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Author Topic: The myth of the coathanger
GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
There is promise in stem cell research. However, the wholesale experimentation on these proto-humans is where things get sticky. If you are not willing to do it to a live, breathing child, then I feel it should not be done.

Organ harvesting is done on living, breathing children. If a child has such injuries that they will not recover and are only living and breathing due to being on a ventalatior, then (with parental consent), their organs can be harvested. Also, no experimentation is done on the fertilized ovums. Cells are extracted from the ovums, and those cells are then experimented on.

quote:
ETA: For example, I don't think it is legal to take child (or adult for that matter) in a "permanent coma" and harvest their organs, or do experiments on them that would not lead to its recovery.

You can legally harvest the organs of someone who has been classified brain-dead. Since fertilized ova have no brains, they can't have brain activity and would be similar to a brain-dead person. If you are referring to a persistent vegetative state, then it gets a bit stickier. But people in a persistent vegetative state have much more going on than a fertilized ovum.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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vanilla
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
I still don't understand your "let's draw the line at fertilization just to be sure/I'm all for the MAP" stance. It's a contradiction.

No, it's called a compromise. The fertilization is (for me) the most logical step to declare that a child exists. The thing is, I've read some rather convincing arguments (here) that the simple union of the two sets of genetic code is not "the best" place to put the beginning of life (for protection purposes). The problem is there are no other real "lines in the sand" beyond fertilization (other than implantation). It is more or less a steady development from that point on. However, it is hard to argue for implantation as "the start".

No other lines in the sand? What happened to "birth?" A child does not exist until birth.

quote:
IVF becomes the problem. Here, the blastocyst does not implant (can't, no uterus), but it still develops and can "live" for quite a long time (while being experimented on). Experimenting on something that "could have" been a baby is a real problem with me.

Right now, there is an internationally-accepted 14-day limit on the developmental age of blastocysts from which experimentation can be done. After 5-6 days, IVF implantation is not considered.

If a blastocyte is deemed to not be implanted into a uterus and never will be, how can it be considered to "could have been a baby?" If it is never implanted, it will never be a child.

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I swear, it was funnier in my head.
Yeah, I used to be pink. vanilla_pink.

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by vanilla:
No other lines in the sand? What happened to "birth?" A child does not exist until birth.

So you would support abortion until the day of birth?

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And now for something completely different...

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Rhiandmoi
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by vanilla:
No other lines in the sand? What happened to "birth?" A child does not exist until birth.

So you would support abortion until the day of birth?
Yes. Because I trust in mankind enough to believe that the only people that would exercise that option would really need it.

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

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Spindely Fingers
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Here in the Blue Ridge Mountains, coat hanger abortions were supposedly fairly uncommon in years past. But that’s only because sharpened sticks were not.

It chills the blood, really.

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Armistice Day has become Veterans' Day. Armistice Day was sacred. Veterans' Day is not.
So I will throw Veterans' Day over my shoulder. ...
What else is sacred? Oh, Romeo and Juliet, for instance.
And all music is. -Kurt Vonnegut

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Major D. Saster
The First USA Noel


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What I find even more chilling is the quiet arrogance of that Vox Day guy...

"Christian libertarian" ? My foot. Just look at this moron's face and you know at once who you have to deal with. A dirty little fascist scumbag.

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Desperate, but not serious.

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Here's the thing: who cares how many died or didn't die from coathanger abortions? The simple fact that these coathanger abortions were performed *at all*, resulting in the death of the mother or not, is reason enough for me to feel abortion should remain legal. These things are dangerous wether they result in death or not. Or is the next "statistic" pulled out going to say that coathanger and other forms of illegal abortion never actually happened? There's no reason for a woman to have to take the risk of an illegal abortion simply because some people feel an undeveloped fetus is more important than a fully-developed female.

Just my opinion.

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Midgard Dragon
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Major D. Saster
The First USA Noel


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Exactly, Midgard Dragon,

and what I find appalling is that once again, political opportunism and religious bigotry unite to bring young women into committing these desperate and dangerous acts upon themselves instead of getting proper medical attention.

This is what drives me nuts when I read crap like Vox Day's revisionist brainfarts... something stands in the way of your political agenda ? Just pretend it never happened. This guy really should have a coathanger shoved down his throat along with his bloody lies.

As usual, religion kills, and the Religious Right approves. So much for "compassionate conservatism"...

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Desperate, but not serious.

