction. I especially don't understand why so many people feel they need them for protection. And that's the fear I speak of People being so afraid of whatever it is they think is out to get them, that they must keep deadly weapons in their home, particularly weapons whose only purpose is to kill people.
Again, this is semi-contradictory. You're saying you don't understand why someone would want a gun for protection (which, by the way, is different from "need") yet you seem to automatically ascribe it to some kind of paranoia. Additionally, a gun's purpose is not to kill people...it is to expel a small piece of lead at high velocity. The target could be paper, a rat, a soda can, whatever. A gun doesn't feel less fulfilled in its purpose if it doesn't kill a person. And, while I'll have to dig up the stats, the most common result of a gun used for home protection is disuadement with no actual firing.
1)I don't understand why people are so afraid that they must have guns in their home. 2)I suppose I'm referring to assault weapons and hand guns, guns that kill people as opposed to say, a hunting rifle. You do see the difference, don't you? 3) I'll wager the most common result of a gun used for home protection is someone in the home being hurt, or the gun being stolen, and now out on the street.

It would be nice to have numbers from an unbiased source.

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
Yes, but you can't butter bread with a gun. [Smile]

I'm almost certain that's not correct...

Silas (ew, messy!)

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Island Manta:
Fine about you not having an interest in guns. If your little brother hadn't has access to a gun, he would have most likely chosen another method of suicide. It just so happened that the gun was the tool he chose to use. We all know if someone in intent on suicide, they will use whatever method is available. I'm sorry you had to live through that. One of my best friends also committed suicide - with his service weapon. He was a Marine. Another friend in high school who didn't have access to guns hung himself in his closet.

Yeah. Don't worry, I'm not ascribing his suicide to the gun. I'm sure he would've done something else, had he not had access to a gun. However, it would've been much better for my baby sister to come home to him hanging in the closet than to hear a blast, run into his room, and find his brains splattered all over the wall.

Anyway, that was just an aside. I certainly wasn't blaming the gun for his death.

ETA:
quote:
Fine - you don't understand the attraction. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to own them. Ownership is guaranteed by the Second Amendment. It was apparently important enough to the "Founding Fathers" for the citizens to own guns that it was the second thing mentioned.
And I would never go so far as to say people shouldn't be allowed to own guns. What worries me is that people are so quick to say they're going to shoot someone with them.
quote:
As far as that fear - I'm so very glad you live in a safe area. There are people who don't and don't feel the need to carry a gun - that's fine. It's all about choice.
I live in a western suburb of Detroit. [lol]
quote:
I see potential threats every time I drive through Bovoni on my way to & from work. I read things in the paper every day about home invasions, attacks on people - any manner of crime (and if you read the linked article, you will see just how ineffective the police are down here, and how unsupportive the government is to change).
I'm sorry, but everytime I read something like this, I see it as fear. Aren't you religious? If you are, aren't you suppose to trust and have faith that you'll be taken care of? I'm an atheist and still I trust that I'll be ok. I figure, I can spend my life fearful for my life and have nothing ever happen to me, or I can trust that nothing will ever happen to me, and save myself a lifetime of anxiety. I choose the latter. But along those same lines I feel I should insert here that although I love the heck out of living, I'm not afraid of dying. And maybe that has something to do with it.
quote:
We'll just have to agree to disagree Tag. I hope your life continues to be safe and you never have to experience a threat to your person first hand. Your mind is made up and nothing will change it. Please don't lambast others for having a differing opinion, especially one that you can't understand.
Yes, I suppose we will, Manta. Your mind is made up and nothing will change it. The only time I lambast anyone is when they can't keep their satisfaction of someone that "deserved" it getting what came to them, that they repeat it over and over to people that are mourning a victim. I hold all human life dear. I'm sad to find it's not a universal truth.

I also hope your life continues to be safe and you never have to experience a threat to your person first hand, Manta.

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Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
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AAMAH

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ali_marea
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Tag, if you live in the suburbs of Detroit and you think that you're perfectly safe and that odds are you'll never be harmed, that's naive. Not secure.

Why do you think that people who own guns spend any more time worrying about being attacked or having their homes broken into than you do? Just because the precautions they take are not the same as yours doesn't mean they spend all their time worrying about it.

I have a gun for target shooting. There are no bullets in my home and never will be. (A Walther P-22 is not ideal for self-protection. [Wink] ) But let's just pretend, for a moment, that I do own a gun for self-protection. I would have bought it, educated myself on it, and then put it in a safe place. Beyond that I would not spend any more time worrying about being attacked or having my house broken into than you do. I just have an additional item to assure my personal safety.

That doesn't make me more worried than you. It doesn't make me afraid or paranoid. And I still haven't seen anyone say that they feel they "need" a gun. People here are saying they want one. They choose to own one. Not the same.

