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NewZer0
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Today, one of my students asked me what the difference between Catholic and Roman Catholic is -- or, at any rate, why the distinction. I said they mean the same thing, pointed out that "catholic" means "universal" so the word's use historically is different from it's modern meanings, etc.

He is from Peru and said he'd never heard the phrase "Roman Catholic" before coming to this country.

I said we USans have a weird relationship with the Catholics. (I speak as one coming from a Catholic background.)

But he got me thinking: Why the phrase "Roman Catholic" instead of just Catholic?

--NewZer0

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TrekkerScout
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Eastern Orthodox and Episcopal Churches also call themselves Catholic. They do not follow the Pope in Rome (except maybe in passing), and are therefore not Roman Catholic.
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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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Eastern Rite Catholics are Catholics under the Pope, but not Roman Rite.

Catholic is an ambiguous term.

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Damian
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IIRC, it's correct name is The Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church. Obviously, this is to distinguish it from all the other types of catholic churches.

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Jason Threadslayer
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quote:
Originally posted by Damian:
IIRC, it's correct name is The Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church. Obviously, this is to distinguish it from all the other types of catholic churches.

Actually, it's just "The Church". The Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church refers to Rome.

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Andrew of Ware, England
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In the creed used by the Church of England (a Protestant church) we use the phrase,

I believe in the Holy Catholic church.

Catholic, as has been stated above, means 'universal'. It can also be uses in other contexts, e.g.

He has a very catholic taste in music.

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Andrew, Ware, England

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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For a while there were Avignonian Catholics...

And there's an old tradition that's fallen out of favor: the installation of "Anti-Popes."

Silas

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Buzzbomb
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I was raised Roman Catholic....here in the States Catholic and Roman Catholic are pretty much synonymous but I guess it isn't so. I could be muddling this a bit but I think most of the Christians in Lebanon are referred to as Maronite Catholics. Although I've never seen one supposedly there is a denomination called the Old Catholic Church. It clings to some older Vatican teachings, and allows priests to marry.
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AdmiralDinty
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
For a while there were Avignonian Catholics...

And there's an old tradition that's fallen out of favor: the installation of "Anti-Popes."

Silas

Yes, the installation of anti-Popes by Roman political interests has certainly fallen out of favor. However, there are something like 17 claimants to the throne of St. Peter.

Two of the more famous American examples:

"Pope" Pius XIII

"Pope" Michael

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Crono
Deck the Malls


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According to the article on Wikipedia, the most common name that the church uses for itself is "Catholic Church," although it does refer to itself in other ways as well. I'm not sure if there is an "official" name of the church. As has been mentioned by others, the term "catholic" is more of a descriptive terms that any church can use for itself, but over time, it has been adopted as the proper name for that particular church.

I have heard from some Catholics that the term "Roman Catholic" is considered slightly offensive. However, I have heard from others that it is not offensive, and some Catholics even refer to themselves by that description.

There are other churches that call themselves "Catholic" but are distinct from the church that is usually considered the Catholic Church (that is, the church led by the pope at the Vatican). The term "Roman Catholic" may be used to distinguish this church from the other separate churches (such as the Old Catholic Church).

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Bored and Dangerous
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quote:
Originally posted by Andrew of Ware, England:
In the creed used by the Church of England (a Protestant church) we use the phrase,

I believe in the Holy Catholic church.

Catholic, as has been stated above, means 'universal'. It can also be uses in other contexts, e.g.

He has a very catholic taste in music.

Nitpick here: In your first phrase, the words "Holy Catholic" are not supposed to be capitalized. The correct phrase is actually "one holy catholic and apostolic Church," as used in the Nicene Creed (if that's the one you use).

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

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hoitoider
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quote:
Originally posted by Crono:
I have heard from some Catholics that the term "Roman Catholic" is considered slightly offensive. However, I have heard from others that it is not offensive, and some Catholics even refer to themselves by that description.

AFAIK every Diocese is named Roman Catholic:

Roman Catholic Diocese of Albany
Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix
Roman Catholic Diocese of Portland
Roman Catholic Diocese of Rochester, NY
Roman Catholic Diocese of Dallas

etc.

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Andrew of Ware, England
A-Ware in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by Bored and Dangerous, with tinsel:
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew of Ware, England:
In the creed used by the Church of England (a Protestant church) we use the phrase,

I believe in the Holy Catholic church.

Catholic, as has been stated above, means 'universal'. It can also be uses in other contexts, e.g.

He has a very catholic taste in music.

Nitpick here: In your first phrase, the words "Holy Catholic" are not supposed to be capitalized. The correct phrase is actually "one holy catholic and apostolic Church," as used in the Nicene Creed (if that's the one you use).

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Sorry to nitpick a nitpick, but I have just looked up the Nicene Creed in my 1662 Book of Common Prayer. It capitalises the 'Catholic' but not the 'holy'.

