posted
Drawn on a wooden frame to the execution site, hanged until almost dead, but still conscious, castrated, disembowelled and finally beheaded, bodies quartered and displayed with the head in public to deter others -- Britain historically dealt mercilessly with traitors.
The centuries-old charge of betraying the monarch and his or her government no longer carries the death penalty, but it is still one of the gravest crimes on the statute books and condemns those found guilty to life imprisonment.
quote: "I would be happy to have the death penalty in place as the ultimate sanction," said Gerard Batten, a member of the European Parliament for the anti- European Union group, the United Kingdom Independence Party.
For some reason hanging a failed suicide bomber seems a little inappropriate.
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posted
Around the time that the film "Braveheart" came out I remember hearing that the punishment of hanging, drawing and quartering was invented especially for William Wallace. I was reading an article in BBC History magazine the other day which said that this was not in fact the case, but I can't find a great deal of detail on it beyond these two statements.
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quote: "I would be happy to have the death penalty in place as the ultimate sanction," said Gerard Batten, a member of the European Parliament for the anti- European Union group, the United Kingdom Independence Party.
For some reason hanging a failed suicide bomber seems a little inappropriate.
Maybe not, if done publicly in full view of people that he/she failed to kill in the bombing attempt. I would think that the sense of humiliation in failing his/her task and dying by the hand of and in the presence of his intended victims would outweigh any sense of martyrdom that the would-be bomber might feel. These bombers are ready to die, to be sure, but they were assigned to take as many infidels as possible with them. They were not assigned to die alone as a public spectacle. Just my humble opinion.
edited for clarity
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"I would be happy to have the death penalty in place as the ultimate sanction," said Gerard Batten, a member of the European Parliament for the anti- European Union group, the United Kingdom Independence Party.
For some reason hanging a failed suicide bomber seems a little inappropriate. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe not, if done publicly in full view of people that he/she failed to kill in the bombing attempt. I would think that the sense of humiliation in failing his/her task and dying by the hand of and in the presence of his intended victims would outweigh any sense of martyrdom that the would-be bomber might feel. These bombers are ready to die, to be sure, but they were assigned to take as many infidels as possible with them. They were not assigned to die alone as a public spectacle.
Heck, I say just go with the castration. Kinda takes away the incentive to do oneself and a bunch of innocent people in just to get to heaven and all those virgins when ya got no equipment
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posted
I have read in several books that the expression 'hanging, drawing and quartering' is an Urban Legend.
The expression should be 'drawing, hung and quartered'. The condemned criminal was drawn to the place of execution by a horse (so few survived this that they were later drawn on a hurdle or in a cart). They were hung and only quartered after death.
but this may not be entirely reliable. Black's Law Dictionary also states that 'drawing' refers to how the criminal arrived at his (or her) place of execution.
Any thoughts?
-------------------- Andrew, Ware, England Posts: 1709 | From: Ware, England | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I *believe* that drawing and quartering was reserved specifically for regicides. For simple treason, decapitation was the way to go IIRC.
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quote:Originally posted by LikeHeyScoob: Maybe not, if done publicly in full view of people that he/she failed to kill in the bombing attempt. I would think that the sense of humiliation in failing his/her task and dying by the hand of and in the presence of his intended victims would outweigh any sense of martyrdom that the would-be bomber might feel.
Perhaps, but there are other reasons not to do it, aside from the moral ones. Whether the bomber feels more like a failure or a martyr, doesn't matter much, but I think it's a good bet his comrades would seem him as a martyr. And nothing inpires fanatics like an executed martyr.
Posts: 2352 | From: California | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Embra: I was reading an article in BBC History magazine the other day which said that this was not in fact the case, but I can't find a great deal of detail on it beyond these two statements.
Dafydd ap Gruffydd was the first person dragged, hanged, disembowled, and quartered as I recall.
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Turing test failures: 6 Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by LikeHeyScoob: Maybe not, if done publicly in full view of people that he/she failed to kill in the bombing attempt. I would think that the sense of humiliation in failing his/her task and dying by the hand of and in the presence of his intended victims would outweigh any sense of martyrdom that the would-be bomber might feel.
Perhaps, but there are other reasons not to do it, aside from the moral ones. Whether the bomber feels more like a failure or a martyr, doesn't matter much, but I think it's a good bet his comrades would seem him as a martyr. And nothing inpires fanatics like an executed martyr.
If the condemned person were Muslim, forcing him to eat pork immediately prior to execution would mean, in his mind, he would not be going to Paradise.
If the condemned person were staunch Catholic, denying him Confession and absolution etc would have the same effect.
I imagine these people would not be so happy about dying then.
