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Author Topic: Bra Wearing causes Breast Cancer
jessboo
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i think your bra would have to be really tight to the point of unwearable to have the effect of "closing off the lymphatic pathway from the breast to the nodes". as for "This causes fluid build-up, swelling, tenderness and cyst formation." i don't profess to be a doctor, but does cancer have anything to do with fluid? or tenderness?

i'm joining the '14 year old boy' camp on this. filthy pervs [Wink]

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FrogFeathers
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About sleeping in bras.


I'm 38DD- have been since 9th grade. The only time I slept in a bra was when I was pregnant and nursing. They were 38G then. But I didn't wear it for comfort- it was for leak protection.

If I went braless outside the house, innocent bystanders would be injured. [lol]

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glass papaya
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*raises hand shyly*

I also sleep with a bra. Didn't used to, but time, pregnancy, and gravity have taken their toll.

The second time DH rolled over onto the drooping boobage, I started wearing a bra at night. MUCH more comfortable.

[Big Grin]

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DawnStorm
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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Seanette:
[qb] I remember seeing the special sleeping bras in the Sears catalog back in the 1970's, when breast reductions were less common.

I was just going to say that there are 'night bras' on the market. I don't think they provide a ton of support though.

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cattalac
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I just knew SNOPES would have made a judgment on this by now, but I just did a search on it and still no confirmation either way. I love to throw SNOPES up in this one lady's face because she's always sending out a bunch of crap/ridiculous stuff like this. The feeling of superiority I get when I can reference SNOPES is intoxicating. Speaking of which, the only time I wore a bra to bed was when I was too drunk to take it off!
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cattalac
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I just knew SNOPES would have made a judgment on this by now, but I just did a search on it and still no confirmation either way. I love to throw SNOPES up in this one lady's face because she's always sending out a bunch of crap/ridiculous stuff like this. The feeling of superiority I get when I can reference SNOPES is intoxicating. Speaking of which, the only time I wore a bra to bed was when I was too drunk to take it off!
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DevilBunny
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Well, for another datapoint:

I'm a 38F, and I wear no bra in bed. I also wear no bra when just hanging around the house, but if I'm going out dear gods yes. Apart from anything else, not wearing a bra makes most tops (which are shaped on the assumption that you are wearing one) look well weird.

It is possible to get comfortable bras at this size, but you can't just assume that anything labelled 38F will be comfortable. They're all slightly different shapes, so even if you know the size, you really do have to try on.

Oh, yeah, and add me to the 'bras cause breast cancer? What arrant tripe' chorus.

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Sister Ray
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Count me as another who wears a sports bra all the time. Except when I sleep. And despite years of bra wearing, I droop so much that my boobs look several sizes smaller than they are.

And, if we want to get into strange bra stories, I am, with my sister, the only non-petite woman in the family. When my mom first bought me a bra, it was way too small, and I pulled some sort of muscle and walked around in pain for a week, convinced I had breast cancer.

Sister "boobified" Ray

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Hillary K., fair and balanced
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One of my friends at work, Linda, once suggested that well-endowed women have some kind of share-the-wealth program. She says that just a little of me need be taken for her to have a real chest.

She and I are the same height. I wear a large shirt size; Linda wears a small. (When she said that she had the body of a twelve-year-old, I didn't bother to say that she sure as hell didn't resemble ME at twelve.)

Hillary "still droopy after all these years" K.

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Cambion
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Add me to the list of those of us who wear bras to bed. I can't stand wearing normal clipping bras, so I switched to sports bras. Even though I'm rather small for my age, I prefer to wear sports bras tight enough to intentionally compress the breasts. I guess I've damned myself to cancer XD.
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Chickee Daizy
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quote:
Originally posted by Samantha Vimes:
Um... no one sleeps with a bra on, do they? I can't imagine doing so.

I do...Does that make me an oddball? My boobs aren't particulary big either, so it isn't because of that. I just do it because I've always done it. Now I feel like a weirdo.

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Zorro
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I never ever slept with a bra on until I got pregnant. Now, most of the time, I do; "the girls" are way too big these days to be comfortable. I hate wearing a bra around the house and especially to bed, but right now, I really don't have a choice.

