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Author Topic: Disney Shuts Down School Production of 'Aladdin'
snopes
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Corporate giant Disney has shut down a Warrnambool school production of Aladdin, devastating the young cast members.

http://the.standard.net.au/articles/2006/09/05/1157222107847.html

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BeachLife
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Okay, what am I missing here:

quote:
The group has permission from Disney to hold two invitation-only non-public performances for families and friends.

Mrs Baldam said it was disappointing because Rowan wanted to invite friends from school, and family from other places would have attended the musical.

So they can only have family or friends there, but Mrs Baldam wants to invite friends and family???

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GenYus
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Maybe there is an issue with the number of performances. For example, maybe all the tickets for the two are spoken for and she didn't get to invite everyone she wanted to.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Purple Iguana
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BOOOO!! Come on, Disney... it's a children's production. They're not going to pull audiences from an adult production. They're not going to tour. Let 'em do their play, for crying out loud!

*grumble grumble*

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GenYus
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They gave the professional company exclusive rights. I don't know about Australian plays, but in the US, an exclusive patent license agreement often includes a clause that the licenser must protect the exclusivity. If Disney signed an agreement to protect the professional company's exclusive rights, then I would believe that that company would be the one to give permission, not Disney.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Sandman
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There's nothing unusual about this, and Disney isn't being mean and nasty by doing this.

When a company buys the rights to a production, they get all the performance rights. Likely it wasn't even Disney that was demanding the production be halted, it was probably the company that had purchased the rights.

And to be honest, if the school had actually gotten prior legal permission from Disney to perform the show, then they would be performing it. A previous arangement to perform would not have been invalidated by a newly signed production agreement.

If you think Disney is being mean here, you should see what happens if you try to put on a production of a play controlled by Dramatist's Play Service without their permission...those people have really scary lawyers.

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Midgard_Dragon
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I think Disney is being mean here, sorry. Or whoever is halting the production is being mean, at least. But it's no secret that I think the way intellectual property and copyright laws currently work are, to put it bluntly, stupid.

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Purple Iguana
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I understand what Sandman and GenYus are saying, but it's a kids' play. 11-12 year olds, for crying out loud. No matter how talented they may be, I can pretty much guess that not a one of them is Broadway (or Australian equivalent) material, so I just don't see what restricting their performances is supposed to accomplish. Who wants to see the play? Friends and family. I sincerely doubt that folks are going to road trip across the territories to see a bunch of 5th/6th graders singing "A Whole New World." Touring companies are not going to lose audiences or revenue... so why get their knickers in a twist?

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
I think Disney is being mean here, sorry. Or whoever is halting the production is being mean, at least. But it's no secret that I think the way intellectual property and copyright laws currently work are, to put it bluntly, stupid.

This is not new legal territory here, though, so "currently works" is irrelevant.

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GenYus
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Iguana:
Touring companies are not going to lose audiences or revenue... so why get their knickers in a twist?

It is a question of where to draw the line. Do you permit just grade-school kids? High-schoolers? No charge community plays? Non-profit or for charity plays? It is probably easier to prohit all plays rather that set a limit that will then be challanged by the next level up.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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abigsmurf
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Or alternatively they could've just done a version of aladdin which doesn't involve disney songs? Like the thousands of pantomimes which seem to manage this ok?
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Midgard_Dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
I think Disney is being mean here, sorry. Or whoever is halting the production is being mean, at least. But it's no secret that I think the way intellectual property and copyright laws currently work are, to put it bluntly, stupid.

This is not new legal territory here, though, so "currently works" is irrelevant.
No, currently works as in it needs to change, not as in it has been different in the past. Has always worked might suit you better, but still, I never said it worked different in the past. Are you so aggresive about copyright laws that you have to put words into my mouth?

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magpie
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I'm really confused by the title of the thread. Where in the article did it say this was a school production? The venue was the Warrnambool Entertainment Centre http://www.entertainmentcentre.com.au/ and not some elementary school gym. Just because there are children involved doesn't mean they get to skip the same copyright rules as adults.
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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
I think Disney is being mean here, sorry. Or whoever is halting the production is being mean, at least. But it's no secret that I think the way intellectual property and copyright laws currently work are, to put it bluntly, stupid.

