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Author Topic: Israel and Jerusalem facts
Steve
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
A Zionist is anyone who supports an Israeli state.

OK, so what's aword for someone who supports an Israeli state that isn't anti-Semitic?

I didn't quote the rest of your post in order to give you plausible deniability. I'll let you erase it once you realize you're "arguing semantics", which you argue so vociferously against so often.

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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
OK, so what's aword for someone who supports an Israeli state that isn't anti-Semitic?

Errr I don't understand your question. I doubt many anti-Semites support a Jewish State.

quote:
I didn't quote the rest of your post in order to give you plausible deniability. I'll let you erase it once you realize you're "arguing semantics", which you argue so vociferously against so often.
First of all I would never pull the "go back and edit my post" trick, (outside of spelling/grammer or whatever.)

Secondly "semantics" is when you argue the language instead of the topic. When the language is the topic, that's not semantics.

--------------------
"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen

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Steve
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
OK, so what's aword for someone who supports an Israeli state that isn't anti-Semitic?

Errr I don't understand your question. I doubt many anti-Semites support a Jewish State.

quote:
I didn't quote the rest of your post in order to give you plausible deniability. I'll let you erase it once you realize you're "arguing semantics", which you argue so vociferously against so often.
First of all I would never pull the "go back and edit my post" trick, (outside of spelling/grammer or whatever.)

Secondly "semantics" is when you argue the language instead of the topic. When the language is the topic, that's not semantics.

I meant a word that isn't anti-Semetic, not the person. And (yes, I know how ironic this is) you might want to look up the meaning of the word semantics.
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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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*Laughs* I guess I'm an Anti-Semantic. [Razz]

No seriously I think its pretty obvious that when, for instance, the President of Iran uses the term "Zionist Aggression" in one of his many hate filled rants against the state of Israeli, he's really saying "Jewish Aggression."

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"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen

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Steve
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
*Laughs* I guess I'm an Anti-Semantic. [Razz]

No seriously I think its pretty obvious that when, for instance, the President of Iran uses the term "Zionist Aggression" in one of his many hate filled rants against the state of Israeli, he's really saying "Jewish Aggression."

Right. So when people use the term "Jewish" in phrases like "Jewish media" does it prove that the word "Jewish" is bad? I really don't get what's wrong with the word "Zionist" when it's used in a neutral sense.
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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
I really don't get what's wrong with the word "Zionist" when it's used in a neutral sense.

Nothing at all, but when people like the President of Iran use it they aren't using it in a "neutral sense." They are using it specifically to avoid using the term "Jew" or "Jewish" because it makes their racism more obvious.

--------------------
"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
. . . I really don't get what's wrong with the word "Zionist" when it's used in a neutral sense.

The word has been so heavily freighted by use by the Islamic world that it has lost its neutrality.

Remember when "liberal" became a nasty word? Well, the same thing happened to "Zionist," only about a hundred times nastier.

A lot of good words get mangled this way. Remember that "moron" and "imbecile" were originally neutral terms referring to learning capability.

Silas

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NancyFancyPants
Deck the Malls


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Didn't want to post the whole quote. But Troberg, you said, "Israel wants to destroy Hamas and Fatah. What goes around comes around."

Hamas, Fatah, al Qaida, and all the other militant Muslim organizations want to destroy not only Israel, but any people who do not think and behave the way they do. They direct nearly as much hatred at the United States as they do at the Jewish people, which means they also wish to destroy my way of life. I guess being in Sweden, this doesn't concern you much. Many people in the U.S, however, have a vested interest in the shut-down of militant Muslim organizations. Thus, the fervent arguments of many against your long-winded post.

Arab hospitality may be second to none, but there is no hospitality for Jews in the presence of militant Muslims. I don't know where your uninformed opinion came from on this one, but no militant Muslims wish to live anywhere near Jews and completely oppose the existence of a Jewish state. Earlier this year, the current President of Iran suggested moving it to "somewhere in Europe."

The violence in the Middle East is wrong from either side. But frankly, all of it is initiated in Israel by militant Muslims. Most of the time, life in Israel is going on as usual until the next suicide bomber boards a bus or walks into a cafe.

And BTW, I do specify MILITANT. Most Muslims are, indeed, peace-loving people. I saw a most interesting documentary on the history of the Quran, which included a sidebar discussion of the militant factions. The militant groups began uprising around the early 1950's, just a couple years after the establishment of the Jewish state. What a coincidence.

--------------------
And on the 7th day, God said, "Let there be lips!"

