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snopes
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quote:
There is a story that may be an urban legend that German immigrants arriving at Ellis Island were asked their names, and might respond "Ich vergessen," meaning "I forgot," if they couldn't understand English. The officials would then mark down that the name was "Ferguson."

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snopes
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"I forgot" seems a curious way for a person to respond to a question posed in a language he doesn't understand, rather than simply saying "No" or "I don't understand."

- snopes

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Rhea
We Three Blings


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"ich vergessen" is wrong either way. A native would say "Ich habe vergessen" (still sounds somewhat strange).
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Troberg
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It's also reasonable to expect the official to understand German.

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/Troberg

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Bonnie
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
"ich vergessen" is wrong either way. A native would say "Ich habe vergessen" (still sounds somewhat strange).
Yeah, but Mr. Ballard has sort of bungled the joke. The anecdote usually relies on a response in Yiddish ("schoyn vergessen," which I guess means something on the order of "already forgotten") being misrecorded as the very Irish "Sean Ferguson."

By the way, I think this is the better apocryphal Ellis Island anecdote,

quote:
There was this Norwegian come [over] in the old country, and this fellow in front of him in the line happened to have the same name. His name was John Johnson, and the guy ahead of him happened to be John Johnson. They were going through Ellis Island. Immigration.

They asked the first guy his name, and he said, "John Johnson." So they wrote it down.

So when the second John Johnson, who was next in line, comes up there, they say, "What's your name?"

He said, "Sam' t'ang" [same thing],

And they wrote it down "Sam Tang."

They claim that's a true story.

[The Chinese sound of a Norwegian’s pronunciation of "same thing" rendered as "sam tang" or "sam ting" resulted in another version in which a Chinaman gives his true name, Sam Ting, to an immigration official just after an Albert Olson had gone through. The bungling official sets down Ting's name as Albert Olson.]

[From James P. Leary's So Ole Says to Lena: Folk Humor of the Upper Midwest. (Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 2001).]

Bonnie "Miss Nomer" Taylor

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Se non è vero, è ben trovato.

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Esprise Me
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And here I thought the standard response by Ellis Island officials to a name they didn't understand was to dub the new immigrants "Smith."

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"If God wrote it, the grammar must be infallible. Perhaps it is we who are mistaken." -MapleLeaf

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magpie
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I think the proper conjegation would be "Ich vergesse". But as Snopes said, a more common response would be "Ich versteh' nicht" (I don't understand) or "Wie bitte?" (what's that again?).
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Rhea
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quote:
Originally posted by magpie:
I think the proper conjegation would be "Ich vergesse".

That would be present tense.

quote:
But as Snopes said, a more common response would be "Ich versteh' nicht" (I don't understand) or "Wie bitte?" (what's that again?).

Judging by the Germans I know, more likely "Hä?"
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Nick Theodorakis
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quote:
Originally posted by Esprise Me:
And here I thought the standard response by Ellis Island officials to a name they didn't understand was to dub the new immigrants "Smith."

They shortened my grandfather's last name to "Theros" when he immigrated, but my Dad lengthened it back to the original when he became of age.

Nick

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magpie
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Hä or something similar means "huh?" in Icelandic but I've never heard of Germans using it. Wie bitte is much more polite anyway, and would be used when dealing with customs officials.
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Rob D / Blackwolf, the yule dodo
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"I forgot." would be more "Das habe ich vergessen", or "Ich habe das vergessen."
But as mentioned before a german immigrant, would be more apt to say "Wie bitte?", "Was ist los?" (What's going on?) or "Keine Ahnung" (No idea).

--------------------
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aka Darkfist Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-

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snopes
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quote:
It's also reasonable to expect the official to understand German.
You're kidding, right? Immigration officials were there to protect Americans, not to help immigrants.

- snopes

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
You're kidding, right? Immigration officials were there to protect Americans, not to help immigrants.
Either way, being able to talk to them would make the job a lot easier.

