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Author Topic: Guns - can the topic be discussed rationally?
tagurit
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quote:
Originally posted by Oualawouzou:
Nope. I just don't feel much pity.

Ok, then, just rather neutral? Is that a valid assumption?

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Oualawouzou
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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
quote:
Originally posted by Oualawouzou:
Nope. I just don't feel much pity.

Ok, then, just rather neutral? Is that a valid assumption?
Sorta. I fear I don't have the words in English to accurately describe in greater details.

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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I don't want to put words in Tag's mouth but I think what she was trying to get across was not what you would feel toward the person you've killed but more how you would feel personally about yourself if you killed someone.

Is that it Tag?

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Jenn
Layaway in a Manger


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I have a story. Take from it what you will.

A couple years ago, my dad (a retired soldier, if it matters) was in the workshop of the apartment building his girlfriend, Berna, manages. She was outside washing the windows and doors that enter into the lobby. A crazed man started running towards her with a knife...he'd been in the building across the street smashing things, unbeknownst to her. She got inside, closed the door, and ran to her suite to call the police.

The man crashed through the 1/4" plate glass window and started rampaging through the building until he found an unlocked door. He was holding an elderly lady at knifepoint and smashing everything he could. A neighbouring suite called Berna, who at this time ran downstairs to my dad in a panic to update him on the crazy guy who was attacking a helpless 80 year old woman. My dad grabbed his hammer and went to the suite. Crazy guy (covered in blood from smashing through the glass) grabbed a large shard of mirror and came at my dad.

There was a struggle and my dad was cut a few times. He managed to hit the guy in the head with the hammer and told him to stay down or he'd hit him again. The guy kept trying to attack my dad, so my dad hit him again and the guy was knocked out. A few minutes later the police and paramedics finally arrived. (As a side note, this guy was well known to police and paramedics as a schizophrenic drug addict with hepatitis C and HIV. My dad tested negative for everything.)

The guy was in a coma from the head injuries. He woke up and has suffered some brain damage, but he's back on the streets. Had the guy died (which he certainly would have, had my dad had a gun or even used the claw end of the hammer), my dad would have been automatically charged with murder and would have to prove self-defense.

He has never questioned that he did the right thing under the circumstances.

quote:
tag said:
How would you feel? How would it make you feel that you ended a life and that yours wasn't in danger?

If you're asking about emotions, please be a little more clear instead of a vague "what then?"

I would feel terrible and spend time in therapy regardless of whether I had actual been in danger or not - but keep in mind that I wouldn't harm someone unless I felt there was extreme danger to myself or someone else. Even if later it turned out there was no danger, I didn't know that at the time nor did I feel I had the time to find out.

quote:
I really don't feel you can assume that someone in your house without your permission is armed.
I agree with megaira that it's reasonable to assume that anyone entering my home illegally may be willing and able to do me harm. That's not the same thing as assuming they're armed. They may not be armed, but that doesn't mean that they won't find something with which to arm themelves if I get in their way.

FWIW, this is all very hypothetical for me. I don't have any weapons in my home and my plan is is pretty much the same as megaira's: Get the hell out.

quote:
Christie wrote:
Do you believe there would be no consequences to shooting an unarmed person in your home? I'm not really sure what the law would be on that one. I guess it depends on where this happens and the extenuating circumstances.

It depends on a lot of things, which I think the story about my dad illustrates. Did the guy die? Did I shoot to kill or injure? Under what circumstances was he in my home? Did I know he was unarmed? (You usually don't find out that last one until it's too late, one way or another.) Did he intend to hurt me? (You don't have to be armed to hurt someone.) There will certainly be an investigation, as there was with my dad, but not necessarily any legal consequences depending on the circumstances.

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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The things that concern me today are 1) People expressing satisfaction that someone is killed and 2) The fear that drives people to keep guns specifically for the purpose of shooting other people, in their home.

For some reason society has a problem and no one's trying to fix it, or discuss fixing it. Society is arming itself. So, the problem increases and more of society arms itself. Where does it end?