This is not new legal territory here, though, so "currently works" is irrelevant.
No, currently works as in it needs to change, not as in it has been different in the past. Has always worked might suit you better, but still, I never said it worked different in the past. Are you so aggresive about copyright laws that you have to put words into my mouth?
No, I was using your words. You said, and I quote, " But it's no secret that I think the way intellectual property and copyright laws currently work are, to put it bluntly, stupid." [emphasis mine].

The point is that the way they work now isn't different from the way they've worked in the past, so, the "currently work" part is irrelevant. I'm not sure how I can make that any clearer.

I would be curious, though, what sort of copyright law you would write if it were up to you.

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Midgard_Dragon
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The "currently work" was meant to imply that they should be changed, not that they worked differently in the past, and in truth it does not outright imply that unless you make it imply that.

Defintion - at the presenttime; now

It does not imply that they ever worked differently in the past, just that at the present time, that is how they work. Now I would say it implies that I think they will work different in the future, and I seriously hope they do.

As for what sort of copyright law I would write, I don't know, honestly. I know I would give the artist a lot more control and a lot less control the companies that distribute the work. I also know that a good copyright law does not allow a huge corporation to go after a small school production of a play that isn't losing them any revenue. But, then, I don't have to know what sort of law would work best to know that the current law isn't working fairly.

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magpie
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Again, where in the article does it say this was a school production?
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Midgard_Dragon
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snopes summary:

quote:
Corporate giant Disney has shut down a Warrnambool school production of Aladdin, devastating the young cast members.
And from the article:

quote:
Kidz Act was to perform the musical, following two months of rehearsals, at the Warrnambool Entertainment Centre in late September. Disney, however, informed the School of Performing Arts group a professional company had bought
exclusive Australian rights to the production.



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tuff_gong
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My grade school held a carnival years ago, and some PTA mom drew a bunch a Peanuts character posters to advertise it. For some reason she called CBS (who held the copyright at the time) to ask permission. The answer was "I wish you hadn't called us. Now we have to say no."

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Midgard_Dragon
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That seems to be the answer a lot of times. It's unfortunate when companies would just leave people alone, but people *try* to do the right thing by asking, and have to be shut down.

For example, a remake of the game Ultima V using modern technology and the Dungeon Siege engine was a great success, and the maker of the original games (who no longer works for the company who owns the rights now) has said he really enjoyed it. They didn't ask for permission and were able to finish their project.

Alternately, a remake of Ultima IV using modern technology and building their own engine *did* ask permission and were promptly shut down.

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GenYus
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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
As for what sort of copyright law I would write, I don't know, honestly. I know I would give the artist a lot more control and a lot less control the companies that distribute the work.

The current law gives the artist complete and total control over what he creates. What happens now is that artists who work for studios sign over those rights to the studio. Would your new laws prohibit those contracts? If so, how does an artist who wants to sell hir creation go about doing so? And why would a company pay for a character if they can't control what happens with that character?

quote:
I also know that a good copyright law does not allow a huge corporation to go after a small school production of a play that isn't losing them any revenue.

Would this be revenue based? So the copyright holder would have to show that they lost revenue to the other play?

quote:
But, then, I don't have to know what sort of law would work best to know that the current law isn't working fairly.

True, you don't have to do anything. But if you don't have some idea of what the new laws are going to be and how they are going to work, what exactly is the next step? And how do you know that the as-yet-undefined laws will be any better?

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Hero_Mike
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AnglRdr, this is twice now in recent memory that you are defending copyright laws as they are, regardless of the circumstances or how ridiculous or draconian they may be.

You do so with such fervour, that I am tempted to believe that you are not "at arms length" from copyright laws and they way they are now. Few people argue so passionately about something where they have no vested interest. Now you may very well be just a person who has great respect for any law, and encourages all people to uphold it, your particular favoritism (and what I would call "unconditional support") for copyright law is suspicious.

Maybe you should calm down - the answer to all of these people breaking the law, is to change the way the law works.

Or otherwise explain your stake in copyright laws "as they are today". There are many snopesters who are published authors and derive commercial benefit from their protected works. I don't see them showing the same passion here as you do.