It seems you want to peg people as having certain feelings or motivations without actually listening to what they're saying. Or maybe without processing that information.

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28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, and 12 seconds. That is when the world will end.

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
Because, over and over I hear people who have firearms for protection maintaining that if someone comes into their house to rob, rape or maim, them and theirs, they're ready for them, followed by their plans to shoot to kill.

But how does that equate to fear? In a conversation about gun ownership, that's a completely relevent non-fear answer. It does not imply, as you seem to take it, that these people dwell on the matter or are particularly concerned about it happening...they just prefer to be prepared for the eventuality. Some may live in high-crime areas where it is a real and prudent precaution to take.

quote:
Here's the thing: I don't entertain thoughts of anyone coming into my home to do me or mine harm. I take, as mentioned, reasonable precautions, and then forget about it.
And that's exactly what gun owners do as well. They just differ on what reasonable precautions are. You lock your door. Ok, but if someone gets past that you are out of precautions. Why does wanting to have a back up to a locked door become any more fearful than locking your door?

quote:
I don't believe anyone is going to come harm me. I don't have the fear that anyone is going to come harm me. Odds are in my favor, that they won't.
And neither do most gun owners. They just prefer to cover all evantualities. If you have zero fear of someone entering your house because the odds are in your favor, there is no need to lock your doors. So why do you? To prevent an unlikely event.

quote:
So, naturally, when I hear, repeated over and over in this and other threads, people being ready with their guns for that imaginary foe that's going to break into their house and do them wrong, I see it as fear. What else could it be?
Reasonable precaution against an unlikely but devastating event. You're injecting your own bias in your imagination that these people are constantly worried or overly concerned.


quote:
1)I don't understand why people are so afraid that they must have guns in their home.
They're not afraid, they're just taking precautions.

quote:
2)I suppose I'm referring to assault weapons and hand guns, guns that kill people as opposed to say, a hunting rifle. You do see the difference, don't you?
Nope. Assault rifles and handguns are often used for pleasure shooting.
quote:
3) I'll wager the most common result of a gun used for home protection is someone in the home being hurt, or the gun being stolen, and now out on the street.
The latest figures I can find are 1997, but for State inmates, only 9.9% obtained their weapons from burglary or robbery. 39.6% got theirs from a friend or family member. So the majority of guns used in crime do not come from theft.

From 1993-1997 in the US there were 411,800 non-fatal firearm injuries and 180,533 fatal injuries. For non-fatal 17% were accidents, 6% suicide attempts, 13% unknown. For fatal, 51% were suicides, 3% were accidents and 1% unknown.

It seems very unlikely then that your claims are true even without narrowing down how many accidents occurred in the home (and excluding suicides), so I'll take your wager...show me the numbers.


quote:
It would be nice to have numbers from an unbiased source.
I never use anything else. Firearm Injury and Death from Crime 1993-1997 and Firearm use by Offenders Both reports come from the Deparment of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics.

pinqy

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Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
You know, I've often wondered if those who'd shoot to kill an intruder in their home would make sure they are being threatened first. I only ask because I know of a couple cases where an intruder was actually a person with Alzheimer's who didn't know where they were.

Late coming to this thread, but the one time I have ever been home when an someone was trying to break into my place it was an elderly man with severe dementia. And we had a gun in the house. Fortunately for the old man, the gun was locked away and I don't think there were any bullets in the house anyway.
I did not go for the gun, I went for the phone BTW, but something scared him off anyway. I called the police and let them know that I thought someone had escaped from the old folks place up the street and went back to bed.

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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daisyslegs
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
I'm sorry, but everytime I read something like this, I see it as fear. Aren't you religious? If you are, aren't you suppose to trust and have faith that you'll be taken care of? I'm an atheist and still I trust that I'll be ok. I figure, I can spend my life fearful for my life and have nothing ever happen to me, or I can trust that nothing will ever happen to me, and save myself a lifetime of anxiety. I choose the latter. But along those same lines I feel I should insert here that although I love the heck out of living, I'm not afraid of dying. And maybe that has something to do with it.
Tagurit, please don't take this as snarky, but this indicates the atittude of bad things only happen to other people, never me, I'm sure of it.

Bad things happen. You have no more immunity to this than anyone else. Less in fact, as you apparently are not willing to even hurt someone to save yourself if you are attacked.

That is your right. I have faith that everything will be ok too, and then I remember the old saying that God helps those that help themselves.

I'd rather be ready to do what it takes to save this old skin of mine than expect divine intervention.

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For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - and sometimes a scar.
"and don't threaten anyone with your pants today!" - Frog_Feathers
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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by ali_marea:
Tag, if you live in the suburbs of Detroit and you think that you're perfectly safe and that odds are you'll never be harmed, that's naive. Not secure.

