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CBS 11 has news of what could turn out to be one of the biggest discoveries in the history of both archaeology, and Christianity. A group of men, including several north Texans, believes it has found the remains of Noah's Ark, but it's not where most think.
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13,000 feet above sea-level? How did the animals get down? I can see that the mountain goats and their ilk would probably be OK, but I don't see the sloths and elephants and giant tortoises and buffalo picking their way down precipitous crags.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Chloe: 13,000 feet above sea-level? How did the animals get down? I can see that the mountain goats and their ilk would probably be OK, but I don't see the sloths and elephants and giant tortoises and buffalo picking their way down precipitous crags.
It's 13,000 feet above sea level now. Doesn't mean it was 13,000 feet above sea level at the time of the flood, assuming the Biblical flood story is literally true. IIRC, the Bible account says that the rain stopped, not that God magically wiped away the floodwaters -- it may have taken some time for them to recede.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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Well, it did take time for the waters to recede, as it only rained for 40 days, but they floated around for much longer. But even so, unless the topography of that region looked much different, the animals must at some point have navigated precipitous drops in order to inhabit the regions they currently inhabit. Wouldn't it have been better to stay on the ark and let the waters recede further instead of climbing out on top of a mountain?
Still, I suppose it wouldn't have been as difficult as getting back to the far ends of the earth without being eaten by one another before they could reproduce.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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They came out on top of the mountain, as I always understood the story, because the boat drifted on top of it and got stuck:
quote:Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down, and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.
After forty days Noah opened the window he had made in the ark and sent out a raven, and it kept flying back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth. Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground. But the dove could find no place to set its feet because there was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back to himself in the ark. He waited seven more days and again sent out the dove from the ark. When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth. He waited seven more days and sent the dove out again, but this time it did not return to him.
By the first day of the first month of Noah's six hundred and first year, the water had dried up from the earth. Noah then removed the covering from the ark and saw that the surface of the ground was dry. By the twenty-seventh day of the second month the earth was completely dry.
Then God said to Noah, "Come out of the ark, you and your wife and your sons and their wives. Bring out every kind of living creature that is with you—the birds, the animals, and all the creatures that move along the ground—so they can multiply on the earth and be fruitful and increase in number upon it."
So Noah came out, together with his sons and his wife and his sons' wives. All the animals and all the creatures that move along the ground and all the birds—everything that moves on the earth—came out of the ark, one kind after another.
(Genesis 8:2-19)
Avril
-------------------- There is no failure unless one stops. --Ray Bradbury Posts: 2115 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Doesn't sound as if it's stuck, though, as it's another ten weeks before you can even see the tops of the mountains, and the water must be drying up pretty fast to manage 30,000 feet in just a few months. The keel would have to go down thousands of feet in order to be stuck (unless the water dried up at different rates--but the Bible says "steadily").
But in any case, the problem of the camels getting down a mountain that today requires professional mountain climbers to ascend is still a bit of a puzzler.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:A Houston lab used by the Smithsonian tested the alleged ark. Bonnema says they found that it was petrified wood, and that fossilized sea animals were buried inside it.
How long does it take for wood to become petrified? My understanding was that petrification is an extremely slow process. Also, petrification requires that the wood be submerged in minerilized water/mud. If the waters receeded, how was the wood submerged to become petrified?
How did fossilized sea animals get inside it? There wouldn't have been time for sea creatures inside the ark to become fossilized (assuming it had an aquarium). After the animals left, any sea creatures that were in it as part of the saving would have left as well. And if there weren't any sea creatures in the ark or they left after it landed, where did sea creatures come from when the ark is on top of a mountain, far from water. Finally, fossilization also requires mud to bury the sea creatures in.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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Chloe, perhaps animals were more rounded back in the day? I mean, humans lived a lot longer, and pi was equal to three , so maybe animals were shaped differently, so they could get down mountains easier. It might make them easier to pack into an ark, also.
Posts: 420 | From: Oxford, PA | Registered: Nov 2005
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Did anyone else think this story was going to suggest that Noah's ark was actually found in Texas? That would have proven the wide-spread belief there that God created Texas first and that He pretty much sucked at everything he did after that.
