posted
To many people, demonic possession conjures the image of swivel-necked Linda Blair in the 1973 movie, "The Exorcist." But the Catholic Church says true possession is rare, separated from insanity and fraud only by a show of extraordinary abilities, such as superhuman strength and a facility with languages previously unknown to the tormented person.
posted
Superhuman strength? Adrenaline rush. Speaking in tongues? Insane babbling.
Most of the so-called "demonic possesion" symptoms can be simply explained away by biochemical processes that occur when one is under stress (and possibly insane at the same time).
And as for Hitler and Stalin? The Devil didn't possess them, but he sure as hell (pun intended) manipulated them or (more likely) they were the Devil's spawn themselves.
- Pseudo "[Satan] Hi, I'm Satan! I went down to the wrong Georgia! [/Satan]" Croat
-------------------- "At all events, people who deny the influence of smaller nations should remember that the Croats have the rest of us by the throats." - Norman Davies, Europe: A History
God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts. Posts: 4578 | From: Sunrise, FL | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
How about being President of the United States as a symptom?
-------------------- All the world's a face, And all the men and women merely acne. Posts: 673 | From: Glasgow, Scotland | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by lazerus the duck: How about being President of the United States as a symptom?
Dubya's stupid, not Satanic. There's a huge difference.
- Pseudo "Hail (Satan!) to the Chief" Croat
-------------------- "At all events, people who deny the influence of smaller nations should remember that the Croats have the rest of us by the throats." - Norman Davies, Europe: A History
God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts. Posts: 4578 | From: Sunrise, FL | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
[QUOTEFinally, to blame human evil on some supposedly supernatural being is a "cop-out." It reminds me of comedian Flip Wilson: "The devil made me do it!"
Barbara R. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Or in some cases I think it is a coping mechanism. People need something to explain terrible behavior so saying, “he was possessed by the devil” Helps people cope with the worst in humanity
Ever notice how we always fall in love? We never climb gently in to love, or step lightly in to love. If love is such a good thing than why is it described as a fall. Posts: 918 | From: La Salle Illinois USA | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I thought Hobbes (the comic strip stuffed tiger, not the real-life philosopher) summed it up best: "Mankind doesn't need the help." (And I think that's verbatim, so complain to Watterston about the sexist language.)
-------------------- "Well, it looks we're on our own ... again."--Rev. Lovejoy Posts: 3572 | From: St. Louis, MO | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:How about being President of the United States as a symptom?
That's not possession, the devil can't be possessed.
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
In my experience, people are "possessed" (or similarly affected by supernatural phenomena" because they let themselves.
Not quite a demon possession, but in a very similar vein: I'll never forget the story of one faith healer who was in town in 1994. He was quite well known and travelled in South America, so the members of the church I was a member of at the time, made up of virtually Latin American immigrants, were excited to see him.
Well, all but one woman. She just couldn't bring herself to accept that a man blowing on you was a sign that God was working through you.
This healer's shtick was that he would blow on you and you would fall over, having been touched by the Lord or something like that. People did fall over when he blew on them.
Not this woman. He blew on her, and blew on her ... and she just stood there. He wound up just praying for her instead.
Some might have said that her unbelief caused God to skip over her. I would suggest that her unbelief allowed her to see right through this fraud.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Barbara R.: Hal Lindsey, Billy Graham and others once convinced me that demons and Satan were real. However, they exist only in the human imagination.
You means Harry potter is REALS>! Awesome! *goes off to look for him*
-------------------- WARNING The message above may have statements that only make sense in this user's mind.
Read at your own risk. Posts: 667 | From: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
In all fairness (or, as fair as is possible in the handling of this topic), the Catholic Church does attempt to take every possible medical measure to reach a diagnosis of mental or physical illness before any Bishop sanctions an exorcism. And, as should be expected, virtually all of their documented cases are marked with "schizophrenia" or "autism" or "epilepsy," etc.
Many priests you might speak to about this topic seem a bit embarrassed that the Papacy requires an exorcist be on hand for every Diocese. But the Church, by doctrinal default, can't very well abandon the post, as the Canonical Gospels present Jesus performing exorcisms, proclaiming that those who accept God, too, have the power to drive out demons.
I've grappled with this topic and personally don't believe any of its literalisms. However, it is rather painful to read some of the Jesuit transcripts (a point of irony: how the Jesuits live to transcribe) of children as young as 6 or 7, screaming in Latin or Aramaic. More so, it's a solid point of disgust that any child would "willingly" have accepted evil into its soul (a point exorcists make on how Satan enters the corporal/phenomenal body).
