quote:Originally posted by abigsmurf: from what I understand, historical evidence shows the pyramid builders were actually treated fairly well for hard manual laborers. Kinda puts a dampener on exodus thngs...
The Jews didn't build the pyramimds.
-------------------- All posts foretold by Nostradamus.
Turing test failures: 6 Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
True. And Exodus doesn't even claim they did (it refers to them creating store cities for the Pharoah), in spite of the common depiction of them making the pyramids.
- Jonathan
-------------------- Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name? Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?
quote:Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer: ETA: besides, they tend to be easy to clobber in reasoned debate. Real scholars like Callee or KingDavid8, now: those guys are *tough* to pin in a theological wrasslin' match!
"tough"?? I'm not sure I'd say "tough" because, well, I mean, that presumes that it's possible!
But with faith, all things are possible!
Silas (except maybe putting the toothpaste back in the tube)
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Maybe they could make a movie based on this book.
(BTW, I did read it. He makes some interesting points but depends too much on linguistic similarities to be convincing.)
Posts: 794 | From: Utrecht, Utrecht | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
ANyone who says Exodus did not, or could not, have happened might want to rent a couple movies I own- "The Exodus Revealed" and "the Search for the Real Mount Sinai" They do come to some different conclusions about where the crossing took place, but they do both find their way into Saudi Arabia and a mountain called Jebel Aloz (may have spelled it wrong).
When it comes to "proof"- I often think about the Trojan war and the Trojan horse. There was no evidence Troy was real until a little over 100 years ago. And, even today, is there any real proof that the Greeks really built a wooden horse and hid in it? Of course not- the Greeks could have conquered Troy in some other, less dramatic, way. But, since so much other evidence points to Troy being real, and the desription of the war being accurate in many details, why should we doubt this one detail- a large, wooden horse?
And why should we doubt the Bible so often, when so much of it has been shown to be accurate in many details? I'm not saying believe every single word, but to believe the people found a way out of Egypt - why is that one so impossible?
Posts: 479 | From: Owosso, MI | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Most sources I've read accept a migration of people now known as the Hebrews from Egypt to the land of Canaan. However, the events as described in the Bible are not necessarily a factual account of what happened, due to lack of corroborating evidence, archaeological records, etc.
As I mentioned before, I'm not really interested in distilling the Bible into a historical documentary. What is important in the Exodus story is not whether or not some middle eastern peasants escaped an oppressive government and conquered land elsewhere, but what theological and philosophical conclusions can be drawn from the way the story is told.
- Jonathan
-------------------- Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name? Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?
posted
According to Exodus, it was more than just a migration- it wa an escape with a miraculous event.
I've heard numerous theories about how the Exodus "really" happened - Maybe some second class prince saw a few natural disasters, and used them as a way to help a few thousand slaves escape through a swamp -
However, according to the two movies I mentioned- "The Search for the Real Mount Sinai" and "Exodus Revealed" they have found evidence that the truth may be a lot closer to what the Bible says than sceptics want to admit -
So, I say- usually I like Penn and Teller- but sometimes they are full of BS themselves. (actually you have to be full of BS to be a magician.)
Posts: 479 | From: Owosso, MI | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Cobra4J: . . . But, since so much other evidence points to Troy being real, and the desription of the war being accurate in many details, why should we doubt this one detail- a large, wooden horse?
But where do you stop? Do you, then, accept that Aphrodite and Ares, Olympian Gods, came to the plains before Troy and fought with spears? Do you accept that Achilles was literally invulnerable in every part of his body save only his one heel?
"In for a penny, in for a pound" is not always the best advice. By and large, snopesters are skeptics, and ask for evidence for propositions presented before them. Two things being in the same book is a fairly weak form of evidence.
Silas
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer: But where do you stop? Do you, then, accept that Aphrodite and Ares, Olympian Gods, came to the plains before Troy and fought with spears? Do you accept that Achilles was literally invulnerable in every part of his body save only his one heel?
Of course! The ancient texts say it's true...
-------------------- "My neighbor asked why anyone would need a car that can go 190 mph. If the answer isn't obvious, and explaination won't help." - Csabe Csere Posts: 1225 | From: Wichita, Kansas | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
- Evidence has been found that there was a city of Troy. OK. Most probably, this merchant city was wealthy and a danger to the Greeks' commercial interests in the region. So, a greek army raided, plundered and torched the city, which never recovered and was abandoned by the last survivors. Nothing to be proud of. Later on, a greek poet wrote an epic about this, high-styling an act of piracy to a glorious and fateful struggle that's still remembered today.