If you think I am being overly harsh, imagine if you had a friend die in a terrorist attack, and then you saw the perpertrator on TV, smiling and waving to the camera, you would possibly want that person to die in pain.
I had a friend who was killed in the Bali bombing. Amrozi is the man mainly responsible, and he was often seen smiling and laughing during his trila. He claims he will die a martyr.
I would like to take away this belief. Make him suffer.
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posted
Damian, I'm really sorry to hear about your friend
I don't know if it would be possible to take away the perpetrator's belief that he will be a martyr - possibly anything that forms part of his punishment could be rationalised in his mind as forming part of his "martyrdom". If he can believe that killing and maiming innocent people is pleasing to his god, then he would probably be able to construct in his head some way in which his god would accept his eating pork. Fanatics seem to be rather good at this kind of mental gymnastics.
-------------------- I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war. Posts: 4495 | From: Surrey, UK | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Johnny Slick: For simple treason, decapitation was the way to go IIRC.
The punishment for petty treason was burning at the stake.
Nah, that was heresy. Specifically, that's what happened to Thomas More (the author of Utopia). It's also why burning at the stake is associated with the Salem Witch Trials.
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quote:Originally posted by Damian: If the condemned person were Muslim, forcing him to eat pork immediately prior to execution would mean, in his mind, he would not be going to Paradise.
If the condemned person were staunch Catholic, denying him Confession and absolution etc would have the same effect.
I imagine these people would not be so happy about dying then.
You still aren't getting the point. It doesn't matter whether or not these murderers would be happy or not. What matters is that doing stupid things like this would make people who are at the moment not willing to fly a plane into a skyscraper very angry with us. That, in turn, would create more terrorism, not less. That's the nature of asymmetrical warfare. You can't expect to win the war by salting the opponents' fields.
quote:If you think I am being overly harsh, imagine if you had a friend die in a terrorist attack, and then you saw the perpertrator on TV, smiling and waving to the camera, you would possibly want that person to die in pain.
You're not being overly harsh. You're being underly thoughtful.
quote:I had a friend who was killed in the Bali bombing. Amrozi is the man mainly responsible, and he was often seen smiling and laughing during his trila. He claims he will die a martyr.
I would like to take away this belief. Make him suffer.
There is nothing that you or the state can do that would accomplish this.
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quote:Originally posted by Johnny Slick: I *believe* that drawing and quartering was reserved specifically for regicides. For simple treason, decapitation was the way to go IIRC.
Hanging was the normal form of execution for any crime, but beheading was reserved only for criminals of high status (whatever their crime). Thus Sir Walter Raleigh, Charles I and Anne Boleyn were all beheaded. Archbishop Laud was originally sentenced to be hung, but he had his last request granted and he was beheaded.
By the way, beheading was last carried out in Britain in 1747, but it was not abolished until 1870.
(Thanks to BBC History Magazine for the info. (April 2005))
-------------------- Andrew, Ware, England Posts: 1709 | From: Ware, England | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:The expression should be 'drawing, hung and quartered'. The condemned criminal was drawn to the place of execution by a horse (so few survived this that they were later drawn on a hurdle or in a cart). They were hung and only quartered after death.
I think the site you link to is probably the most comprehensive description of the punishment (and its variation down the years). This page on the punishment of Wallace (if you can struggle through all the railing that the punishment was a special evil visited on Scots by the English...) suggests that teachers of small children tried to minimise the awfulness of the punishment by saying that "drawing" referred to the transport to the place of execution (thereby omitting the process of disembowellment and/or emasculation):
quote:Teachers of history to children, while explaining the meaning of hanging, drawing and quartering, usually hide the horror by exploiting the ambiguity of "drawing"
quote:... the original sentence in the Wallace case clearly distinguishes between the two types of "drawing", using "detrahatur" for drawing as a method of transport, and "devaletur" for disembowellment. (Hanging is "suspendatur", beheading is "decapitetur", and quartering is "decolletur".)
However, I don't remember ever having believed that the punishment did not involve disembowelling: in fact I think it's one of those grotesque details that children actually revel in.
The punishment certainly included all the four elements of drawing to the place of execution, partial strangulation, disembowellment and mutilation and the explanation above assumes that both the transport and evisceration elements may be translated as "drawing".
Websters online (citing Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable) says the same in its definition:
quote:The evidence seems to be that traitors were drawn to the place of execution, then hanged, then "drawn" or disembowelled, and then quartered. Thus the sentence on Sir William Wallace was that he should be drawn (detrahatur) from the Palace of Westminster to the Tower, etc., then hanged (suspendatur), then disembowelled or drawn (devaletur), then beheaded and quartered (decolletur et decapitetur). (See Notes and Queries, August 15th, 1891.) If by "drawn" is meant conveyed to the place of execution, the phrase should be "Drawn, hanged, and quartered;" but if the word is used as a synonym of disembowelled, the phrase should be "Hanged, drawn, and quartered."
