posted
According to experts, several printer companies quietly encode the serial number and the manufacturing code of their color laser printers and color copiers on every document those machines produce. Governments, including the United States, already use the hidden markings to track counterfeiters.
posted
In 1994, I worked on a print server for a color laser copier. I noticed the seemingly random spray of yellow dots on the output under 30x magnification. At first I thought it was a problem with our software. But it wasn't. It was, indeed, an anti-counterfeiting scheme.
More sophisticated schemes are now in use that allow the copier to detect a bank note and block the output.
Unfortunately, what can be used to track criminals may be used to track law-abiding citizens. I'm not quite sure how I feel about the privacy implications of this technology. It's always sort-of bothered me.
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quote:Originally posted by Ouch My Ankle: Unfortunately, what can be used to track criminals may be used to track law-abiding citizens. I'm not quite sure how I feel about the privacy implications of this technology. It's always sort-of bothered me.
Don't register your printer, or better yet, buy it second hand.
-------------------- "Chuck E. Cheese called. They want their band back."
quote:Unfortunately, what can be used to track criminals may be used to track law-abiding citizens.
But that's true of just about any registration scheme. I doubt many people feel we should eschew issuing driver's licenses or requiring license plates on automobiles because they can be used to track law-abiding citizens as well as criminals.
quote:Originally posted by snopes: But that's true of just about any registration scheme. I doubt many people feel we should eschew issuing driver's licenses or requiring license plates on automobiles because they can be used to track law-abiding citizens as well as criminals.
That's a good point. No argument here. But at least you know up front that your car or boat or gun or anything else you have to register can ultimately lead the authorities to you.
The thing that sort-of bothered me was that printer manufacturers slipped this scheme into their products without telling anyone. But, at the end of the day, I felt as though only counterfeiters needed to worry about it.
So I haven't really lost any sleep over this. It's all part of the precarious balancing act between personal liberty and public good.
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quote:Unfortunately, what can be used to track criminals may be used to track law-abiding citizens.
But that's true of just about any registration scheme. I doubt many people feel we should eschew issuing driver's licenses or requiring license plates on automobiles because they can be used to track law-abiding citizens as well as criminals.
- snopes
I think tracking photocopies is a bit more upsetting since it restricts or eliminates the ability for someone to safely or anonymously print material that is critical of the government.
Though I suppose this is not a huge issue, since the very concept of activism (the real sort, not bitching about Bush on message boards) is an alien and often offensive concept to most Americans. Though I suppose things have always been this way.
-A
-------------------- Thinking about New England / missing old Japan Posts: 2603 | From: Virginia | Registered: Mar 2001
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damsa
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
quote:Originally posted by Finite Fourier Alchemy:
quote:Originally posted by snopes:
quote:Unfortunately, what can be used to track criminals may be used to track law-abiding citizens.
But that's true of just about any registration scheme. I doubt many people feel we should eschew issuing driver's licenses or requiring license plates on automobiles because they can be used to track law-abiding citizens as well as criminals.
- snopes
I think tracking photocopies is a bit more upsetting since it restricts or eliminates the ability for someone to safely or anonymously print material that is critical of the government.
Though I suppose this is not a huge issue, since the very concept of activism (the real sort, not bitching about Bush on message boards) is an alien and often offensive concept to most Americans. Though I suppose things have always been this way.
-A
Except this will catch very few good counterfeiters and will probably prosecute grandparents who copies pics of their grand kids' photos to give to their friends.
I think this is a huge issue. If this requirement were on all forms of communication. I see a slippery slope.
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posted
Wait, we would grandparents be prosecuted for photocopying pics of their grandkids?
But anyway, but I have problems with this too. Mostly because of the secrecy with which it was done, but also because I find it deeply troubling that more and more electronics, my own property is being programmed to have an "agenda" that may not match my own.
That includes windows activation, DVD region codes, and so forth, but this one is particularly worrisome since it was apparently sanctioned, not just allowed, by the government.
Posts: 2352 | From: California | Registered: May 2001
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damsa
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
quote:Originally posted by Wizard of Yendor: [QB] Wait, we would grandparents be prosecuted for photocopying pics of their grandkids?
If you go to a professional photographer, they generally hold copyrights to the pics. Let's say I have kids, I don't, I take a family protrait and send a few pics to my parents. The grandparents, being the proud grandparents, decide to scan a few pics and share them with other relatives and such.
Well, if the original photographer, if they were jerks, can sue the grand parent's for copyright infringement. They can technically do it now, but with fingerprinting on the scan, you can more easily go after that high school kid that scanned it for the grandparents or the Walmart that scanned it for you.
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quote:Originally posted by damsa: If you go to a professional photographer, they generally hold copyrights to the pics. Let's say I have kids, I don't, I take a family protrait and send a few pics to my parents. The grandparents, being the proud grandparents, decide to scan a few pics and share them with other relatives and such.
Well, if the original photographer, if they were jerks, can sue the grand parent's for copyright infringement. They can technically do it now, but with fingerprinting on the scan, you can more easily go after that high school kid that scanned it for the grandparents or the Walmart that scanned it for you.