- More recent example : in 776, as Charlemagne's army was marching back to France after a short and unsuccessful campaign in Spain, the rear-guard under count Hrodland of Brittany was ambushed and slaughtered by a party of basque mountaineers. Some 4 centuries later, after the story had been embellished by countless minstrels, a french poet wrote an epic about this, high-styling a mere skirmish to a tremendous battle of heroic proportions, turning Knight Roland into an immortal symbol of courage that's still remembered today.
... Examples are countless. Just compare Tennyson's "Charge of the Light Brigade" to what actually happened in the field...
I fear Exodus may not be different : high-styling unglamourous facts to an epic that strenghtened the Hebrew's self-consciousness as a nation.
The rest is a matter of faith.
But I agree. Why debunk ? In films like "Troy" or "King Arthur" which tried to present things "as they could actually have been", I sorely missed the supernatural aspect of the original myths. Maybe the human psyche just needs heroes, and we want to believe in an embellished truth rather than face the facts.
-------------------- Desperate, but not serious. Posts: 689 | From: Confoederatio Helvetica | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Cobra4J: According to Exodus, it was more than just a migration- it wa an escape with a miraculous event.
I've heard numerous theories about how the Exodus "really" happened - Maybe some second class prince saw a few natural disasters, and used them as a way to help a few thousand slaves escape through a swamp -
However, according to the two movies I mentioned- "The Search for the Real Mount Sinai" and "Exodus Revealed" they have found evidence that the truth may be a lot closer to what the Bible says than sceptics want to admit -
So, I say- usually I like Penn and Teller- but sometimes they are full of BS themselves. (actually you have to be full of BS to be a magician.)
I'm fully aware of what the Bible says it was. However, all attempts to match it to any kind of archaeology or history tend to take the form of "well, there was this guy who kinda matches this guy in the Bible who's supposed to have been around at a similar time, and there was some kinda upheaval around the same time that could be the same as this, and someone else reported something that was similar to this, and look, these two words sound kinda similar..."
the phrase grasping at straws is an understatement to say the least. I'm curious as to what evidence these films present.
- Jonathan
-------------------- Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name? Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?
quote:Originally posted by Cobra4J: According to Exodus, it was more than just a migration- it wa an escape with a miraculous event.
I've heard numerous theories about how the Exodus "really" happened - Maybe some second class prince saw a few natural disasters, and used them as a way to help a few thousand slaves escape through a swamp -
However, according to the two movies I mentioned- "The Search for the Real Mount Sinai" and "Exodus Revealed" they have found evidence that the truth may be a lot closer to what the Bible says than sceptics want to admit -
So, I say- usually I like Penn and Teller- but sometimes they are full of BS themselves. (actually you have to be full of BS to be a magician.)
I'm fully aware of what the Bible says it was. However, all attempts to match it to any kind of archaeology or history tend to take the form of "well, there was this guy who kinda matches this guy in the Bible who's supposed to have been around at a similar time, and there was some kinda upheaval around the same time that could be the same as this, and someone else reported something that was similar to this, and look, these two words sound kinda similar..."
the phrase grasping at straws is an understatement to say the least. I'm curious as to what evidence these films present.
- Jonathan
One of the problems people have with the exodus story is a lack of evidence.
One thing the movies talk about is the reason for lack of evidence we've been looking in the wrong place. There is no evidence of a large Hebrew encampment near the mount Sinai on the Sinai penninsula. OK - but the Bible clearly says Moses looked after the flocks of his father in law- Jethro, priest of Midian, and that he probably saw the burning bush while in Midian. Where was Midian? NOT on the Sinai Penninsula, but it the land now called Saudi Arabia.
Just one bit of theory, now watch the movie for the rest.
Posts: 479 | From: Owosso, MI | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Cobra4J: Where was Midian? NOT on the Sinai Penninsula, but it the land now called Saudi Arabia.
(Looks back a few posts, checking if I had not already mentioned that book... Yup, I did... Anyway, it's called Bible Came from Arabia)Posts: 794 | From: Utrecht, Utrecht | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer: Do you accept that Achilles was literally invulnerable in every part of his body save only his one heel?
Sure - "...he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." [Gen. 3:15]
hoi 'Achilles Christ?' toider
-------------------- No man has a right in America to treat any other man "tolerantly" for tolerance is the assumption of superiority. -Wendell L. Willkie Posts: 3833 | From: Virginia | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
Kindly Wise
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales
posted
Has anyone heard this one? I remember it from the CBC science program "Quirks and Quarks" during the early 1990's:
In the cellars of the Boston Museum there is an Egyptian stela that describes a natural disaster in which a wall of water came out of the north and devastated not only the Eastern Desert but the Egyptian army and the band of "dissidents" with whom they were fighting.
