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Author Topic: Israel and Jerusalem facts
Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Seraphina:
quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
I'm speaking of Saudi Arabia, Iran, and others, who spend millions to support Palestinian terrorism, but little to improve the Palestinian quality of life.

That is besides the point. USA is the richest country in the world, yet they would not be capable to absorb such number of refugees. The trickle of Mexicans into US is absolutely miniscule in comparison. Imagine tens of millions arriving in a very short period of time.
In which case, the entire "Palestinian War" is far more stupid, since the tiny area of Israel couldn't accept the influx of so many millions of people.

Again, I'm saying that the rich Arab nations, while happy to spend tons of money on violence, show little inclination to support Palestine in peace. They send rockets, but not water purification systems.

Silas

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Seraphina
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
quote:
Originally posted by Seraphina:
quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
I'm speaking of Saudi Arabia, Iran, and others, who spend millions to support Palestinian terrorism, but little to improve the Palestinian quality of life.

That is besides the point. USA is the richest country in the world, yet they would not be capable to absorb such number of refugees. The trickle of Mexicans into US is absolutely miniscule in comparison. Imagine tens of millions arriving in a very short period of time.
In which case, the entire "Palestinian War" is far more stupid, since the tiny area of Israel couldn't accept the influx of so many millions of people.
Silas

I was speaking in comparison to the nearly 300milions living in the USA. There are not millions of Palestinians who would want to return. But in any case Israel is happy to take anybody from anywhere in the world.
This war is
A- about selfdetermination of Palestinians living in Gaza and West Bank. There is never going to be peace while the map West Bank looks like Swiss cheese, while a wall is being built such a way that it cuts off even more territory and confiscates more Palestinian land.

B- the right of any Palestinian to travel freely to the land of their ancestors

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Seraphina:
This war is
A- about selfdetermination of Palestinians living in Gaza and West Bank. There is never going to be peace while the map West Bank looks like Swiss cheese, while a wall is being built such a way that it cuts off even more territory and confiscates more Palestinian land.

B- the right of any Palestinian to travel freely to the land of their ancestors

The "land of ones ancestors" argument is absurd. Does everyone with a Polish name get to travel to Poland? Do I get an automatic citizenship in Switzerland, just because my great-to-the-fourteenth-grandfather came here from there?

The descendants of the Mayflower include millions of Chinese in China and Indians in India. Do they all get to come to the U.S., the "land of their ancestors?"

The notion that land is hereditary is even more absurd than the notion that culture is hereditary.

As for self-determination, as soon as the Palestinians accept self-determination for Israel, and stop blowing up marketplaces, Israel will be delighted to accept their new neighbor. But if the "map" of the new Country of Palestine includes Tel Aviv and Haifa, then, no, peace is not possible.

Right now, anti-Israel violence is perceived by most of us to be the principal obstacle to peace, not the West Bank Wall which has arisen in response to violence. No bombers? No Wall. Simple as that.

Silas

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Publius
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
quote:
Originally posted by Seraphina:
This war is
A- about selfdetermination of Palestinians living in Gaza and West Bank. There is never going to be peace while the map West Bank looks like Swiss cheese, while a wall is being built such a way that it cuts off even more territory and confiscates more Palestinian land.

B- the right of any Palestinian to travel freely to the land of their ancestors

The "land of ones ancestors" argument is absurd. Does everyone with a Polish name get to travel to Poland? Do I get an automatic citizenship in Switzerland, just because my great-to-the-fourteenth-grandfather came here from there?

The descendants of the Mayflower include millions of Chinese in China and Indians in India. Do they all get to come to the U.S., the "land of their ancestors?"

The notion that land is hereditary is even more absurd than the notion that culture is hereditary.

You'll get no argument from me.

Of course, this raises serious questions about certain tenets of Zionism and certain policies of the Israeli government. If it would be strange for everyone of Polish descent to get to travel to Poland, why isn't the Israeli government's support for Taglit (birthright israel sic) equally strange? If a Swiss law of return is absurd, why isn't Israel's own Law of Return equally absurd?

If a Jewish citizen of the United States has the automatic right to live in the State of Israel because his great-to-the-fourteenth grandfather was expelled from Judea by the Romans, why doesn't that same right extend to a Palestinian refugee who personally fled the the fighting in 1948?

