posted
A post on Al Mohler's Blog indicates that our celebration of Christmas on December the 25th may not be taken from pagan festivals happening the same day after all.
An interesting read if nothing else.
Posts: 10 | From: Milwaukee, WI | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
The original article says the pagan celebration dates to AD 274, but Wiki says that the Christian celebration dates to AD 350-379. So that doesn't really help the Christian cause here.
The Tighe article strikes me as biased, but I can't say that Wiki isn't also.
-------------------- Patrick Posts: 576 | From: Illinois | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
"So if Christ was conceived on March 25, nine months later, he would have been born on Dec. 25."
40 weeks after March 25 is December 30. But I guess he was born 5 days early.
"He points out that the ancient Roman religions had no winter solstice festival."
I guess Romans are the only pagans that count. Never mind all the pagans that occupied northern Europe or the rest of the world.
Posts: 439 | From: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: Sep 2005
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Well, in Sweden we celebrate christmas on Dec 24 (even though the official red holiday in the calendar still is Dec 25), which goes back to old Viking traditions.
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quote:I guess Romans are the only pagans that count. Never mind all the pagans that occupied northern Europe or the rest of the world.
I think he is focusing on Romans because if Wiki is correct, the church hadn't spread to northern Europe before 350-379. They would have still been primarily in the empire at that time.
Posts: 50 | From: Louisville, KY | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:I guess Romans are the only pagans that count. Never mind all the pagans that occupied northern Europe or the rest of the world.
I think he is focusing on Romans because if Wiki is correct, the church hadn't spread to northern Europe before 350-379. They would have still been primarily in the empire at that time.
Exactly. The date was set when the Christian church moved north and came into contact with the nothern European heathens. At that point the church did pick up the symbols of the nothern European Yule celebration and incorperated those into Christmas celebrations.
Noemi
-------------------- Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult. My blog, no guarantees about witty or intelligent content. My current projects. Coveted Beads <---- our eBay store, new items being added somewhat regularly Posts: 8418 | From: Wyoming | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:I guess Romans are the only pagans that count. Never mind all the pagans that occupied northern Europe or the rest of the world.
I think he is focusing on Romans because if Wiki is correct, the church hadn't spread to northern Europe before 350-379. They would have still been primarily in the empire at that time.
Exactly. The date was set when the Christian church moved north and came into contact with the nothern European heathens. At that point the church did pick up the symbols of the nothern European Yule celebration and incorperated those into Christmas celebrations.
Noemi
I don't know what you are talking about. I can't count how many times I've seen evergreen pines and holly growing wild around Rome.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Would you PLEASE stop trying to bring fact into a good story? Jeez, the gall of some people!!
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Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it. Posts: 5622 | From: Jax, Florida | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Christianity didn't come to Germania until the 6th century and really didn't take hold until the 8th.
Saturnalia wasn't a solstice festival, but rather an agricultural festival (Saturn being the god of agriculture) beginning after the end of sowing.
How the seventeen century development of the Christmas tree is related to Saturnalia (which celebrated Saturn, the god of agriculture, at the end of the sowing) is beyond me.
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Turing test failures: 6 Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer: How the seventeen century development of the Christmas tree is related to Saturnalia (which celebrated Saturn, the god of agriculture, at the end of the sowing) is beyond me.
I think it's the same reason we see all the arguments trying to say Christ is actually a slightly camoflaged version any one of a number of deities. It is supposed to call the whole idea of Chrisitianity into question because it drew from other older traditions.
I think it is important to understand that some of the symbols are a later adoption and therefore aren't purely symbols of Christmas, but I think it's a bit silly to try to discredit a whole religion because of a superficial set of similarities to pagan beliefs.
Noemi
-------------------- Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult. My blog, no guarantees about witty or intelligent content. My current projects. Coveted Beads <---- our eBay store, new items being added somewhat regularly Posts: 8418 | From: Wyoming | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Woah, woah, I am not trying to discredit a whole religion, and I'm not saying Christmas has anything to do with Saturnalia. But Mohler says that the "ancient Roman religions had no winter solstice festival." This is not true. There were a whole range of solstice festivals in the larger world known to the Roman Empire, and the (earlier) festival of Saturnalia was extended to encompass the solstice and certainly carried some of the metaphysical weight we associate with solstice holidays.