The C of E uses the 'Alternative Services Book' now, but as my church uses service cards (if we use any liturgy at all) I don't know how the phrase 'holy Catholic' church is spelt.

To move the thread on, in Ware there is a chapel (now converted into flats) of the now defunt 'Catholic Apostoilic Church'. This was an extreme Protestant sect which believed that sex - even within marriage - was wrong.

The church thrived for twenty years. Then withered. I wonder why?

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by hoitoider:
AFAIK every Diocese is named Roman Catholic:

Roman Rite dioceses are called Roman Catholic Dioceses. Non-Roman Rite ones are called by their rite (note that eparchy is the Eastern name for diocese):

The Old Catholic Church was formed by Catholics who rejected the (I) Vatican Council. I believe it has split up into several smaller churches since then.

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mgbdriver
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quote:
Originally posted by Andrew of Ware, England:
quote:
Originally posted by Bored and Dangerous, with tinsel:
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew of Ware, England:
In the creed used by the Church of England (a Protestant church) we use the phrase,

I believe in the Holy Catholic church.

Catholic, as has been stated above, means 'universal'. It can also be uses in other contexts, e.g.

He has a very catholic taste in music.

Nitpick here: In your first phrase, the words "Holy Catholic" are not supposed to be capitalized. The correct phrase is actually "one holy catholic and apostolic Church," as used in the Nicene Creed (if that's the one you use).

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Sorry to nitpick a nitpick, but I have just looked up the Nicene Creed in my 1662 Book of Common Prayer. It capitalises the 'Catholic' but not the 'holy'.

The C of E uses the 'Alternative Services Book' now, but as my church uses service cards (if we use any liturgy at all) I don't know how the phrase 'holy Catholic' church is spelt.

To move the thread on, in Ware there is a chapel (now converted into flats) of the now defunt 'Catholic Apostoilic Church'. This was an extreme Protestant sect which believed that sex - even within marriage - was wrong.

The church thrived for twenty years. Then withered. I wonder why?

I hate to nitpick a nitpick of a nitpick, but most non-Catholic Christians I know do not recite the Nicene Creed, but the Apostles' Creed, which goes like this:
quote:
. . . I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen
some versions have the word "church" as capitalized.

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by AdmiralDinty:
quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
For a while there were Avignonian Catholics...

And there's an old tradition that's fallen out of favor: the installation of "Anti-Popes."

Silas

Yes, the installation of anti-Popes by Roman political interests has certainly fallen out of favor. However, there are something like 17 claimants to the throne of St. Peter.

Two of the more famous American examples:

"Pope" Pius XIII

"Pope" Michael

Fascinating! I had no idea!

Are these guys just nutjobs? Is this anything like those who claim that the U.S. Sixteenth Amendment is invalid, because of a difference in punctuation or something? Or are they basing their claim on something that might at least make an ounce of sense? (Such as, for example, American Indian lawsuits to regain vast areas in the U.S. because of Polk-era treaties. Such lawsuits are unwinnable for *practical* reasons -- we simply can't afford to give all of Wyoming and Colorado back! -- but at least they do have a foundation in abstract law and justice.)

In other words, if you explained to me why these guys think they are Pope, would I laugh in derision, or see a kernel of truth?

Do any of the modern claimants trace their lineage through the Avignonian Papacy, or is that line, at least, extinct?

Again, fascinating stuff! Sort of like taking the most abstract bits of Law *and* Theology!

Silas

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Crono
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quote:
Originally posted by hoitoider:
quote:
Originally posted by Crono:
I have heard from some Catholics that the term "Roman Catholic" is considered slightly offensive. However, I have heard from others that it is not offensive, and some Catholics even refer to themselves by that description.

AFAIK every Diocese is named Roman Catholic:

Roman Catholic Diocese of Albany
Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix
Roman Catholic Diocese of Portland
Roman Catholic Diocese of Rochester, NY
Roman Catholic Diocese of Dallas

etc.

I'm aware of that now. This being the case, I'm not sure why some individuals objected to the term "Roman Catholic." Maybe they were only offended by its use when referring to the church as a whole.

quote:
Originally posted by mgbdriver:
I hate to nitpick a nitpick of a nitpick, but most non-Catholic Christians I know do not recite the Nicene Creed, but the Apostles' Creed...

I'm pretty sure that Othodox Christians put as much emphasis on the Nicene Creed as Catholics, although they have a slightly different version of it due to the filioque clause. Even if you exclude Catholics and Othodox Christians, the Nicene Creed seems to be emphasised in quite a few denominations, although it may not be recited as regularly. In fact, Christian Forums, which is generally recognized as the largest Christian message board on the Internet, uses the Nicene Creed as its definition of a Christian, in spite of the web site's owner and webmaster being an evangelical fundamentalist.