If the fact that parts of Israel were Arab land 60 years ago doesn't justify any Arab attempt to reclaim that land (and it does not), why does the fact that the ancient Eretz Israel included "Judea and Samaria" justify attempts to claim the land and water resources vital to any Palestinian state?

"The absurdity of the 'land of ones ancestors' argument" even raises serious questions about the UN's 1947 partition plan. That plan granted control of 55% of the Palestinian mandate to about 30% of the population (already up from 17% of the population in 1921). Indeed, it granted the Jewish state control over about a third of Palestinian Arabs. This was done to facilitate large amounts of post-independence Jewish immigration--immigration desired by both Israel and the Western governments that devised the partition plan (many Western governments, unfortunately, were only too eager for their Jewish residents to go live somewhere else).

The proposed Jewish state was thus devised not to match the demographic realities in 1947, but to facilitate a new demographic reality that was tremendously threatening to Arabs who already lived in Palestine--especially the 400,000 Arabs who could expect to find themselves living in a state that more committed to Jews born in Poland than to Arabs born in what was to become Israel.

The 1947 plan is water well under the bridge, and the problems with it shouldn't be used to attack the security or indepdendence of Israel as it exists today. The fact that it did have these serious problems, however, suggests that Arabs rejected it for reasons more complex than an innate and intractable hatred of Jews that sprang up independently of disputes over borders or resources.

That's reason for hope, because it suggests that proper management of borders and resources can allow Palestinians to live in independence and Israelis to live in security. Unfortunately, such management doesn't include granting automatic citizenship to someone whose great-to-the-fourteenth grandfather was expelled from Syria Palaestina at the expense of today's actual Palestinians.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
I'm speaking of Saudi Arabia, Iran, and others, who spend millions to support Palestinian terrorism, but little to improve the Palestinian quality of life.
That's not true. Especially Saudi has spent enormous amounts of money directed towards various humanitarian efforts in Palestine, such as rebuilding homes, hospitals, schools and so on.

--------------------
/Troberg

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Publius:
Of course, this raises serious questions about certain tenets of Zionism and certain policies of the Israeli government. If it would be strange for everyone of Polish descent to get to travel to Poland, why isn't the Israeli government's support for Taglit (birthright israel sic) equally strange?


Very. Very strange indeed.

However, the difference is that Israel *wants* Jews to come and stay. Israel does *not* want millions of Palestinians to come and stay.

The "right of return" is extended by the government of Israel; it cannot be assumed by others on their own accord.

quote:

If a Jewish citizen of the United States has the automatic right to live in the State of Israel because his great-to-the-fourteenth grandfather was expelled from Judea by the Romans, why doesn't that same right extend to a Palestinian refugee who personally fled the the fighting in 1948?



As noted above: because the Israeli government has specifically invited the former, and has not invited the latter.

When it's your own house, you get to choose who you want to come and visit.

quote:

If the fact that parts of Israel were Arab land 60 years ago doesn't justify any Arab attempt to reclaim that land (and it does not), why does the fact that the ancient Eretz Israel included "Judea and Samaria" justify attempts to claim the land and water resources vital to any Palestinian state?


It doesn't. Only a small number of hard-liners want Israel to expand. The majority is in favor of giving up the occupied territories, so long as this is matched by a meaningful and lasting peace.

quote:

"The absurdity of the 'land of ones ancestors' argument" even raises serious questions about the UN's 1947 partition plan.


Maybe so, but, at this point in time, reversing the establishment of Israel would be a *worse* blunder.

quote:

The 1947 plan is water well under the bridge, and the problems with it shouldn't be used to attack the security or indepdendence of Israel as it exists today.



Exactly. Some djinni cannot be put back in the bottle.

quote:
The fact that it did have these serious problems, however, suggests that Arabs rejected it for reasons more complex than an innate and intractable hatred of Jews that sprang up independently of disputes over borders or resources.