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WingedBear
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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
As for what sort of copyright law I would write, I don't know, honestly. I know I would give the artist a lot more control and a lot less control the companies that distribute the work. I also know that a good copyright law does not allow a huge corporation to go after a small school production of a play that isn't losing them any revenue. But, then, I don't have to know what sort of law would work best to know that the current law isn't working fairly.

But in this case, Disney is both the original artist and the distribution company. Even if you say the kids and the performing school are also artists, why should their rights be more important than the original artist?

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GenYus
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I have no vested interest in copyright laws and I have argued with much fervour for the current rules. Usually I end up in the music downloading ones against those that think it is someone their right to steal free music.

quote:
Maybe you should calm down - the answer to all of these people breaking the law, is to change the way the law works.

What exactly do you think should change? If you think it is something along the lines of "you can't enforce a copyright unless you can prove lost revenue", then I most heartily disagree.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Midgard_Dragon
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quote:
True, you don't have to do anything. But if you don't have some idea of what the new laws are going to be and how they are going to work, what exactly is the next step?
Finding like minded people and working together to create something that's mututally beneficial to everyone involved, artists, distributors, and most importantly consumers.

quote:
And how do you know that the as-yet-undefined laws will be any better?
I know that just about anything would be better than the current situation, but as I'm talking about changing the laws for the better, then I know that the laws I would want would be better. Obviously I wouldn't want worse laws. :/

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Midgard_Dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by WingedBear:
quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
As for what sort of copyright law I would write, I don't know, honestly. I know I would give the artist a lot more control and a lot less control the companies that distribute the work. I also know that a good copyright law does not allow a huge corporation to go after a small school production of a play that isn't losing them any revenue. But, then, I don't have to know what sort of law would work best to know that the current law isn't working fairly.

But in this case, Disney is both the original artist and the distribution company. Even if you say the kids and the performing school are also artists, why should their rights be more important than the original artist?
The main point in this particular case is that the play is harmless and does not challenge Disney's copyright, lose them revenue, or frankly, hurt them in any foreseeable way.

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GenYus
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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
Finding like minded people and working together to create something that's mututally beneficial to everyone involved, artists, distributors, and most importantly consumers.

How? It is very nice to say this, but how will you actually make it come about?

quote:
I know that just about anything would be better than the current situation, but as I'm talking about changing the laws for the better, then I know that the laws I would want would be better. Obviously I wouldn't want worse laws. :/

So you just wait until someone else comes up with laws that you think are better?

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Midgard_Dragon
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As an American citizen, and not being a politician, my duty is to vote for those who make the laws, not to make them. If everyone could make their own laws, we wouldn't really need the lawmakers, now would we?

I make it come about by exercising my right to vote and voting in those who I think are most conducive to my stance on the issues.

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Noemi
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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
You do so with such fervour, that I am tempted to believe that you are not "at arms length" from copyright laws and they way they are now. Few people argue so passionately about something where they have no vested interest.

I'm mildly confused. I don't see any fervor at all in what AnglRdr is saying here. Also why aren't you saying similar things about other people, like Sandman or GenYus, that are saying the same thing AnglRdr is? It seems very odd and almost like you are singling AnglRdr out which is even more confusing to me.

Noemi

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GenYus
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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
The main point in this particular case is that the play is harmless and does not challenge Disney's copyright, lose them revenue, or frankly, hurt them in any foreseeable way.

So where do we draw the line? Do we draw the line at anything that doesn't charge admission? Anything put on by kids? (This could be a problem with Little Orphan Annie) Anything that doesn't make or keep a profit? Anything that doesn't harm the copyright holder? If the last one, who has the burden of proof? Does Disney have to prove they will be harmed? Does the school have to prove they won't harm Disney? How do you prove either of these? Is it lost revenue? How about loss of image or brand awarness (this is very valuable, but nebulous)?

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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WingedBear
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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
quote:
Originally posted by WingedBear:
quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
As for what sort of copyright law I would write, I don't know, honestly. I know I would give the artist a lot more control and a lot less control the companies that distribute the work. I also know that a good copyright law does not allow a huge corporation to go after a small school production of a play that isn't losing them any revenue. But, then, I don't have to know what sort of law would work best to know that the current law isn't working fairly.