I'm troubled that people seem so willing to shoot another human being. Now, those of you that expressed reluctance and a plan, I'm not talking about you. I'm trying to come to grips with people who have as their first plan of action, should someone be, or they think someone is, in their house, to shoot first, ask questions later.

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Christie:
I don't want to put words in Tag's mouth but I think what she was trying to get across was not what you would feel toward the person you've killed but more how you would feel personally about yourself if you killed someone.

Is that it Tag?

Yes, Christie.

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Prussian Blue
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quote:
Originally posted by Duff Yazzie-Stephens:
passion blue all I have to say is butt out. I felt attacked by her last night, AND she attacked my husband as well, along with other people, YOU dont have no to tell me what opinion I should have, so again Butt out

Think I might change my name to Passion Blue... And I'm afraid you can't tell me what to do! I disagree with you, that's what message boards are about. They're open forum, we can all contribute. Feel free to disagree back...
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Casey, making hot chocolate
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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I'm a shooter, and a pretty good one. I learned to shoot at 9, and was well schooled in safe firearm use at that age.

That said, if you enter my house with a firearm in hand, I will assume you are a threat. You will be confronted verbally, and notified that I have a gun. If you continue, or draw your firearm, well, I take that as a hostile action towards myself and my family. I would not hesitate to fire.

I wrote a rather interesting paper in Philosophy on this subject- many cites, and many points of view. I can supply copies on request if anyone feels like reading what research I did. PM me.

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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You know, back when I was still living at home, I was upstairs and thought I'd heard something downstairs. I just happened to have a cedar chest with steak knives at the end of my bed, thanks to dear old mom. My first reaction was to grab a knife, which I did, and then creep downstairs, looking for the interloper, calling out softly as I went.

Well, there was no one there, much to my relief, but I was pretty proud of myself for my quick action. That is, until I actually thought more clearly of what could have been. Once I did that, I realized that was the stupidest thing I could have done. For me, I'll be on the phone to 911 or out of the house, as megaira mentioned.

I don't believe that it's in anyone's best interest to try to track down someone in their house, armed or not. If you see yourself easily shooting the villain and saving the day, you really haven't thought it all out.

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John Stephens
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
The things that concern me today are 1) People expressing satisfaction that someone is killed and 2) The fear that drives people to keep guns specifically for the purpose of shooting other people, in their home.

For some reason society has a problem and no one's trying to fix it, or discuss fixing it. Society is arming itself. So, the problem increases and more of society arms itself. Where does it end?

I'm troubled that people seem so willing to shoot another human being. Now, those of you that expressed reluctance and a plan, I'm not talking about you. I'm trying to come to grips with people who have as their first plan of action, should someone be, or they think someone is, in their house, to shoot first, ask questions later.

If I ever need to shoot an intruder, my feelings will be the same as they would have been if I'd had I shot someone during my time in the Army: "It was me or you, and tough NSFBK for you".

Fixing society isn't my job. I've done my bit for God and Country, and I've the scars to prove it. It's someone else's turn to save the planet.

I am responsible only for myself, my family, and any friends staying under my roof. Everyone else is on their own, especially anyone rash enough to break into my house.

I do have barriers, and if I spot an intruder outside them I'll let the police deal with it. But once they're in, it's too late for the police to do anything but write up the report.

I want to repeat a point I made earlier, since it's the key to my beliefs: I DO NOT TRUST CRIMINALS. They've already shown bad judgement by becoming criminals, and I refuse to put the safety of the people I'm responsible for in their hands.

And yes, I do have enough tactical sense to take cover and positively ID my target before firing. I used to do this for a living, you know.

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Jenn
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
For some reason society has a problem and no one's trying to fix it, or discuss fixing it.

So, start discussing. You have identified a problem and think it needs to be fixed. You're a part of this society that needs to start fixing things, so what are your ideas?

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Ms. Kringle
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Well...I believe in responsible gun ownership.

I am a supporter of the Second Amendment...with provisions.

After all, I don't have a problem with waiting periods, and background checks. Most people I know have nothing to fear when encountering a background check (me included), and most people don't have to have that firearm RIGHT NOW.