Agreed: it isn't 100% anti-Jewish hatred. On the other hand, it isn't 0% either. The Arabs coped with Turkish and British rule without being driven to paroxysms of violence, but Jewish rule has led to extremism and terrorism.

quote:

That's reason for hope, because it suggests that proper management of borders and resources can allow Palestinians to live in independence and Israelis to live in security. Unfortunately, such management doesn't include granting automatic citizenship to someone whose great-to-the-fourteenth grandfather was expelled from Syria Palaestina at the expense of today's actual Palestinians.

I disagree. Israel has the right to invite Russian Jews, Ethiopian Jews, etc. etc. At the same time, it has the right to exclude Palestinian Arabs.

I don't tell you who you can or cannot let into your country. I may *disagree* with your criteria. I disagree with the criteria of my own country! The U.S. still has absurd rules limiting gays from immigrating; this is outrageous, and I want it changed. But it isn't up to someone from China or Peru to compel us to make the change.

Silas

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NancyFancyPants
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Whatever it may claim to be, that editorial is a mouthpiece for one side of the conflict, nothing more. It does not try to give a neutral view or to see both sides. They have an axe to grind and that axe only has one edge.

And this is exactly how I see everything you have posted on this topic to date.

--------------------
And on the 7th day, God said, "Let there be lips!"

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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I have a double-bitted axe. I am dangerous to both my enemies and my friends.

Silas (my axe swings both ways!)

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
The "land of ones ancestors" argument is absurd. Does everyone with a Polish name get to travel to Poland? Do I get an automatic citizenship in Switzerland, just because my great-to-the-fourteenth-grandfather came here from there?

What you're dancing around is citizenship by blood -- "jus sanguinis".

If you change Switzerland to Italy and if your great-to-the-fourteenth-grandfather left Italy after 1861 (the establishment of the state of Italy), then yes.

Volga Germans (and other Aussiedler) also have a right of return to Germany that was automatic before the 1990s.

--------------------
All posts foretold by Nostradamus.

Turing test failures: 6

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer:
quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
The "land of ones ancestors" argument is absurd. Does everyone with a Polish name get to travel to Poland? Do I get an automatic citizenship in Switzerland, just because my great-to-the-fourteenth-grandfather came here from there?

What you're dancing around is citizenship by blood -- "jus sanguinis".

If you change Switzerland to Italy and if your great-to-the-fourteenth-grandfather left Italy after 1861 (the establishment of the state of Italy), then yes.

Volga Germans (and other Aussiedler) also have a right of return to Germany that was automatic before the 1990s.

Very well...by the laws of Italy and Germany. As I said: you can allow *in* whomever you wish.

Why, then, is the rule supposed to be different for Israel than for any other country on earth?

Silas

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Seraphina
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
The notion that land is hereditary is even more absurd than the notion that culture is hereditary.
Silas [/QB]

Exactly, so why should it be the right of Jews to come to this land after thousands of years? Or in the case of Russian Jews, many of whom only remebered they had some Jewish ancestors when they found out they will get a very generous conditions if they come to Israel. In the case of the Palestinians we are talking about people who were born there.
And if Israel wants all the Jews to come and live there; fine, just put them in Haifa and Tel Aviv, not on the occupied Palestinian land.

quote:
Right now, anti-Israel violence is perceived by most of us to be the principal obstacle to peace, not the West Bank Wall which has arisen in response to violence. No bombers? No Wall. Simple as that.
No reasonably minded person would be critical if the wall was being build on the boundary. It is the fact that it is cutting into the Palestinians land that is so objectionable.
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Seraphina
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by KACHINA321:
SO HERE WE ARE ONCE AGAIN DEBATING WEATHER OR NOT THE PEOPLE OF ISREAL HAVE A RIGHT TO DO WHAT THEY ARE DOING. FOR ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE NO FEELINGS OR TIES TO ISREAL YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM GOING TO SAY. THE JEWS HAVE BEEN TRIED TO BE EXTERMINATED SINCE THE START OF TIME.
THEY HAVE NEVER LOST ANY WAR. YOU MUST REMEMBER "RIGHT-MAKES-MIGHT". JUST REMEBER THAT THIS SMALL COUNTRY HAS BEEN VERY REASONABLE WHEN IT USED IT'S MIGHT. PLEASE EVERYONE TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THE REAL PICTURE. ALONG WITH THE PAST AND NOW PRESANT. I DON'T EVEN WANT TO THINK THE WAY IT WILL BE IN THE FUTURE IF IT ALL KEEPS GOING LIKE THIS. KACHINA321 PEACE

