quote:Originally posted by Jenn: Prefacing something with "No offense" doesn't actually make it less offensive. It usually only indicates that you know it's insulting/offensive/rude but are going to say it anyhow.
The way I intend it, and the way I hope people would take it, is "I in no way intend for this to be offensive, but there is a chance you might take it that way. If that is the case, I really wish you wouldn't, but I wanted to make an extreme example of why X really is Y to me."
Replace X with Jamie Lee and Y with manly.
If you truly don't wish to offend Cervus, why use her name to make your point about Jamie Lee? Why not compare Jamie Lee to someone else? Why not use the Andre the Giant comparison and leave Cervus out of it?
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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Because Cervus stated "Jamie Lee has mannish features? She's far more feminine-looking than I ever will be."
This led me to the following thought: If someone was far more mannish-looking than Jamie Lee Curtis, then surely they'd look like Andre the Giant."
I apologize if I offended anyone. I will say it would be nice if everyone would stop thinking the worst of everyone, and/or taking offense at something at the drop of a hat. *sigh*
-------------------- It can't rain all the time. Posts: 1102 | From: Iowa | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Nion: I apologize if I offended anyone. I will say it would be nice if everyone would stop thinking the worst of everyone, and/or taking offense at something at the drop of a hat. *sigh*
No offense, but that's the most self-serving, insincere apology I've ever seen. You've managed to insult one my favorite snopesters, one of my favorite actresses and my all-time favorite wrestler in one post. You then lecture us on how we should behave and show mock surprise when many of us are offended. And to top it off, you use the miserable, self-pitying *sigh* at the end to show your world-weariness of all the rest of the thin-skinned world.
-------------------- Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on. Winston Churchill Posts: 821 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2001
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I was vaguely offended that you apparently think that Jamie Lee is so mannish as to resemble a bog monster. I always found her quite lovely, and to be honest I think she and my mother look a bit alike. (Also, based on what I've seen of Jamie Lee in interviews and casual stuff, she reminds me quite a bit of my mother in personality, too.)
Not that me being vaguely offended over that was really your fault. It was more that I took it as a completely illogical oblique slight against my mother.
I do think it's rather rude to compare her to a bog monster, though.
Aimee "I'm fairly certain she doesn't have tentacles, for one..." Evilpixie
posted
I'm not offended, but I think it's rather stupid to compare Jamie Lee Curtis to a "bog monster" or to presume I must look like Andre the Giant when you admit you've never seen a picture of me. I think Nion's insulted Jamie Lee more than he's insulted me.
Anyway:
I don't think Jamie Lee Curtis has mannish features and I've always been surprised when people use this claim to back their assertion of her sex change. I consider her features more feminine than my own. She has a small head, narrow nose, and tapered chin. I have a large head, large nose, and square chin. Perhaps it's the short hair that makes people think she has masculine features, but I was thinking more along the lines of her facial structure. It appears quite feminine to me, but there's lots of XX females who have "masculine" facial features, and vice verse. I suppose that's in the eye of the beholder, though. It still has no bearing on someone's biological genetalia.
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Angel With Wax Wings: My mom and I were watching TV last night and Jamie Lee Cutris came on and I asked her if she had ever heard the rumor that Jamie was a hermaphrodite at birth. My mom maintains that it's absolutely true. She says that a friend of hers is friends with Jamie's doctor or something and he performed the sex change/sex surgery on Jamie Lee when she was younger. I was just wondering how questionable this information is, because as a doctor wouldn't he not be able to tell anyone about Jamie Lee? Anyway my mom is convinced that it's true.
~Monica
I once had a blind date with a nurse from New Brunswick, NJ. She claimed that the doctor she worked with knew the doctor who performed the sex change operation on Miss Curtis. This was back in 1995(when I first heard this UL). For a fleeting moment I believed it because I always thought Jamie Lee Curtis had manish features. The rational part of me knew it was an UL.
-------------------- The views expressed in the above Post does not necessarily reflect those of snopes,The Infopoop Corporation,the Internet or most of society for that matter. Posts: 2474 | From: Scranton, PA | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Nion: Because Cervus stated "Jamie Lee has mannish features? She's far more feminine-looking than I ever will be."