I don't have a problem if assault weapons are restricted purchases. What regular citizen needs a fully automatic weapon? What the hell are you using it for, you gonna go hunt Osama?

And no, I don't have a problem with someone who breaks into my house being shot. Of course, we don't own a firearm at this point, but we'd have no problem using our Louisville Slugger on someone breaking into the house. I have a MagLite that I keep in my car. If someone tries to assault me as I'm getting in my car, I'm going to come out swinging it. I have a right to defend myself, and stay alive. Hey, if we DID own a firearm, we'd be sequestering ourselves in our bedroom, calling 911 on a cell phone, and waiting to see if someone comes busting through the door (we wouldn't be able to get out of the house, the way it's set up) while we're on the phone with the cops.

IF someone came busting through the bedroom door, that person came into MY home with the intent to rob us, and once that person saw us, would not intend to leave us able to identify him, or would want to incapacitate us so we couldn't stop him from violating our sanctuary, our HOME. Or, God forbid, would want to do worse things to us. I feel completely justified in firing on someone in that situation.

Would I feel remorse? You bet. Would I want to change things if I could? Of course. Would I regret shooting someone who was invading my home and threatening my family? No, absolutely not. Wouldn't be happy he was killed or injured, but wouldn't be too sorry to have protected me and mine.

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Jaime Vargas Sanchez
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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My take:

Even if tag could have come across a bit overboard, I agree with her in one count.

Perople are talking here, not only about guns. They talk directly about KILLING. Doesn't shoot the guy in the leg or something not work anymore?

As for my opinion on guns. I don't like them, have never seen one and don't plan on it. When I was a kid I trembled with fear at the thought that I would have to do military service, which until recently was mandatory (I finally declared myself conscience objecter). The thing is - I don't know anyone who has one nor anyone who needs. You know that sentence that's always trown about: "when guns are outlawed only outlaws have guns"? Well, maybe yes - but the BIG outlaws. Certainly not the lowly burglar who breaks into your house.

Jaime

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John Stephens
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Jaime Vargas Sanchez:

People are talking here, not only about guns. They talk directly about KILLING. Doesn't shoot the guy in the leg or something not work anymore?


That's Hollywood BS. Shooting people in the leg doesn't work, and never did. Neither does shooting the gun out of your opponent's hand. Once you've made the decision to shoot, you aim for the center of your opponent's body, and keep on firing until he's down. If you're not ready to do that, then you shouldn't have a gun.
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Chimera
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I'm of the mind that if they have broken into my home they are up to no good. If I had a gun I would shoot to kill. Why? Because if I shoot to injure and they are armed I could be the one killed. I would never intentionally put myself in the position of having to choose to take a human life or not but once they enter my home they have taken the choice of avoiding such a decision away from me. Even if the intruder turned out to be unarmed I would still think I made the best choice (though I wouldn't be happy about it). I have a small child in the home with me and our combined weight is less than 150 lbs. I think if things turned violent or physical (which I would have no reason to think they wouldn't... criminals aren't always the most gentle of individuals) we would be at the lossing end of the confrontation (which, even without weapons, could end in serious injuries or death... perhaps even rape). I'd feel much greater remorse if I took no action and it resulted in harm to my child. I'd also feel worse if I took no action, the person got away, and the next day my 90 year old neighbour was killed during a break in.

I understand the "they're only things" argument. The major problem I have with that is there is no way of knowing that they will leave peacefully once they get your belongings. Or will they discover and also harm and kill you? My secondary problem is I feel its more than just things. Rape is more than just sex, its a violent act of agression and a deep violation. Home robbery is also a deep violation IMHO. My house is my home (my sactuary), the one place I should be able to feel safe and secure. Home intruders take all of that away (again IMHO). I'm not trying to justify killing simply because some one feels violated. I'm just saying that there's more than mere belongings at stake.