The fact is that from the time immemorial different groups of humans have been trying to exterminate each other. The hordes of Mongols have wiped up who ever was in their way, as did Alexander the Great, the Vikings and various others also did their best to kill of American Indians and Australian aboriginals. Hitler was particularly effective in killing people, but do not forget that altogether some 60 million died, in Russia alone some 20 million, and more than half of total population of European Gypsies was exterminated. BUT that has nothing to do with the Arabs. If any other country in the Middle East would behave like Israel does, it would not be tolerated. No wonder Israel is loosing support fast. And unfortunately, all Jews are being blamed for Israel’s actions.
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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Seraphina:
quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
The notion that land is hereditary is even more absurd than the notion that culture is hereditary.
Silas

Exactly, so why should it be the right of Jews to come to this land after thousands of years?

[/qb]
Because Israel wants it that way.

quote:

Or in the case of Russian Jews, many of whom only remebered they had some Jewish ancestors when they found out they will get a very generous conditions if they come to Israel.


Is there any point to this sentence? It's insulting, provocative, unjustified, and double-edged. If somone were to start handing out money to Palestinians who were pushed off their land in 1947, don't you think that the same thing might happen?

Feelings are bad enough already; please don't make them worse by such name-calling.

quote:

In the case of the Palestinians we are talking about people who were born there.



No, the discussion has long since widened to their children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren. The number of people still alive who were actually living in Israel in 1947 has dwindled, as generations do.

(The same thing has happened to the Cuban emigre community in the U.S. A small handful of people are still around who owned land under Bautista; it is their offspring who are keeping the torch of hatred alight.)

quote:

And if Israel wants all the Jews to come and live there; fine, just put them in Haifa and Tel Aviv, not on the occupied Palestinian land.



Actually, I agree: the expansion of settlements into the West Bank was a mistake, and should not continue.

quote:
quote:
Right now, anti-Israel violence is perceived by most of us to be the principal obstacle to peace, not the West Bank Wall which has arisen in response to violence. No bombers? No Wall. Simple as that.
No reasonably minded person would be critical if the wall was being build on the boundary. It is the fact that it is cutting into the Palestinians land that is so objectionable.
What land do the Palestinians consider theirs, and what land do they acknowledge belongs to Israel?

You imply, in your paragraphs above, the Tel Avid and Haifa are legitimately part of Israel. Alas, many Palestinians and their advocates do not agree. Until the borders are formalized, and all sides agree upon them, and upon both nations' right to exist (Israel and Palestine) then no solution is in reach.

Silas

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geminilee
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Joason Threadslayer
If you change Switzerland to Italy and if your great-to-the-fourteenth-grandfather left Italy after 1861 (the establishment of the state of Italy), then yes.

I have to ask, is Great Grandpa very long-lived? Or are we talking about extremely short generations?

--------------------
"Accompanied by the ghosts of dolphins, the ghost of a ship sailed on..." Terry Pratchett

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Agreed: it isn't 100% anti-Jewish hatred. On the other hand, it isn't 0% either. The Arabs coped with Turkish and British rule without being driven to paroxysms of violence, but Jewish rule has led to extremism and terrorism.
There was quite some hatred against the turks, and many of the attacks carried out against them would be called terrorism today.

quote:
And this is exactly how I see everything you have posted on this topic to date.
The difference being that I make no claims to speak for both sides.

quote:
No reasonably minded person would be critical if the wall was being build on the boundary. It is the fact that it is cutting into the Palestinians land that is so objectionable.
And that israel still keeps troops and settlements/garrisons on the wrong side of it.

At least East Germany prevented their people from settling on the other side of the Berlin wall instead of encouraging it...

quote:
You imply, in your paragraphs above, the Tel Avid and Haifa are legitimately part of Israel. Alas, many Palestinians and their advocates do not agree.
Minor nitpick, but still an important distiction: They do not question if Tel Aviv and Haifa are legitimate parts of israel, they are questioning the legitimacy of israel.

quote:
If any other country in the Middle East would behave like Israel does, it would not be tolerated.
Yep, one just have to look at Iraq, it fits quite well.