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
Are these guys just nutjobs? Is this anything like those who claim that the U.S. Sixteenth Amendment is invalid, because of a difference in punctuation or something? Or are they basing their claim on something that might at least make an ounce of sense?

There are a variety of reasons. Nearly all claim that the last legitimate Pope was Pius XII.

The main claim is that Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, sometimes John Paul II, and rarely John Paul I were heretics and being heretics (according to canon law), they were automatically excommunicated. Being excommunicated, they were not eligible to be elected Pope. Since the cardinals held the same views, they cannot elect a legitimate Pope. With cardinals, the election of the Pope falls to the Roman clergy (again, according to canon law). With the Roman clergy also being heretics, the election falls to all orthodox clergy. So the sedevacantist clergy held conclaves to elect a Pope.

The minority Siri-vacantists/Sirists/Siri-thesisists, of whom Gary Giuffre (pronounced like Jeffery), who attends Mass at the same chapel as Hutton Gibson, is the foremost expert -- see The Pope in Red, claim that Giuseppe Cardinal Siri was legitimately elected three (or four) times -- 1958 (the conclave with the mixed up smoke), 1963, and 1978 -- as Pope Gregory XVII.

quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
Do any of the modern claimants trace their lineage through the Avignonian Papacy, or is that line, at least, extinct?

Extinct since 1418.

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I saw Mommy kismet Santa Claus
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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On the creed nitpick sidebar,

at Methodist and PCUSA churches, both of which consider themselves reformed protestant denominations, the Apostle's Creed is recited at Sunday services and memorized during communicant classes.

I have attended several denominations of evangelical churches and have never heard any creed recited at any of them.

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Senior
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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To continue the discussion on anti-popes, my favorite form of this abberation are the sedavacantists--"empty chair" in Latin. These people say that Benedict is not the true Pope, and some have gone so far as to proclaim themselves Pope. Two others that Jason didn't mention are:

A different Pius XIII

Pope Gregory XVII

These anti-popes are generally arch-conservatives of the Archbishop Lefebvre variety (to his credit, Lefebvre never declared himself pope). They're Catholic fundamentalists who reject the decisions and rulings of the Vatican II Council and declare them to be heresies.

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NewZer0
Happy Holly Days


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Wow, thanks for all this info! This has turned into a very interesting thread.

--NewZer0

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beaver_slayer
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Well, pretty much, sometimes Roman Catholic is used to underline the difference between Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic (Uniate). The latter also recognize the Pope and at least one of them is elected cardinal. However, Greek Catholic follow Orthodox service ritual.

Although you might ask "Uniate who?", at least in the context of Transcarpathia their numbers are nearly equal, so it is a habit to use either Roman or Greek to make sure who you're talking about.

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beaver_slayer
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by TrekkerScout:
Eastern Orthodox and Episcopal Churches also call themselves Catholic. They do not follow the Pope in Rome (except maybe in passing), and are therefore not Roman Catholic.

Eastern Orthodox church never calls itself "Catholic". Since I belong to that congregation I know what I'm saying.
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TrekkerScout
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by beaver_slayer:
quote:
Originally posted by TrekkerScout:
Eastern Orthodox and Episcopal Churches also call themselves Catholic. They do not follow the Pope in Rome (except maybe in passing), and are therefore not Roman Catholic.

Eastern Orthodox church never calls itself "Catholic". Since I belong to that congregation I know what I'm saying.
There is more than one Eastern Orthodox Church (Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Macedonian Orthodox, etc.). My MIL belongs to the Russian Orthodox Church and she considers herself to be Catholic. Just because your congregation claims not to be Catholic doesn't mean others cannot make that claim.
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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Ebenezer Senior:
These anti-popes are generally arch-conservatives of the Archbishop Lefebvre variety (to his credit, Lefebvre never declared himself pope).

Lefebvrists (and Feeneyites) aren't sedevacantists.

quote:
Originally posted by Ebenezer Senior:
They're Catholic fundamentalists who reject the decisions and rulings of the Vatican II Council and declare them to be heresies.

And answer "no" to "Is the Pope Catholic?".

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beaver_slayer
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by TrekkerScout:
quote:
Originally posted by beaver_slayer:
quote:
Originally posted by TrekkerScout:
Eastern Orthodox and Episcopal Churches also call themselves Catholic. They do not follow the Pope in Rome (except maybe in passing), and are therefore not Roman Catholic.

Eastern Orthodox church never calls itself "Catholic". Since I belong to that congregation I know what I'm saying.
There is more than one Eastern Orthodox Church (Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Macedonian Orthodox, etc.). My MIL belongs to the Russian Orthodox Church and she considers herself to be Catholic. Just because your congregation claims not to be Catholic doesn't mean others cannot make that claim.
Sorry, this is either LOL or bad translation. I'm Russian Orthodox myself.
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