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
So by your logic if my great-great-great-great Grandfather lived on the land on which your house is now built, I can have it?
If you have more or less continually fought for it and have some kind of solid claim, then, yes.

quote:
Why do you insist upon calling people who were given a tract of land under international law "invaders?"

By that way of thinking if you can't pay your morgage and the bank kicks you of of the house whoever buys the house is an "invader" because you "still want to live there."

Because people were driven from their homes and possessions, against their will. This is quite illegal, according to the UN declaration of human rights.

quote:
Correct me if I am mistaken, but I am under the impression that very few Palestinians ever owned the land they occupied. It was rented from Arabs residing in more desirable countries.
I don't know if that is true, but it doesn't matter. Even if only a single person owned his land and got it stolen, it would be wrong.

Besides, say that they rented it. Did the owners get proper compensation?

quote:
I love the term "Zionists." It allows people to basically say "those dirty Jews" without looking as racist and bigotist as they are.
Zionist is not the same as Jew. It's perfectly possible to be a zionist and not be a Jew, or to be a Jew and not be a zionist. It's a political and military movement, nothing more.

The word is used even by israelis and Jews, to distinguish those who support that movement.

quote:
Lastly Troberg, my ancient ancestors were native Americans that met and accepted Scandanavian Vikings as members when they orginally landed here in America. Therefore, I am a Swedish refugee and demand that you give up title to your house to me. It is only fitting considering my ancestors were refugees from your country.
Don't be stupid. You have never lived here, your ancestors never lived here. That our ancestors shook hands and became friends does not constitute right to a land.

Besides, it was Norwegian vikings.

quote:
Hamas, Fatah, al Qaida, and all the other militant Muslim organizations want to destroy not only Israel, but any people who do not think and behave the way they do.
and

quote:
Arab hospitality may be second to none, but there is no hospitality for Jews in the presence of militant Muslims. I don't know where your uninformed opinion came from on this one, but no militant Muslims wish to live anywhere near Jews and completely oppose the existence of a Jewish state.
Prove it. Look at the quote I posted earlier in this thread to see what the stance of Hamas is. Fatah is even more soft core. Al Qaida is hardly representative of anyone, if they even exist outside media.

quote:
I guess being in Sweden, this doesn't concern you much
I've lived and worked in Jordan for a couple of years, so this concern me greatly. I take offence when I hear lies about my friends, especially when those lies might very well end up causing them great damage.

quote:
Earlier this year, the current President of Iran suggested moving it to "somewhere in Europe."
Actually, that's morally an excellent suggestion. Punish the nation actually responsible instead of someone who had nothing to do with it.

Actually, Swedish diplomat and member of the royal family Folke Bernadotte suggested this as an alternative to taking Palestine. The result: He got assassinated by hard core zionists who believed they were on a mission from god to take back their holy land.

quote:
But frankly, all of it is initiated in Israel by militant Muslims. Most of the time, life in Israel is going on as usual until the next suicide bomber boards a bus or walks into a cafe.
Do you have any idea at all about what you are talking about? How much random violence Palestinian civilians have to suffer?

quote:
The militant groups began uprising around the early 1950's, just a couple years after the establishment of the Jewish state. What a coincidence.
Militant groups tend to arise out of the need to protect ones people. This is even how historians suspect the first organized armies came to be.

--------------------
/Troberg

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Squoval
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
{Drivel snipped}
quote:
Earlier this year, the current President of Iran suggested moving it to "somewhere in Europe."
Actually, that's morally an excellent suggestion. Punish the nation actually responsible instead of someone who had nothing to do with it.
{drivel…}

How is that a morally acceptable suggestion? Wouldn't punishing a nation punish the people in it, in this case the Israelis? And how is the average Israeli responsible in any way for the conditions suffered by Palestinians? Wouldn't that be punishing someone who has nothing to do with it?

What, pray tell, do you think should happen to Israelis who do not wish to relocate to "somewhere in Europe", but wish to stay within the current Israeli borders? Should they be forced to move? What protections should be provided to ensure harm does not come to them from extremists?

Also, exactly where in Europe do you suggest Israel be moved? Europe is not a small continent, as you know, and just saying "somewhere in Europe" is being rather vague.

I want an independent Palestine, along an Independent Israel, peacefully. Or maybe a single country divided into two autonomous areas. Not a deportation of Israel to "somewhere in Europe".

quote:
quote:
I love the term "Zionists." It allows people to basically say "those dirty Jews" without looking as racist and bigotist as they are.
Zionist is not the same as Jew. It's perfectly possible to be a zionist and not be a Jew, or to be a Jew and not be a zionist. It's a political and military movement, nothing more.