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Mosherette
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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
Safe, legal, rare. Comprehensive sex education. Elimination of the sexual double standard. Widespread availability and insurance coverage of contraception, including the MAP, without requiring anyone else's permission. Real information about the potential risks of both abortion and its alternatives. Taking the religious agenda out of reproductive discussions. Voting for people who have the guts to work toward this.

quote:
Originally posted by Doug
Safe, legal, VERY rare (only for cases I've mentioned before). Comprehensive sex education. Elimination of the sexual double standard. Widespread availability and insurance coverage of contraception, including the MAP, without requiring anyone else's permission. Full health coverage of pregnant women (okay, ALL women AND men, but I will be specific to this case). Real information about the consequences of having sex (i.e., pregnancy). Voting for people who have the guts to work toward this.

Doug, why do you want to keep a religious agenda in reproductive discussion? I'm not sure what Sikhism has to say about contraception etc., but as I'm not a Sikh I don't really see why that religion should get any say over my reproductive choices.

Edited to tidy up quotes

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Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave

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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Here's a little more about Vox Day.

I'm not surprised to learn that Vox Day is an assumed name. What sort of man would call himself by a name like that - Vox Dei, of course, meaning the Voice of God.

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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If the Christian God does exist in the manner the Bible claims him too, I would think someone assuming the name of Vox Dei will be one of the first people God smites to an eternity of hell on judgement day.

Not believing in that God, I'll just hope that karma takes care of him.

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Midgard Dragon
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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Mosherette:
Doug, why do you want to keep a religious agenda in reproductive discussion? I'm not sure what Sikhism has to say about contraception etc., but as I'm not a Sikh I don't really see why that religion should get any say over my reproductive choices.

Good point. The "religion" I want to keep is the idea that human life is special (or sacred, in religious terms). I would object to the ideas that man is no more than just an animal and should be treated like one.

Beyond that, I do see no reason for religion in the debate.

Note that my manifesto contains things that are NOT part of the "Catholic" POV.

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And now for something completely different...

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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What about the religious belief that cows are sacred? Does this have a role in US law?

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
The "religion" I want to keep is the idea that human life is special (or sacred, in religious terms). I would object to the ideas that man is no more than just an animal and should be treated like one.

What about the religion that human life begins at conception? Because most (if not all) of us share your "religion" of human life. The difference (and where you hold a religious view) is the point at which human life begins.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Major D. Saster
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
I would think someone assuming the name of Vox Dei will be one of the first people God smites to an eternity of hell on judgement day.

Vox Day, Vox Dei... I must be overheating, as I didn't get the pun at once.

Good Lord. [Eek!]

Apparently, this guy really thinks he's the Voice of God.

To me he'd rather be credible as the Mouth of Sauron.

And I thought the french far-right catholic fundies with their latin mass and Pétain-nostalgy were scary...

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
Good point. The "religion" I want to keep is the idea that human life is special (or sacred, in religious terms). I would object to the ideas that man is no more than just an animal and should be treated like one.

Beyond that, I do see no reason for religion in the debate.

There's no reason to put "religion" in quotes, Doug. That idea, that human life is not just "special" but more special than any other life is religious in nature and doesn't belong in the debate one way or another. All life is special. We are no more so special than any other life.

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by GenYus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
The "religion" I want to keep is the idea that human life is special (or sacred, in religious terms). I would object to the ideas that man is no more than just an animal and should be treated like one.

What about the religion that human life begins at conception? Because most (if not all) of us share your "religion" of human life. The difference (and where you hold a religious view) is the point at which human life begins.
Besides that, some of us don't think it is such a horrible thing to go to heaven.

--------------------
I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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vanilla
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Rhiandmoi:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by vanilla:
No other lines in the sand? What happened to "birth?" A child does not exist until birth.

So you would support abortion until the day of birth?
Yes. Because I trust in mankind enough to believe that the only people that would exercise that option would really need it.
Thank you Rhiandmoi, you said it better than I could. If the life of an already born person is placed at risk by a fetus of any age, then the living trumps the right of the fetus in all cases.

Besides, haven't we already determined that those types of abortions are urban legends?

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I swear, it was funnier in my head.
Yeah, I used to be pink. vanilla_pink.

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I am sure that many expecting couples discuss the whole "who would be saved" scenario if only the mother or the baby could be saved in those late term situations. I can't fault anyone for going either way, or for trying to save both. It is an extremely difficult, extremely personal decision, that each family should be left alone to make.

--------------------
I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Rhiandmoi:
I am sure that many expecting couples discuss the whole "who would be saved" scenario if only the mother or the baby could be saved in those late term situations. I can't fault anyone for going either way, or for trying to save both. It is an extremely difficult, extremely personal decision, that each family should be left alone to make.