There are really only two shaky conclusions I reach when faced with these transcripts: One, that Noam Chomsky may, in fact, be right in his empiric conclusions that every human language is biologically present in the human mind at birth; and perhaps a small child screaming in Latin during a psychological disassociation is a bizarre reflection of such. Or, two, that the transcribers are lying or honestly mistaken; they've written a horrific account in order to sow belief.
But this entire topic really is just a muse on the nature of "evil." And although Toni Morrison might admonish me for enjoying the topic in literature, it is always fun to see a powerful author place the devil in a top hat.
“Ooooh, snazzy tie, Satan! Armani?” “No, I enslaved three Argentinean children to tear the flesh off of their own mothers’ thighs, iron it out, and make the skin noose you see before you!” “Niiiice! Hey, our table’s ready! I hear their filet mignon is exquisite.” “Beef!?! On Friday!” “Uh, so?” “Excellent! It’s all coming according to plan! Muahhahahahahaha!!!”
-------------------- The salty fragrance of L’EauD’I’mNotDedalus - made entirely of and entirely for sea turtles. Posts: 1983 | From: Chicagoland, IL | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Barbara R.: Hal Lindsey, Billy Graham and others once convinced me that demons and Satan were real. However, they exist only in the human imagination.
You means Harry potter is REALS>! Awesome! *goes off to look for him*
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by I'mNotDedalus: More so, it's a solid point of disgust that any child would "willingly" have accepted evil into its soul (a point exorcists make on how Satan enters the corporal/phenomenal body).
Not always. Even great saints have been possessed and/or obsessed.
I'm not sure if the will necessarily has anything to do with it. The possession of the young boy in Maryland (after which "the Exorcist" was based) was supposedly due to his use of the ouija board and other occult instruments in an attempt to contact his deceased aunti.
-------------------- "I wanna bite the hand that feeds me. I wanna bite that hand so badly. I wanna make them wish they'd never seen me." - Elvis Costello Posts: 2291 | From: The Banks of the Merrimack, MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
That counts as willingly; you do not have to knowingly let in the Devil, he is said to be a great trickster. However, you have to "willingly" do it; it has to be something done of your own volition, whether you knew it to be evil or not. You could not be forced to do it, it couldn't be done to you, but you can do it in all ignorance. I don't think it is the same as sin, exactly. I am pretty sure sin requires knowledge, but all demons need are some sort of opening.
Of course, I have been a lapsed Catholic longer than I was practicing, so I may be off on this. This was always my understanding of the way it worked, though, and before I lapsed I had quite an intrest in the vagaries and off-beat byways of Catholicism.
-------------------- "Accompanied by the ghosts of dolphins, the ghost of a ship sailed on..." Terry Pratchett Posts: 660 | From: Gainesville, FL | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by I'mNotDedalus: More so, it's a solid point of disgust that any child would "willingly" have accepted evil into its soul (a point exorcists make on how Satan enters the corporal/phenomenal body).
Not always. Even great saints have been possessed and/or obsessed.
That's certainly a strong point. Truth be told, I can't recall people such as Malachi Martin or Gabriele Amorth addressing the issue of Demonical Possession of Saints.
This issue of the Saints is a bit tricky, as many of their acts are open for mythological reference; as their acts should be, in any case, because their lives are presented as teaching tools. The life of Martin of Tours, for example, could be read as one examining personal doubts and selfishness whenever the devil's character appears (Martin's life may be a poor example, as I can't remember if he was ever possessed, per se; but nevertheless, I think my opinion holds).
It is a bit frustrating that the Catholic Church can allow for more mythological leeway in the lives of Saints who slay dragons but grant few similar allowances for 1st century Jewish accounts of demonical possession in Palestine. Contrast the Catholic Encyclopedia's diction in the articles on St. George and Possession:
quote:Again, as Bury points out, "the connection of St. George with a dragon-slaying legend does not relegate him to the region of the myth, for over against the fabulous Christian dragon-slayer Theodore of the Bithynian Heraclaea, we can set Agapetus of Synnada and Arsacius, who though celebrated as dragon-slayers, were historical persons". This episode of the dragon is in fact a very late development, which cannot be traced further back than the twelfth or thirteenth century. It is found in the Golden Legend (Historia Lombardic of James de Voragine and to this circumstance it probably owes its wide diffusion. It may have been derived from an allegorization of the tyrant Diocletian or Dadianus, who is sometimes called a dragon (ho bythios drakon) in the older text, but despite the researches of Vetter (Reinbot von Durne, pp.lxxv-cix) the origin of the dragon story remains very obscure.