There are Jewish militant groups launching rockets or in any other way using violence against Palestinians?

{hijack}
quote:
quote:
Hamas, Fatah, al Qaida, and all the other militant Muslim organizations want to destroy not only Israel, but any people who do not think and behave the way they do.
and

quote:
Arab hospitality may be second to none, but there is no hospitality for Jews in the presence of militant Muslims. I don't know where your uninformed opinion came from on this one, but no militant Muslims wish to live anywhere near Jews and completely oppose the existence of a Jewish state.
{snip} Al Qaida is hardly representative of anyone, if they even exist outside media.

So, Al Qaida only exists in the media?{/hijack}

quote:
quote:
I guess being in Sweden, this doesn't concern you much
I've lived and worked in Jordan for a couple of years, so this concern me greatly. I take offence when I hear lies about my friends, especially when those lies might very well end up causing them great damage.
How were your friends being slandered?

--------------------
I can't believe it's not Square!

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
And how is the average Israeli responsible in any way for the conditions suffered by Palestinians?
They claim to be a democracy. That tends to spread the responsibility a lot.

quote:
What, pray tell, do you think should happen to Israelis who do not wish to relocate to "somewhere in Europe", but wish to stay within the current Israeli borders? Should they be forced to move? What protections should be provided to ensure harm does not come to them from extremists?
Well, according to the Hamas statement, they would be welcome to stay and live in a Palestinian state. Presumably, they would recieve the same legal protection as anyone else.

quote:
Also, exactly where in Europe do you suggest Israel be moved? Europe is not a small continent, as you know, and just saying "somewhere in Europe" is being rather vague.
Germany.

quote:
I want an independent Palestine, along an Independent Israel, peacefully.
I want a pacific island, where I'm constantly pampered by lots of beautiful women wearing only grass skirts as long as the average golf green grass, where I can sip drinks from coconuts in my palace by the sea.

However, we can't always get what we want.

quote:
There are Jewish militant groups launching rockets or in any other way using violence against Palestinians?
There are plenty of examples of Palestinians getting sniped by "settlers", getting run down by cars, getting assaulted in the streets, getting denied passage to a hospital when in dire need of immediate medical help and so on.

If you think that unprovoked violence only happens in one direction, you need to look closer.

quote:
So, Al Qaida only exists in the media?
As an efficient, working and active organization, yes. I'm sure there are a lot of people who claim to be al Qaida who has never had any contact at all with the organization, but they are not al Qaida. I also seriously doubt that they are at all able to operate effectively with all the heat they are currently taking.

So, my comment were just a reflection that they are nowhere as active/powerful/dangerous/numerous as the media tends to describe them as.

quote:
How were your friends being slandered?
For instance, all the bullshit about various Palestinian atrocities, or broad generalizations of how Palestinians/Moslems/Arabs are. The truth is that they have a very balanced view of the situation, and the extremists that some people try to portray as typical are about as typical as Phelps, Chick or Manson is the typical American. This constant smearing creates an image in peoples' mind that has great potential to do my friends great harm.

--------------------
/Troberg

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Little Pink Pill
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
And how is the average Israeli responsible in any way for the conditions suffered by Palestinians?
They claim to be a democracy. That tends to spread the responsibility a lot.
Democratic governments are responsible for their own citizens, indeed, and Arab-Israelis live very well in Israel. The Arabs who call themselves Palestinians, however, were offered Israeli citizenship and refused it. They hold their own elections and submit only to their own government.

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The technical term is narcissism. You can't believe everything is your fault unless you also believe you're all powerful.--House

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Rhea
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:

Also, exactly where in Europe do you suggest Israel be moved? Europe is not a small continent, as you know, and just saying "somewhere in Europe" is being rather vague.

Germany.


Would you mind elaborating this as little bit? Why Germany? And how?
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Squoval
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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I await his "logical" answer.

--------------------
I can't believe it's not Square!

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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
The extremists that some people try to portray as typical are about as typical as Phelps, Chick or Manson is the typical American.

Yes and that would be an accurate metaphor if the Westboro Baptist Church was also our majority political party, the way the terrorist organization Hezbollah is in Lebanon or Hamas is in Palestine.

To compare the massive social and political power that Hezbollah and Hamas has and the Taliban had, often to the point of being the de-facto or even official leaders of the country, to powerless splinter groups like Westboro is pushing it at best.

