quote:Originally posted by hudders: Whilst I too cannot think of a legitimate reason for scanning personal documents, I can't really think of any illegitimate reason either.
When I was travelling around Europe a few years ago, one of the pieces of advice loads of people gave me was to carry a photocopy of your passport in your luggage, and leave a photocopy with someone at home as well, in case of Nameless Things Going Wrong.
Seems the Canadian government agress with you.
quote:Make two photocopies of the identification page of your passport. Leave one copy with a friend or relative at home. Bring the second copy with you on your trip. Carry this photocopy separately from your passport when you travel. This can help with the replacement process if your passport is lost or stolen.
-------------------- "Excellent - a camel!" - what my husband swears I exclaimed in my sleep last night Posts: 39 | From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Jul 2005
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No problems using a five year old scanner and Paint Shop Pro 7. I present, the British fiver. Front Back
If I suddenly disappear then CID broke my counterfeit money ring, after all I tried so hard to cover my tracks, e-mailing the images to myself, then hosting them on my own server.
Note the anti-counterfeit stuff though. On the left part of the frnt is a silver bit which is a hologram that alternates between an image and the number five. Scanning messes this hologram into garbage. There is also a silver strip woven between the pages. One side you can see a broken line, but held up to the light there is a thick line. Finally the watermark at the bottom middle displays a queen when held to the light. These checks easily spot bad notes, yet so many people still take them.
The same is on Euro notes, I checked.
Posts: 1985 | From: Reading, England | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I never had to send a copy of my (NON)drivers licence (state ID) to get a copy of my birth certificate, but I did have to have the birth certificate to get my ID.
A low resolution black and white copy would probably work for the cigarette companyies, although I never had to send proof to them, I just had to sign a sworn statement I was over 18, and give them my date of birth.
The copies for work, at least in the state of MD are also low res black and white copies. The hi res color copier where I used to work (for the state of MD) would not copy licenses, social security cards, or other such documents.)
Posts: 280 | From: Maryland | Registered: Jan 2004
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While I agree that there are very few good reasons to be making high-quality copies of any country’s currency, this one sort of rubs me wrong (bold is mine):
quote: on the higher end, better resolution machines, there is a mechanism that will actually shut off the unit if you try to copy something you shouldn't, like driver's licenses, money, deeds, passports, etc. you will not be able to turn the unit on - you have to call for service.
At least down here in Texas, USA (and Illinois, where I lived previously) our driver’s licenses are plastic - I can’t imagine a printed/paper version getting passed off as real anywhere where it would be worth the effort.
driver's licenses in my state are plastic as well, but if you turn it just right you can see a reflective hologram. the hologram is reflected on the eye of the scanner, and the scanner reads it as something that is intended to be secure, and will shut down. and if we get right down to it, someone determined to make a copy of your license and use it as their own will probably try to laminate it (or something) to get by with it. therefore, anything that is intended to be secure cannot be copied by a high resolution copier. it's just easier that way. this is not usually on your home scanner, but mainly office grade products, so feel free to photocopy away on your home machine. just don't expect it to look good.
incidently, it will also prevent you from copying Postal and IRS stamps (cancelled or uncancelled), draft papers, motor vehicle titles, food stamps, travelers cheque's, and immigration papers, among other things.
Posts: 12 | From: New York | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sephira: driver's licenses in my state are plastic as well, but if you turn it just right you can see a reflective hologram. the hologram is reflected on the eye of the scanner, and the scanner reads it as something that is intended to be secure, and therefore will lock. and if we get right down to it, someone determined to make a copy of your license and use it as their own will probably try to laminate it (or something) to get by with it. therefore, anything that is intended to be secure cannot be copied by a high resolution copier. it's just easier that way. this is not usually on your home scanner, but mainly office grade products, so feel free to photocopy away on your home machine. just don't expect it to look good.
Again I'd have to see proof that a hologram on a plastic license will keep a high quality copier from copying it.
quote:incidently, it will also prevent you from copying Postal and IRS stamps (cancelled or uncancelled), draft papers, motor vehicle titles, food stamps, travelers cheque's, and immigration papers, among other things.
And I don't believe stamps can't be copied. We have at least three examples posted here already. And I have copied all thase things listed.
