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Author Topic: The Dark Side of Peter Pan?
candycane from strangers
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Chloe, that article is very interesting.

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Cactus Wren
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Chapter 5, "The Island Come True", from paragraph 4:
quote:
The boys on the island vary, of course, in numbers, according as they get killed and so on; and when they seem to be growing up, which is against the rules, Peter thins them out; but at this time there were six of them, counting the twins as two.


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Nion
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OOH! I have a question.

I remember once reading something that likened Peter to the figure of Death, hording the "lost" boys to Neverland, a bizare version of heaven I suppose.

Thoughts?

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Joseph Z
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(deep voice) Peter...I am your father (winces)

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Joseph Z

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Tarquin Farquart
The First USA Noel


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I can't remember who wrote it but I remember reading about a book featuring a grown-up Wendy along with Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz and Alice from ...in Wonderland.

Does anyone know anything about this?

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Brad from Georgia
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I don't suppose it was "Wendy and Dorothy and Ted and Alice?"


Brad "but a man can dream, though. Oh, my, yes, a man can dream" from Georgia

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Ramblin' Dave, quietly making noise
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When I read the title of this thread, the first thing I thought of was a pornographic story that made the Internet rounds about ten years ago, in which Tinker Bell deflowers Peter. Oops. [lol]

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Brad from Georgia
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramblin' Dave, ramblin' again:
When I read the title of this thread, the first thing I thought of was a pornographic story that made the Internet rounds about ten years ago, in which Tinker Bell deflowers Peter. Oops. [lol]

Someone must have put her up to it.

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TrishDaDish
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
The author of the article does not justify the phrase that Captain Hook is a, 'a walking, talking phallic symbol. Can anyone explain this. Captain Hook is deliciously evil - but a phallic symbol?
He is a big weiner in the story. Although, after reading this all of this, I'm reconsidering Peter for the job. Wouldn't a name like "Peter" seem a better phallic symbol, anyway?

"To die will be an awfully big adventure." First off, that reminds me of an Alan Rickman movie i didn't care for, and forgot about the whole peter pan element. Second, didn't Captain Hook (Dustin Hoffman) say that in the movie Hook at some point?

Trish "I think I'm having an apostrophe" DaDish

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Mistletoey Chloe
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A phallic symbol but one strangely deprived of the phallus, which has been bitten off by what is obviously a vagina dentata!

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Kamino Neko
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarquin Farquart:
I can't remember who wrote it but I remember reading about a book featuring a grown-up Wendy along with Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz and Alice from ...in Wonderland.

Sounds like Lost Girls by Allan Moore and Melinda Gebbie.

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Tarquin Farquart
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamino Neko:
quote:
Originally posted by Tarquin Farquart:
I can't remember who wrote it but I remember reading about a book featuring a grown-up Wendy along with Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz and Alice from ...in Wonderland.

Sounds like Lost Girls by Allan Moore and Melinda Gebbie.
That's the one! Thank you for that. [Smile]

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Spindely Fingers
I Saw Three Shipments


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The pedophillia stuff came up a lot when "Finding Neverland" was released. I'll have to dig around for the source (Smithsonian Magazine, maybe?) but I read an article that said most scholars say the whole J.M. Barrie/pedophile thing has little to do with facts and is more about a recent trend to find the "darker side" of childhood icons (some justifide, some not.) I think one of the more prominent of Barrie's biographers was "horrified" by the allegations. There is some indication Barrie had been abused himself as a child.

Spindely "Although Cap'n Hook was all about Peter 'walkin' the plank'" Fingers

PS Am I crazy or was "Peter Pan" origanlly a play, and not a book? I was under the impression it was a stage play first for some reason.

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Artemis
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by TrishDaDish:

"To die will be an awfully big adventure." First off, that reminds me of an Alan Rickman movie i didn't care for, and forgot about the whole peter pan element. Second, didn't Captain Hook (Dustin Hoffman) say that in the movie Hook at some point?


I think Peter says it in "Hook." In the book, Peter says it when he's stranded in the middle of the sea (but is rescued by the Never-bird who offers him its nest). At the end of "Hook," Peter says "To live will be an awfully big adventure."

I'd forgotten the part about him thinning out the lost boys, but now I remember. They don't expand on it much, but I suppose he does kill them off. Considering, as has been mentioned, how careless the attitude towards death is, it's not too surprising.

One other thing sort of dark thing that always stood out for me is where Barrie mentions that for Peter, unlike with other children, the notion that the world isn't a fair place never sinks in. So every time he experiences something dishonorable, it hurts just as much as the first time--like when he goes to help up Hook on the cliff, who slashes him.

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Oceanic Aura
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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
No, I'm thinking of Peter Pan, honestly. There's an article that touches on both the pedophiliac element and the other darknesses in the book here : http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/12/29/1040511254669.html

That was an interesting article, thanks for posting it. To add another dimension - I have read a few articles claiming that Barrie was a victim of psychosocial dwarfism. The attempt to live up to his brother's shadow essentially retarding his physical and sexual growth. Based on that, I'd always interpreted Peter Pan as not so much pedophilic but an attempt at vicarious childhood.