No, it's not. Take a look at the population of the tri-county area, or even just Wayne county. Now, look at the crime rate. We're a heavily populated area. I don't think our crime is exceedingly out of line with other heavily populated areas. Besides, basically those that are killing each other know each other. I don't know those people. I don't do business with them. I have no reason to believe that I'm in any danger.
quote:
I have a gun for target shooting. There are no bullets in my home and never will be. (A Walther P-22 is not ideal for self-protection. [Wink] )
Ok. Why aren't there bullets in your home and never will be?
quote:
But let's just pretend, for a moment, that I do own a gun for self-protection. I would have bought it, educated myself on it, and then put it in a safe place. Beyond that I would not spend any more time worrying about being attacked or having my house broken into than you do. I just have an additional item to assure my personal safety.
Then, you're not sitting there telling me that you have a gun, that you know how to use it and if anyone steps inside your door they're a dead man, now are you?
quote:
It seems you want to peg people as having certain feelings or motivations without actually listening to what they're saying. Or maybe without processing that information.
What I'm hearing is people saying they have a gun, they know how to use it, and if anyone comes into their home, they'll shoot to kill. Now, if people are not entertaining the thought that someone will come in their house, why are they prepared for it? That's neither here nor there. I am not the only one that doesn't seem to be listening. I don't want to take away anyone's right to own guns. I just want people to examine why they are so all-fired ready to kill. If they really want to protect themselves, why not, upon coming across an intruder, take a stance, aim your weapon, and shout "freeze!" or "drop your weapon!" If part of their training isn't about disarming someone, maybe it should be. Maybe I'd just rather hear people say they plan to disarm someone. Maybe it wouldn't make me think they're so fearful. No. They're going to shoot to kill. Disarming doesn't even seem an option, and is even viewed as stupidity.

But, here's another bit for some of you to sink your teeth into. Although, were I ever threatened, I'd fight to my death, I would rather die than take another's life. That's really how I feel. For me, personally, killing a human being is not an option. I value human life too greatly. Many of you think "kill or be killed." I think there are alternatives, that everything is not black and white.

But, I also think that we have a large sector of society that is a threat. What we do about this is a measure of just how civilized we really are.

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Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
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AAMAH

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
3) I'll wager the most common result of a gun used for home protection is someone in the home being hurt, or the gun being stolen, and now out on the street.

The latest figures I can find are 1997, but for State inmates, only 9.9% obtained their weapons from burglary or robbery. 39.6% got theirs from a friend or family member. So the majority of guns used in crime do not come from theft.
I said, out on the street. Guns are used for intimidation, and backup plan for criminals that do not get caught, also, you know. Where did the friend or family member get the guns that gave them to 39.6% of the inmates?

I really have to go now. I'm making mattie's baked macaroni and cheese before heading off to work. Feel free to carry on without me.

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Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
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AAMAH

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Dark Blue
The First USA Noel


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quote:
I don't entertain thoughts of anyone coming into my home to do me or mine harm. I take, as mentioned, reasonable precautions, and then forget about it. I don't believe anyone is going to come harm me. I don't have the fear that anyone is going to come harm me. Odds are in my favor, that they won't.
This is more or less the exact same statement I have heard from all but about 3 of my home invasion victims. People who have guns for self protection are no more fearful than people who buckle up when driving. I certainly don't get in my car thinking "Oh my God, I'm gonna get into an accident today, oh this is gonna be bad" I get in, click my seatbelt and go on my way unafraid. I just take this simple precaution so that SHOULD I get in a wreck, I have more odds in my favor. Exactly the same mentality for those with guns for self protection. SHOULD somebody break into my house, more odds are in my favor.

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I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf. -- On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs by LTC. Dave Grossman, USA (Ret)

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Gibbie
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Tag asks:
quote:
I just want people to examine why they are so all-fired ready to kill. If they really want to protect themselves, why not, upon coming across an intruder, take a stance, aim your weapon, and shout "freeze!" or "drop your weapon!"
Part of basic training on gun ownership is to understand that if you point a weapon at someone you must be prepared to use it. If you're not, that person may very likely take it from you. Or use their weapon on you first. If you are not prepared to do that, then you are better off without. I believe that when a person says they are prepared to shoot an invader in their home, that they would not actually shoot them if the intruder turned tail and ran. You seem to think that because they are prepared to take the ultimate action, it means that all other intermediary steps are immediately dismissed. They are not, they are followed. But you must be prepared to follow them all if you have to. That's what people mean.

quote:
I would rather die than take another's life. That's really how I feel.
And this is actually the issue when you get right down to it. The question really isn't "would you shoot an intruder in your home" the question is "how far would you go to protect your home and your family." Here's my answer. There is no thing in my home worth killing a person over. However, I would do whatever it took to protect the life of my child and my husband. That includes, calling 911, helping them out a window to run for their lives, and if all else fails harming an intruder that were threatening them, whether that be with a gun, a baseball bat or my bare hands. I would lay down my own life to save theirs. That does not mean that I am afraid and dwell on these scenarios nightly, this does not mean that I sleep less peacefully than you. This also does not mean that I would be gleeful should such an event occur or in any way look forward to doing so. It is just an acknowledgement of my feelings of protection toward my family. You have chosen differently. That is all.