I guess this is a little personal to me. A friend of mine was robbed and shot last year and he's still recovering from it (but he's really lucky to be alive). The robbers were never caught. He wasn't even able to really provide a description. They didn't even give him the opertunity to cooperate they just shot him and fled (trust me this friend wouldn't intentional risk getting shot and would have cooperated given the chance... but he didn't have that chance, as soon as he realized someone was there he got shot). They had their goal and were looking out for themselves. Luckily my friend seems to have handled it better than I think I would've but he did move to a different neighbourhood since the incident (sadly not everyone has that choice and sometimes it doesn't really matter where you live... this shit happens everywhere).

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Casey, making hot chocolate
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by John Stephens:
quote:
Originally posted by Jaime Vargas Sanchez:

People are talking here, not only about guns. They talk directly about KILLING. Doesn't shoot the guy in the leg or something not work anymore?


That's Hollywood BS.
Indeed it is. Ever hear of "spray and pray"? I'm a target shooter, and a pretty good one- I can drill a quarter at 30 feet with a pistol, standing. However, when you're shot at, you simply shoot to disable by shooting at the center of your target. Fine targeting is absolutely impossible. You shoot, and shoot until your target is on the ground.

Ever wonder why cops will shoot an armed suspect 7 or more times? That's because that's how many it took to drop them.

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Out of the Blue
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quote:
That's Hollywood BS. Shooting people in the leg doesn't work, and never did. Neither does shooting the gun out of your opponent's hand. Once you've made the decision to shoot, you aim for the center of your opponent's body, and keep on firing until he's down. If you're not ready to do that, then you shouldn't have a gun.
Amen John.

I don't know where tag is getting the idea that us "trigger happy" folks take pride in shooting people. I know that I never once said I'd be proud to shoot someone, and I wouldn't be, I'd be HAPPY that he didn't get me before I got him, but surely not proud.

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Jaime Vargas Sanchez:
Perople are talking here, not only about guns. They talk directly about KILLING. Doesn't shoot the guy in the leg or something not work anymore?

No... This has been shown to be too risky...

For one thing, even a minor gunshot wound *can* kill; it's only in comic books and bad movies that you can shoot someone in the shoulder and they're just fine the next day. There simply aren't any good targets in the human body where there aren't any arteries, let alone major organs. No one is a good enough shot to take off the other guy's little finger at the last joint.

In fact, even someone who has taken a lethal gunshot can remain upright and functional for a surprising length of time. You can put a large hole in someone's chest and they still might be able to shoot back, or slash with a knife.

And, yes, there is a cultural element. In the Middle-East, men will wave guns at each other to emphasize their arguments. Not in the U.S. Our cultural "body language" says, very explicitly, that pointing a gun indicates immediate willingness and intent to use it. In fact, it's a serious crime, in the U.S., to point a gun at someone.

Personally, I agree with Tagurit in most of what has been said here. I don't own a gun. (Well, okay, I've got some old black-powder reproductions, but I wouldn't fire 'em for love or money.) I also oppose capital punishment. I value human life -- even stupid worthless human life, of the sort that descends to violent crime -- too highly.

Silas

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Jaime Vargas Sanchez
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by John Stephens:
If you're not ready to do that, then you shouldn't have a gun.

And if you ARE ready to do that, you certainly shouldn't have one either.

Jaime

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Jaime Vargas Sanchez
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
quote:
Originally posted by Jaime Vargas Sanchez:
Perople are talking here, not only about guns. They talk directly about KILLING. Doesn't shoot the guy in the leg or something not work anymore?

No... This has been shown to be too risky...

For one thing, even a minor gunshot wound *can* kill; it's only in comic books and bad movies that you can shoot someone in the shoulder and they're just fine the next day. There simply aren't any good targets in the human body where there aren't any arteries, let alone major organs. No one is a good enough shot to take off the other guy's little finger at the last joint.

I was asking with no motives other than those out of sheer ignorance - as I said before, I live in a country where, now that military service is no longer mandatory, there's a fair chance that the majority of youngsters today will die without ever having seen a handgun outside their TV.