* Attacks against neighbours
* Attacks against minority groups
* Development and possession of weapons of mass destruction (actually, no such devices have yet been found in Irak)
* Treatment of prisoners is not in accordance with internationally accepted principles
* Harassment of civilian population
* Mad leaders (although less charismatic than Saddam Hussein)

Of course, israel has some other points to add to their list:

* Assassinations of political adversaries, as well as attempted assassinations
* Interference with the democratic process of neighbours
* The most ruthless intelligence organization in the world
* Demolition of civilian homes and structures
* Destruction of civilian infrastructure
* Medical experiments on children of minority groups
* Acceptance of civilian as well as military violence against minority groups

Whenever Iraq manages to get back on it's feet, it's hit hard with all the might the international community can muster. It's like watching one of the Spirit Squad interference handicap matches, but with people getting killed.

However, for some strange reason, israel not only manages to get away with it, they even manage to get the support of some nation, including one of the big heavy-hitters.

Where's the moral in that?

--------------------
/Troberg

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Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Where's the moral in that?

The moral is an old one: "Odyous of olde been comparisonis, And of comparisonis engendyrd is haterede." -John Lydgate (ETA - Thanks for helping me find a new signature!)
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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
You imply, in your paragraphs above, the Tel Avid and Haifa are legitimately part of Israel. Alas, many Palestinians and their advocates do not agree.
Minor nitpick, but still an important distiction: They do not question if Tel Aviv and Haifa are legitimate parts of israel, they are questioning the legitimacy of israel.
Seraphina said: "And if Israel wants all the Jews to come and live there; fine, just put them in Haifa and Tel Aviv, not on the occupied Palestinian land."

This implies the legitimacy of Israel, and that Jews may settle in Tel Aviv and Haifa.

So that's the problem. *Some* Palestinian advocates (yourself, for instance) deny the legitimacy of Israel and will settle for nothing less than its destruction. Others acknowledge that there *is* such a nation, but not necessarily on its boundaries.

Until the extirpationists are stymied and accomodationists prevail, how can there be peace?

Silas (other than the "peace of the grave")

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Squoval
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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How can there be peace? The destruction of Israel, of course! No middle ground is possible, there must be a Palestine including what is now recognised as "israel"! Even if the land that the Jews bought was legally purchased, it doesn't matter, because it was equivalent to marching Palestinians with guns to their backs!

Hamas will give the Jews the same rights as Palestinians, just as "israel" supposedly gives its' Arab inhabitants the same rights as everyone else! However, that is a filthy lie, as "israel" hates Arabs! Hamas, however, simply wants the destruction of "israel" and sees harming Jews as acceptable, but will embrace Jews, nonetheless!

After all, calling for the destruction of a group of people doesn't mean you'll mistreat them!

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Bill D:
After all, calling for the destruction of a group of people doesn't mean you'll mistreat them!

I'm presuming that's your tongue in your cheek (as opposed to a big tab of LSD...) [Wink]

Israel ain't perfect, but they're a damn sight better than Hezbollah and Hamas! Until someone institutes an Edenic State of Flawless Perfection, I'm sticking with the lesser of the two evils.

Silas

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
Until someone institutes an Edenic State of Flawless Perfection...

We're pretty close here in Wisconsin. We just need to get Rep. Sensenbrenner out of here...oh, and destroy the State of Illinois. [Razz]

--------------------
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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Seraphina
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
You imply, in your paragraphs above, the Tel Avid and Haifa are legitimately part of Israel. Alas, many Palestinians and their advocates do not agree.
Minor nitpick, but still an important distiction: They do not question if Tel Aviv and Haifa are legitimate parts of israel, they are questioning the legitimacy of israel.
Seraphina said: "And if Israel wants all the Jews to come and live there; fine, just put them in Haifa and Tel Aviv, not on the occupied Palestinian land."

This implies the legitimacy of Israel, and that Jews may settle in Tel Aviv and Haifa.

So that's the problem. *Some* Palestinian advocates (yourself, for instance) deny the legitimacy of Israel and will settle for nothing less than its destruction. Others acknowledge that there *is* such a nation, but not necessarily on its boundaries.