This led me to the following thought: If someone was far more mannish-looking than Jamie Lee Curtis, then surely they'd look like Andre the Giant."
But you didn't just think it, or even blurt it out in conversation: you typed it and posted it to a message board. You are in no way compelled to express every thought you have; if you choose to do so, accept the consequences.
quote:I apologize if I offended anyone. I will say it would be nice if everyone would stop thinking the worst of everyone, and/or taking offense at something at the drop of a hat. *sigh*
It would also be nice if people would accept the consequences of their thoughtless posting instead of acting as if they're being persecuted. *sigh*
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Nion: If someone was far more mannish-looking than Jamie Lee Curtis, then surely they'd look like Andre the Giant."
This is one of the most absurd statement I've seen on snopes in quite a while. If you really believe that, you're a flipping moron with no sense of beauty.
Jamie Lee Curtis is a babe.
Pogue
-------------------- Let's drink to the causes in your life: Your family, your friends, the union, your wife. Posts: 11325 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Nov 2000
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Ummmmm......this whole argument offends me? Also, I hope the use of the "question mark" does not offend anyone.
Posts: 36 | From: Michigan | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Nion: If someone was far more mannish-looking than Jamie Lee Curtis, then surely they'd look like Andre the Giant."
This is one of the most absurd statement I've seen on snopes in quite a while. If you really believe that, you're a flipping moron with no sense of beauty.
Jamie Lee Curtis is a babe.
Pogue
I think you are a flipping moron with no sense of beauty for thinking Jamie Lee Curtis is a babe! Geesh
-------------------- The views expressed in the above Post does not necessarily reflect those of snopes,The Infopoop Corporation,the Internet or most of society for that matter. Posts: 2474 | From: Scranton, PA | Registered: Apr 2003
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Can't a woman be a babe and still have features that may have some mannish components? Mannishness doesn't preclude beauty.
I have a female friend who's 6'2" and, I feel, strikingly beautiful. Yet when Halloween comes, sometimes people think she is a man in drag walking the streets of Waikiki. She is offended but, in a way, I can see where they get that in her facial features.
Drag queens in full make-up can look goregeous but when you look carefully, you can see the mannishness too.
Posts: 326 | From: Hawaii | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Nion: If someone was far more mannish-looking than Jamie Lee Curtis, then surely they'd look like Andre the Giant."
This is one of the most absurd statement I've seen on snopes in quite a while. If you really believe that, you're a flipping moron with no sense of beauty.
Jamie Lee Curtis is a babe.
Pogue
So, you're allowed to think she's a babe, but if someone doesn't think that, then they're a moron?
I think she's a bit mannish, too. And I have to admit that when I read Cervus' comment, I did think "oh, don't put yourself down". I can see what (sorry, i don't have a name here because half the page hasn't loaded, but) the person-who-said-about Andre the Giant meant. If you think someone is mannish and someone else says the mannish person is more feminine than them, it does give the impression that they think of themselves as unattractive. Even if they don't. Confusing much?
Do you have any wine? All of this would go a lot smoother in an altered state of reality. Posts: 779 | From: Southampton, England | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Stoneage Dinosaur: There was an interesting interview with Tony Curtis in The Times a few months ago, in which he talks about Jamie Lee (see about 3/4 of the way down). For what it's worth (he could be talking about anything), he mentions "a secret in Jamie that I can’t disclose” which leads to a meeting between the interviewer and a lawyer regarding "off the record" comments.
What bothers me about that article is, if it's really a secret, why mention it at all? Okay, maybe Tony Curtis blabbed it, but why did the reporter have to go through the process of "I can't disclose" - then saying he does anyway - mentioning the meeting with the lawyer - then summing it up with "it's really no one's business"? It sounds like they're just creating more hype about it.
If you want to see Jamie Lee in her skivvies, (someone mentioned something like that eta: jokingly, I realize) she did a photo shoot for More magazine four years ago. It's a great article about liking yourself as you are. She wanted to show people what she really looks like, before all the make-up and airbrushing. Anyway, she looks very feminine to me, and I don't see any "manly" features - she has slim shoulders, arms, and wrists.