--------------------
/Troberg

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RealityChuck/Boston Charlie
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by snopes:
quote:
It's also reasonable to expect the official to understand German.
You're kidding, right? Immigration officials were there to protect Americans, not to help immigrants.

- snopes

But many immigration officials were immigrants or sons of immigrants themselves. There was usually someone around who could speak other languages (especially German, who immigrated relatively early in US history), either because they were born in Germany, or because they heard their parents speaking it.

Sure, they were there to protect, but if you didn't fall into a category where immigration was denied, they would do what they could to help the immigrants find their way.

The idea that immigration officials arbitrarily changed names of immigrants is vastly embellished. It certainly did happen, but not all that often. It was just as likely that the immigrants themselves chose to give a different name to get a new start.

Getting back to the original point, take a look at the immigration records at Ellis Island or Castle Garden; the names tend to match their country of origin. Castle Garden (the immigration station before Ellis Island) lists over 2400 Fergusons, but only 16 from Germany (11 of those were in three distinct family groups -- same ship, same date). Most likely, most of these are people who had ancestors in Scotland but who moved to Germany at some point.

Ellis Island lists 2 Fergusons from Germany out of over 5400. One of those two was a US resident who was returning from a trip to the Bahamas. So the only Ferguson from Germany to pass through Ellis Island was Karl Ferguson, who came to the US in 1922 -- rather late in the game. His port of departure is listed as New York. I'm not sure what that means, though it could indicate he went on a round-trip cruise from New York and back.

So, most likely this never happened at Ellis Island. And if it happened at Castle Garden, it couldn't have happened more than once or twice.

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Thera
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I once knew a guy who claims his last name is actually the city his ancestor came from, because the guy originally misunderstood the question and thought he was being asked where he was from. He even knew what his last name was supposed to be. His ancestry was German.
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Tootsie Plunkette
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quote:
The idea that immigration officials arbitrarily changed names of immigrants is vastly embellished. It certainly did happen, but not all that often.
From what I understand, the Ellis Island/Castle Garden/other port of entry officials took the names off of the written ship passenger manifests (which were compiled at the port of departure), rather than asking each immigrant his or her name.

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mnotr2
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I think it would be very normal for a tired German immigrant who had just finished a trans-atlantic voyage, likely in steerage, and then gone through several hours (or days under some conditions) of processing to respond "I forget" when asked his/her name.

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Infinite goodness is creating a being you know, in advance, is going to complain.
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geminilee
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quote:
Originally posted by mnotr2:
I think it would be very normal for a tired German immigrant who had just finished a trans-atlantic voyage, likely in steerage, and then gone through several hours (or days under some conditions) of processing to respond "I forget" when asked his/her name.

Seriously? Have you ever forgotten your own name? I have been seriously ill and still capable of remembering at least that. I also managed to remember it when I was in shock after a car accident, when I could not remember how to open the car doors. I don't think it is very likely that anything short of amnesia is likely to make you forget your own name, but YMMV.

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Tootsie Plunkette
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If you're really interested, these articles are worth a read:

The Myth of Ellis Island Name Changes

They Changed Our Name at Ellis Island

American Names: Declaring Independence

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--Tootsie

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mnotr2
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quote:
Originally posted by geminilee:
Seriously? Have you ever forgotten your own name? I have been seriously ill and still capable of remembering at least that. I also managed to remember it when I was in shock after a car accident, when I could not remember how to open the car doors. I don't think it is very likely that anything short of amnesia is likely to make you forget your own name, but YMMV.

No, I don't mean that they forgot their names, but that they were so tired of answering questions, etc that instead of answering they simply said "I forget/forgot" with just a trace of sarcasm. That's what I meant

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Don Enrico
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quote:
Originally posted by mnotr2:
quote:
Originally posted by geminilee:
Seriously? Have you ever forgotten your own name? I have been seriously ill and still capable of remembering at least that. I also managed to remember it when I was in shock after a car accident, when I could not remember how to open the car doors. I don't think it is very likely that anything short of amnesia is likely to make you forget your own name, but YMMV.