-------------------- Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish Posts: 2036 | From: Virginia | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:And I don't believe stamps can't be copied. We have at least three examples posted here already. And I have copied all thase things listed.
i'm sure you have, but on what machine? this isn't all copiers. like i said, it's higher end, expensive machines that you most likely would not have at home, but rather at mid to large sized offices. since they are capable of creating realistic reproductions there are limitations. you can't not believe me all you want; but here are some photos that i took with my crappy little camera phone of the front of the machine:
http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20xy.jpg Postal Stamps (Cancelled or Uncancelled) Immigration Papers Identifying Badges or Insignias Internal Revenue Stamps (Cancelled or Uncancelled) Selective Service or draft papers Bonds or other certificates of indebtedness
http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=35nv1.jpg Checks or drafts drawn by government agencies Stock certificates Motor Vehicle Licenses and Certificates of Title Copyrighted Works/Works of Art without Permission of Copyright Owner
granted, some of it is legalities so we can't get sued (the copyright one sticks out in my mind), but the others won't copy. the machine will turn off, and turn back on. as it takes a good twenty minutes for it to turn off, and another fifteen to startup, it's a big pain. this ability can be turned on and off. in my office, it happens to be turned on. trust me. this happened my first day of work, when they had to photocopy my passport.
Posts: 12 | From: New York | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:And I don't believe stamps can't be copied. We have at least three examples posted here already. And I have copied all thase things listed.
i'm sure you have, but on what machine? this isn't all copiers. like i said, it's higher end, expensive machines that you most likely would not have at home, but rather at mid to large sized offices. since they are capable of creating realistic reproductions there are limitations. you can't not believe me all you want; but here are some photos that i took with my crappy little camera phone of the front of the machine:
I call BS on this. I have worked in small offices, government offices, on small personal copiers and the "higher end, expensive machines" only carried at large offices. Trust me when I say that they ALL copy everything. There is nothing in any of the documents you have listed that would cause a machine that takes photos of documents to stop working or cause it to not reproduce it.
I have seen copies of passports and drivers licenses from all of these machines.
quote:It reads: The following documents may not be copied:
May not does not mean Can not. Big difference.
-------------------- I swear, it was funnier in my head. Yeah, I used to be pink. vanilla_pink. Posts: 2493 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Sephira: this ability can be turned on and off.
quote:Originall posted by vanilla: I have worked in small offices, government offices, on small personal copiers and the "higher end, expensive machines" only carried at large offices.
meaning yours may not have been enabled. there is a software option for the machine in which you can limit what is copied. some companies don't have it. some do. this is not available on every single model of every single unit made by every single company. and i can tell you, that when the HR person accidentally copied my passport on the wrong machine, it cut off due to what she was copying. there are now signs all over the machine stating not to use it for such and such because of said software.
the "may not" and the "can not" is, i'm sure, 1) to avoid being sued due to someone using it to counterfit regardless as to whether or not they "can't" or "shouldn't", 2) serve as a deterrant for would-be counterfiters, and 3) as a reminder that you may put the machine offline.
call BS all you want, but i have to deal with it at least once a month from a new hire not reading the frilling signs.
Posts: 12 | From: New York | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
years ago in school my friend made copies of bank notes with his scanner (new technology at the time domestically speaking) with no trouble. They didn't look great, but from a distance were effective. He would drop them in the canteen at lunch and we would sit and watch the action = [the look of surprise and greed in the victims eye] followed by [the furtive and sneaky look around: 'has anyone else seen it?'] followed by [a quick but forced casual pace to the note to pick it up before anybody else] followed by [ the bitter look of disappointment, then annoyance at the realisation its a fake note.]
This was usually followed by the victim turning around to find my friends and I laughing our farkin heads off at them. What cruel games children play.
Also, aussie notes rock. When the first plastic ones came out I put a whole bunch in the oven - they shrink and go hard. Punch a hole in them first andyou can use them as keyrings.
-------------------- yugyug.com guykeulemans.com Posts: 11 | From: Tokyo | Registered: Feb 2006
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What would happen to someone if they inadvertently tried to spend one of these bogus bills, but they didn’t realize it until they were “caught”? A totally made-up example:
Mike decides to copy a crisp new 20 dollar bill on the high-quality copier at work. His copies turn up better than expected, so he prints off 10 of them. After he gets off his shift, Mike wanders down to the local grocery store and buys a pack of cigarettes, paying with his phony (but not terribly suspicious-looking) bill. No flags go up, no red lights flash, and he’s handed 15 dollars and change of legitimate cash. The fake 20 dollar bill goes on top of the others in the cashier’s drawer. Mike has clearly committed at least one crime.