That's all.
Posts: 330 | From: New Haven, VT | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by EthanMitchell: There were a whole range of solstice festivals in the larger world known to the Roman Empire, and the (earlier) festival of Saturnalia was extended to encompass the solstice and certainly carried some of the metaphysical weight we associate with solstice holidays.
The thing is that those festivals would not be specifically Roman, they would be Dacian or Gaulish or whatever the local culture was. If you are looking at specifically Roman festivals there isn't a winter solstice festival. Winter solstice festivals are focused on the lengthening of days and the return of spring so regardless of the time frame for it being extended Saturnalia still doesn't fit the bill because it has an entirely different focus.
Noemi
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"Emperor Aurelian established December 25 as the birthday of the "Invincible Sun" in the third century as part of the Roman Winter Solstice celebrations. Shortly thereafter, in 273, the Christian church selected this day to represent the birthday of Jesus, and by 336, this Roman solar feast day was Christianized."
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quote:Originally posted by Noemi: [I think it is important to understand that some of the symbols are a later adoption and therefore aren't purely symbols of Christmas, but I think it's a bit silly to try to discredit a whole religion because of a superficial set of similarities to pagan beliefs.
Noemi
Noemi, you are my very favoritest heathen ever.
I actually wrote an article about why it matters not a whit whether the date of Christmas drew from Saturnalia or not for my church's newsletter this month. I posted it here on my blog if anyone would like to see it.
-------------------- Last year's goat was burned down by vandals dressed up as Santa Claus and the Gingerbread Man. They were never caught. My blog. The Adventures of the Fish O'Thwacking. Countdown: 177 days (or less!) Posts: 4926 | From: NW Ohio | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by mage: I guess Romans are the only pagans that count. Never mind all the pagans that occupied northern Europe or the rest of the world.
When the ones who were establishing a tradition lived among Romans...YES.
-------------------- "Everyone has problems. They only vary in design" - Mama Duck Posts: 4988 | From: Spain | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Noemi: At that point the church did pick up the symbols of the nothern European Yule celebration and incorperated those into Christmas celebrations.
If it was the church, sure as hell it was local churches only and not everywhere. Down here in the Mediterranean, the Christmas tree, Santa Claus and all the assorted paraphernalia is strictly a 20th century thing.
JAime
-------------------- "Everyone has problems. They only vary in design" - Mama Duck Posts: 4988 | From: Spain | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer: How the seventeen century development of the Christmas tree is related to Saturnalia (which celebrated Saturn, the god of agriculture, at the end of the sowing) is beyond me.
I think it's the same reason we see all the arguments trying to say Christ is actually a slightly camoflaged version any one of a number of deities. It is supposed to call the whole idea of Chrisitianity into question because it drew from other older traditions.
I think it is important to understand that some of the symbols are a later adoption and therefore aren't purely symbols of Christmas, but I think it's a bit silly to try to discredit a whole religion because of a superficial set of similarities to pagan beliefs.
Noemi
Noemi that is very well put. This whole argument that Chritmas isn't Christian becuase it uses a lot of adopted symbols really "hangs my munchkin". If people are using the symbols to celebrate Christs birth then for them its a Christian celebration, if they are using the tree to celebrate Chanukah its aJewish celebration.
Noemi you throw a Yule log on the fire and celebrate Yule I'll throw one on and celebrate Xmas then we'll have some liquor to celebrate the Winter Solstice.
-------------------- I sat on the cat. Now he is flat. Think I'll wear him outside as a hat. 'Bout time he did something useful-- an original poem by Smoke (no cats were hurt in making this poem but one came damn close.) Posts: 374 | From: the right side of the Detroit River Ontario | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by mage: I guess Romans are the only pagans that count. Never mind all the pagans that occupied northern Europe or the rest of the world.
When the ones who were establishing a tradition lived among Romans...YES.
Not that this changes anything as far as the Northern European traditions go, but they also lived among Greeks, Egyptians, etc. did they not?
-------------------- 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, and 12 seconds. That is when the world will end. Posts: 7158 | From: D.C. | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by hoitoider: "Emperor Aurelian established December 25 as the birthday of the "Invincible Sun" in the third century as part of the Roman Winter Solstice celebrations. Shortly thereafter, in 273, the Christian church selected this day to represent the birthday of Jesus, and by 336, this Roman solar feast day was Christianized."