My husband made it clear to me as I was being wheeled in for an emergency C-section that if any deciding was going to be done I was the one who was going to be saved. I can't remember now if I argued the point or not. But I do remember us talking about where we would bury our baby if the worst was to happen - which thankfully it did not.

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong:
...that human life is not just "special" but more special than any other life is religious in nature and doesn't belong in the debate one way or another...

Why not? Did I miss the rule that religion is not a valid topic?

I think it is a valid topic (or point) as any other. If you want to debate that cows are sacred, go right ahead, I won't stop you.

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And now for something completely different...

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Rhiandmoi
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For the umpteeth time, it is not whether or not religion is a valid topic Doug, it is whose religion gets to be the boss of everyone.

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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Mistletoey Chloe
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The question is not whether or not cows are sacred. The question is whether or not their sacredness should make it into law.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I think the laws should be as permissive as possible when it comes to honoring sacredness. You are more than welcome to venerate whatever you want, and to politely try to convince other people to venerate what you do. It should not be legally mandated what is venerated.

--------------------
I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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LemonLimeade
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
Here's the thing: who cares how many died or didn't die from coathanger abortions? The simple fact that these coathanger abortions were performed *at all*, resulting in the death of the mother or not, is reason enough for me to feel abortion should remain legal. These things are dangerous wether they result in death or not. Or is the next "statistic" pulled out going to say that coathanger and other forms of illegal abortion never actually happened? There's no reason for a woman to have to take the risk of an illegal abortion simply because some people feel an undeveloped fetus is more important than a fully-developed female.

Just my opinion.

But it seems, from available numbers, that since the advent of antibiotics, which greatly decreased deaths, just as many (or even more) women die from legal abortions than did from illegal. (From the things I've read, back-alley abortions were performed mostly by professionals, but were named such because you had to go around the back to access the office and not be seen.) I've never seen proof of actual instance of a coathanger being used, though it stands to reason women used various methods to self-induce if they couldn't find back-alley providers. It just seems abortion is dangerous, legal or not.

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I think there is a wide spectrum of illegal abortion options. If woman had/have money a real surgical abortion by a real doctor was/is an option. Without money or ability to get to a real doctor that provides clandestine abortions, people have to make do.
quote:
Poor women and their families were disproportionately impacted. A study of low-income women in New York City in the 1960s found that almost one in 10 (8%) had ever attempted to terminate a pregnancy by illegal abortion; almost four in 10 (38%) said that a friend, relative or acquaintance had attempted to obtain an abortion. Of the low-income women in that study who said they had had an abortion, eight in 10 (77%) said that they had attempted a self-induced procedure, with only 2% saying that a physician had been involved in any way.


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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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Mistletoey Chloe
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In the year 2000, 11 US women died from complications of abortion, down from an estimated 63 in 1972.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm#tab19

No one knows whether the people who performed back alley abortions were professionals or not. While professionals had more knowledge, they also ran much more professional risk, and had much more to lose.

Is abortion dangerous, legal or not? No. Being pregnant is dangerous, and of the two possible avenues to becoming unpregnant, full-term pregnancy and chldbirth is about 10 times riskier. (We've posted the stats repeatedly: google if you want them again). An abortion is about as dangerous as any minor surgery. If a doctor does it in sterile conditions, that means not very. If someone else does it in unsterile conditions, that can mean quite.

ETA: Note, this will be down-and-dirty math. All #s for the US. Abortion mortality rates, then, approximately 1:80,000. Childbirth mortality 1: 10,000( though significantly higher for women of color). Tubal ligation 1:25,000. Liposuction: 1: 5,000. Vein stripping 1:30,000.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Mouse
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Is there some kind of dare going on, trying to see how many abortion threads we can have going on at once? [Razz]

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"You see? The mysteries of the Universe are revealed when you break stuff." Coop from MegasXLR

"I distrust who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -- Susan B. Anthony

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Major D. Saster
The First USA Noel


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Mouse, are you trying to abort this thread ? [Big Grin]

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Rivkah Chaya
I Saw Three Shipments


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Aaarrggh!

The correct medical term is "vacuum extraction," not "partial-birth" abortion! The pro-lifers invented the term to imply that these fetuses were oh, so close to being live births.