Gibbie

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If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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As for Alzheimers patients not being violent, that is not really true. I lived in an area with about 5 Assisted Living Facilities within a demented persons walking distance from my apartment. They can become very agitated and violent if they are disturbed from their agenda. And if their agenda is to get into your house because they think it is theirs (a not rare scenario in my old neighborhood) they might not have a weapon, but that doesn't stop them from picking up a shovel or rake that you have in the yard and using it to get you out of *their* house.



Personally, I have nothing against the use of guns for sport, or even for personal protection. I think people should be trained on the correct way to handle a gun in case they ever need to. (Attacked by a polar bear on a tropical island for example). However I also think that there is a huge HUGE amount of responsibilty involved with keeping a gun at home. Every person that comes into your home has potential access to that gun. I think guns should be locked in a gun safe, un-loaded anytime they are not in use. That kind of defeats the purpose of having a handgun for personal protection if you ask me. For example, if a person is breaking into your home while you are sleeping (aka home invasion robbery) they will take one of two tacts. Either break into the area where they think they can get the most loot in the shortest amount of time so they can be gone before you have a chance to wake up and call the police or they will come into your bedroom, subdue you and then take their time through the house. If they are breaking into your bedroom they already have the element of surprise. You are snoring away. You need to wake up, realize what is happening, go to your gunsafe, get your gun, load it, assume a ready stance, establish a target and then shoot the intruder. Do people with handguns for personal protection do drills to get ready for this?

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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ali_marea
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
No, it's not. Take a look at the population of the tri-county area, or even just Wayne county. Now, look at the crime rate. We're a heavily populated area. I don't think our crime is exceedingly out of line with other heavily populated areas. Besides, basically those that are killing each other know each other. I don't know those people. I don't do business with them. I have no reason to believe that I'm in any danger.
I still think that's a naive view of things. I agree that most of the people killing each other know each other. Of course those are not the people you would be protecting yourself from. Most of what I've seen discussed here are people breaking into homes. I would disagree that most victims of robbery know the person breaking in. I'm not saying I think you're more likely than anyone else to get robbed or attacked. I'm saying that thinking you're less likely to get robbed or attacked does not make you immune to it. If you lived in the middle of nowhere, away from all cities, I'd say your chances are less likely. But living in a suburb does not make one safe.

quote:
Ok. Why aren't there bullets in your home and never will be?
Because I haven't had enough training and wouldn't feel confident that I could use my gun properly in an emergency situation. In addition to the fact that my gun is not a self-protection gun. That isn't it's purpose. Also, I don't know how I'd react in an emergency, even without the gun. As much as I hate to admit it, I'm just not a clear thinker in a stressful situation. Life threatening situations may be different, I don't know.

quote:
Then, you're not sitting there telling me that you have a gun, that you know how to use it and if anyone steps inside your door they're a dead man, now are you?
I don't think anyone is saying that. (ETA: Actually, what I meant to say is I don't think most people here are saying that. Obviously it has been said in this thread. Sorry bout that!) But I will tell you this. If I knew how to properly use a gun in self-defense, if I had bullets in my home, and if someone broke into my house and made it apparent they were going to do me harm, I would certainly shoot to kill. Dark Blue explained all the reasons behind that, so I won't repeat what he said.

quote:
Now, if people are not entertaining the thought that someone will come in their house, why are they prepared for it?
Why do you lock your doors? Aren't you entertaining the thought that someone will come into your house?

One last bit:

quote:
For me, personally, killing a human being is not an option. I value human life too greatly. Many of you think "kill or be killed." I think there are alternatives, that everything is not black and white.
That may be how you feel and think, but that's not likely the way an intruder feels and thinks. It doesn't matter if you're unwilling to hurt them. They are probably not as unwilling to hurt you. So while it may not be black and white to you, it quite possibly is to the person holding a gun at you and robbing your house.

Personally, I think a lot of people say they'd never hurt or kill another human being. A lot of people think they'd never torture another human being. Extreme situations create extreme reactions. You cannot always know what you would do. Until you're in that situation I think it's unwise to say that you know how you would react.

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28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, and 12 seconds. That is when the world will end.

Posts: 7158 | From: D.C. | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Mickey Blue
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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Coming in late, not alot to add, but would like to say that I think Dark Blue's seatbelt analogy pretty well sums up this whole "gun owners are afraid" issue.

Other then that all my viewpoints have been pretty well covered.

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"All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do"

Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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