quote:The infidel policy on the question is to deny the possibility of possession in any circumstances, either on the supposition, that there are no evil spirits in existence, or that they are powerless to influence the human body in the manner described. It was on this principle that, according to Lecky the world came to disbelieve in witchcraft: men did not trouble to analyse the evidence that could be produced in its favour; they simply decided that the testimony must be mistaken because "they came gradually to look upon it as absurd" (op. cit., p. 12). And it is by this same a priori principle, we believe, that Christians who try to explain away the facts of possession are unconsciously influenced. Though put forward once as a commonplace by leaders of materialistic thought, there is a noticeable tendency of late years not to insist upon it so strongly in view of the admission made by competent scientific inquirers that many of the manifestations of Spiritism cannot be explained by human agency (cf. Miller, op. cit., 7-9). But whatever view Rationalists may ultimately adopt, for a sincere believer in the Scriptures there can be no doubt that there is such a thing as possession possible. And if he is optimistic enough to hold that in the present order of things God would not allow the evil spirits to exercise the powers they naturally possess, he might open his eyes to the presence of sin and sorrow in the world, and recognize that God causes the sun to shine on the just and the unjust and uses the powers of evil to promote His own wise and mysterious purposes (cf. Job, passim; Mark v, 19).
That mistakes were often made in the diagnosis of cases, and results attributed to diabolical agency that were really due to natural causes, we need have no hesitation in admitting. But it would be illogical to conclude that the whole theory of possession rests on imposture or ignorance. The abuse of a system gives us no warrant to denounce the system itself. Strange phenomena of nature have been wrongly regarded as miraculous, but the detection of the error has left our belief in real miracles intact. Men have been wrongly convicted of murder, but that does not prove that our reliance on evidence is essentially unreasonable or that no murder has ever been committed. A Catholic is not asked to accept all the cases of diabolical possession recorded in the history of the Church, nor even to form any definite opinion on the historical evidence in favour of any particular case. That is primarily a matter for historical and medical science (cf. Delrio, "Disq. mag. libri sex", 1747; Alexander, "Demon. Possession in the N. T.", Edinburgh, 1902).
The second article certainly does concede mistakes, but it's quite discernable that they're not going to budge from a literal belief in possession. Whereas in the first article, the author seems more concerned about proving that the Church did not usurp the myth of Perseus, etc. The question of "the literal existence of dragons" is never even raised. I do understand their argument that Jesus does appear to differentiate between mental/physical illness and possession according to Mark and Matthew's Gospels. But what, prey tell, would the Church have done if it was written that Jesus, of all people, had slain a dragon? Would the Papacy hesitantly place the post of "dragon-slayer" in every Diocese? The more important question: is it really an affront to the Christian faith or the life of Jesus to grant more of a mythological reference to "possession"?
quote:Originally posted by AdmiralDinty: I'm not sure if the will necessarily has anything to do with it. The possession of the young boy in Maryland (after which "the Exorcist" was based) was supposedly due to his use of the ouija board and other occult instruments in an attempt to contact his deceased aunti.
You'd know more than me, AdmiralDinty, but I've always read exorcists stressing an individual's willful allowance of Satan into their body as the spiritual cause of possession. The quoted priests in the article snopes posted appear to reflect this attitude.
As well, I've read exorcists making the odious claim that the young boy in Maryland, by sheer acceptance of "heretical instruments," did, thus, willfully allow the Devil entry. Thomas Aquinas may have even agreed.
IIRC, medieval Catholicism taught that a child, upon reaching the age of 7, was personally responsible for the state of their soul. I'm not sure if any Council has attempted to definitively address this belief in more recent times.
-------------------- The salty fragrance of L’EauD’I’mNotDedalus - made entirely of and entirely for sea turtles. Posts: 1983 | From: Chicagoland, IL | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by AdmiralDinty: I'm not sure if the will necessarily has anything to do with it. The possession of the young boy in Maryland (after which "the Exorcist" was based) was supposedly due to his use of the ouija board and other occult instruments in an attempt to contact his deceased aunti.
I realize this has nothing to do with the doctrine concerning personal willingness and possession, but wasn't the final verdict of the RCC that this case was not an actual possession? I seem to recall (but cannot confirm via Googling, as most of the sites with information about the events are aimed at paranormal enthusiasts), it was decided that the boy was mentally ill, possibly contributed to by being sexually abused by his aunt before she died.
-------------------- "Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."
George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra Posts: 4847 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by AdmiralDinty: I'm not sure if the will necessarily has anything to do with it. The possession of the young boy in Maryland (after which "the Exorcist" was based) was supposedly due to his use of the ouija board and other occult instruments in an attempt to contact his deceased aunti.