The truth is, that nearly all VE abortions are of fetuses discovered in the third trimester to have a lethal defect, usually a cephalic defect, either lack of a brain, or exancephaly-- brain growing outside the cranial vault. Occaisionally, other defects are noted, like unrepairable heart defects or lack of development of several major organs.

These fetuses would be still-born, or die within days of birth anyway. And fetuses without brains, the majority of VE abortions, don't feel pain. Anyway, usually the heart is stopped with potassium chloride before the extraction begins, so if dismemberment is required, the fetus is already dead.

The VE is not cruel, and a blessing for many parents whose wanted pregnancies are found to involve such lethal defects.

In cases where the fetus is 26 weeks or more, and the mother is discovered to have a condition that makes pregnancy a risk to her life, every effort is made for a live delivery, and the baby is rushed to the NICU. Before 26 weeks, survival is unlikely, but some parents choose to try for it anyway, and are usually allowed to make this choice-- well, not to extremes-- a dr. won't try to save a 12 week fetus. But at any rate, before the third trimester, a VE isn't done.

Regarding death from coathanger abortions-- OK, I'll accept that real unbent coathanger abortions may have been rare, but that doesn't mean that women before WWII who died of peritonitis or septicemia (as listed on their death certificates) didn't actually die of botched or simply unsanitary abortions. And influential families could always get the coroner to lie on the death certificate and list influenza or something as the cause of death.

Anyway, deaths from illegal abortions did happen, and happen still. Around 1989-90, just after Indiana passed a parental notification law for abortions for underage girls, a teenager named Rebecca Bell died from complications of an illegal abortion.

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Rivkah Chaya
I Saw Three Shipments


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Aaarrggh!

The correct medical term is "vacuum extraction," not "partial-birth" abortion! The pro-lifers invented the term to imply that these fetuses were oh, so close to being live births.

The truth is, that nearly all VE abortions are of fetuses discovered in the third trimester to have a lethal defect, usually a cephalic defect, either lack of a brain, or exancephaly-- brain growing outside the cranial vault. Occaisionally, other defects are noted, like unrepairable heart defects or lack of development of several major organs.

These fetuses would be still-born, or die within days of birth anyway. And fetuses without brains, the majority of VE abortions, don't feel pain. Anyway, usually the heart is stopped with potassium chloride before the extraction begins, so if dismemberment is required, the fetus is already dead.

The VE is not cruel, and a blessing for many parents whose wanted pregnancies are found to involve such lethal defects.

In cases where the fetus is 26 weeks or more, and the mother is discovered to have a condition that makes pregnancy a risk to her life, every effort is made for a live delivery, and the baby is rushed to the NICU. Before 26 weeks, survival is unlikely, but some parents choose to try for it anyway, and are usually allowed to make this choice-- well, not to extremes-- a dr. won't try to save a 12 week fetus. But at any rate, before the third trimester, a VE isn't done.

Regarding death from coathanger abortions-- OK, I'll accept that real unbent coathanger abortions may have been rare, but that doesn't mean that women before WWII who died of peritonitis or septicemia (as listed on their death certificates) didn't actually die of botched or simply unsanitary abortions. And influential families could always get the coroner to lie on the death certificate and list influenza or something as the cause of death.

Anyway, deaths from illegal abortions did happen, and happen still. Around 1989-90, just after Indiana passed a parental notification law for abortions for underage girls, a teenager named Rebecca Bell died from complications of an illegal abortion.

Posts: 75 | From: Bloomington, IN | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
PatYoung
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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El Salvador is a country that both bans abortion and goes after doctors and women aggressively. Women who attempt to self-abort and harm themselves check themselves into hospitals as suicide attempts, which does not result in criminal prosecution, rather than as self-aborters.

If abortion is murder, as its opponents claim, then we should expect significant penalties for doctor and woman. Such penalties will drive some women to desperate measures. Those who believe in criminalization of abortion should at least have the courage to confront this likely outcome.

Here is a NY Times article on abortion in El Salvador:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/09/magazine/09abortion.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5088&en=d855d80018cd6c56&ex=1302235200&partner=rssuserland

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pat "Megadittoes Rush" young

THUMP, THUMP, THUMP

Posts: 5442 | From: New York | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Mouse
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Major D. Saster:
Mouse, are you trying to abort this thread ? [Big Grin]

I'm just curious to see if the thread's going to start singing, "Why did you kill me, Mo-ouse?" in a freaky Elmo-muppet voice. [Big Grin]

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"You see? The mysteries of the Universe are revealed when you break stuff." Coop from MegasXLR

"I distrust who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -- Susan B. Anthony

Posts: 2246 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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