Sorry to veer off-topic, but wanted to add 2 cents here.
That's exactly why I refuse to use the services of any photographer that doesn't release full rights to the photos.
My spouse and I found a photographer for our wedding who had a set package price that included one full set of prints and all the negatives (with full copyrights). To top it off, he was cheaper than other photographers that worked in the more standard fashion (keeping the copyrights and negatives). Our pictures were outstanding, and we've recommended the photographer time and time again to friends.
Okay, back on topic.
-------------------- "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005
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Ouch My Ankle
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
quote:Originally posted by Finite Fourier Alchemy: I think tracking photocopies is a bit more upsetting since it restricts or eliminates the ability for someone to safely or anonymously print material that is critical of the government.
Hmmm...
Perhaps this technology bothers me a bit more than I originally thought. I suppose I'd feel better about it if there were legislation in place to make sure it's only used for anti-counterfeiting measures.
Of course that goes out the window when the magic words are spoken: "national security."
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quote:Originally posted by Milhouse Van Houten: That's exactly why I refuse to use the services of any photographer that doesn't release full rights to the photos.
If you find a reasonably priced, kid-friendly studio that does this, I'd be all ears.
Virtually every photo studio I know of retains the copyright. I have a really hard time paying $20-$30 per pose for pictures taken with a digital camera only slightly better than the one I own. But then I don't have a photo studio nor the know-how to take great pictures of little Rehcsif Jr...
posted
(Maybe Off-Topic), but it seems to me that the Copyright problem is only rearing its head because of digital photos and color copiers. Back in the day you'd get school/wedding/Sears Portrait Studio photos and if you wanted more you'd order more. There were no photo quality printers handy at every desktop or drugstore. Now that there are, we see a cheaper alternative oh-so-close within reach but for that damned copyright.
So, in other words, the problem was always there but was never before really an issue for the layperson. You couldn't legally copy something, but so what, you had no practical means to do so anyway.
-------------------- As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly. Posts: 1679 | From: Illinois | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dogwater: So, in other words, the problem was always there but was never before really an issue for the layperson. You couldn't legally copy something, but so what, you had no practical means to do so anyway.
Not to nitpick, but there was always a practical means -- not quite as easy as today, but just about any photo studio could make copies of a print. They'd basically take a picture of the print (on a copy stand) and then make prints of that. The same copyright issues applied then.
posted
I think you'll have a hard time getting a photographer to release the rights, simply because I don't think it's such a big issue to them (I doubt they have the necessary contracts ready). And, on the other hand, I can't see this becoming a big issue (a little one, with isolated cases, sure, but not a big one).
Simply put, any photographer suing a customer for making a copy of a picture will be commiting professional suicide. I cannot even begin to imagine the outrage that would cause --bad for business, I'm telling you.
-------------------- "The system would also let you send your picture and contact details to a rough trade gay contact mailing list saying you like to be surprised with power tools in a non-consensual role play scenario – but that doesn’t mean you SHOULD do it.!" Posts: 298 | From: Monterrey, Mexico | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mr. Baggins: Simply put, any photographer suing a customer for making a copy of a picture will be commiting professional suicide. I cannot even begin to imagine the outrage that would cause --bad for business, I'm telling you.
You've obviously never dealt with a company like LifeTouch, which along with their own studios, runs those in Target, JCPenny, and Flash Digital Portraits. I have no doubt in my mind they'd prosecute copyright infringement, which is essentially theft...
posted
Just a brief follow-up on the color laser printer document tracking issue. The Electronic Frontier Foundation has published a tool to help you decode the tracking information encoded in Xerox DocuColor color laser output. It seems to track date, time and the serial number of the printer.
It has always seemed to me that the people that are worried the most about this kind of tracking and coding are the ones that have something to worry about. Why not just obey the law and don't infringe on copyright and you would have nothing to worry about. Simple as that.
-------------------- "I'm looking over your shoulder, but only because I've got your back" -Stephen Colbert Posts: 468 | From: Raleigh, NC | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Because its not as simple as that. Now at the moment I have very little to worry about, anything printed from my printer is fair-game to be assigned to me. However, imagine his scenario.
1) A governement division is being underhand, money is going places it shouldn't and corners are being cut. Those higher up the government who know about this turn a blind eye, it saves a bit of money, keeps those who will benifit them favourable and as long as no one finds out it will be no skin of their nose. Someone internal to this finds out and decides to act as a whistle-blower. A letter is drafted and sent anonomously to a journalist, further up government or elsewhere.
Now the problem is that our informat can be identified by whoever gets hold of that letter, be it the government office under scrutiny or a journalist keen to spill the beans. Access to registration databases isn't necessary if you have only a few suspects and samples of their printouts.
Its not just the guilty that need to worry about their privacies and freedoms. Of course, their is often a conflict between security and personal freedoms, where you decide to draw the line is your choice. (I suppose in this case one solution would be to cut the dots off, probably the reason that they don't advertise their presence.
quote:Originally posted by MapMaker: It has always seemed to me that the people that are worried the most about this kind of tracking and coding are the ones that have something to worry about. Why not just obey the law and don't infringe on copyright and you would have nothing to worry about. Simple as that.