I'll try to dig up some cites, but my obsession with Victorian era children's lit was years ago, so please be patient!

Aura

Edit: Okay, apparently the more preferred term is psychogenic dwarfism. I wasn't able to find too much other then in passing. Such as in the wikipedia article on psychogenic dwarfism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogenic_dwarfism.

Although this college students report was a rather fascninating read: http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro01/web3/Munoz.html

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Andrew of Ware, England
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quote:
Originally posted by Spindely Fingers:
PS Am I crazy or was "Peter Pan" origanlly a play, and not a book? I was under the impression it was a stage play first for some reason.

No you're not crazy. I mentioned the fact above, along with the story about having to have 'fairy dust' in order to fly. Children, once they'd seen the play, were throwing themselves off beds hoping to fly by just thinking of 'wonderful' things. As far as I know no children threw themselves out of bedrooms.

Barrie was a genius, but a weird one. I have read a bit about him, but this topic is teaching me a lot more about his weirdness.

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Sabrina_Fairchild
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quote:
Originally posted by Oceanic Aura:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chloe:
[qb] No, I'm thinking of Peter Pan, honestly. There's an article that touches on both the pedophiliac element and the other darknesses in the book here : http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/12/29/1040511254669.html

OMG! Did anyone see that ad they had on there with the banana? Oddly, I found it quite appropriate for this topic. [fish]

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Floater
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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
... a vagina dentata!

AKA a beaver.

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opensesame44
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After seeing "Finding Neverland", I wondered about the pedophile thing and did a little research on the internet. One article I found said that Barrie managed to get himself named legal guardian of the Davies boys when both their parents died. He changed the will, with his own hands. He conveniently changed the name Jenny (Mrs. Davies sister) to Jimmy, meaning himself, when he was recopying Mrs. Davies will. Why it would be up to him to recopy the will, is a mystery. I wish I could give you a link to the article. I found it while doing a search for Peter Llewellyn Davies.
My own opinion is that the guy was probably a perv. I'll never be able to watch "Peter Pan" again.

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Spikey
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quote:
Originally posted by TrishDaDish:
quote:
The author of the article does not justify the phrase that Captain Hook is a, 'a walking, talking phallic symbol. Can anyone explain this. Captain Hook is deliciously evil - but a phallic symbol?
He is a big weiner in the story. Although, after reading this all of this, I'm reconsidering Peter for the job. Wouldn't a name like "Peter" seem a better phallic symbol, anyway?

"To die will be an awfully big adventure." First off, that reminds me of an Alan Rickman movie i didn't care for, and forgot about the whole peter pan element. Second, didn't Captain Hook (Dustin Hoffman) say that in the movie Hook at some point?

Peter says, "To die would be a great adventure" and Hook says, "Death is the only adventure you have left."

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TrishDaDish
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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Rewatching it, Captain Hook also says that line (about an hour into the movie). He had just threatened to shoot himself in the head, Smee stops him, and Captain Hook starts muttering to himself, "I want to die. There's no adventure here. Death is the only great adventure. It's all over. I'm tired. I want to go beddy-bye..."

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Ganzfeld
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quote:
Originally posted by opensesame44:
After seeing "Finding Neverland", I wondered about the pedophile thing and did a little research on the internet. One article I found said that Barrie managed to get himself named legal guardian of the Davies boys when both their parents died. He changed the will, with his own hands. He conveniently changed the name Jenny (Mrs. Davies sister) to Jimmy, meaning himself, when he was recopying Mrs. Davies will. Why it would be up to him to recopy the will, is a mystery. I wish I could give you a link to the article. I found it while doing a search for Peter Llewellyn Davies.
My own opinion is that the guy was probably a perv. I'll never be able to watch "Peter Pan" again.

Can I have a side order of citations to go with those accusations?
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Algae
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quote:
Originally posted by Ganzfeld:
quote:
Originally posted by opensesame44:
After seeing "Finding Neverland", I wondered about the pedophile thing and did a little research on the internet. One article I found said that Barrie managed to get himself named legal guardian of the Davies boys when both their parents died. He changed the will, with his own hands. He conveniently changed the name Jenny (Mrs. Davies sister) to Jimmy, meaning himself, when he was recopying Mrs. Davies will. Why it would be up to him to recopy the will, is a mystery. I wish I could give you a link to the article. I found it while doing a search for Peter Llewellyn Davies.
My own opinion is that the guy was probably a perv. I'll never be able to watch "Peter Pan" again.

Can I have a side order of citations to go with those accusations?
Ganz, this isn't a cite (actually, it's about as far from a cite as possible), but the same story was told on Paul Harvey's The Rest of the Story.