-------------------- Your ultimate source of superfluous flummery. Posts: 595 | From: South Carolina | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:The team's leader, Dr. Robert Cornuke, had determined that Noah's Ark couldn't be in Turkey, based on the description in the bible and the time frame.
quote:Bob Cornuke's Ph.D. was received in 2005 from Louisiana Baptist University, an unaccredited conservative Christian School, where he also serves as an adjunct speaker.
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Images of the supposed ark can be found here.
Images are at the top and bottom of the article.
-------------------- In politics, absurdity is not a handicap - Napoleon Bonaparte Posts: 1801 | From: The Forest City, Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Chloe: 13,000 feet above sea-level? How did the animals get down? I can see that the mountain goats and their ilk would probably be OK, but I don't see the sloths and elephants and giant tortoises and buffalo picking their way down precipitous crags.
That's easy: They disassembled parts of the Ark, building rafts. The animals got on the rafts and floated down with the receding waters.
Just look for more petrified wood at the feet of the mountain...
-------------------- My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear Posts: 2209 | From: Hamburg, Germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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Quit scoffing everyone! I for one am truly amazed that they found Gilgamesh's boat. BTW who is this Noah guy and why is he trying to take the credit?
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TwoGuyswithaHat: Images of the supposed ark can be found here.
Images are at the top and bottom of the article.
I'm not a geologist, but everything in that pictures looks like another interesting (not even odd) shaped basalt formation to me.
Apart from that:
quote: Noah’s Ark? For Real By Brannon S. Howse
June 16th, 2006
How many times have you yawned at the claim “Noah’s Ark Has Been Discovered”? Right, you say, and Elvis has been sighted again, too. People who hoped to find the famous vessel and the legendary voice have been pretty much in the same boat (so to speak)— No proof. Until today. (...)
quote: (...) Bob Cornuke (...) is cautiously — but enthusiastically — optimistic about the find: “We have no way of confirming for sure that this object is Noah’s Ark, ...”
No proof. Still.
Don "unbelieving" Enrico
-------------------- My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear Posts: 2209 | From: Hamburg, Germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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I have the feeling that those fossilised sea animals found in the rocks may mess up the claim that "the Bible is literal"
Wouldn't it be ironic if the discovery of the Ark disproves the Bible's creation myth?
Posts: 305 | From: South Africa | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote: Yeah, it's not like Jews would have any interest in proof of the literal truth of a story from the Hebrew bible.
I've seen one of those so called Jewish bibles and it's a blatant rip-off of the Christian Old Testament Posts: 2370 | From: Arabia | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis: Quit scoffing everyone! I for one am truly amazed that they found Gilgamesh's boat. BTW who is this Noah guy and why is he trying to take the credit?
It was actually Utnipishtim in Babylonian mythology, not Gilgamesh (though the two did meet). As for this Noah, he appears to be blatantly ripping off Deucalion.
With the evidence of this new discovery, I must say that my faith in Zeus has never been greater.
-------------------- You're an interesting man, Sergeant. You make enemies like a craftsman. Posts: 45 | From: Milwaukee, WI | Registered: Mar 2006
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It looks more like a columnar basalt outcropping than wood. I think they found the remnants of a volcanic plug exposed by erosion.
-------------------- "My neighbor asked why anyone would need a car that can go 190 mph. If the answer isn't obvious, and explaination won't help." - Csabe Csere Posts: 1225 | From: Wichita, Kansas | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Bob's team consisted of a Who's Who of business, law, and ministry leaders including Barry Rand (former CEO of Avis), the multiple best-selling author and Christian apologist Josh McDowell, Frank Turek (co-author with Norm Giesler of I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist), Boone Powell (former CEO of Baylor Medical Systems), and Arch Bonnema (president of Joshua Financial).
Notice what's missing from the list? How about an archaeologist? Or a geologist?
quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis: Quit scoffing everyone! I for one am truly amazed that they found Gilgamesh's boat. BTW who is this Noah guy and why is he trying to take the credit?
It was actually Utnipishtim in Babylonian mythology, not Gilgamesh (though the two did meet). As for this Noah, he appears to be blatantly ripping off Deucalion.
With the evidence of this new discovery, I must say that my faith in Zeus has never been greater.
