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Author Topic: Nazi officers given puppies to kill?
Rexodus
Deck the Malls


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When I was in college, I heard a story that SS officers in Nazi Germany were given a puppy to raise during their training. After a certain number of weeks, they would be required to kill the puppy by hand to demonstrate their loyalty and their resolve.

The story was always told on my campus as backstory for a rumor about one of our fraternities. Supposedly the Nazi idea was the inspiration behind an incredibly vile hazing practice: Every year the fraternity's incoming pledge class was given a puppy to raise as a way to bond and build unity. Then during Hell Week, they were all supposed to kill the puppy. Again, to demonstrate loyalty and resolve.

Both practices - the Nazi one and the fraternity one - sound pretty UL-ish to me. Has anyone else ever heard this?

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Troodon
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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I've heard that story before, but not about Nazis. I think it's a standard legend meant to show how purposefully brutal your enemies are, but it may have a true origin somewhere.

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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I've heard it about:
  • Nazis
  • Spetznaz (sp?)
  • Mossad
  • Army Rangers
  • Navy Seals
  • - insert name of special forces here -
That makes it a UL in my book.

Four Kitties

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Horse Chestnut
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties:
I've heard it about:
  • Nazis
  • Spetznaz (sp?)
  • Mossad
  • Army Rangers
  • Navy Seals
  • - insert name of special forces here -
That makes it a UL in my book.

Four Kitties

And Phoebe on Friends, too!

Horse "Well, almost like..." Chestnut

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Class Bravo
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Along these lines, I recall hearing that during WWII the Japanese soldiers were told (and believed) that American Special Forces units had to kill both their parents in order to graduate their training.

Definitely UL material, and very much along the lines of the OP.

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Senior
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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Demonizing the enemy has always been common. For instance, the following have been printed in various books:
  • During WW2 Japanese soldiers in isolated islands would draw straws, the losers would be eaten by the others.
  • In these same islands, if prisoners were taken (supposedly shot down air crew), the prisoners would be killed and eaten.
  • During the Gulf War, Iraqi troops were hamstrung by their officers to prevent them from deserting.
  • During WWI, the Italian Commander in Chief, General Cadorna, ordered the summary execution of all officers in retreating units (this was in an Austrian history of the war).


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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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I heard the story that the military medics used goats in training -- the officer would shoot the goat and the medic-in-training would have to patch the goat up.

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snoozn
Deck the Malls


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My husband used to be the signal officer for a special forces battalion. He told me that one of their traditions was to for a group of sf guys to kill a deer with their bare hands (maybe knives were allowed, I can't remember, but no guns). I have no idea if this is true.

As for the goats, I remember hearing about that years ago, and it does appear to be true still, here is link from HSUS

I never heard a story like that about a fraternity. A number of fraternities where I went to college had dogs, but they seemed to be pretty well cared for.

snoozn

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Snafu
Deck the Malls


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It could well be true.

I watched a documentary about Saddam's Private Guard (or whichever the ones are that dress completely in black) and when they finished their training they were thrown dogs which they had to tear apart with their bare hands.

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Republican
I Saw Three Shipments


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I remember reading ,in a book series about the holocaust, that the Hitler Youth were required to kill a pet for the before mentioned reasons. I would think that it would be hard to believe that Jews would be guilty of spreading false information about the Third Reich and or the holocaust, but now I'm not so sure.

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by snoozn:
A number of fraternities where I went to college had dogs, but they seemed to be pretty well cared for.

If you call caring for them letting them share their booze.

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All posts foretold by Nostradamus.

Turing test failures: 6

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PhiloPharynx
I Saw Three Shipments


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quote:
Originally posted by Class Bravo:
Along these lines, I recall hearing that during WWII the Japanese soldiers were told (and believed) that American Special Forces units had to kill both their parents in order to graduate their training.

Definitely UL material, and very much along the lines of the OP.