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Ganzfeld
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Suggestions of improprieties have already been made and they were refuted by the people involved, including the children. What new evidence is there that he ever behaved inappropriately? None. It's complete nonsense.
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sleeping_dragon
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I agree with Ganzfeld and with the scholars in Spindely Fingers post. We live in times where people seem to like to find the bad in everything. And if it isn't there, they'll twist things until it IS. Pretty sad, when we have enough actual bad things happening in the world. Also, I think that people forget that the meaning of words evolve over time and Peter Llewellyn Davies, saying "that terrible masterpiece" doesn't necessarily mean horrible, awful, etc.

The line about dying being an awfully big adventure seems more like a child mustering up bravado than an encouragement to commit suicide. I've read about the Llewellyn Davies children and the suspected suicides as well. . .if they did indeed commit suicide, isn't it possible that the loss of both of their parents at their young ages would be a significantly contributing factor? Or perhaps there was a problem with mental illness that wasn't diagnosed? Mere speculation, but hey, that seems to be what it's all about.

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sleeping_dragon
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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After a bit of searching, I've found this site, through Wikipedia:

http://jmbarrie.co.uk/index.html

Heaps of info to read on there. I haven't gotten through it all myself yet, as I'm at work right now. But what I have read is interesting.

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TheLazenby
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I thought this topic was going to be different...

I was expecting something like "At 23:42, it TOTALLY looks like Hook is mouthing the words to 'Us And Them.'"

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Alex Buchet
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quote:
Originally posted by TrishDaDish:
quote:
The author of the article does not justify the phrase that Captain Hook is a, 'a walking, talking phallic symbol. Can anyone explain this. Captain Hook is deliciously evil - but a phallic symbol?
He is a big weiner in the story. Although, after reading this all of this, I'm reconsidering Peter for the job. Wouldn't a name like "Peter" seem a better phallic symbol, anyway?

"To die will be an awfully big adventure." First off, that reminds me of an Alan Rickman movie i didn't care for, and forgot about the whole peter pan element. Second, didn't Captain Hook (Dustin Hoffman) say that in the movie Hook at some point?

Trish "I think I'm having an apostrophe" DaDish

In her book on children's literature, 'Not before the Grown-Ups', Alison Lurie says that the New York producer of Peter Pan went down on the Titanic. He is alleged to have said 'To die will be an awfully big adventure'.

Read the book for a fascinating discussion of Barrie and Peter Pan.

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die daagliks phosdex
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This might or might not be relevant, but for some reason or another, Boston newspapers advertised a 1970 reissue of Disney's version thereof as having an R (Restricted) rating (as in requiring adult accompaiment for children under 17 years of age), rather than the G (General Audiences) such.

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mouse goddess
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarquin Farquart:
And in the play, Captain Hook and Mr Darling are played by the same person.

That puts an interesting spin on it I think.

Even in the Disney version, this is hinted at, it's the same voice actor, and there are some physical similarities.

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candycane from strangers
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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In the 2000 (I believe) version Captain Hook and Mr. Darling are both played by Jason Isaacs. I know this because that's the only reason I watched that movie. *drool* Lucius Malfoy [Big Grin]

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Ophiuchus
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Well, I guess things like this prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the violence in media aimed at children is NOT getting worse...
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TrishDaDish
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quote:
Originally posted by TheLazenby:
I thought this topic was going to be different...

I was expecting something like "At 23:42, it TOTALLY looks like Hook is mouthing the words to 'Us And Them.'"

You do realise, that since I'm a part time syncher, I'm going to have to try that now. Only, which version of it should I watch?

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TheLazenby
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If you have any luck, tell me about it :-)

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Spindely Fingers
I Saw Three Shipments


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After some digging around I realized all my magazines are in storage (I'm in the process of moving to Atlanta) but I found the article here.

I found this interesting:

quote:
Both the Disney film, released in 1953, and the Broadway musical that opened in 1954 omit a line central to Barrie’s vision. Peter, faced with the prospect of drowning in Mermaid’s Lagoon, declares: “To die will be an awfully big adventure.” Sandy Duncan, who starred in a 1979 revival of the musical, said that the death-as-adventure line was briefly reinstated during a pre-Broadway tour. “We were coming into New York with the show,” Duncan recalled, “and our producers came to see it and they said, No. The line was too dark for family audiences. That line, though, is the heart of the play.”
And this, although briefer than I recalled, is also relavent:

quote:
I have found no evidence to support the speculation that his attraction to the boys was unhealthy or inappropriate. Nicholas, the youngest of the five, wrote in his 70s that “I’m glad I lived with that odd little man rather than living in poverty, or, for that matter, with virtually any other person I have ever known."


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Armistice Day has become Veterans' Day. Armistice Day was sacred. Veterans' Day is not.
So I will throw Veterans' Day over my shoulder. ...
What else is sacred? Oh, Romeo and Juliet, for instance.
And all music is. -Kurt Vonnegut

Posts: 55 | From: Salisbury, NC/Bridgewater, VA | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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