Jaime

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Casey, making hot chocolate
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
Our cultural "body language" says, very explicitly, that pointing a gun indicates immediate willingness and intent to use it. In fact, it's a serious crime, in the U.S., to point a gun at someone.

Personally, I agree with Tagurit in most of what has been said here. I don't own a gun. (Well, okay, I've got some old black-powder reproductions, but I wouldn't fire 'em for love or money.) I also oppose capital punishment. I value human life -- even stupid worthless human life, of the sort that descends to violent crime -- too highly.

Silas

I value life to a great extent. However, when a gun is pointed directly at me, you have shown quite clearly your intent to do me severe bodily harm. How is it wrong to defend my own life when I am directly threatened?

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daisyslegs
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Wow. Teach me to start a thread and not stick around to follow up on it.

OK, from what I have read I think I can hopefully put Tag's mind at ease on the idea that I would show pleasure or delight in killing someone.

No, I most certainly would not. I would likely be pretty damn upset and feel terrible, but such is the cost for doing what needed to be done in my mind.

I look at it very simply. If someone enters my home with a weapon, they are ready to use it. If upon confrontation this person does not run, then yes. I will shoot and I will kill.

I could care less about possetions. I have kids. There would be no hiding in my room on the phone to 911. I would need to make sure my kids were safe, which means alerting the intruder. Plenty of time to run here.

If the intruder did not run, it is very easy to realize that harm is intended. If he get's through me, he will get to my kids. I will do everything in my power to make sure that does not happen.

I will shoot. I will shoot to kill. I will however stop well before dismembering the corpse and doing a happy dance.

I'm sorry but I am insulted that you think this is trigger happy and that I am some sort of sick puppy just itching to kill someone. It would hurt me deeply to have to make that decision, but my kid's lifes and safety comes before an intruder's anyday.

These are the thoughts I had behind my Foot In Mouth comment. Yes turns out the origional story was a bit bare of the facts and the whole story was a mess and too damn bad, but it was the basic idea of an intruder with a weapon stopped that I was commenting on.

And don't give me any bull about having guns making someone paranoid. Do you have health insurance? Car insurance? I'll bet you that more women are raped daily than people diagnosed with terminal cancer. It's not like winning the freaking lottery, it's another form of insurance.

I do value people's lives. Everyones. But I cannot be responsible for another person's really bad choices.

Oh, and Muck, Liberal is a suburb to Mulino, but does not have it's own address, just a small area down the road. I know Lebanon pretty well, frequent trips to Sweethome. [Smile]

daisyslegs

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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
I don't care what you think you saw or didn't see in the other thread, megaira.

That's too bad, because you were claiming that this was the case (i.e. glee & exuberance) in that thread, and it simply *was not* there. I haven't yet seen you back it up anywhere that Daisy -who your original rant was in reply to - was "gleeful" or "exuberant" about killing someone. Or that she was "looking forward to it" as a "moment of glory."

No one else, for that matter, said they'd take joy or pleasure in killing anyone. No one expressed, either, that they had a gun " specifically for the purpose of shooting other people, in their home."


So why were you ranting away at people in the thread, if these were your "true" concerns and yet, no one said anything to the effect of validating those claims anywhere in either thread?

You should, apparantly, care what I didn't see, because it's pointing out you were a bitch without any reason other than ranting at someone. You put all kinds of energy into claiming I seek people out to "humiliate" on the boards. Humoring you for a moment and assuming it's true, how do you think you're are any better?

Nearly everyone that I saw in both threads expressed that they'd do it because they had to protect their lives and/or that of their loved ones. Doing it because you feel you have to, and doing it because you want to are a universe apart.


And yes, you're right, I used a generalized statement in reference to your arguement, myself, in the OP by saying "tags attack on gun ownership." It wasn't a matter of missing your point, it was a matter of you making some very generalized statements and therefore, myself drawing a generalized conclusion.

And regarding myself. Yeap, I went overboard in my responses to you. I won't make apologies for the first post, because while it's bitchy, it's true, and on par with what you were dishing out to others. But the ones shortly following that were unecessary and uncalled for.