--------------------
"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen

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Steve
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Rhee:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:

Also, exactly where in Europe do you suggest Israel be moved? Europe is not a small continent, as you know, and just saying "somewhere in Europe" is being rather vague.

Germany.


Would you mind elaborating this as little bit? Why Germany? And how?
Because Nazis killed the Jews.

And I totally agree with Troberg on this one.

But, to be fair, there were countries that helped the Nazis by, for instance, signing agreements with them. Needless to say, the people in those countries should give all their property to the incoming Israelis.

And I'm sure Troberg agrees with this.

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Steve
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
The extremists that some people try to portray as typical are about as typical as Phelps, Chick or Manson is the typical American.

Yes and that would be an accurate metaphor if the Westboro Baptist Church was also our majority political party, the way the terrorist organization Hezbollah is in Lebanon or Hamas is in Palestine.

To compare the massive social and political power that Hezbollah and Hamas has and the Taliban had, often to the point of being the de-facto or even official leaders of the country, to powerless splinter groups like Westboro is pushing it at best.

I pretty much agree with you here, but Hezbollah's not a majortiy party in Lebanon.
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NancyFancyPants
Deck the Malls


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Troberg, if you really, sincerely believe that any militant Muslim organization is "soft" or exists "only in the media," then you are much more naive than I originally thought.

I have first-hand knowledge of the situation, and I do not sympathize with either group in particular. As I said in my OP, the violence is wrong on BOTH SIDES. But most often, the violence is instigated by the Palestinians, who rear their children to believe that dying for this cause is not only a "mission from God," but an act of martyrdom. Israeli children are not taught this way. And nothing you say will make me believe that they are.

You're living in a heck of a bubble if you don't think that militant Muslim organizations are a problem. Maybe they're not much of a threat where you're from because there's nothing for them to gain by attacking and possibly taking over Sweden. Where I'm from, we've experienced the havoc that these groups can wreak. While you rail about the killing of innocent Palestinians, take a peek at some pictures of those injured on 9/11, Americans who didn't do anything to provoke these people except work in Washington and on Wall Street. Those "innocent Palestinians" were dancing in the street while watching the World Trade Center fall. And that frightens me much, much more than the Jews in Israel.

--------------------
And on the 7th day, God said, "Let there be lips!"

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
So by your logic if my great-great-great-great Grandfather lived on the land on which your house is now built, I can have it?
If you have more or less continually fought for it and have some kind of solid claim, then, yes.
The Greeks have a very solid claim on Constantinople, and have fought for it continually for over 500 years.

Do you honestly believe that it should be a formal NATO/EC policy that Constantinople be returned to Greece?

Silas

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Nick Theodorakis
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:

...
Do you honestly believe that it should be a formal NATO/EC policy that Constantinople be returned to Greece?

Silas

Well, yeah! [fish]

Nick

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snopes
Return! Return! Return!


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quote:
They claim to be a democracy. That tends to spread the responsibility a lot.
George Orwell lives!

quote:
Well, according to the Hamas statement, they would be welcome to stay and live in a Palestinian state. Presumably, they would recieve the same legal protection as anyone else.
That might possibly be the single most naive statement I've ever heard in my life.

If you actually think the Arab/Palestinian conflict with the Israelis is really about who gets to live in a little postage stamp-sized parcel of land in the Middle East, you don't know the first thing about the subject.

- snopes

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Troberg, find a good history of Israel and Palestine - one with primary source documents, that is neutral, and sticks to the historical facts. (some of which you have questioned AFTER I posted with that same information. For example that the people we now call Palestinians were mostly renters on land which their landlords LEGALLY SOLD to the Jews - which is sad for the Palestinians but you know, why the hell should they be the only people in the history of the world for whom the laws of real estate transactions are suspended.)

Because you seem to refuse to accept that the fairy tale, that there was some sort of organized political entity named "Palestine" was invaded and everyone marched out at spear point and all their possessions taken from them, is not in fact what actually happened. You don't have to take my word for it. Do some actual research, unless you don't like to be confused with the facts of a matter.