Jason Threadslayer: burning at the stake was the punishment reserved for women convicted of petty treason.
-------------------- I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war. Posts: 4495 | From: Surrey, UK | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote: By the way, beheading was last carried out in Britain in 1747, but it was not abolished until 1870.
Well, it depends what you mean by `beheading'. The Cato Street conspirators of 1820 were beheaded, but only after they were dead after being hanged.
Incidentally, this thread highlights the point of the sentence `hanged by the neck until you are dead' since some people were hanged by the neck and taken down again before death. http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/hdq.html
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Linden Posts: 190 | From: Australia | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Nah, that was heresy. Specifically, that's what happened to Thomas More (the author of Utopia). It's also why burning at the stake is associated with the Salem Witch Trials.
I think you might be getting mixed up.
Thomas More was beheaded for treason by Henry VIII, not burned for heresy.
Burning for heresy is more associated with Mary I who burned Protestants alive - earning her the nickname Bloody Mary.
Now as for the witches, and the horrific paranoid fuelled murder rampage that was the witch trials led by that evil little sod Matthew Hopkins (bitter, moi?) et al..... In England there were many punishments for allegedly being a witch (which of course most weren't) including excommunication, life imprisonment and being chained the the oars of a ship (believe it or not) but most commonly hanging.
In Europe many 'witches' were burned at the stake but in England it was far more common to hang the 'witch' first then burn the body.
I'm not even going to go into what happened to pregnant 'witches'.
But heresy, for those poor sods like Cranmer, Latimer and Ridley, they were burnt. Around 300 protestants died at Mary's hands this way.
But on a lighter note I'm so chuffed to find some fellow readers of BBC History mag!!
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posted
I read BBC History (ETA: duh, I now realise that I had said this earlier on and it was probably one of the things you were commenting on. How circular!)
[family boast]And History Today as well - in fact I would just like to plug the October issue as it will apparently contain an article by My Dad. I am so chuffed![/family boast]
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posted
BBC History Magazine top reading! Congratulations Embra on your dad's article. I used to get History Today but then changed to Living History and now BBC History .
Re-reading the April 2005 edition of BBC History says that 1747 was the last beheading in England, not necessarily Britain.
-------------------- Andrew, Ware, England Posts: 1709 | From: Ware, England | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
It's about 19th century French colonial policy in Algeria. Well, you've gotta find a niche haven't you?
ETA: "The French War on Terror: Nigel Falls unravels the domestic and international background to, and fallout from, the French conquest of the piratical and failed state of Algiers in 1830." www.historytoday.com
I didn't realise it was so topical!
-------------------- I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war. Posts: 4495 | From: Surrey, UK | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote:Nah, that was heresy. Specifically, that's what happened to Thomas More (the author of Utopia). It's also why burning at the stake is associated with the Salem Witch Trials.
I think you might be getting mixed up.
Thomas More was beheaded for treason by Henry VIII, not burned for heresy.
Burning for heresy is more associated with Mary I who burned Protestants alive - earning her the nickname Bloody Mary.
Now as for the witches, and the horrific paranoid fuelled murder rampage that was the witch trials led by that evil little sod Matthew Hopkins (bitter, moi?) et al..... In England there were many punishments for allegedly being a witch (which of course most weren't) including excommunication, life imprisonment and being chained the the oars of a ship (believe it or not) but most commonly hanging.
In Europe many 'witches' were burned at the stake but in England it was far more common to hang the 'witch' first then burn the body.
I'm not even going to go into what happened to pregnant 'witches'.
But heresy, for those poor sods like Cranmer, Latimer and Ridley, they were burnt. Around 300 protestants died at Mary's hands this way.
As long as we have some experts on Tudor execution techniques present, I have a question.
I have been told that burning at the stake, if done properly, was considered a humane form of execution. Given the proper amount of wood (seven "faggots", I was told), the victim died of smoke inhalation before succuming to the heat or the flames. Furthermore, I was informed that a cask of gunpowder could be hung around the neck as "insurance" - if for some reason the victim was still conscious by the time the flames started to consume them, the gunpowder would explode and separate the head from the body.
The person who told me this is a history teacher and is well versed in Tudor and Elizabethan history - if this story is caca, I'd appreciate cites, if possible.
buf 'living in the past' ungla
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George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra Posts: 4847 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Ghost on Toast: In Europe many 'witches' were burned at the stake but in England it was far more common to hang the 'witch' first then burn the body.
