posted
The 'Fortean Times' this month (July, 2006) has a short item about an article in The Journal of Paleolimnology. (Apparently this is the study of prehistoric lakes, essential reading I would have thought.)
quote: The study points to a rare combination of optimal water and atmospheric conditions for development of a unique, localized freezing phenomenon that Nof and his co-authors call "springs ice."
In what is now northern Israel, such ice could have formed on the cold freshwater surface of the Sea of Galilee—known as Lake Kinneret by modern-day Israelis—when already chilly temperatures briefly plummeted during one of the two protracted cold periods between 2,500 and 1,500 years ago.
A frozen patch floating on the surface of the small lake would have been difficult to distinguish from the unfrozen water surrounding it. The unfrozen water was comprised of the plumes resulting from salty springs situated along the lake's western shore in Tabgha—an area where many archeological findings related to Jesus have been documented.
Can this be true? If the salt springs did stop normal currents would it be cold enough to form ice (even with these cold spells)? Could the ice support a man?
-------------------- Andrew, Ware, England Posts: 1709 | From: Ware, England | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
He must have been an acrobat. Have you ever tried to stand on a surf board for the first time? It isn't easy. On a piece of ice? It would have to be a honkin' big piece of ice for me to believe that a man could stand on it without being dumped in the sea a few times. I don't believe that Jesus could have practiced walking on ice.
He obviously was using an antigravity pack.
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I won't ask "Am I weird?" because that ship sailed long ago. -Kahuna Burger Posts: 394 | From: Memphis, TN | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I really, really think that is one one of the biggest pieces of **** I have had the misfortune to read in a long time. Be serious. Even if the water could freeze like that it would never support any weight. Jesus walked on water cause he was JESUS.
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posted
Private brain care specialist Gag Halfrunt: "Vell, Jesus's just zis guy, you know?"
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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Katie: I think we have to look at this from the viewpoint that Jesus was just a guy, vfwchick.
I do get what you are saying, but Jesus was not just a guy, he is JESUS. Of course that is my opinion, and apparently not the opinion of a lot of people. Anyway, I don't believe that anyone could walk on floating ice that no one else could see. Thanks for the link Canuckistan.
-------------------- God bless our Troops! If you can't stand behind our troops, please, feel free to stand in front of them. Posts: 380 | From: Ohio | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
It's my opinion as well, vfwchick. I feel that if Jesus is God (which I believe) then he doesn't need ice to walk on water. He made the laws of nature so he can break them!
However, whether you believe Jesus was God or not the story does not stand up. If, and it's a big if, Jesus did walk on thick ice then how come the disciples did not notice? They must have walked across the ice, with their boat, themselves to get to the clear water in the middle of the lake.
-------------------- Andrew, Ware, England Posts: 1709 | From: Ware, England | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
If you don't believe that walking on water was miraculous, isn't the much more rational explanation that this episode was fabricated in the gospel, rather than that it happened through some bizarre coincidence of nature?
--Logoboros
-------------------- "If Men were Wise, the Most arbitrary Princes could not hurt them. If they are not wise, the Freest Government is compelld to be a Tyranny."
posted
The Bible doesn't say, scientifically, how Jesus walked on water. For all we who take the Bible literally know, he could have hovered a milimeter above the water, turned the column of water directly beneath his feet into rock, massively increased the surface tension under him, etc. If the science itself of the ice theory holds up, I see no reason why that wouldn't be one possibility for what Jesus did.
Many modern Christians subscribe to the idea that many of the miracles in the Bible were, more than anything else, miracles of timing. The plagues and the parting of the Red Sea in Exodus have been described as all purely natural phenomena that would occur from time to time, but the timing in that one instance was so exact that the Egyptians felt the brunt but the Hebrews were spared.
Just the same, the article in the OP says that the frozen ice had only happened a handful of times in the past 12,000 years. It would be an amazing feat for Jesus to be at the exact spot in the sea at the exact time ice was floating by...a miracle of timing.
quote: It's my opinion as well, vfwchick. I feel that if Jesus is God (which I believe) then he doesn't need ice to walk on water. He made the laws of nature so he can break them!