Until the extirpationists are stymied and accomodationists prevail, how can there be peace?

Silas (other than the "peace of the grave")

Israel has been founded on lie – Land Without People, and on the premise that people whose ancestors left this land thousands of years ago have the right to settle there again.
Logically it should follow that the Palestinians also can claim the right of return generation after generation.
However, I wonder how many Palestinian would in reality want to return to Israel. I think it is safe to assume that most people who were over 20 at the time of Nakba are dead. Those remaining and their children may be dreaming of going back, but if they could, would they? Fourteen years ago daughter visited the country of my origin, and ever since has been talking about going back and live there for year or so, teaching English. Maybe she will do it one day, maybe not, but the point is she can. Just as I can go to live there anytime I want to. This right has been denied to the Palestinians.


Calling for destruction of Israel is not practical, but neither is the demand of Israel to keep their West Bank settlements. It is just ridiculous that the Palestinians should accept that they can only have “their” state under the condition that Palestinians in exile cannot return there, that Israel will keep settlements in middle of Palestinian territory, as well as the land they are now cutting off by the wall. As Israel is imposing ever more suffering on the Palestinian people living in Gaza and West Bank, they are creating more hate in the population. The survival of Israel so far is not a miracle, as some people claim, it is a direct result of the billions of dollars the USA is pouring in each year.
Last night on the news I heard that American people have already collected 150 000 000 for rebuilding of Israel. [Confused] Silly me; I thought all the footage of totally flattened towns and villages, destroyed bridges, roads, hospitals, schools were in Lebanon. [Confused]

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Seraphina
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
quote:
Originally posted by Seraphina:
[QUOTE]
Or in the case of Russian Jews, many of whom only remebered they had some Jewish ancestors when they found out they will get a very generous conditions if they come to Israel.


Is there any point to this sentence? It's insulting, provocative, unjustified, and double-edged.

Silas

I have seen documentary on the recently arrived Russian Jews living in the settlements in West Bank. These people claimed that they were headhunted and not told they are going to be sent to the occupied territory. They seemed to be lost and bewildered, without any understanding of Jewish religion, customs and culture.


quote:
[qb] If somone were to start handing out money to Palestinians who were pushed off their land in 1947, don't you think that the same thing might happen?
I am sure that is true, but they would be returning to a community where they belong.
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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Seraphina:
Israel has been founded on lie – Land Without People, and on the premise that people whose ancestors left this land thousands of years ago have the right to settle there again.
Logically it should follow that the Palestinians also can claim the right of return generation after generation.


No, it does not follow logically. My ancestors lived in Switzerland; I do not automatically have the right to go and live there.

Nations have the right to control their borders. When Palestine becomes a nation, it is perfectly free to accept as citizens people who have fled the region...or to keep them out.

quote:

Last night on the news I heard that American people have already collected 150 000 000 for rebuilding of Israel. [Confused] Silly me; I thought all the footage of totally flattened towns and villages, destroyed bridges, roads, hospitals, schools were in Lebanon. [Confused]

If that is what you actually thought, you haven't been watching the news. During the recent conflict, Hezbollah had been firing rockets at Israel, hitting towns, and cities, and doing a great amount of damage there.

Silas

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
If that is what you actually thought, you haven't been watching the news. During the recent conflict, Hezbollah had been firing rockets at Israel, hitting towns, and cities, and doing a great amount of damage there.

They've been using weapons that can defeat deployed armour technology.

(And Hezbollah has done 1.1bn$ of damage to Israel while Israel has done 2.5bn$ of damage to Lebanon. Hezbollah probably spent less per dollar of damage, though.)

--------------------
All posts foretold by Nostradamus.

Turing test failures: 6

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Seraphina
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer:
quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
If that is what you actually thought, you haven't been watching the news. During the recent conflict, Hezbollah had been firing rockets at Israel, hitting towns, and cities, and doing a great amount of damage there.

They've been using weapons that can defeat deployed armour technology.

(And Hezbollah has done 1.1bn$ of damage to Israel while Israel has done 2.5bn$ of damage to Lebanon. Hezbollah probably spent less per dollar of damage, though.)