You are perhaps confusing the situation of the Palestinians, with Krystalnacht or the Pogroms, where Jews were indeed thrown off their land and their houses burned over their head and if they did manage to escape with their lives, that was all they had. But nothing even remotely like that happened in the Middle East to the Palestinians. The Zionist movement (and I do not consider Zionest any more a perjorative than liberal is, which is not at all) obtained their country by BUYING the land, legally, fair and square, from the LEGAL owners, and then they obtained sovereignity legally by consent of the United Nations. - On the very same day, by the way, that land was ALSO given TO THE PALESTINIANS. Partition? Does that ring a bell? So the idea that they were displaced with no place to go is just completely absent of the facts. They could have, all of them, either stayed right where they were and lived in peace with their Jewish neighbors or moved to the area within the lines called Palestine. But instead they declared Jihad. The very next day.

Snopes said it. This has nothing to do with that little piece of land.

The Palestinians are not only not willing to share the land with the Jews, they aren't even willing to share the damn globe. The ONLY action the Jews could possibly take that would make them happy, that would end the conflict, is if they all just jumped off a cliff and ceased to exist. I really cannot blame them for refusing to do that.

--------------------
"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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DesertRat
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earlier this year, the current President of Iran suggested moving it to "somewhere in Europe."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, that's morally an excellent suggestion. Punish the nation actually responsible instead of someone who had nothing to do with it.

Poror choice of words, or Freudian slip? Do you really view the presence of a Jewish state at your border as "punishment"?

--------------------
High on the wind, the Highland drums begin to roll, and something from the past just comes and stares into my soul... --Mark Knopfler

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Would you mind elaborating this as little bit? Why Germany? And how?
Presumably, they recieved their land as some kind of compensation for what they had suffered. It makes sense that those who inflicted that suffering should be the ones to give up part of their land.

How? Well, what about using force, it worked when they took Palestine.

quote:
Poror choice of words, or Freudian slip? Do you really view the presence of a Jewish state at your border as "punishment"?
Nope, but losing territory is.

quote:
But, to be fair, there were countries that helped the Nazis by, for instance, signing agreements with them. Needless to say, the people in those countries should give all their property to the incoming Israelis.
That's too harsh, but if some compensation is to be handed out, it sure stands to reason that those who actually wronged them should do the compensating, not some completely innocent third party who just happened to live near some holy sites.

quote:
Troberg, if you really, sincerely believe that any militant Muslim organization is "soft" or exists "only in the media," then you are much more naive than I originally thought.
Al Fatah has been the softliners, I didn't even know anyone disputed that.

As for al Qaida, do you really think they can operate with a quarter of the world's armed forces and most of the intelligence services hounding them every step of the way. They were a tiny organization before the WTC incident, had a brief flare of popularity and promptly got squished. Today, they are just a scarecrow. Scary, but, on the world scene, harmless.

quote:
But most often, the violence is instigated by the Palestinians
This shows that you understand nothing about what's going on. Instigation, by the very definition of the word, only happens once. In this case, this one event that led to this conflict can be no other than the creation of israel.

quote:
While you rail about the killing of innocent Palestinians, take a peek at some pictures of those injured on 9/11, Americans who didn't do anything to provoke these people except work in Washington and on Wall Street.
This has any relevance at all to the legitimacy of israel? Please explain how...

quote:
Those "innocent Palestinians" were dancing in the street while watching the World Trade Center fall.
Yeah, a handful of people got to represent an entire nation. Besides, there were many non-Arabs who cheered as well. Why no crusade against them?

quote:
Palestinians, who rear their children to believe that dying for this cause is not only a "mission from God," but an act of martyrdom.
Do you honestly believe that? I'm a cynic, but even I don't believe a parent would do that. The Palestinians, just like everybody else, love their children, and their fight is just because they do. They fight to give their children a future.

Check the age demographics of the bombers, there are no children there.

quote:
If you actually think the Arab/Palestinian conflict with the Israelis is really about who gets to live in a little postage stamp-sized parcel of land in the Middle East, you don't know the first thing about the subject.
It is for the people who live there. The rest of the issues have been added by others who are trying to piggyback whatever agendas they have onto the conflict.

quote:
Troberg, find a good history of Israel and Palestine - one (snip) that is neutral
That's a good one. This issue is so polarized that I really doubt there is such a thing as a neutral source anymore.

quote:
For example that the people we now call Palestinians were mostly renters on land which their landlords LEGALLY SOLD to the Jews - which is sad for the Palestinians but you know, why the hell should they be the only people in the history of the world for whom the laws of real estate transactions are suspended.
As I said earlier, most is not enough. If even a single person got his home (or even his dog's house) taken, it's too much.

quote:
Because you seem to refuse to accept that the fairy tale, that there was some sort of organized political entity named "Palestine" was invaded and everyone marched out at spear point and all their possessions taken from them, is not in fact what actually happened.
Don't put words I've never said in my mouth. In fact, I've repeatedly said that it is a non-issue if such a state as Palestine or a people who called themselves Palestinians.