Since the ice is supposed to be such a rare natural occurrence, it is possible that Jesus actually "broke the laws of nature" and summoned or created the ice at the time and place he needed.
Personally, I give the ice theory very little credence because it lacks any cooberating evidence that the witnesses (such as Peter, who walked on water with Jesus that day) would have seen and reported.
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"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?" - The Brain Posts: 587 | From: Colorado | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
In all of history, the most common and likely explanation for miracles is some kind of story (a tall tale, an exaggeration, an urban legend, a fib...).
Posts: 4922 | From: Kyoto, Japan | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
As someone who see way too much ice every winter, I can vouch for the fact that ice is easily distinguishable from water.
I also doubt that cold weather in that area persists long enough for a walkable ice to form (at least 20 mm, more if it's just a smaller float). Remember, it's not the air that needs to get cold, it's the water, and water retains heat much better than air.
As others have said, there are two possibilities:
1. You don't believe and it's all a lie/exaggeration. 2. You believe and the guy walked on water.
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I don't know if any of you caught The Cobert Report on Comedy Central a couple of months ago about this Jesus on an ice float.
They had a great bit on it. Colbert had a video that proved it was possible to walk on water [The Cars "Magic" video] and then he interviewed Ric Ocasek.
-------------------- "There is no Heaven So I can't believe in Room 19." -Bob Geldof Posts: 207 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Grand Illusion: The Bible doesn't say, scientifically, how Jesus walked on water. For all we who take the Bible literally know, he could have hovered a milimeter above the water, turned the column of water directly beneath his feet into rock, massively increased the surface tension under him, etc. If the science itself of the ice theory holds up, I see no reason why that wouldn't be one possibility for what Jesus did.
Many modern Christians subscribe to the idea that many of the miracles in the Bible were, more than anything else, miracles of timing. The plagues and the parting of the Red Sea in Exodus have been described as all purely natural phenomena that would occur from time to time, but the timing in that one instance was so exact that the Egyptians felt the brunt but the Hebrews were spared.
Just the same, the article in the OP says that the frozen ice had only happened a handful of times in the past 12,000 years. It would be an amazing feat for Jesus to be at the exact spot in the sea at the exact time ice was floating by...a miracle of timing.
quote: It's my opinion as well, vfwchick. I feel that if Jesus is God (which I believe) then he doesn't need ice to walk on water. He made the laws of nature so he can break them!
Since the ice is supposed to be such a rare natural occurrence, it is possible that Jesus actually "broke the laws of nature" and summoned or created the ice at the time and place he needed.
Personally, I give the ice theory very little credence because it lacks any cooberating evidence that the witnesses (such as Peter, who walked on water with Jesus that day) would have seen and reported.
but, it was never a 'red sea' the bible says reed sea, not red sea.
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Read at your own risk. Posts: 667 | From: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
This again? OK, I am not an OT scholar, and I would love callee or someone similar to drop by and comment on this. I have heard this one a few times, the whole red/reed thing. It is easy for us to here it, and nod sagely, and say "why of course, that makes so much sense, they are only one letter different - it's probably just a slight copying error or something." The only problem is that the original was written in Henrew, not English. The words in Hebrew (for reed, red, and Red Sea) are all totally different, and not possible to mix up that easily. The reason "Red Sea" is used in the English translations is that is what is there in the Hebrew. Not that that has anything to do with Jesus walking on water anyway, because from memory that was Galilee.
me
-------------------- Check out my handmade pens Check back often because the page changes often Posts: 831 | From: Brisbane, Australia | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Regarding 'Red' and 'Reed' Seas the story I was told was that the 1611 translators correctly translated the Hebrew to be 'Reed', but they had not heard of this sea so thought it must be 'Red' (even though they must have known the Hebrew word for 'red').
I was never convinced, but I can understand that maybe a secretary copied the translated text incorrectly and this was not picked up before the book was printed.
(There are lots of early editions of the Authorised Bible with spelling or printing errors, some more embarrassing than others. For example, there is one version where the word 'not' is missed out of one of the Ten Commandments and so God is apparently telling people that it is all right to commit adultery.)