I have no clue where the 273 date comes from. The year 354 is usually given, as that is that date of the Philocalian Calendar. The date 205 is sometimes given, on the assumption that one MS of Hippolytus is authentic.
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Turing test failures: 6 Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by ali_marea: Not that this changes anything as far as the Northern European traditions go, but they also lived among Greeks, [...] did they not?
That's East Roman, you silly Westerner.
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Turing test failures: 6 Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by ali_marea: Not that this changes anything as far as the Northern European traditions go, but they also lived among Greeks, [...] did they not?
That's East Roman, you silly Westerner.
*grin*
I should have also emphasized Africans.
There were plenty of influences in the area besides the Romans.
-------------------- 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, and 12 seconds. That is when the world will end. Posts: 7158 | From: D.C. | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Noemi: At that point the church did pick up the symbols of the nothern European Yule celebration and incorperated those into Christmas celebrations.
If it was the church, sure as hell it was local churches only and not everywhere. Down here in the Mediterranean, the Christmas tree, Santa Claus and all the assorted paraphernalia is strictly a 20th century thing.
Oh certainly, and that is another thing that often gets missed in the US. People don't consider the fact that those things were adopted in certain regions and brought to the US but aren't a part of the traditions of other areas.
Noemi
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quote:Originally posted by ali_marea: There were plenty of influences in the area besides the Romans.
Old Rome ( ) was the dominate influence, followed by New Rome. Egyptian culture followed after that and then probably the Far East and West Africa. Germanic culture is probably at the bottom of the list for influences on Romans -- Germania was hostile territory for much of the Empire's existance.
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Turing test failures: 6 Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by smoke: Noemi that is very well put. This whole argument that Chritmas isn't Christian becuase it uses a lot of adopted symbols really "hangs my munchkin".
Thank you. It hangs my munchkin as well although I think it may be for different reasons. If you look at it if that invalidates Christmas and Christanity, then it also invalidates Wicca because Yule was adopted lock stock and barrel there, and so on. It's a really silly exercise all the way around, but so is people trying to claim that the symbols are solely Christian when they aren't.
quote:Noemi you throw a Yule log on the fire and celebrate Yule I'll throw one on and celebrate Xmas then we'll have some liquor to celebrate the Winter Solstice.
Deal. (Speaking of which, I just realized that Yule starts tomorrow and I'm not sure what I have in the house by way of alcohol. I guess I'll need to stop by the liquor store tomorrow.)
Noemi
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Deal. (Speaking of which, I just realized that Yule starts tomorrow and I'm not sure what I have in the house by way of alcohol. I guess I'll need to stop by the liquor store tomorrow.) Noemi [/QB][/QUOTE]
Well Happy Yule then.
BTW I was introduced to this a couple of years ago and highly recommend Sangsters Jamaican Rum Cream MMMMM!!!!
-------------------- I sat on the cat. Now he is flat. Think I'll wear him outside as a hat. 'Bout time he did something useful-- an original poem by Smoke (no cats were hurt in making this poem but one came damn close.) Posts: 374 | From: the right side of the Detroit River Ontario | Registered: Jun 2003
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Thanks! I'll have to see if I can find that type of rum.
Noemi
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This is a bit of a hijack and I'm probably gonna get some heat from self-proclaimed "pagans". The religion that is the direct decendant of classical greco-roman polytheism is... Christianity particular Eatern and Roman churches. Constantine was a lifelong devotee of Apollo, he was converted on his deathbed. He allied himself with Christianity after the battle of Milvan Bridge to seal his power. He did change the christian sabbath to Sunday. The cults of the gods and godesses were replaced with the cult of saints. 1000 years later the same would happen when Africans brought to the new world as slaves would blend west african spirits with christian saints.
So Saturnalia was turned into Christ's Mass. As christianity spread from the old roman empire into germanic Norhern Europe it assimilated Norse customs into christianity, i.e mistletoe (maybe that's celtic) yule logs, and Father Christmas.
I was browsing a book on St. Nicholas at a store. In Myra (southern Turkey) St.Nicholas replaced Poisiden as the patron/protector of sailors. St. Micholas, patron of Sailors, merchants and children. (Happy Advent Shopping Season!)
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