The important thing is that people lived there, and they were driven away at gunpoint. Not only were they driven away, but there were even attacks against the fleeing refugees, for instance a collegue of mine has a bullet scar through his leg after they were strafed while fleeing for Jordan. He was five years old at that time.

I direct the same comment back to you. Do some actual research. Any researcher can tell you the importance of getting as close to the source as possible. Go there and talk to the people who lived through it. That's what I did.

quote:
You are perhaps confusing the situation of the Palestinians, with Krystalnacht or the Pogroms, where Jews were indeed thrown off their land and their houses burned over their head and if they did manage to escape with their lives, that was all they had. But nothing even remotely like that happened in the Middle East to the Palestinians.
Entire villages were burned or taken, the inhabitants sent out on the road on foot (vehicles were also taken), most of them towards Jordan. Another friend of mine had to leave like this when he was just an infant, his mother walking, while bringing what few possessions she could carry.

quote:
They could have, all of them, either stayed right where they were and lived in peace with their Jewish neighbors or moved to the area within the lines called Palestine. But instead they declared Jihad. The very next day.
They had these options:

1. Stay and be killed.
2. Flee, leaving their possessions behind.
3. Fight.

Obviously, they must be racist extremists, because most of the choose 2 or 3.

quote:
Snopes said it. This has nothing to do with that little piece of land.
Then enlighten me. What is it about? What is it about for the people directly involved (Palestinians and israelis)? What is it about for the rest of the world who has put their stakes into this?

quote:
The Palestinians are not only not willing to share the land with the Jews, they aren't even willing to share the damn globe. The ONLY action the Jews could possibly take that would make them happy, that would end the conflict, is if they all just jumped off a cliff and ceased to exist. I really cannot blame them for refusing to do that.
Grow up. Arabs are not the devil incarnate.

Even Hamas themselves, as I've quoted twice now, has clearly said that it's the nation of israel that is their problem, not Jews. They don't want the globe, they want their country back, exactly like the Maquis, the Norweigian resistance, the Yugoslavian partisans or any other resistance in an occupied country.

--------------------
/Troberg

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Squoval
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
{idiocy I'll let others handle snipped}
quote:
The Palestinians are not only not willing to share the land with the Jews, they aren't even willing to share the damn globe. The ONLY action the Jews could possibly take that would make them happy, that would end the conflict, is if they all just jumped off a cliff and ceased to exist. I really cannot blame them for refusing to do that.
Grow up. Arabs are not the devil incarnate.

Even Hamas themselves, as I've quoted twice now, has clearly said that it's the nation of israel that is their problem, not Jews. They don't want the globe, they want their country back, exactly like the Maquis, the Norweigian resistance, the Yugoslavian partisans or any other resistance in an occupied country.

Hmm…
Hmm…

And, for the record, I don't hate Arab people. I don't view them as Devil incarnate. I won't ignore extremism of any kind or excuse it, though.

--------------------
I can't believe it's not Square!

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Jack Dylan
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
However, we can't always get what we want.

But if you try sometimes,
You might just find
You get what you need!

[fish]
Sorry, I just had to add that.

Seriously though now:

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Palestinians, who rear their children to believe that dying for this cause is not only a "mission from God," but an act of martyrdom.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you honestly believe that? I'm a cynic, but even I don't believe a parent would do that. The Palestinians, just like everybody else, love their children, and their fight is just because they do. They fight to give their children a future.

You don't believe that martydom has ever been encouraged in the Middle East? Correct if I'm wrong about the details, but I believe the 'martyrdom revival' began with the Iran-Iraq war. Martyrdom is something I thought was usually associated with Shia Muslims. Shiites, as you know, believe Muhammed's cousin/son-in-law, Ali, was his rightful heir as Prophet. The tradition of martyrdom then comes from his son Hossein who chose to martyr himself rather then face defeat in battle. If you don't believe that a parent could love their child and be proud that their little darlings have become suicide bombers, watch the videos Bill D. provided and watch some documentaries on the Palestinians living in Gaza or West Bank. The parents are usually proud their children have made that ultimate sacrifice.

quote:
As for al Qaida, do you really think they can operate with a quarter of the world's armed forces and most of the intelligence services hounding them every step of the way. They were a tiny organization before the WTC incident, had a brief flare of popularity and promptly got squished. Today, they are just a scarecrow. Scary, but, on the world scene, harmless.