At the grocery store, standing in line behind Mike, is our hapless hero named Dan. Dan waits as his items are scanned, pulls out his debit card, swipes it, and requests 20 dollars in cash back*. The cashier pushes the right buttons, reaches in the drawer, and hands Dan the first 20 dollar bill from the stack - the counterfeit one that Mike had paid with. Dan walks out with his groceries and an illegal 20 dollar bill, even though he doesn’t know it.
The next day Dan decides to balance his check book and make a deposit at the bank. Along with some fives and singles, Dan hands over the phony 20 dollar bill. The teller at the bank, being more diligent and familiar than the grocery store clerk, thinks something looks wrong with the bill. She pulls out one of those pens for testing, swipes it, and immediately the line shows up. Dan has just been caught trying to deposit a counterfeit banknote. Has he committed a crime? What would happen to him?
If he’s able to prove that he didn’t manufacture the bill, and that he really had no idea it was fake, does he get his 20 dollars back? Is he just SOL for being in the wrong place at the wrong time? And if someone was to pay him back, who would it be?
K “If I even had 20 bucks, I’d worry more about it” DS
*I’m not sure if it’s like this everywhere, but almost if not all of my debit transitions in stores and gas-stations have offered the choice of getting cash back, with that amount tacked on to my total. Sometimes there is a small fee.
-------------------- I dunno, I like the same qualities in a man as I want in a dog. Big, happy, friendly, and hairy. Not too much slobber either. ~Sue Bee Posts: 140 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Jul 2004
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About 5 years ago one of my employees (age 17) was arrested for scanning and printing $20 bills and spending the fakes. One was accepted at a fast food restaurant and one at a grocery store.
The Secret Service showed up at his house on a Saturday morning to get him. After it was all said & done, he ended up with probation.
I don't know what equipment he used for scanning and printing, though.
What an idiot.
-------------------- Also...I can kill you with my brain. ~River Tam Posts: 37 | From: Fort Worth, TX | Registered: Aug 2005
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KDS, it is my understanding that Dan is SOL about getting his $20 back. If he can prove that he got it from the grocery store, he *might* try to claim the money from them, but I don't think he'd have much luck. If the Secret Service can track down Mike and get a conviction, they might include restitution so Mike would have to pay back Dan.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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-------------------- "Accompanied by the ghosts of dolphins, the ghost of a ship sailed on..." Terry Pratchett Posts: 660 | From: Gainesville, FL | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KDS: Has he committed a crime? What would happen to him?
No, he is the unwitting victim of a crime, in a third-handed kind of way.
quote:If he’s able to prove that he didn’t manufacture the bill, and that he really had no idea it was fake, does he get his 20 dollars back? Is he just SOL for being in the wrong place at the wrong time? And if someone was to pay him back, who would it be?
No, yes, no one. Unfortunately, if you accept a fake bill, you are on the hook for it. Now, if you are a very good customer of the bank, they may replace it for you for good customer relations, but they are not legally obligated to do so. You are just SOL. Bummer, huh?
Edited because I seriously messsed up the quoting.
-------------------- "The little local company I buy from has CHEAP shipping and I have met their goats." (snapdragonfly)
"And that's one lost erection I'll never get back! You hear me Dan! I'm owed an erection!" (I'mNotDedalus) Posts: 2658 | From: California | Registered: Jul 2005
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Apart from the fraud problem with scanning/printing banknotes for spending, there's also a coptright issue with some currencies. It can be an offence to even photograph notes (and some coins) since the copyright of the artwork belongs to someone.
Secondly, am I the only person who gets offended by till jockeys checking every note I spend? OK, I'm a slightly scruffy chap and used to be a lot worse, so may have attracted a little suspicion. I also am old fashionned enough to still use cash for almost all shop transactions (under £100). I have twice been given fake notes - once from an ATM (Sorry sir, it can't have come from our machine, we check them all....) and once, a shop (who had scanned the £20 I paid with) then gave me back a fake £5. As is my habit, if a shop scans or pen checks MY money, I do the same to my change - this time I caught the fraud. I just hope the next person in the queue didn'y get stiffed for the fiver - if I hadn't been in a hurry, I would have demanded the manager removed it.
Just This Guy (Who Doesn't Trust Anything He Can't Throw) You Know...
-------------------- Many a True Word Spoken in Jest! Posts: 73 | From: Devon, UK | Registered: Nov 2005
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