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by daisyslegs and lemon drops:
And don't give me any bull about having guns making someone paranoid. Do you have health insurance? Car insurance? I'll bet you that more women are raped daily than people diagnosed with terminal cancer. It's not like winning the freaking lottery, it's another form of insurance.

I didn't say that having guns makes someone paranoid. I said that paranoid people own guns. That is not to say, however, that all gun owners are paranoid, before someone jumps to the quick conclusion.

Would you like to put some money on the rape versus cancer claim, or is this going to be a lady's bet? And when I spoke of winning the lottery, I was comparing the chances of random violence in terms of the odds.

ETA: And daisyslegs, the dead man, that you repeatedly said you would have shot too, was in a garage. Initially you thought he'd broken into the garage and was killed for his efforts and you would have shot him too. Where do you place the boundaries on this shooting? What if he were in your shed? Still open season on him? How about just inside your yard?

Why is it so easy for some people to say they'd shoot someone? I can't for the life of me understand it.

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Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
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AAMAH

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Bach_girl
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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I will never own a gun. I will never keep a gun in my home.

1- My best friend was murdered w/ a gunshot to the head- for that reason alone I will probably never be able to handle (touch, hold) a gun. Call me crazy, let it annoy you, I don't care- it is just how I feel.

2- There are kids in my home.

3- Hi Opal


However... No matter what problem I might have with guns, I do not have the right to tell other people whether or not they can (or should) own a gun. The United States Constitution gives them that right and nobody has the right to deny it. If they choose to use their gun in an unlawful way- that is what laws are for.

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"My Very Educated Mother Just Said Uh-oh! No...Pluto..."~ Steven Colbert

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felineki
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Well, my honest opinion on the subject is that no one should really have such easy access to means that can kill by the mere push of a button, but since not everyone agrees with this, I can see why some would want a weapon strictly for defense.

To me, this is one of those issues that is so convoluted and twisted that it's not even worth discussing. Like you said in the OP, anything anyone says becomes "attacking", and there are so many possible scenarios that are as likely as they are unlikely that neither side can get a point across, let alone come to a consensus.

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daisyslegs
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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No Tagurit, I would not kill someone it my garage. I would if they were in my house and did not run. It was the idea of the issue, not the exact situation.

As to a ladies bet, we're out on that regardless because too many people refuse to place charges on rape and terminal cancer is only a term, some beat it. I will only say this once and don't ever want to revisit it: I was 12 when I was raped and I did not report it. I was afraid and had no one I felt I could trust to tell.

I am no longer afraid. Maybe that's why I can say I will kill someone. I'm not saying that is only why. I will do anything I can to prevent my daughter from dealing with that.

Please do not bring this up anymore. I will argue from another point from now on.

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~tough as nails yet nice as pie~
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - and sometimes a scar.
"and don't threaten anyone with your pants today!" - Frog_Feathers
daisys does Myspace

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felineki
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Jaime Vargas Sanchez:
there's a fair chance that the majority of youngsters today will die without ever having seen a handgun outside their TV.

Jaime

Heh. I'd die happy in that case.
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Lapis Lazuli
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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Well, I'd never even dream of owning or firing a gun; to be honest, I wouldn't trust myself with the things-- and I'd like to think that if I have no gun, then it's impossible for an intruder to steal it/wrestle it away from me.

However, as far as killing or harming someone who breaks into my home, I have no issues with. You enter my house without permission and pose a potential threat to my family, I will not hesitate to defend them and myself if I must.

I wouldn't use a gun, but I am a martial artist. I own seven swords and am trained to use them all. If I were to take a swing at an intruder, injuring them or possibly killing them, would that be up on the same level as shooting someone? What if I use my bare hands?

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Your pants will be legendary, even in Hell.

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Bug Muldoon
The "Was on Sale" Song


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I suppose the most polite thing I can say here is that I take great comfort in the fact that the only gun I ever saw was in the possession of a police officer. Where it should be.

Perhaps the problem in countries with loose gun laws is that they have entered a circle that cannot easily be broken. Once you descend in this spiral of violence - 'bad guys have guns so we need guns, potential victims have guns so bad guys get bigger guns' - it becomes ever more difficult for either side to banish weapons.