Actually, there is still debate about whether Al-Qaeda really is a small organization or really the larger network it claims to be. Personally, I believe it is a network aiming to connect terror cells and be able to supply them, however I don't think the network is extremely large and yes, you are correct in saying that their 'job' is a hell of a lot harder now.

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They could have, all of them, either stayed right where they were and lived in peace with their Jewish neighbors or moved to the area within the lines called Palestine. But instead they declared Jihad. The very next day.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They had these options:

1. Stay and be killed.
2. Flee, leaving their possessions behind.
3. Fight.



Actually, before those five Arab nations declared war on Israel, the Palestinians (Arabs) had the option of staying and working towards a democratic state where Jews and Arabs could live side-by-side and elect representatives to Government of all sections of the community. Instead though, they chose violence which led to the miserable situation they are in now.

And the only nitpick I have with the claims in the OP is this one:

quote:
13. THERE ARE 22 MUSLIM COUNTRIES, NOT COUNTING PALESTINE. THERE IS ONLY ONE JEWISH STATE. ARABS STARTED ALL FIVE WARS AGAINST ISRAEL, AND LOST EVERY ONE OF THEM;


Technically, Israel started the offensive in the Six Day War of 1967, however the war was the result of the Egyptians stubbornly closing off the Suez Canal and building up their armed forces along the Egyptian/Israeli border.

--------------------
Eppis: Do you know why being a revolutionary doesn't work in this country? Being a revolutionary in America is like being a spoil sport at an orgy. All these goodies being passed around and you feel like a shit when you say no.

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Rhea
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
quote:
Originally posted by Rhee:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:

Also, exactly where in Europe do you suggest Israel be moved? Europe is not a small continent, as you know, and just saying "somewhere in Europe" is being rather vague.

Germany.


Would you mind elaborating this as little bit? Why Germany? And how?
Because Nazis killed the Jews.


quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Presumably, they recieved their land as some kind of compensation for what they had suffered. It makes sense that those who inflicted that suffering should be the ones to give up part of their land.


Sorry, about the hijack, but this keeps coming up and it's bugging me to no end. Why do people still hold modern-day Germany responsible for the Shoah? It's been sixty years and whoever was involved in this is either dead or ancient. Today's Germany had nothing to do with this. The population of Germany is no more at fault for what happened than, say, the Australians. "German" is not interchangeable with "Nazi".
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NancyFancyPants
Deck the Malls


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Troberg, you're an idiot. Speaking with either side, you're not going to get an unbiased opinion. You didn't research anything; you're just going on the viewpoint of one side of the war from speaking with your Palestinian friends. If you can post a link to an unbiased history that proves your many points, I'll take it into consideration. But my guess is that none exists.

--------------------
And on the 7th day, God said, "Let there be lips!"

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
They had these options:

1. Stay and be killed.
2. Flee, leaving their possessions behind.
3. Fight.

First, that's not true. They had the option of partition: seperate Jewish and Arab states. They chose to fight. Secondly, if there was no option to stay and live peacefully, how is it that 20% of the population of Israel is Arab?

pinqy

--------------------
Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
You don't believe that martydom has ever been encouraged in the Middle East?
Sure, but it has been encouraged in practically all nations at war. Examples:

* The kamikaze pilot
* The honor code of the samurai
* The Alamo
* The German and Soviet pilots in WW2 who rammed bombers
* The Old Garde of Napoleon

Glorifying death on the battlefield is a long tradition, and has always been a morally questionable exercise in the grey area between hero reverence and self destruction.

I bet even the israelis honour their fallen.

quote:
The parents are usually proud their children have made that ultimate sacrifice.
Perhaps they are after the fact, because that's what they have to hold on to in order to make it make sense, to make it in some way meaningful. I doubt any parent in any culture would encourage their child to sacrifice themselves in war.

You can see this in most parents who has lost their child in war. It makes it somewhat easier for them to handle.

quote:
Sorry, about the hijack, but this keeps coming up and it's bugging me to no end. Why do people still hold modern-day Germany responsible for the Shoah? It's been sixty years and whoever was involved in this is either dead or ancient. Today's Germany had nothing to do with this. The population of Germany is no more at fault for what happened than, say, the Australians. "German" is not interchangeable with "Nazi".
Quite correct. On the other hand, how many Palestinians alive today were part of the holocaust?