I realize this has nothing to do with the doctrine concerning personal willingness and possession, but wasn't the final verdict of the RCC that this case was not an actual possession? I seem to recall (but cannot confirm via Googling, as most of the sites with information about the events are aimed at paranormal enthusiasts), it was decided that the boy was mentally ill, possibly contributed to by being sexually abused by his aunt before she died.
I've never heard that (but that doesn't mean it's not true). From what I've seen/read of the case, the boy was "cured" following an exorcism at an Alexian Brothers hospital (don't remember the name). Usually, the psychological investigation is conducted before, and not after the exorcism.
-------------------- "I wanna bite the hand that feeds me. I wanna bite that hand so badly. I wanna make them wish they'd never seen me." - Elvis Costello Posts: 2291 | From: The Banks of the Merrimack, MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm still going nuts trying to find out where someone mentioned this last year. They had a link to the boy's story. It was several pages long (the boy's story link, I mean). Basically, it said he was faking. He'd been locked in a room by himself, claim he was getting better, then would start up again. He'd have "devil's scratchings" on his body, but they determinted he was scratching himself with nails or some other sharp part of his bed. Then he'd be fine and ready to go home, then he'd act up "possessed" again.
-------------------- I would prefer not to. My blog Posts: 4789 | From: Rhode Island | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I liked Barbara G. Walker's description of the exorcism ceremony, in her Woman's Dictionary of Symbols and Sacred Objects. Emphasis mine:
quote:During the course of many long and tiresome addresses to the demon(s), to God, to angels and archangels, to saints, and in fact to almost everyone except the subject himself, the invasive spirit is commanded to surrender, to go away, to leave, to give in, to desist, to take flight, to get out (twice), to retire (twice), to go out (four times), to depart (six times), to give way (seven times), to be uprooted and expelled, and to be put to flight now. Yet all these dismissals are interspersed with rhetorical questions showing that the creature is not dismissed: Why do you stay? Why do you resist? Why dare refuse? All the foregoing commands are bolstered up by the Mysteries of the Incarnation, the Suffering, Death, Resurrrection, and Ascension of Our Lord Jesus Christ; the sending of the Holy Spirit; the Last Judgment; the name of the Judge of the Living and the Dead; Our Creator; God the Father; God the Son; God the Holy Spirit; the faith of the Holy Apostles; the blood of Martyrs; the purity of the Confessors; the pious and holy intercession of all the Saints; the Word made Flesh; and the strength of the mysteries of the Christian Faith, not to mention assorted Cherubim and Seraphim, Powers and Virtues and Dominations of Heaven, and much more. One would think that all this heavy armament would be effective. In fact the demon is told that "it is impossible for you to will to resist," and "it is impossible for you to refuse to obey." And yet, one little demon can hold out quite well against all these superpowers, it seems. The creature hangs on, and must be told again and again to depart. Exorcism seems at best a creaky vehicle for God's intercession.
The ritual is kept up until the exorcist sees "signs of liberation," which, however, are not described. The directions only include a warning that demons often produce a false apparance of liberation, as if "the subject of Exorcism is not possessed at all." How this is to be distinguished from the real thing is never made clear. Apparently, the ritual of exorcism is virtually interminable, going on until everybody is tired of it and/or the victim-hysteric-performer runs out of ideas for outrageous things to say or do. Then he or she is either pronounced cured, or relegated to psychiatric ministrations that probably should have been appplied in the first place.
-------------------- “Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.” -- Edward R. Murrow
posted
Lets look at the bible: It says quite clearly, that any christian can cast out a demon in the name of god, it doesn't need a ceremony.
Posts: 110 | From: Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Bubby: Lets look at the bible: It says quite clearly, that any christian can cast out a demon in the name of god, it doesn't need a ceremony.
But isn't there also a story in the Bible about a demon who sassed back, saying "I know who Jesus is, but who are you?" Acts 19:13-20
Silas
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Bubby: Lets look at the bible: It says quite clearly, that any christian can cast out a demon in the name of god, it doesn't need a ceremony.
But isn't there also a story in the Bible about a demon who sassed back, saying "I know who Jesus is, but who are you?" Acts 19:13-20
Those were Jews, not Christians, in that example. Presumably the demon didn't know who they were b/c they were invoking the name of God but weren't baptised.
I know in ancient demonology you were supposed to call out the name of the demon in order to 'cure' someone and the demon had to have a reason to pay attention to you. Names of demons were given to parts of the human body, such as in The Testament of Solomon (line 73+), which is almost like an ancient Physicians Desk Reference.