-------------------- I love dairy! Does that mean I can't be a vegan? Posts: 1569 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Dec 2003
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It took real guts for Jamie Lee Curtis to have that article published of her in her sports bra, without any airbrushing. I kinda love her for having the tenacity to do that and to show herself so honestly. Have any other female sex-symbol types done similar things to sort of break down the illusion?
-------------------- "That would be really dangerous, you know. Indiscriminately extricating someone from the petrified corpse of a supernatural creature." - My Husband Posts: 4308 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Jun 2003
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Anyone who thinks that gender-reassignment surgery is detected by mannish features should do an image search on Caroline Cossey (Warning: Search may be NSFW and NFBSK). She was feminine looking enough to be a Bond Girl and appear in Playboy.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by GenYus: She was feminine looking enough to be a Bond Girl and appear in Playboy.
She was feminine looking enough to be an unnamed character in a bikini appearing briefly in a Bond film along with ten other actresses. I'm not sure that's enough to earn her the title of Bond Girl.
-------------------- "You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!" Posts: 12086 | From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000
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This webpage has a gallery of women who have gone through a male to female transition at some point in their lives, I find that the majority of them do not look "mannish" at all. They mostly all look like beautiful women to me.
-------------------- "That would be really dangerous, you know. Indiscriminately extricating someone from the petrified corpse of a supernatural creature." - My Husband Posts: 4308 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by GenYus: Anyone who thinks that gender-reassignment surgery is detected by mannish features should do an image search on Caroline Cossey (Warning: Search may be NSFW and NFBSK). She was feminine looking enough to be a Bond Girl and appear in Playboy.
Do you have any wine? All of this would go a lot smoother in an altered state of reality. Posts: 779 | From: Southampton, England | Registered: Nov 2005
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HIJACK! This messsage is for Brandi and all my fellow snopesters. Seems my friend was upset about the reply I made to Pogue Mahone concerning Jamie Lee Curtis and decided to send me a nasty PM. This is fine because I love to be flamed but all I ask is this: If you feel the need to flame please do so on the Message Boards. If you feel it must be private then at least allow me to respond before blocking me from sending you a PM back. It is only fair. Flaming is acceptable(to me) but cowardice is not.
Thank you and you may now proceed with the current thread.
-------------------- The views expressed in the above Post does not necessarily reflect those of snopes,The Infopoop Corporation,the Internet or most of society for that matter. Posts: 2474 | From: Scranton, PA | Registered: Apr 2003
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Regardless of the accuracy or not of "mannishness" as a marker for gender re-assignment (of which I have no knowledge and therefore no opinion)
I see nothing mannish about Jamie. She has a long thin face. Well, *I* have a long thin face and I don't happen to think I look mannish.
Kinda horsey maybe, but not mannish.
Also I think Jamie is "hot" too, and I think she's a lovely human being, which is kinda rare these days and it seems especially so among celebrities.
She's certainly more ladylike (in the good way) than Britney, Paris and so forth could ever dream of being.
-------------------- "Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit
(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad) Posts: 2397 | From: Texarkana, TX | Registered: Mar 2006
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I don't understand what the big deal is. What does it matter if she used to be a man or not? Does that really have anything to do with who she is as a person or an actor? Personally, I think she is a great actor and it has nothing to do with her gender.
-------------------- Get used to his bad habits and decide whether you can put up with them...the rest of your life. 'Cause if you don't, then one day, you find yourself in the shed, sharpening the axe and idly wondering how thick the human skull really is. -ChickyBee Posts: 64 | From: Bristol, Rhode Island/Columbia, Maryland | Registered: Dec 2006
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I think Jamie Lee Curtis is a very cool person, she has a beautiful body, but I never thought she had a "classically" beautiful face. I never thought of her features as being "mannish," I thought of her as having a lantern jaw. But it all really works for her. She is attractive in her own way that most of the male posters here have identified as "babetude."
I doubt that she had ambiguous genitalia as a child. Even if this had been so and she had been "changed" to female, she would still not have "mannish" features. I could see an adult going from male to female retaining a masculine appearance post surgery, but I don't think the same would be likely for an infant. The only real visible physical difference in infants and young children before puberty is genitalia.