Where should we draw the line then? The governement could catch many more criminals if they:
open and read all our mail
Had direct access to our computers, over the internet, and could scan our hard drives every night
Could come into our homes, workplaces, and cars, and perform random searches
Tapped our phones
Kept a log of exactly where each and every dollar of our income gets spent
And why should we care? After all, if we're law-abiding citizens, we should have nothing to hide, right? /sarcasm
quote:Originally posted by James G.: I suppose in this case one solution would be to cut the dots off, probably the reason that they don't advertise their presence.
Unfortunately it's not that simple. According to the EFF's docu, the Xerox method (and likely the others) are repeated throughout the page, approximately one dot-code per inch. The code will be anywhere on the page there is white space, including between letters of text and in graphics.
posted
This sort of thing makes me very uncomfortable. I'm not doing anything people get prosecuted for (although I must admit to some file-sharing), but I take the right to privacy very seriously. I've even been thinking trying to write a program that encrypts e-mails*, although all the e-mails I write are along the lines of "Would you like to get dinner with me today?"
*I wouldn't trust the publically-avaliable stuff, since the government has shown a tendency to make sure that that has backdoors that allow them to decode it included.
-------------------- Fools! You've over-estimated me! Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Troodon: This sort of thing makes me very uncomfortable. I'm not doing anything people get prosecuted for (although I must admit to some file-sharing), but I take the right to privacy very seriously. I've even been thinking trying to write a program that encrypts e-mails*, although all the e-mails I write are along the lines of "Would you like to get dinner with me today?"
I don't do anything that would be considered illegal by a large majority of the population either, but it's the kind of mentality that, lets say, if there were camera's inside the computer monitors or T.V.s recording out every movement. Do you really want people watching you sing aloud to yourself, think aloud to yourself...personal thoughts and such.
Sure, this kind of thing if done right would cut back on counterfeiting and pretty much most crimes. But if done either way, right or wrong, it's a terrible invasion of privacy. Then the freedom fighters pop up, and a new revolution starts. From then on in, everything starts to look like a really badly acted Monday morning adventure show.
-Boots
-------------------- Come on! Ninja kick the damn rabbit! Posts: 273 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Troodon: I've even been thinking trying to write a program that encrypts e-mails*, ....
*I wouldn't trust the publically-avaliable stuff, since the government has shown a tendency to make sure that that has backdoors that allow them to decode it included.
Use PGP then. The source code is available online, and anyone can inspect it for backdoors. It is over ten years since PGP became available, and there has never been a publicly disclosed crack of it. Add to this the fact that you generate your own keys, and I think you could be assured that it is secure.
-------------------- I like free speech. It lets me know who the idiots are. Posts: 407 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
That's actually along the lines of what I was thinking, except I was going to try to implement PGP on my own based on a book I have about it. I guess just downloading the code and reading through it would be easier.
-------------------- Fools! You've over-estimated me! Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Troodon: That's actually along the lines of what I was thinking, except I was going to try to implement PGP on my own based on a book I have about it. I guess just downloading the code and reading through it would be easier.
The advantage of something like PGP over "roll your own" is that, for more than a decade, many people have been pouring over the PGP code, making sure it's secure. When you roll your own, even if you have a few people evaluate your code, you don't have that kind of QA testing going on, so one little error and you're whole security could come tumbling down...
quote:Originally posted by Troodon: That's actually along the lines of what I was thinking, except I was going to try to implement PGP on my own based on a book I have about it. I guess just downloading the code and reading through it would be easier.
The advantage of something like PGP over "roll your own" is that, for more than a decade, many people have been pouring over the PGP code, making sure it's secure. When you roll your own, even if you have a few people evaluate your code, you don't have that kind of QA testing going on, so one little error and you're whole security could come tumbling down...
-Tim
Agreed. Even if you actually have the intellectual capacity to write your own public/private key algorithm and an application to use it, (a thing which I don't think has ever been done by a single person) it would almost assuredly be so flawed as to be useless. And if it wasn't, it would be so untested as to be useless.
Notwithstanding the fact you have to convince other people to use this program if you want them to read your Emails.
I have PGP 6.5.8 (free!) on my PC and I've been using different versions of PGP off and on since around 1995, I think. I still have a semi-secure key from 1998 that I use sparingly.
I don't keep in touch with too many encryption enthusiasts, so I don't get to use it much, sadly. I remember Eudora had a really nice PGP plugin.
-------------------- Thinking about New England / missing old Japan Posts: 2603 | From: Virginia | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
The thing is, if you're going to use encryption, you might as well be paranoid (because otherwise there is no point in using encryption). If you are paranoid, you can't assume that any pre-compiled program that you get is really secure. You actually have to see the code and compile it yourself. Furthermore, you have to do this at every stage of the e-mail sending process: if your encryption program plugs into a larger e-mail handling program, then even if the encryption program itself checks out, you still have to check out the larger program that it plugs into to make sure that it is actually being used correctly by that program.
-------------------- Fools! You've over-estimated me! Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004
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