I have heard yesterday an Israeli spokesman Mark Regev saying that during this conflict Hezbolah has fired 4000 misiles into Israel, luckily they did not manage to hit any important facility such as fuel depot. Actually vast majority of them landed without doing any damage what so ever. In about the 3rd week into this conflict in just one day Israel fired or dropped 4 thousands of rockets and bombs on Lebanon. Just in the first few days they destroyed the airport, fuel depot which spilled the fuel into the ocean causing an environmental disaster equal to the Exxon Valdez = oil spill in Lebanon
and there is almost nothing left in south Lebanon. Somehow, I cannot see that these figures could be right. Unless Israel's claims of victory are greatly exagerated.

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Publius
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
However, the difference is that Israel *wants* Jews to come and stay. Israel does *not* want millions of Palestinians to come and stay.

The "right of return" is extended by the government of Israel; it cannot be assumed by others on their own accord.

When it's your own house, you get to choose who you want to come and visit.

I'm not sure I agree that it's a case of Israel inviting someone else into its house. If a Palestinian fled his homeland in 1948, he was, in a very real sense, fleeing his house.

I should clarify that, in this case, I'm talking only about Palestinian refugees who were actually born in Israel. Most often, "Palestinian refugees," is used to mean those refugees and their descendants. I , though I think linking the number of those Palestinians allowed to settle in Israel with the number of settlers in the West Bank would be an idea worth some discussion.

There aren't that many actual 48ers left, and in a few more years that particular issue will be truly dead.


quote:

If the fact that parts of Israel were Arab land 60 years ago doesn't justify any Arab attempt to reclaim that land (and it does not), why does the fact that the ancient Eretz Israel included "Judea and Samaria" justify attempts to claim the land and water resources vital to any Palestinian state?
quote:

It doesn't. Only a small number of hard-liners want Israel to expand. The majority is in favor of giving up the occupied territories, so long as this is matched by a meaningful and lasting peace.



I think this is true now. I strongly suspect, however, that Israel's original intent was to annex the newly-occupied territory, much as it absorbed formerly-Arab territory after 1948. Why else would the settlements have been put there in the first place (especially in the given the way they were arranged)?

Unfortunately, I also think that this intent led Israel to stay in the West Bank and Gaza when it wasn't necessary to Israel's security, and when it had the opportunity to withdraw without any chance of appearing to withdraw under fire (though ridiculously stupid and malicious Palestinian and other Arab leadership also bears a lot of responsibility keeping Israel there, too). A lot of time passed between 1967 and the first intifada. But, water under the bridge.

(In a way, I think the Israeli government might have suffered from a "Cuban problem" on the issue. US policy towards Cuba takes the hard-line that it does because the only people who care about our Cuban policy enough to change their votes based on it have been the hard-line exiles. I get the impression Tel Aviv has suffered from the same problem, with the West Bank standing in for Cuba and settlers and similar hard-liners playing the role of the Cuban exiles.)

Even if settlements aren't intended to deny the Palestinians a homeland, they run a large risk of having that effect. If the settlements in the West Bank were to remain as they are today, the Palestinians wouldn't be left with much of a state. And if the settlements stay there much longer, I'm afraid we're never going to get rid of them.


quote:

"The absurdity of the 'land of ones ancestors' argument" even raises serious questions about the UN's 1947 partition plan.


Maybe so, but, at this point in time, reversing the establishment of Israel would be a *worse* blunder.

On this, too, you won't get any argument from me. What I want is to find a way that Israelis who happened to be born in Israel and Palestinians who happened to born in Palestine can each live in the places that they have to live in, without fearing that the other side is trying to keep them from doing so. I need more hobbies.
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react2distract
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:
quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
Until someone institutes an Edenic State of Flawless Perfection...

We're pretty close here in Wisconsin. We just need to get Rep. Sensenbrenner out of here...oh, and destroy the State of Illinois. [Razz]
Well, I'm not liking that idea at all, I must say. I think you should get one of these for that...

[fish]

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by react2distract:
quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:

. . .We just need to . . . destroy the State of Illinois. [Razz]
Well, I'm not liking that idea at all, I must say. . . .[/QB][/QUOTE]
Oh, me neither! My mother grew up in Illinois.