But in this case, Disney is both the original artist and the distribution company. Even if you say the kids and the performing school are also artists, why should their rights be more important than the original artist?
The main point in this particular case is that the play is harmless and does not challenge Disney's copyright, lose them revenue, or frankly, hurt them in any foreseeable way.
Except they made a contract with another agency giving them sole production rights. If they allow this kids production, wouldn't that put them in breach of contract? I imagine that could be quite messy and costly.

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GenYus
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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
As an American citizen, and not being a politician, my duty is to vote for those who make the laws, not to make them. If everyone could make their own laws, we wouldn't really need the lawmakers, now would we?

Call your Senators and Representative and give them suggestions on how you want the laws to change. Form a PAC and collect signatures for how the law will change. Lawmakers aren't going to suddenly change a law unless they know that people (or a PAC) want the law to change and what they want the law to change to.

quote:
I make it come about by exercising my right to vote and voting in those who I think are most conducive to my stance on the issues.

Has this ever been an election issue? Has any legislative candidate had this part of hir platform? How will you know which candidate will vote for your new version?

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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No one is going to mistake a school play of Aladdin for Disney's Aladdin, so there is no loss of image brand or awareness.

We draw the line at not pursuing stupid causes like this, and yes, at violations that actually harm the copyright holder. Profit? Yes, that's harming the copyright holder. Yes, Disney has to prove that it has been harmed, as it is the accuser.

The line should be drawn using common sense.

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GenYus
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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
No one is going to mistake a school play of Aladdin for Disney's Aladdin, so there is no loss of image brand or awareness.

What if someone sings a song so badly that an audience member has a new intense dislike for that song and refuses to by the Aladin DVD?

quote:
We draw the line at not pursuing stupid causes like this, and yes, at violations that actually harm the copyright holder. Profit? Yes, that's harming the copyright holder. Yes, Disney has to prove that it has been harmed, as it is the accuser.

How can Disney prove that? Unless they get a statement from someone that says they attented a show, would have bought something from Disney, and now will not, they have no way to prove loss of revenue.

quote:
The line should be drawn using common sense.

Whose common sense?

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by GenYus:
quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
As an American citizen, and not being a politician, my duty is to vote for those who make the laws, not to make them. If everyone could make their own laws, we wouldn't really need the lawmakers, now would we?

Call your Senators and Representative and give them suggestions on how you want the laws to change. Form a PAC and collect signatures for how the law will change. Lawmakers aren't going to suddenly change a law unless they know that people (or a PAC) want the law to change and what they want the law to change to.

quote:
I make it come about by exercising my right to vote and voting in those who I think are most conducive to my stance on the issues.

Has this ever been an election issue? Has any legislative candidate had this part of hir platform? How will you know which candidate will vote for your new version?

It doesn't have to be a part of their public platform to find out where they stand on the issue. There are multiple methods to ask a candidate where they stand on an issue.

I was unaware that by disliking a law, it was my reponsibility to MAKE a new law. That's just...really...best word for it is "stupid".

And, in the end, it doesn't have to be the candidate that will vote for "my new version" it has to be a candidate closest suited to how I view the situation. No candidate is going to agree with me or you 100% on everything. You're being silly if you think that's possible.

You do know that I'm not the only person in the world that feels this way, nor am I the only person who doesn't plan on writing up a whole new law for it, don't you?

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by GenYus:
quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
No one is going to mistake a school play of Aladdin for Disney's Aladdin, so there is no loss of image brand or awareness.

What if someone sings a song so badly that an audience member has a new intense dislike for that song and refuses to by the Aladin DVD?
The single most ridiculous thing I've heard all night. So if I sing "A Whole New World" badly, to a girlfriend, and she now has an extreme dislike of the song and refuses to buy the Aladdin DVD, then Disney has the right to sue me? hat if I sing it at a karaoke bar and now everyone there feels that way? Gimme a break. I think on that note I'm out. I can't argue with such horribly flawed logic.

quote:
Who's common sense?
The common sense.

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