P&LL, Syl
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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How did we get onto the idea that Jamie Lee was originally a man? (Not you Sylvanz). The OP asked if she was a hermaphrodite at birth - "an individual in which reproductive organs of both sexes are present," according to Dictionary.com.
If a hermaphrodite/intersex person were to have genital surgery, would it really be sexual "reassignment"? Wouldn't it be sexual assignment? (A quick Google search shows that term apparently is used.)
-------------------- I love dairy! Does that mean I can't be a vegan? Posts: 1569 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Dec 2003
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Whoa, I seem to have set off a bit of a flamefest! I for one never meant to imply that the "mannishness" I perceive in JLC's face precludes beauty. To me, her prominent jaw, sharp nose, and smallish eyes don't seem traditionally "feminine." Add to that her athletic (albeit well-endowed) frame and short haircut--and a heaping helping of silly hermaphrodite rumors--and I find myself able to look at JLC, imagine her done up as a man, and muse fleetingly, "Hmmm, maybe it's true."
Obviously, although scientists have identified certain types of facial features that are widely considered masculine and feminine (see, for instance this article), an individual's opinion on where a particular woman's face falls on the "mannish" scale is subjective. Personally, I think "mannishness" can look different on different people. I look nothing like JLC--I have large, round eyes and a button nose--but I consider myself a bit masculine looking because of my large head and square face. If I see a photo of myself with too much makeup on, I always think, "Oh my, I look like a man in drag." And no, that doesn't mean I'm ugly. I'm no JLC, but I don't think I'm unattractive.
For those who have asked, "What does it matter whether she was born a hermaphrodite?" the answer is, of course, "It doesn't." People like to speculate about celebrities because it's fun. A little mean, yes...but fun. I don't hear anyone saying that the rumor, if true, would mean JLC is a bad person. Sounds like a lot of people here share my opinion that she's awesome. I think she's funny and talented and down-to-earth, and she gets 5,000 Bonus Cool Points for being married to Christopher Guest.
Oh, and Tony Curtis? Is freaking nuts. His bringing up the Jamie Lee secret, only to dismiss his own comment with a statement that it's no one's business, is just one more confirmation for me that he is a loony old man.
Posts: 207 | From: Alabama | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by jessboo: So, you're allowed to think she's a babe, but if someone doesn't think that, then they're a moron?
That, of course, is nothing close to what I said or posted. How did you manage to read that into it? The point I made was that comparing Jamie Lee Curtis to Andre the Giant is a conspicuously absurd statement.
Pogue
-------------------- Let's drink to the causes in your life: Your family, your friends, the union, your wife. Posts: 11325 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Nov 2000
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Actually, Pogue, I was the one compared to Andre the Giant. Jamie Lee was compared to a bog monster. I will agree that both are conspicuously absurd statements, though.
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Cervus: Actually, Pogue, I was the one compared to Andre the Giant. Jamie Lee was compared to a bog monster. I will agree that both are conspicuously absurd statements, though.
I stand corrected on the first point. I agree wholeheartedly on your second.
Pogue
-------------------- Let's drink to the causes in your life: Your family, your friends, the union, your wife. Posts: 11325 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Nion: If someone was far more mannish-looking than Jamie Lee Curtis, then surely they'd look like Andre the Giant." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is one of the most absurd statement I've seen on snopes in quite a while. If you really believe that, you're a flipping moron with no sense of beauty.
Jamie Lee Curtis is a babe.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by jessboo: So, you're allowed to think she's a babe, but if someone doesn't think that, then they're a moron? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That, of course, is nothing close to what I said or posted. How did you manage to read that into it? The point I made was that comparing Jamie Lee Curtis to Andre the Giant is a conspicuously absurd statement.
What did you mean, then?. The original quote wasn't comparing JLC to Andre the Giant, it said if someone was far more mannish than her then they'd look like Andre the giant. Which could be perfectly true- there are a lot of mannish looking women out there, far more so than JLC is. The person who said JLC was mannish just has a different perception of beauty to you. It doesn't make them a moron. It doesn't mean they have 'no sense of beauty'.
Do you have any wine? All of this would go a lot smoother in an altered state of reality. Posts: 779 | From: Southampton, England | Registered: Nov 2005
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Have any other female sex-symbol types done similar things to sort of break down the illusion?
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