I read or heard somewhere that there is actually no record at all, at least in Sweden, that a whitch was ever burned alive.
-------------------- Små hönor skall inte lägga stora ägg för då blir de slarviga i ändan Posts: 1334 | From: Sweden | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Damian: If the condemned person were Muslim, forcing him to eat pork immediately prior to execution would mean, in his mind, he would not be going to Paradise.
Or beheading -- the type of death proscribed by the Quran for kuffar.
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Turing test failures: 6 Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
The Quran asks only that the attempt has been made to stay away from forbidden foods. IIRC, a starving Moslem can eat otherwise forbidden foods.
ETA: Surah 5: But if anyone is forced By hunger, with no inclination To transgress, Allah is Indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
In which case, anyone literally forced to transgress dietary laws would not have to face Allah's wrath.
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny Slick: It's also why burning at the stake is associated with the Salem Witch Trials. [/QB]
Although no one was actually burnt at the stake at Salem.
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posted
Thanks for the clarification on Thomas More. And yes, I know that nobody was actually burnt at the stake at Salem (although the testimony indicates that at least of those who "confessed" had their feet burned off); I was just offering an explanation as to why the one meme is associated with the other. Anyway, it was drawing and quartering for regicide (I believe that the horses used were originally meant to be driven to the four corners of the realm to show all who lived in it the consequences of plotting to kill the king), beheading for treason, and burning at the stake for heresy (which also, IIRC, played into the European conquest of the Americas; there are several accounts of native leaders "confessing to their sins" to avoid being burned alive).
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quote:Anyway, it was drawing and quartering for regicide (I believe that the horses used were originally meant to be driven to the four corners of the realm to show all who lived in it the consequences of plotting to kill the king), beheading for treason
The punishment of drawing and quartering using horses was certainly used in France: in his Discipline and Punish: the Birth of the Prison, Michel Foucault describes the fate of Damiens the regicide in France in 1757.
I do not believe that horses were used in any part of Britain to pull offenders apart. Regicide would, I presume, have been classed as high treason and would have attracted the punishment of hanging, drawing and quartering from the 13th century on.
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posted
Hi Bungfunfla - Oh, I'm by no means an expert but a very sad incessant reader of books and therefore stuffed with pointless knowledge and Google is my friend!!!
But I have seen reference to the gunpowder before although I don't know how true it is. British executioners were traditionally able to be paid a small bribe to do the job quickly and properyl, in fact many took a few coins to the scaffold to try to persuade the executioner to strike at the neck hard, and not hit the head or back and prolong the death - whether it worked I don't know!
And is that Billy Connolly on your avatar??
quote:(although the testimony indicates that at least of those who "confessed" had their feet burned off);
Oh ewwww and ouch.... How can people be so cruel. Fear and ignorance are powerful things...
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Danib1970
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
During tudor period, heretics that were burned at the stake often has gunpowder secretly given to them, to have in a bag around their necks or to drop into the fire, to speed death up. The bonfires were often built with very green wood or got wet after rain and that would slow the burning down and the heretic would suffer watching their feet and legs roasting in front of their eyes. It was never as glamorous as show in the films with the flames spontantiously licking up their bodies. It could take hours of agony to die. The witches could have many forms of punishment or trial before either, being burnt, or hung or pressed to death. Different countries had different processes, the UK ducked witches to see if they sunk or floated. Unfortunately, sinking was the sign your were not a witch, any many people died from that alone. Another test (I cant remember where from) was to be put in a sack with a cockeral or cat or another animal classed as a familiar and see if they attack them or not! I don't know any cat that wouldn't attack if stuck in a sack with a human.
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quote:During tudor period, heretics that were burned at the stake often has gunpowder secretly given to them, to have in a bag around their necks or to drop into the fire, to speed death up.
Interesting Danib' - do you have a reference? It just seems to me that gunpowder in a bag would be a bit ineffective as a means of dispatching somebody in a fire - poison would have been far more sympathetic in my eyes...
Welcome to the boards
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quote:Originally posted by Danib1970: The bonfires were often built with very green wood or got wet after rain and that would slow the burning down and the heretic would suffer watching their feet and legs roasting in front of their eyes.
I'd always heard that the green wood or wet wood was considered a mercy because it creates more smoke. That way the condemned would die of asphyxiation long before they would have died of burning.
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer: Dafydd ap Gruffydd was the first person dragged, hanged, disembowled, and quartered as I recall.
With a name like that, a worse punishment would have been life.
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