And, as may be appropriate to the topic...I have the legal "right of return" to that state!

Silas (Society for the Preservation of U.S. States that have at least one map-linear border)

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Jolene Griffith
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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Hi Joe,
This is something I'm using for an article for children's lit. I needed something like this to explain to the kids why there can never be peace in the middle east. Now I've registered with Snopes, so I got your homepage for my bibliography. Thanks much. Jolene

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Jolene Griffith

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
I needed something like this to explain to the kids why there can never be peace in the middle east.
While I sure think it will be difficult to ever find peace in the Middle East, I don't think it's a good idea to teach kids that it's a situation where there can never be peace.

Explain the situation to them, put it in a historical context, explain what the issues are and who the major players are and why the conflict is so difficult to resolve. That's good. But going down the fatalistic route and teaching that there will always be war in the Middle East is teaching an unhealthy and counterproductive mindset. We must always try to see a way to create peace, even if it's a long and hard road.

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/Troberg

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Gerard Morvan
Deck the Malls


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Well, Troberg, IMHO, there's as much possibility of achieving pêace in the middle east as there is for me to win the lottery: almost none whatsoever.

In fact, in my more depressing moments (which, I'm afraid to say, happen more and more often), I think that the only chance to get peace in the middle east is by nuking it entirely. After all, for the arabs, there can be no peace in the region until Israel cease to exist, which means that for Israel, there can be no peace in the region unless all neighbouring arab states cease to exist, so why not to what they want to do anyway, and destroy both sides at the same time?

I know it sounds extreme, but I'm 46 years old, and, if I saw some of the things I was wishing for come true (the end of that NFBSKing Berlin Wall, for instance), in the middle east, every time I thought there would be some reason to hope, it has been crushed, and right now, I don't have any hope left whatsoever.

--------------------
"Kentoc'h Mervel !"

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Well, Troberg, IMHO, there's as much possibility of achieving pêace in the middle east as there is for me to win the lottery: almost none whatsoever.
Perhaps, but that's not a productive mindset. To keep trying is always more likely to succeed than to just give in and accept status quo. Hope is not needed to keep trying.

--------------------
/Troberg

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Gerard Morvan:
. . . the only chance to get peace in the middle east is by nuking it entirely. After all, for the arabs, there can be no peace in the region until Israel cease to exist, which means that for Israel, there can be no peace in the region unless all neighbouring arab states cease to exist, so why not to what they want to do anyway, and destroy both sides at the same time?

I'm reminded of a bit from Donna Barr's "The Desert Peach." It's WWII, and a disgruntled German spy, in London, who has just been bombed by his own people, grouses, "Why don't *we* bomb Berlin, and *they* bomb London. We get the same results, and save a lot of fuel!"

What's really sad/ugly is that the current practice of exchanging civilian casualties is terrifyingly close to the Vendicar/Eminiar solution from old original Star Trek.

On the subject of Palestine/Israel, I very rarely agree with Troberg, but here, at least, he and I are on the same wavelength: peace may be difficult to come by, but not impossible, and its pursuit is worth every effort.

Silas

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glenn57
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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Most discussions on the "jews" seem to be destined foe confusion since there is not(imo)a clear understanding of the term and, therefor the nature of the people. To be brief,the term jew is a nickname for anyone of Judah or Judea.Originally Judah is the fourth son of Jacob-Isreal and later a tribe. The people of Isreal were divided into two kingdoms,Isreal (ten tribes) in the north and Judah in the south (tribes of Judah,Benjamin and the scattered Levites). Judah was taken captiv to Babylon and upon return Ezra and Nehemiah document that some were not of Isrealite lineage. No doubt many of these remained in Jerusalem (the capital of the kingdom of Judah) and were not of the line of Abraham and therefor not of the promises and not of the "chosen people". Many of those are the ones Jesus rebuked for they were still there in His day. Check out Rev. 2:9
Our churches today say the present-day jews are God's chosen. Jesus said we will know them by their fruits.

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dont know ubb

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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glenn57: I don't think you have to complicate it that much. This is a political conflict, the religious issue is just used as convenient fuel as the different sides happens to have different religions. This is a common enough phenomena, we've seen it in Ireland, Sri Lanka and many other places.

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/Troberg

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