No, I don't mean that they forgot their names, but that they were so tired of answering questions, etc that instead of answering they simply said "I forget/forgot" with just a trace of sarcasm. That's what I meant
But, if they were answering in German, that would still be "Den habe ich vergessen" or at least "Hab' ich vergessen", and not simply "Ich vergessen".

Don "what was it - ahhh - yes:" Enrico

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My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear

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alsachti
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It reminds me a short story by a german writer :

A german guy is sent to the Netherlands for business (the story takes place in the XIX century and it's the first time the guy is travelling out of his country).
In a harbour, he saw a big ship coming from india with luxurious merchandise. He asked to a sailor who was this ship's owner. The sailor answered : "niet verstand" (meaning that he doesn't understand). The guy thougth : "Mr Nietverstand has a beautiful ship !"

Then, he saw in town a big and beautiful house, asked who is the owner, same answer : "niet verstand !". The guy thougth : "Mr Nietverstand is a lucky man : he has a beautiful ship, a beautiful house... he is certainly very rich !"

Ironnically, the german guy witnessed a funeral procession... and you understand what happened : this was Mr Nietverstand's funeral !

The guy, deeply moved, followed the funeral, and, hearing the priest's speech, cried a lot (though he didn't understand a single word of it). Back in germany, he was happy to be poor but alive.

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magpie
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Hmm, the joke would work better if it wasn't Dutch to German. Most Germans and Dutch can understand each other, at least a little bit, and "niet verstand" sounds enough like "nicht verstand" that I'm sure the German would figure it out. Try it with an American instead ("haha stupid americans only speak english") in France ("haha french people hate americans") and the joke works better.
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Page Three
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Heh. I know the story as "Kannitverstan", also of a German visiting the Netherlands. But guess what? There is an English equivalent! It's "Mounseer Nongtongpaw: or, The Discoveries of John Bull in a trip to Paris". It's sometimes and most probably wrongly attributed to Mary Shelley.
In this case, "Nongtongpaw" is supposed to be a misunderstood "(je vous) n'entends pas"

A quote from the very long poem:

quote:
Next day to view a vast balloon
The folks came far and near,
To see it start JOHN hurried soon,
for ev'ry sight was dear.

He ask'd a woman on the ground
Who paid for the balloon,
But "Je vous n'entends pas" he found
Was still the only tune.

Says he, "I now don't wonder, Dame,
"To find 'tis his balloon,
"For sure this NONGTONGPAW can claim
"All that's beneath the moon."

I haven't found a complete version, and it's very long -- but I've got it somewhere in a book comparing British and German humour (the reaction to seeing the funeral procession, which features in both version, is a bit different; an "everything-must-turn-to-dust" sadness in the German one, a "glad I didn't waste too much time envying this guy" type line in the English one).

If anyone is really, really interested in the whole thing, PM me and I'll find it.

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bruce in france
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Actually, this item isn't too far away from my family's story... My great-grandparents arrived in New York during WWI, having escaped from north-eastern Europe, speaking only yiddish. We were always told that the immigration officials changed the names, however, now I wonder if it was deliberate on the part of my ancestors... Anyway, we ended up with a family name that was probably not the original name, and happens to be the same as a town in western Germany.

-bruce "continuing the family's wanderlust, reverse emigrated back to Europe" in france

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bruce in france
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quote:
Originally posted by Page Three:
Heh. I know the story as "Kannitverstan", also of a German visiting the Netherlands. But guess what? There is an English equivalent! It's "Mounseer Nongtongpaw: or, The Discoveries of John Bull in a trip to Paris". It's sometimes and most probably wrongly attributed to Mary Shelley.
In this case, "Nongtongpaw" is supposed to be a misunderstood "(je vous) n'entends pas"


Cute, except that it would be "je ne vous entend pas", and a French person would really probably just reply "comment?" or "qu'est-ce que vous dites?"