As I recall, the timing was right to coincide with the volcanic destruction of the Island of Thera (1628 BCE), with the attendant tsunami and deformation of the Mediterranean coastline. That would put the occurrance in the Seventeenth Dynasty during the reign of the Hyksos pharaohs. I can believe that a coast-scouring tsunami would cause a decade of chaos, especially if it wiped out most of the Egyptian army.
From my particular perspective, the plagues of Egypt are remarkably like an outbreak of anthrax, which would not be unheard of in the aftermath of a volcanic eruption, local climatic chaos, with flooding of the Blue Nile and the consequences down-river.
posted
I never saw the Trojan Horse as feasible, and I doubt most people do. I have seen it used as a joke so many times.
A wooden horse big enough to hold an army large enough to take a city? The people inside the city just assume, as they are supposed to, that the army that beseiged them for years decided to go home and leave a big statue as an offering/apology? And the horse is moved inside the city-- how much would it weigh? It would have to be huge, and the men and their armor aren't light. And no one moving it says, "Gee, this m-f horse is *heavy* did they put gold inside or something? Let's see what's in it; it doesn't feel light enough to be totally hollow." And there's an entrance to a city that has been fortified enough to hold off enemy attacks for years, that you can move a giant horse statue through? And no one even posts a guard on it?
And didn't sitting around for hours inside the horse cramp the Greeks' legs and make them feel stifled, so that the first 5 minutes out of it, the just hobbled around going, "Ow, ow!" and then relieving themselves against the nearest handy wall because everyone had to hold their bladders for the last 18 hours. Come to think of it, their sweaty clothes didn't reek right through the slats and give them away?
The horse is just a *story*, to show that Odysseus was so smart he would come up with a way of winning a war no one else would conceive.
Posts: 457 | From: Sacramento, CA | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Kindly Wise: Has anyone heard this one? I remember it from the CBC science program "Quirks and Quarks" during the early 1990's:
They have an extensive listing of their programs going back to the late 80's. I couldn't find the one you were talking about but it must be in there somewhere. (One of my favorite radio shows.) http://www.radio.cbc.ca/programs/quirks/archives.htmPosts: 4922 | From: Kyoto, Japan | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Samantha Vimes: I never saw the Trojan Horse as feasible, and I doubt most people do. I have seen it used as a joke so many times.
A wooden horse big enough to hold an army large enough to take a city? ...
The horse is just a *story*, to show that Odysseus was so smart he would come up with a way of winning a war no one else would conceive.
The idea of the entire army being hidden in a horse is, yes, ridiculous. However, just like in the movie. Place a few soldiers in the horse, for a day or maybe even longer, wait until the Trojans have drunk themselves stupid with celebration, and then a handfull of "special forces" sneak out of the horse, signal the Greek army hiding out there somewhere, open the gates, and the rest is a slaughter.
Posts: 479 | From: Owosso, MI | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Samantha Vimes: And didn't sitting around for hours inside the horse cramp the Greeks' legs and make them feel stifled, so that the first 5 minutes out of it, the just hobbled around going, "Ow, ow!" and then relieving themselves against the nearest handy wall because everyone had to hold their bladders for the last 18 hours. Come to think of it, their sweaty clothes didn't reek right through the slats and give them away?
This sounds like a deleted scene from A History of the World, Part 1.
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
the heat in the horse would be intense and potentially fatal. However once inside the city walls you'd only need enough men to quickly take out the gate guards and hold the gates for 5-10 minutes until the army gets there. Pretty easy if you're able to silently kill the gate guards (which themselves probably have only 3 or 4 on duty)
Posts: 824 | From: England | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Samantha Vimes: I never saw the Trojan Horse as feasible, and I doubt most people do. I have seen it used as a joke so many times.
A wooden horse big enough to hold an army large enough to take a city? ...
The horse is just a *story*, to show that Odysseus was so smart he would come up with a way of winning a war no one else would conceive.
The idea of the entire army being hidden in a horse is, yes, ridiculous. However, just like in the movie. Place a few soldiers in the horse, for a day or maybe even longer, wait until the Trojans have drunk themselves stupid with celebration, and then a handfull of "special forces" sneak out of the horse, signal the Greek army hiding out there somewhere, open the gates, and the rest is a slaughter.
The movie? Try The Odyssey. I've always sort of wondered about how exactly they decided Troy existed. Basically, all they did was find a city along the coast of Asia Minor that had been destroyed about 3 thousand years ago. Note the period. Is it that strange that there was a city somewhere along the coast of Asia Minor? It's not like The Odyssey or the Iliad gave a precise location or any details describing the city to distinguish it from any other random city that an archeologist could uncover. And it's not like we found the remnants of a NFBSKing wooden horse at the site.
-------------------- "Dear Lord, please protect this rockethouse and all who dwell within..." Posts: 1093 | From: Japan | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[lol]](graemlins/lol.gif)