OK, maybe I need to refresh my knowledge of Babylonian mythology before I make jokes. You just can't get away with any mistakes on snopes, god I love this place
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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The funniest thing about this to me is the numbers. If we accept that the Ark existed and came to rest there, 13000+ feet above sea level, it makes for an interesting amount of rainfall required. Even if there wasn't floating around time waiting for the water to recede, we have to say that in 40 days, sea level rose 13000 feet. Ignoring that the surface would keep getting larger as the radius got bigger, I just calculated the rate of rain needed to fill a 1 square foot column to 13000 feet in 40 days. It's about 13.5 feet per hour! Now, to get the ark up, you need 13.5 feet per hour of rain everywhere in the world, at the same time, for 40 days. And then all of that water, 2*10^21 gallons or 8*10^18 cubic meters, had to go somewhere. That's about 1/3 the volume of the moon, all in water dumped on the surface of the Earth. Then, on top of that, we're talking serious mass. 8*10^21 kg of water is contained in that mass. That's significant, since the Earth mass is about 6*10^24 kg. I'm not sure what adding that kind of mass would do to the Earth, but it can't be good. And it would have to be new water that god introduced, since that's more water than is actually present on Earth. I have no idea why I spent the time with this, but I just started going and couldn't stop.
-------------------- Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Posts: 262 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: Could the water have covered Mount Everest? Mt Everest is almost 9 km (5.5 miles) high. How, then, could the Flood have covered ‘all the high hills under the whole heaven’?
The Bible refers only to ‘high hills,’ and the mountains today were formed only towards the end of, and after, the Flood
quote:After the waters covered the mountains (verse 6), God rebuked them and they fled (verse 7); the mountains rose, the valleys sank down (verse 8) and God set a boundary so that they will never again cover the earth (verse 9).18 They are the same waters!
That is why the oceans are so deep, and why there are folded mountain ranges. Indeed, if the entire earth’s surface were leveled by smoothing out the topography of not only the land surface but also the rock surface on the ocean floor, the waters of the ocean would cover the earth’s surface to a depth of 2.7 kilometers (1.7 miles).19 We need to remember that about 70% of the earth’s surface is still covered by water. Quite clearly, then, the waters of Noah’s Flood are in today’s ocean basins.
Elwood, who is shaking his head at the number of people I know that will defend this statement to the death.
-------------------- "If I didn't see it and didn't know it was a real news report, I wouldn't believe it. I mean, how nutty can you get?"-Pat Robertson Oct 26, 2006. Posts: 2936 | From: Mean Streets of West Virginia | Registered: Feb 2003
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OK, if we cover Everest, it's 30 ft/hour of rainfall, with about 2*10^19 cubic meters of water massing at about 2*10^22 kg. Roughly 1% of the mass of the earth being added on as excess water. The world record for rainfall is 1.4 ft/hour, and that storm was over in 42 minutes. Yeah, the story of Noah's ark is literally true.
-------------------- Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Posts: 262 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Oct 2005
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1.) Everest either did not exist or was neither as high as it is today at the time of the Flood. Rather, God lifted up the mountains after the Flood story in order to contain the water.
2.) All of the water that is now in the world's oceans and rivers was then in "vapor canopy," basically a really thick cloud in the stratosphere. This canopy also blocked out UV radiation, giving the benefit of extraordinarily long life to Noah and his forebearers.
-------------------- "If I didn't see it and didn't know it was a real news report, I wouldn't believe it. I mean, how nutty can you get?"-Pat Robertson Oct 26, 2006. Posts: 2936 | From: Mean Streets of West Virginia | Registered: Feb 2003
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I can see that valleys would help to contain the water, but why mountains?
Also, were there really no oceans or rivers before Noah? Wasn't Eden supposed to be bounded by rivers? What did they flow into? Didn't God make the oceans and the waters quite early in the six-day process? If not, where did the fish live?
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Elwood: 2.) All of the water that is now in the world's oceans and rivers was then in "vapor canopy," basically a really thick cloud in the stratosphere. This canopy also blocked out UV radiation, giving the benefit of extraordinarily long life to Noah and his forebearers.
Oooh. I've never heard that one (and I don't think I would have forgotten it)! Whose theory is that?
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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Vapor canopies are out of fashion--turns out they can't hold much water before it gets ridiculously hot. Current popular sources for water include that it was trapped under the earth during creation, and spewed forth in volcanic activity.
Of course, this doesn't account for the 40 days and nights of rain over the whole earth. How much water would that need, Darth Credence? Say forty inches of rain on every square inch of the earth's surface? Still sounds like quite a lot to me.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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