This would be very hard if two siblings went into training at different times. Did they have to kill somebody else's parents? What if only one of your parents was still alive?
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Class Bravo
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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I don't think those things were covered, since it wasn't true in the first place.
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Floater
Xboxing Day


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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer:
I heard the story that the military medics used goats in training -- the officer would shoot the goat and the medic-in-training would have to patch the goat up.

Why do you say would have to as if they are forced to do it? The truth is that military surgeons practice on pigs, not goats, and the reason for this is that pigs and humans are very like each other anatomically. Oh, and before people get too upset about this: the pigs are put to sleep before they are shot.

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Major D. Saster
The First USA Noel


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I heard that puppy story about the SS, too. I'm not sure if it's true, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were.

Recently I saw footage from Sudan where special forces troops were tearing off a chicken's head with their teeth [Eek!] to show the public what kind of though guys they were... the difference being that you don't grow a personal relationship with a chicken as you would with a dog.

You could say that's disgusting enough, but I heard during my service time in the Swiss army that some of our grenadier shock troops were perfoming the same chicken trick as an officer's school initiation test (I have no evidence, as they didn't do that in front of a camera).

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Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet
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I heard the "shooting goats" report extremely recently, if I could only remember where... it definitely wasn't Jon Ronson's The Men Who Stare At Goats although that sounds most likely...

Anyways, here is a "factsheet" from Peta alleging that
quote:
The Department of Defense has operated "wound labs" since 1957... In 1983, in response to public pressure, Congress limited the use of dogs in these labs, but countless goats, pigs, and sheep are still being shot, and at least one laboratory continues to shoot cats. At the Army's Fort Sam Houston "Goat Lab," goats are hung upside down and shot in their hind legs.
The source is given as the Williamsport Sun-Gazette, March 5, 1986.

The US HUmane Society also claimed last year to have "credible information" that goat experiments weer ongoing: Getting their Goat, and urged the Department of Defense to find alternatives.

Interestingly, an earlier Defense Department program involving dogs is also mentioned:
quote:
More than 20 years ago, the Defense Department had a dog program in place in which medics-in-training would apparently shoot their canines, nurse the dog back to health and then finally kill and dissect the animal. That program was discontinued in part because of a public outcry.

Most of what I can find about goats replicates the Peta article, although British military researchers apparently find goats ideal for underwater experiments involving pressure chambers. For those desperate for more measured comment, MP Mike Hancock asked questions in the House of Commons about goat death statistics in the military in 1999: Here and here.

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BringTheNoise
Xboxing Day


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The scenario is depicted in UK horror film Dog Soldiers (about werewolves). At the end of his SAS training, the lead character refuses to kill a dog despite being ordered to by his commanding officer. I have a suspicion that he was supposed to do that, but can't quite remember.

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Hubert Cumberdale
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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What a bunch of pussies. Anyone can kill an animal smaller than them, and in the case of raising a dog then killing it, it would be even easier to kill them since they would have no reason to fear you until the last second. If they really want to show how tough they are they should try killing a or bear or a gorilla bare handed. Heck, even with a pointy stick would be impressive.
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Class Bravo
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Hubert Cumberdale:
Anyone can kill an animal smaller than them, and in the case of raising a dog then killing it, it would be even easier to kill them since they would have no reason to fear you until the last second. If they really want to show how tough they are they should try killing a or bear or a gorilla bare handed. Heck, even with a pointy stick would be impressive.

They weren't (supposedly) killing the dogs to show how tough they were versus a strong opponent. The point of killing the dogs was to show that they wouldn't let their emotions (such as the connection you would make with a creature you raised from its infancy) interfere with them carrying out their orders.
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Michael Cole
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Republican:
I remember reading ,in a book series about the holocaust, that the Hitler Youth were required to kill a pet for the before mentioned reasons. I would think that it would be hard to believe that Jews would be guilty of spreading false information about the Third Reich and or the holocaust, but now I'm not so sure.