I can't wait until I'm done nursing so they'll go back down in size. I really hate them being this big. Hubby laughs when I say that. he stops laughing when I tell him that, if they don't go back down in size enough, I'm going for reduction surgery. I can't imagine why he'd stop laughing at that. *innocent look* [lol]

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PrincessLeia
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I was going to say that I never wear a bra to bed, but I am tonight. However, the only reason I am is because I am on vacation and sharing a room with other people.

I actually don't really need to wear a bra. I wear a 36AA, and even that is too big. The only reason I do wear one is to provide padding under tighter shirts.

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Rivkah Chaya
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Even before I was pregnant, I couldn't leave the house braless, because I attracted too much attention. I still take the damm thing off as soon as I get home.

I can't imagine trying to sleep in one.

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gymgirl
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For those unbelievers, the lymph vessels are a non-pressurized system -- meaning they don't flow if *anything* compresses them in any way. In no other areas of the body do we wear clothing that is constantly applying pressure against a solid structure (ribcage) as we do with our bras. This restricts lymph flow (and circulation to an extent) -- causing a buildup of waste products, including possbly cancerous cells.

We all have several cancer cells developing in our bodies every day, but 99.99% of them are removed by our immune system. It's the ones that stay and grow that give us "cancer" as we know it. One researcher stated, "Without your lymph system, you'd be dead in 24-48 hours." (see: http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/melanoma/default.htm).

Personally, I skip the bra (and any other tight-fitting clothing) whenever possible. When I *have* to wear a bra, it comes off as soon as I get home.

Of course, I know many people will say, "everything causes cancer," but why increase the odds?

Kam

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Seaboe Muffinchucker
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quote:
Originally posted by gymgirl:
For those unbelievers,..

Interesting choice of words.

Seaboe

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Lainie
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quote:
Originally posted by gymgirl:
In no other areas of the body do we wear clothing that is constantly applying pressure against a solid structure (ribcage) as we do with our bras.

Properly fitting bras do not apply constant pressure against the ribcage, nor do they press the breasts against my ribcage. The design is intended to support the breasts vertically. The only exception I can think of would be a sports bra designed for high-impact activities, and I don't think anybody wears those all day.

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Enjal
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As far as the OP goes, I call bullpucky. As others have said, there is a big difference between fibrocystic breasts and breast cancer.

A woman I know wears sports bras all the time but it's mostly because she's well endowed and doesn't like to show off her boobage too much. The smaller they look, the happier she is.

Personally, I like an underwire with a semi-firm cup. I don't care how comfortable they are though, that bra comes off as soon as possible. The only time I sleep with a bra on is when I'm around people I don't know very well but if I've had a few drinks, even that won't stop me from setting "the girls" free.

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Nick Theodorakis
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quote:
Originally posted by gymgirl:
...
We all have several cancer cells developing in our bodies every day, but 99.99% of them are removed by our immune system. It's the ones that stay and grow that give us "cancer" as we know it.

The extent to which the immune system suppreses cancer growth is hotly debated and not well understood. People who undergo immunosuppressive therapy do have a somewhat elevated risk for some malignancies (particularly lymphoma and Kaposi's Sarcoma) and there is some evidence that the immune system may help fight melanoma. However, I seriously doubt that "99.99%" of pre-malignant cells are targeted by the immune system.

quote:

One researcher stated, "Without your lymph system, you'd be dead in 24-48 hours." (see: http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/melanoma/default.htm

That quote is seriously out of context regarding cancer immunobiology. The quote refers to the well-understood and non-controversial role of lymphatic immune cells in fighting infectious disease.

Nick

ETA: cites

Breast Cancer (relevant to this discussion):
quote:

The Immune System

One woman wanted to know why people's immune systems are not boosted preventitively or prior to receiving chemotherapy. Dr. Tripathy said the role of the immune system in breast cancer prevention is largely unknown. He illustrated this by talking about the relatively low rates of breast cancer in women who have AIDS and who are immunosuppressed. In contrast, these women have high rates of lymphoma and melanoma.