-------------------- Andrew, Ware, England Posts: 1709 | From: Ware, England | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Not to mention, when He walked on the water, there was a horrible storm going on. Surging waves as tall as the ship and yet He was 'walking calmly' on the surface. Remember the guy who got out of the boat and went to Jesus, also walking on water? He saw the sizes of the waves and freaked out, and started to sink. That's when Jesus pulled him up again and asked him why he doubted.
Ice firstly doesn't form on raging water, and if the ice was already there, it would be tossed and flipping around, not stable enough for a man to stand upon and just float over. If Jesus had such power as to make the ice stable and float where He wanted to go to make it seem like He was walking on the water...why not just walk on the water?
Posts: 58 | From: Seattle, WA | Registered: Mar 2006
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as I pointed out on another thread, I really see all this as not only a waste of time, but a distraction. For the believer, the value in this story is (should be!) in what it can tell us of the nature of God and Christ; for the non-believer, surely the obvious solution (that the story was fabricated) makes a great deal more sense than attempting to create "scientific" explanations of the events.
- Jonathan
-------------------- Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name? Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?
posted
Why can't you just believe in the miracle? Why are you so skeptical? Just take it that Jesus was God's son and he ruled over the earth; therefore, he had the power to walk on water. If it was just ice, Jesus and the disciples would NOT have been out on a boat and the disciples would not have been amazed.
-------------------- I LOVE GOD MORE THAN ANYTHING! Posts: 4 | From: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
If it was ice, Jesus and the disciples would not have been out on a boat. The Bible states that there was a storm that Jesus calmed. Waves were crashing into the boat. Do waves crash into boats on ice? I think not. Why are you so skeptical? Why can't you just believe in the miracle?
-------------------- I LOVE GOD MORE THAN ANYTHING! Posts: 4 | From: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
If it was ice, Jesus and the disciples would not have been out on a boat. The Bible states that there was a storm that Jesus calmed. Waves were crashing into the boat. Do waves crash into boats on ice? I think not. Why are you so skeptical? Why can't you just believe in the miracle?
-------------------- I LOVE GOD MORE THAN ANYTHING! Posts: 4 | From: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: Jul 2006
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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by LoveofGod: Why can't you just believe in the miracle? Why are you so skeptical?
This is a board of skeptics; that's why. We don't just accept, we need evidence. (ETA: By the way, there are plenty of Christians on this board. Just so you know.)
quote:Just take it that Jesus was God's son and he ruled over the earth; therefore, he had the power to walk on water.
Cite, please.
quote:If it was just ice, Jesus and the disciples would NOT have been out on a boat and the disciples would not have been amazed.
Two words: Sigmund. Roy.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by LoveofGod: If it was ice, Jesus and the disciples would not have been out on a boat. The Bible states that there was a storm that Jesus calmed. Waves were crashing into the boat. Do waves crash into boats on ice? I think not. Why are you so skeptical? Why can't you just believe in the miracle?
There's no problem accepting it for me. The problem comes when you have to determine which miracles (or prophets, preachers, religions, myths, stories... etc. etc.) to accept. At that point you run into a conundrum. Why don't you accept miracles of other holy people, such as Siddhartha or Mohammed? (The latter made no claims to miracles other than the Koran. But why don't you just accept it?) There are many many others, even in our own times, miracles witnessed by many people. Will you accept every charlatan and trickster who crosses your path?
Therefore, I choose to use what intellect and reason I may have to look at the evidence, such as it is, and not to simply accept everything I am told.
Posts: 4922 | From: Kyoto, Japan | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
There's a sea called The Red Sea, and a sea called "Yam-Suf," which is what the Hebrew Torah says the Israelites crosses to leave Egypt. "Yam-Suf" more of less translates to "Sea of Reeds." "Red Sea" in Hebrew would be "Yam-Edom." It's a simple coincidence that "reed" and "red" are a letter apart in English.
The confusion arises from the fact that no one knows just where the Sea of Reeds is supposed to be. The word translated "sea," "yam," just means "large body of water." It coud have been a lake, a wide river, or even a series of lagoons. The Red Sea was long considered the most obvious candidate for the Sea of Reeds, so early translations of Exodus call Yam-Suf the Red Sea.