This is why I like to bring up Germany as an example every now and then. People quickly rally to say how unfair that would be, without considering that it's even more unfair as it is today.

quote:
Troberg, you're an idiot. Speaking with either side, you're not going to get an unbiased opinion. You didn't research anything; you're just going on the viewpoint of one side of the war from speaking with your Palestinian friends.
Yes, I know I'm an idiot. I should have learned not to try to convince ignorant people by know.

Sorry, but that statement needed a response in kind.

There are no unbiased sources here, at least no one with any information worth having. Those who have bothered enough to actually find out what's going on has heard enough to choose a side.

I at least went to the source, talked to people who have lived it, looked into their eyes. I trust such an biased opinion much more than an anonymous biased opinion on the internet anytime.

quote:
First, that's not true. They had the option of partition: seperate Jewish and Arab states. They chose to fight.
As state normally don't overlap territory, that was no real option for many.

quote:
Secondly, if there was no option to stay and live peacefully, how is it that 20% of the population of Israel is Arab?
Sorry, my mistake. There should have been an option "Stay and become harassed second class sub-citizens".

--------------------
/Troberg

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Little Pink Pill
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
They had these options:

1. Stay and be killed.
2. Flee, leaving their possessions behind.
3. Fight.

First, that's not true. They had the option of partition: seperate Jewish and Arab states. They chose to fight. Secondly, if there was no option to stay and live peacefully, how is it that 20% of the population of Israel is Arab?

pinqy

Exactly.

Troberg, the option you neglected to mention was that of staying in their homes and becoming fully recognized citizens, with every right and protection offered to Jews. Today's Arab-Israelis live happily side by side, house by house with their Jewish neighbors.

Your belief that Hamas would offer Jews the same equality and peace is--flabbergasting.

--------------------
The technical term is narcissism. You can't believe everything is your fault unless you also believe you're all powerful.--House

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
As state normally don't overlap territory, that was no real option for many.

But you said that "flee" was an option. So why is fleeing to a seperate country an option but peacefully moving to an Arab state was not? And it doesn't even matter if it wasn't a "real option" for many....why was it not an option at all?
quote:
There should have been an option "Stay and become harassed second class sub-citizens".

Instead of the false claim that all who stayed would be killed out of hand? Yes. You're still exaggerating, but it's better than outright lies.

pinqy

--------------------
Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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h0krbhv02
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Little Pink Pill:
Troberg, the option you neglected to mention was that of staying in their homes and becoming fully recognized citizens, with every right and protection offered to Jews. Today's Arab-Israelis live happily side by side, house by house with their Jewish neighbors.
[/QB]

If they are so happy, and already enjoying equal rights with Jews, why do they have to have organizations like this?
Sikkuy: The Association for the Advancement of Civic Equality in Israel

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
You don't believe that martydom has ever been encouraged in the Middle East?
Sure, but it has been encouraged in practically all nations at war. Examples:

* The kamikaze pilot
* The honor code of the samurai
* The Alamo
* The German and Soviet pilots in WW2 who rammed bombers
* The Old Garde of Napoleon

The Alamo is, I think, a poor choice; the men who, at the end, surrendered, were executed (illegally) by Santa Anna.

I *think* that Napoleon's Old Guard is a poor choice, but this isn't my strongest chunk of military history. (Nor is it my weakest...) Did you have a specific instance in mind?

Every war will have a few instances of heroic self-sacrifice, but the kamikaze of Japan and the suicide bombers of today's Near East are quite distinct from "hold at high costs" encounters such as the Iron Brigade at Gettysburg, the 101st at Bastogne, or the Waffen SS at the Falaise Gap.

Silas

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Little Pink Pill
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by h0krbhv02:
If they are so happy, and already enjoying equal rights with Jews, why do they have to have organizations like this?
Sikkuy: The Association for the Advancement of Civic Equality in Israel

Because, as with any nation with ethnic variation, issues are going to crop up, especially when the minority are of the same ethnicity as the people of hostile neighboring countries. Unfortunately, that's the way our lovely world seems to work. But legally, they are full citizens, with the right to form groups like the ones you mentioned to make sure that status is maintained.

And among the people themselves, the non-political ones just living their lives, there is a peaceful coexistence. I've known Arab-Israelis, and I've been in a neighborhood where the Jewish kids were out playing with the Arab ones--and no rocks seemed to be involved. [Wink] From what I've been told, most Arab-Isralies do not want to live under a Palestinian State, especially since most are non-Muslim.

Edited--grammar

--------------------
The technical term is narcissism. You can't believe everything is your fault unless you also believe you're all powerful.--House

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