-------------------- No man has a right in America to treat any other man "tolerantly" for tolerance is the assumption of superiority. -Wendell L. Willkie Posts: 3833 | From: Virginia | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
The demon said that he didn't know the people who were trying to cast him out because the people were doing it with the wrong attitude. They wanted to have power and have people look up to them, and they weren't really trusting in Jesus' name to drive the demon out. Also, Jesus only used the demon's name once; the rest of the time he drove them out by commanding it. I think the catholic church just added a lot to the whole process over time.
-------------------- Sometimes the only sense you can make out of life is a sense of humor. Posts: 11 | From: Wake Forest, NC | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I believe that demon posession is very real. I also believe it can come in many different forms, in different people. I think for the most part it would be a person who is confused (like in a ditzy way), does not act rationally and so on.
I am not saying I agree with this, but there are some people who would argue that some mental illnesses are actually a person being posessed by the devil.
I do not claim to know everything, believe me. This is simply my thoughts.
-------------------- Kilikina
My Blog Posts: 2 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
One more note. Sorry. You cannot be posessed by both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of the Devil. It is impossible. It is the name of God that the Devil can be run out of a person
-------------------- Kilikina
My Blog Posts: 2 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Kilikina: I believe that demon posession is very real. I also believe it can come in many different forms, in different people. I think for the most part it would be a person who is confused (like in a ditzy way), does not act rationally and so on.
I am not saying I agree with this, but there are some people who would argue that some mental illnesses are actually a person being posessed by the devil.
I do not claim to know everything, believe me. This is simply my thoughts.
Welcome to the board Kilikina - can I ask you what you base your belief on - experience, information from others, a 'gut-feeling'?
Dropbear
-------------------- " The villagers had said justice had been done, and she'd lost patience and told them to go home, then, and pray to whatever gods they believed in that it was never done to them. -- (Terry Pratchett) Posts: 823 | From: Hobart, Tasmania | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well funny how it can be easier to explain things away with possesion. Sort of how Dracula the vampire is a lot more palatabl;e then Vlad the Impaler who killed lots of people in horrible ways. Now at a glance it might seem that letting people persist in this delusion would be healthy because it helps them cope. But I've never been one to agree that simply ignoring a problem is a good way of dealing with it. I've always been a seeker of truth, and funnily enough I am not pessimistic person but I still see the best in things nonetheless. Odd, huh?
And wasn't there an article in Skeptic magazine saying that they tried to find out if people who believed in god lived longer because they were more optimistic? I know they concluded that actually there was no evidence suggesting that one group lived longer then another.
quote:Originally posted by snopes: To many people, demonic possession conjures the image of swivel-necked Linda Blair in the 1973 movie, "The Exorcist." But the Catholic Church says true possession is rare, separated from insanity and fraud only by a show of extraordinary abilities, such as superhuman strength and a facility with languages previously unknown to the tormented person.
Well, in the Exorcist (book and movie), this point is made. Damien Karras has to go through quite a few steps before he can prove that little Regan is possessed. Even though she herself was unaware of most of the languages she was spouting, Damien realizes that a lot of them (the Russian and the German) are known to people in the house. So she may be picking up telepathically on what others know--however, this isn't proof of posession. The same thing happens with the holy water test. It's only when he sees her tracing "Help me" onto her skin, I believe, that he concludes that it is possession.
-------------------- "You can't play Electro-magnetic Golf according to the rules of Centrifugal Bumble Puppy." -Mustapha Mond, "Brave New World" Posts: 679 | From: New York | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Good discussion on demons; afew things came to mind while reading. In Proverbs it says as one thinks so they are(paraphrased). The recent "Heroes" series on tv at least suggests the range of human potential,perhaps-if we think so.In Baird T. Spaulding's "Life and Teachings of the Masters of the Far East", Jesus appears amongst the masters they encountered. When asked what He thought about satan and hell He responded that He "never knew them to exist but in the minds of men". My investigation of the spirit relm revealed to me that is made up of thoughts. I also understand that when human spirits don't "go to the light" they get stuck here and perhaps "take over" the weak and unsuspecting or the willing. I'm sure there's still much to know(or not).Hope this is helpful to some
-------------------- dont know ubb Posts: 2 | From: Hermiston, Oregon | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm curious, glenn57 (welcome, by the way). What does your investigation of the spirit realm consist of? You're not the first one to put this theory out there, and I'm curious as to how you reached it.
-------------------- Last year's goat was burned down by vandals dressed up as Santa Claus and the Gingerbread Man. They were never caught. My blog. The Adventures of the Fish O'Thwacking. Countdown: 177 days (or less!) Posts: 4926 | From: NW Ohio | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