Cancer Prevention
quote:

... Each of the major immunosuppressants used in transplantation has also had the side effect of increasing the risk of some cancers, notably lymphomas, because the immunosuppressed patient has lost an ability to identify and destroy tumor cells.4,5
. . . .
4. Holm LE. Cancer occurring after radiotherapy and chemotherapy. Int J Radiation Oncol Biol Phys 1990; 19 : 1303-8.
5. Cockburn ITR, Krupp P. The risk of neoplasms in patients treated with cyclosporine A. J Autoimmunol 1989; 2 : 723-31.

Nick

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gymgirl
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The basic underlying premise of the OP was that bras block lymph ducts and increase the risk of cancer. If either of the main suppositions are not true -- that bras block lymph; that cancerous cells are removed by lymph -- then the whole argument falls flat. I believe that they're both true.

If you take off your bra and have *any* type of lines or indentions, then your bra is compressing your skin (and, most likely, the underlying tissues). Those lines are caused by the interstitial fluids being pushed out of the intracellular areas -- if it happens to your skin (which is pretty structured compared to lymph ducts), then it can happen to the lymph system. If you've ever seen a lymph duct up close, it's obvious that is has no firm structure and is about like a piece of tubing made out of wet paper towels -- a penny laid on it would flatten it.

Nick -- Yes, the daily-cancer-cell issue is debated, but having worked as a pre-med student in the oncology department of a local teaching hospital, I was involved in research concerning 'lymph clearing' and how it affects cancer growth, I stand firmly on the side of the "constant battle" camp. (Which is why this particular thread caught my attention.) Guyton's book (link below) also has a section on the 'daily cancer cell' issue.

Also, the previous site quote was lymph-related -- which is, as the OP debates, cancer-related.

Book:

Guyton's Textbook of Medical Physiology

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Nick Theodorakis
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by gymgirl:
The basic underlying premise of the OP was that bras block lymph ducts and increase the risk of cancer. If either of the main suppositions are not true -- that bras block lymph; that cancerous cells are removed by lymph -- then the whole argument falls flat. I believe that they're both true.

If cancer cells are getting into the lymph node, that means that they are metastatic and thus already pretty advanced and probably past the point at which immunosurveillance might work.

Now it's possible that the node might play a role if immunosurveillance of breast cancer is mediated through the adaptive arm of the immune system (i.e., B- and T-lymphocyte mediated) rather than the innate immunity pathway (e.g., macrophages and Natural Killer cells); antigen presenting cells such as dendritic cells could migrate to the lymph node to activate specific T- and B-cells.

However, two things argue against this. One is that in patients that are immunosupressed, no increase in breast cancer is seen, and in fact a slight decrease was observed (see reference [1] below). Second, when dendritic cells were observed to infiltrate breast cancers, their presence was correlated with a worse outcome, rather than a better one (reference [5]).
quote:


Nick -- Yes, the daily-cancer-cell issue is debated, but having worked as a pre-med student in the oncology department of a local teaching hospital, I was involved in research concerning 'lymph clearing' and how it affects cancer growth, I stand firmly on the side of the "constant battle" camp. (Which is why this particular thread caught my attention.) Guyton's book (link below) also has a section on the 'daily cancer cell' issue.

Also, the previous site quote was lymph-related -- which is, as the OP debates, cancer-related.

Book:

Guyton's Textbook of Medical Physiology

I've included below some references (references [2–4], [6] and [8–10] below) that summarize work done on the immunosurveillance hypothesis. They are all review articles and the last three are available freely online. I should point that the articles by Prehn are "anti-surveillance" and somewhat curmudgeonly. However, even the ones written by "pro-surveillance" partisans (Dunn and Old, and Pardoll) don't even come close to making the claim that cancer immunosurveillance removes 99.99% of cancer cells.

I'll briefly summarize the points below, and you are free to peruse those references at your leisure.



    [*]In various immune-deficient models (athymic mice or SCID-mice) no increase in the spontaneous formation of tumors was observed.

    [*]However, in other immune-deficient models (mice deficient in RAG-1 or RAG-2, Interferon-γ, STAT-1, or perforin) carcinogenesis induced by methylcolanthrene (MCA, a potent carcinogen) was elevated as compared to normal mice.

    [*]On the other hand, the interpretation of those data are disputed by some on technical grounds (see reference [7]).