I would suggest that this is false. The Hitler Youth were definately not an elite unit. They were an imitation of the Scouts, and when they were thrown into combat during the last days of the war, they were mainly used as cannon-fodder. Most of them would have trouble wiping their own noses let alone killing something...

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A. The Used Car Salesman knows when he is lying.

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Ulkomaalainen
Jingle Bell Hock


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Yep, the Hitler Youth was definitely just some thing were all guys had to go in do become indoctrinated. It was in no time meant to be some camp for getting tough soldiers (although preparing them mentally for this may have happened).

As to the OP, I have heard many stories about what my forebears did, and most of them were way worse. Still I doubt it, for two reasons:

(a) I never actually heard about it, and with my teacher at that time I got a pretty thorough covering of the era.

(b) Dogs were really valued high during that time. While that would strengthen the point made by the (in my opinion) UL, it would have seemed to most of them like being homosexual to that Phelps (sp?) guy I've recently encountered a report about. It's just against your core values. It would confuse people the hell, whereas killing people on the other hand wasn't, sad as this is.

But I may be mistaken, I have neither found proof nor material supporting the unlikeliness in a quick search.

Ulkomaalainen

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Jimmy Jive
I Saw Three Shipments


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quote:
Originally posted by Class Bravo:
Along these lines, I recall hearing that during WWII the Japanese soldiers were told (and believed) that American Special Forces units had to kill both their parents in order to graduate their training.

Definitely UL material, and very much along the lines of the OP.

This reminds me, I remember watching a documentary on WW2, mainly the Japanese theatre, a few years ago, where they were showing all this never before seen footage from the army camera men, that went along with the squads.

Anyways, there was this one part, where this group of marines were trying to get or rescue (don't remember the exact reason) this woman with an infant, who was up on a cliff edge. Because she was scared of them, she kept going higher and higher, till she had no where to go. At this point she threw her infant child over the cliff.

The narrator said this was because the Japanese had stories that the US marines ate infants.

Now I'm not saying that's true, obviously. But it showed what people under stress believed.

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Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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8Ball, I think I have seen some of the footage you refer to. There is a little more on civilian suicides at the end of the war on this BBC History site:

quote:
To the horror of American troops advancing on Saipan, they saw mothers clutching their babies hurling themselves over the cliffs rather than be taken prisoner.

Not only were there virtually no survivors of the 30,000 strong Japanese garrison on Saipan, two out of every three civilians - some 22,000 in all - also died.

This Reuters article also deals with the civilian suicides on the cliffs of Saipan (known as "Banzai Cliff" and "Suicide Cliff").

quote:
"They were taught that when the Americans landed, it would be a disgrace to live. They were obliged to do it," said Kanie, 56, as he gazed down at the sea beneath a glaring sun.
quote:
Propaganda about certain rape and torture if taken prisoner by Americans was also widespread.


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I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war.

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Senior
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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I previously wrote
quote:
Originally posted by Senior:
Demonizing the enemy has always been common. For instance, the following have been printed in various books:...
  • During WWI, the Italian Commander in Chief, General Cadorna, ordered the summary execution of all officers in retreating units (this was in an Austrian history of the war).

I have since discovered that Cadorna did order the summary execution of all officers in retreating units. John Keegan mentions this in The First World War, page 227, giving as his source J Whittam's The Politics of the Italian Army, page 194. John Edmonds' Military Operations in Italy, pages 55-6, also makes the claim as does Allan Millet & Williamson Murray's authoriative Military Effectiveness, Volume I, page 331.

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abqjbrick
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Senior:
Demonizing the enemy has always been common. For instance, the following have been printed in various books:
  • In these same islands, if prisoners were taken (supposedly shot down air crew), the prisoners would be killed and eaten.

In James Bradley's book Flyboys he recounts the eating of downed fliers livers by the Japanese genral and staff on Chichi Jima. These came to light during the Japanese war crimes trials after WWII.
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