Later scholars decided that the Israelites did not, in fact, cross the Red Sea, but in any event, it was considered prudent to translate "Yam-Suf" exactly, instead of trying to interpret it based on modern geography.
Posts: 75 | From: Bloomington, IN | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Jesus didn't write the bible, his friends did. And you know how your friends always screw up the story. 'Jesus walked on water!' No. It was a puddle. You were drunk.
posted
While the thing is the Sea of Reeds was known to be a swamp for a long time. There are no reeds along the red sea and anyone with a damn brain that had been to the region could see that to have a sea of reeds you would have to be have a swamp.
It should also be noted that a group of people couldn't cross the red sea in the amount of time the event supposedly took place even at the shortest crossing point.
A swamp could drain out enough for people to cross then fill in the same day on a group of people trying to cross it as well. Supposedly Napolean crossing into Egypt saw a similar event take place in which a swampy area dried out in a short amount of time allowing his troops to cross then it filled back in. I don't have a cite for it though.
Of course the Jewish slaves in Egypt thing is probably bull since the pyramids weren't built by slaves but farmers in the two flood season which was several months of the year. They got paid in food rations for their work. It was volunteer work though but those farmers doing it got food to buy stuff including a place up in Egyptian society.
Posts: 320 | From: Birmingham, Alabama | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Andrew of Ware, England: (There are lots of early editions of the Authorised Bible with spelling or printing errors, some more embarrassing than others. For example, there is one version where the word 'not' is missed out of one of the Ten Commandments and so God is apparently telling people that it is all right to commit adultery.)
Ah, yes, the infamous "Wicked Bible." I personally prefer the "Bugger All This" bible... (10 for ref.)
-------------------- [God said] "I'll just sit back in the shade while everyone gets laid; that's what I call intelligent design." - Chris Smither, "Origin of the Species" Posts: 411 | From: Fairfield, CT | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by tootiredtocare: Of course the Jewish slaves in Egypt thing is probably bull since the pyramids weren't built by slaves but farmers . . .
You are correct...however, Exodus doesn't say that the Children of Israel were enslaved and made to build pyramids, only that they were made to build "store cities, Pithom and Rameses." It is a later legend that they built temples and palaces (see the animated "Prince of Egypt") but the Bible only has them building granaries.
Silas
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I should have been more clear. No evidence that the Jews were an enslaved people by the Egyptians. Slaves were actually treated pretty well and had rights under the laws of the land.
Posts: 320 | From: Birmingham, Alabama | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by tootiredtocare: Slaves were actually treated pretty well and had rights under the laws of the land.
I was under the impression everything was fine for the Israelites until the unnamed psycho pharaoh in Exodus 1 sees them as a threat, right before Moses is born. Sort of like Jewish citizens had rights in Germany until Hitler came along.
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posted
First of all the entire creation vs. evolution fight is about people taking the bible to be a science book. The same can be said about using it for a history book.
Believers: can't you look at the meaning behind the story. Instead of thinking this is a true story. Jesus walks on water because he has magic powers that derive from him being the second person in the Holy Trinity; think, the apostles were being tossed and were afraid and where they didn't expect Jesus to come to them (walking across the water). Also he gave Peter the power to walk on water which Peter did until he took his eyes off of Jesus and got frightened and then sank. Jesus had to pull him out again. Bible Group discussion topic: How have we been like Peter in our lives.
So if an Angle came down from heaven and declared that this story was not factual but was made up by a disciple to explain how their lives are helped by "keeping their eyes on Jesus", would that lessen your faith? Would it change the message that you took away from the story?
Non Beleivers: We know well that human beings don't transform into large insects. Does that mean we can't get any meaning from Kafka's "Metamorphosis"? The only possible relavance I see from this information is that maybe one winter there was ice on the Sea of Galilee and Jesus was the only one with the nerve to walk on it; years later that story evolves into the story in the gospels.
-------------------- "When we talk about democracy, if the people's stomach is empty, democracy is also empty. Democracy cannot be installed by fiat; it must be achieved by the people themselves." Y.C. James Yen (1893-1990) Posts: 146 | From: San Jose, California | Registered: Oct 2005
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