I don't know how countries with strict gun laws managed to avoid this deadlock. Maybe it's an aversion of violence, a realisation that guns don't increase personal safety, or a deeper trust in law enforcement - or simply a vastly different mentality.

I'd like to echo Jaime here, and say that I hope never to see a firearm up close for the remainder of my natural life. Chances are, I won't. Fortunately.

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All along the untrodden paths of the future, I can see the footprints of an unseen hand.

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Cervus
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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You know, I've often wondered if those who'd shoot to kill an intruder in their home would make sure they are being threatened first. I only ask because I know of a couple cases where an intruder was actually a person with Alzheimer's who didn't know where they were.

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"There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen
Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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On related question. Is there anyone here who honestly doesn't think its okay to kill in self defense? I'm hearing a lot of arguments along the line of "Well I just don't think I could bring myself to kill someone else." Even if your life was in danger? Would anyone really be okay with the idea of letting yourself die rather then the person killing you? I mean this with no snark, just simple curiosity.

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"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen

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Cervus
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
On related question. Is there anyone here who honestly doesn't think its okay to kill in self defense? I mean this with no snark, just simple curiosity.

For me, it depends on what you are considering self-defense. If you are being physically attacked, raped, and/or they are actually trying to kill you, then I can see how that would justify killing your attacker - that's legitimate self-defense. However, I don't consider "self-defense" to be killing someone who's only broken into your home. Even if they are *threatening* you I don't think it's okay to kill them. I only think it's okay to kill in self-defense if your physical body is actually being attacked at that moment. This is, of course, my personal opinion, and I am neither lawyer, officer, nor judge.

However, I could never intentionally kill a person, even if they were trying to kill me. My main goal would be to incapacitate them so I could get away. If I ended up killing them while I was defending myself, I would be horrified and sickened. And I would probably be scared that in today's NFBSK-ed up legal system, I'd somehow be tried for murder even if it was self-defense.

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"There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen
Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
You know, I've often wondered if those who'd shoot to kill an intruder in their home would make sure they are being threatened first. I only ask because I know of a couple cases where an intruder was actually a person with Alzheimer's who didn't know where they were.

That is my concern as well. When I was younger I was very nervous when I was alone in the house and was more than prepared to believe that the slightest noise I heard was another Ted Bundy out to get me. There was more than one occasion when I nervously crept downstairs convinced someone had broken in and it turned out to be a family member who had come home unexpectedly. I really do wonder, if I had had access to a gun what I might have done.

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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Oualawouzou
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
On related question. Is there anyone here who honestly doesn't think its okay to kill in self defense? I'm hearing a lot of arguments along the line of "Well I just don't think I could bring myself to kill someone else." Even if your life was in danger? Would anyone really be okay with the idea of letting yourself die rather then the person killing you? I mean this with no snark, just simple curiosity.

I think it's okay to kill in self-defense. However, personnally, I believe killing must be the absolute last resort. To stick with the burglar in house situation, I wouldn't kill unless the following criterias are met:

1) We somehow come face to face or he comes face to face with someone else;
2) I am 100% certain he is armed (not in a "he broke into my house, therefore he is armed and dangerous" mentality, as some people in this argument are... Again, is there a study or something proving that burglars are very likely to be armed and focused on harming whoever they find in the house?) or, if unarmed, is still intent in harming me or someone else;
3) He is aware he was spotted and police has been called (real or bluff, depending on weither I got my hands on a phone or not) but he won't leave on his own;
4) Attempts to incapacitate him were unsuccessful or can't be reasonnably tried (stupid example, if he has a knife and I have a gun, I'd try to shoot to stop and not to kill, but if we both have guns, I'd shoot to kill as I might not have a chance to fire a second time if the first bullet does not bring him to his senses).

That's just personnal guidelines I've set for myself when thinking about "what if" scenarios. Haven't had a chance to put them in practice yet, and hopefully never will have to...

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Le champignon arrive.

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