    [*]Nevertheless, even if correct, the magnitude of the effect on immune function on MCA-induced carcinogenesis doesn't (in my opinion) support the "daily surveillance" hypothesis. For example, one experiment showed that 11 out of 57 normal mice developed tumors 160 days after MCA injection, whereas 30 out of 52 RAG-2 deficient mice (lacking B-and T-lymphocytes and Natural Killer cells) did.

    [*]That's all well and good for mice; how about people? Of course, it's hard to get permission to do similar experiments on humans, but there are some observations. People that are immunosuppressed either by design (as for organ transplantation) or by disease do have a somewhat elevated risk for some cancers, chiefly lymphomas, Kaposi's sarcoma, and maybe cervical carcinoma. Intriguingly, these cancers are predominantly associated with viral infection (Epstein-Barr virus for lymphoma, HSV-8 for KS, and HPV for cervical cancer). However, the most common cancers that afflict humans (lung, colon, breast, for example) show no such affect. Perhaps surveillance works better on viral-associated cancers because viral antigens are better perceived to be "foreign" than tumor antigens.


In summary, I would say that there is some role for immune surveillance of certain human cancers, particularly with those associated with viruses, but nothing near the magnitude claimed by the "daily battle" hypothesis.

REFERENCES


  1. Stewart T, Tsai SC, Grayson H, Henderson R, Opelz G. (1995) "Incidence of de-novo breast cancer in women chronically immunosuppressed after organ transplantation." Lancet 346:796-798.
  2. Mark J. Smyth, Dale I. Godfrey and Joseph A.Trapani. (2001) "A fresh look at tumor immunosurveillance and immunotherapy." Nature Immununology 2:293-299.
  3. Dunn GP, Bruce AT, Ikeda H, Old LJ, Schreiber RD. (2002) "Cancer immunoediting: from immunosurveillance to tumor escape." Nature Immunology 3:991-998.
  4. Drew Pardoll. (2003) "Does the immune system see tumors as foreign or self?" Annu. Rev. Immunol. 21:807-839.
  5. Isabelle Treilleux, Jean-Yves Blay, Nathalie Bendriss-Vermare, Isabelle Ray-Coquard, Thomas Bachelot, Jean-Paul Guastalla, Alain Bremond, Sophie Goddard, Jean-Jacques Pin, Clarisse Barthelemy-Dubois, and Serge Lebecque. (2004) "Dendritic Cell Infiltration and Prognosis of Early Stage Breast Cancer." Clinical Cancer Research 10:7466–7474.
  6. Dunn GP, Old LJ, Schreiber RD. (2004) "The immunobiology of cancer immunosurveillance and immunoediting." Immunity 21:137-148.
  7. Qin Z, Blankenstein T. (2004) "A cancer immunosurveillance controversy." (Letter) Nature Immununology 5:3-4.
  8. Christine V Ichim. (2005) "Revisiting immunosurveillance and immunostimulation: Implications for cancer immunotherapy." Journal of Translational Medicine 3:8. Available online.
  9. Richmond T Prehn. (2005) "On the nature of cancer and why anticancer vaccines don't work." Cancer Cell International 5:25. Available online.
  10. Richmond T Prehn. (2006) "An immune reaction may be necessary for cancer development." Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling 3:6. Available online.

edited because I lose the ability to spell "references" when it's in all caps

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Troberg
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Nice retort by Nick Theodorakis. I'll add my little bit of common sense to it:

quote:
The basic underlying premise of the OP was that bras block lymph ducts and increase the risk of cancer. If either of the main suppositions are not true -- that bras block lymph; that cancerous cells are removed by lymph -- then the whole argument falls flat. I believe that they're both true.

If you take off your bra and have *any* type of lines or indentions, then your bra is compressing your skin (and, most likely, the underlying tissues). Those lines are caused by the interstitial fluids being pushed out of the intracellular areas -- if it happens to your skin (which is pretty structured compared to lymph ducts), then it can happen to the lymph system. If you've ever seen a lymph duct up close, it's obvious that is has no firm structure and is about like a piece of tubing made out of wet paper towels -- a penny laid on it would flatten it.

And in what way does that make a bra different from any other clothes? Jeans? Panties? Shoes?