-b in f

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Ardeco
The World According to Carp


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quote:
Originally posted by snopes:
quote:
There is a story that may be an urban legend that German immigrants arriving at Ellis Island were asked their names, and might respond "Ich vergessen," meaning "I forgot," if they couldn't understand English. The officials would then mark down that the name was "Ferguson."

In case anyone's wondering, although you probably are not, this little tidbit is from The Book of Daniel by E. L. Doctorow. There was a little anecdote in there where an immigrant came to Ellis Island, forgot his new "American" name and said "ich vergessen", and the official wrote down "Ike Ferguson". But there are obviously many more examples...
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MaxKaladin
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When my father's family arrived from Germany, their name got changed. It included the letter "ß", which sounds like a sharp "s". I didn't know this until I started trying to do genealogy and started looking into the known ancestors from Germany. We found all the records over there had the name spelled with a "ß" instead of an "s". I don't know if it got changed by immigration or simply because my great-great-grandfather got sick of trying to explain it to non-german speakers.

If it did get changed by immigration officials, it wasn't American officials at Ellis Island though. He emigrated to the Republic of Texas through Indianola, so it would have been an Texan official there.

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Floater
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quote:
Originally posted by MaxKaladin:
It included the letter "ß", which sounds like a sharp "s".

Actally, there is no such thing as a "sharp s" in German phonetics. The letter "ß", esszet, is simply an alternate way of writing "ss" (not appplicable in all situations, I understand). Its origin, as the name implies, is a combination of "s" and "z".

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Joostik
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Floater:
quote:
Originally posted by MaxKaladin:
It included the letter "ß", which sounds like a sharp "s".

Actally, there is no such thing as a "sharp s" in German phonetics.
Not anymore, but there used to be what was called a "long" and a "round" s in the pre-1941 German alphabet (and not just the German alphabet, they just kept it longer than most nations).

The "ß" is actually a ligature of a long and a round s or the very similar long s and z.

Link in German, with examples

In German, you may replace it with "ss". In fact, in Switzerland they don't use the letter at all (when writing German, not just for local dialect).


ETA: Actually there is such a thing as a "sharp s" in German phonetics. When placed at the beginning of a word, it is usually pronounced as a sharp z-like sound.

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Die Capacitrix
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When first learning German, I was told that part of the reason that Switzerland got rid of the "ß" is because of typewriters. For those who don't read German, this has the same story:
quote:
One reason for the abolition of the ß may have been the increasing use of typewriters. Since Swiss typewriters were designed to be usable in the German speaking part of Switzerland as well as in French speaking part, they contained accented French letters (ç, à, é, è) as well as German umlauts (ü, ä, ö) and consequently had no key to spare for ß.
My maiden name is not the same as the the original German. It was not changed until 3 generations after my ancestor migrated from Germany to the U.S. No one knows why the spelling change was made - no one moved, and the spelling change was some generations before my multi-great uncle killed his parents. It may have been so that the junior could be differentiated from the senior.

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"Strength is the capacity to break a chocolate bar into four pieces with your bare hands - and then eat just one of the pieces." Judith Viorst

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magpie
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Just to clarify, the "ß" and "ss" make what we in English would have as a typical S sound like in "hiss". A single S in German, like in the words "Sieben" and "Diese" (whether it's at the beginning or the middle of the word) makes the sound we would know in English as a Z, as in Zoo. To further complicate things, the German Z makes the "ts" sound, like in Pizza.
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MaxKaladin
The First USA Noel


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The information about the letter is what the genealogist we contacted in Germany said. It's been 15 years, so she may have included something about it falling out of use.

I can't remember if we used it when I took German in college, but I know we didn't use it much if we did. Not like umlauts, anyway.

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