Don't get me wrong, I love naked women, but they should be naked for the right reasons.

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FireSpook
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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Nice retort by Nick Theodorakis. I'll add my little bit of common sense to it:

quote:
The basic underlying premise of the OP was that bras block lymph ducts and increase the risk of cancer. If either of the main suppositions are not true -- that bras block lymph; that cancerous cells are removed by lymph -- then the whole argument falls flat. I believe that they're both true.

If you take off your bra and have *any* type of lines or indentions, then your bra is compressing your skin (and, most likely, the underlying tissues). Those lines are caused by the interstitial fluids being pushed out of the intracellular areas -- if it happens to your skin (which is pretty structured compared to lymph ducts), then it can happen to the lymph system. If you've ever seen a lymph duct up close, it's obvious that is has no firm structure and is about like a piece of tubing made out of wet paper towels -- a penny laid on it would flatten it.

And in what way does that make a bra different from any other clothes? Jeans? Panties? Shoes?

Don't get me wrong, I love naked women, but they should be naked for the right reasons.

The lymph ducts act sort of like blood vessels, but unlike them, they have no center muscle to move them around the body and are very thin.

The lymphic fluid moves through these vessals via two mechanisms: peristalsis of the vessels (a wavelike movement) and the milking of the vessels via skeletal muscles.

Now, as basic biology shows us, the breasts do not have muscles (outside of the veins, etc) to milk the vessels, and the peristalsis of the vessels is undoubtfully not strong enough to move the fluid through the breast if a bra is compressing the skin (as it isn't the main form of movement, Skeletal muscle milking is).

I should note that it's been theorized that the (cough) swinging motion of the breasts may help move the fluid along, in place of these Skeletal muscles, so even if your bra fit correctly, you may still be increasing your risk of getting breast cancer.

I don't believe that the OP means that Cancer cells are removed by the lymptic system, so much as Toxins (produced daily by cells and other things) are not being removed, and that the build up of toxins is what causes mutations in the Cell's DNA, and over time, cancer.

Think of it as if a part of a city one day lost it's sewer system and and waste management, at first everything's fine, then people are getting sick and start to die.

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queen of the bah-caramels
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm, the OTHER import:
[/qb]

The lymph ducts act sort of like blood vessels, but unlike them, they have no center muscle to move them around the body and are very thin.

The lymphic fluid moves through these vessals via two mechanisms: peristalsis of the vessels (a wavelike movement) and the milking of the vessels via skeletal muscles.

Now, as basic biology shows us, the breasts do not have muscles (outside of the veins, etc) to milk the vessels, and the peristalsis of the vessels is undoubtfully not strong enough to move the fluid through the breast if a bra is compressing the skin (as it isn't the main form of movement, Skeletal muscle milking is).

I should note that it's been theorized that the (cough) swinging motion of the breasts may help move the fluid along, in place of these Skeletal muscles, so even if your bra fit correctly, you may still be increasing your risk of getting breast cancer.

I don't believe that the OP means that Cancer cells are removed by the lymptic system, so much as Toxins (produced daily by cells and other things) are not being removed, and that the build up of toxins is what causes mutations in the Cell's DNA, and over time, cancer.

[/QB][/QUOTE]


And the (admittedly small percentage of)men who contract breast cancer blame what?

And not forgetting my GM who never wore a bra and had a successful mastectomy in her early 90's?

Breast cancer has beeen around for a long time . Alison Wiers book " Elizabeth the Queen" theorises that Amy Robsert had breast cancer in the middle of the 16th centuary.

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Rhiandmoi
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm, the OTHER import:

I should note that it's been theorized that the (cough) swinging motion of the breasts may help move the fluid along, in place of these Skeletal muscles, so even if your bra fit correctly, you may still be increasing your risk of getting breast cancer.

Who is this theorized by, and how is it supposed to work? Because I happen to have breasts, and more fluid accumulates in them when I do not wear a bra than when I do. Perhaps I am not swinging them enough.

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franjava
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Can't stand NOT weating a bra. My shirt tickles too much! Slight tangent... Way back in high school, a friend tried to convince me that getting too many hickies on your breasts would cause cancer. [Roll Eyes]

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