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Author Topic: Disney fingerprint scan raises privacy concerns
tenorcs
I Saw Three Shipments


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Story Here

How do you guys feel about this?

We walk a delicate line as we balance privacy and efficiency.

I visit the Disney parks several times a year, and just getting in the door has become an ordeal. First there's a line for the bag check, which can take a good half hour or more. Besides, the bag checks are pretty much useless anyway. I've brought a knife into the parks before. It was part of a leatherman style multi-tool, but it was still a sharp knife that could cause damage. (For the record, I had the tool because it is small and has a set of screwdrivers that come in very handy when I need to adjust my tripod for photography/videography.)

On the other hand, I hate getting stuck behind a family of NFBSKtards who can't use the older style biometric readers. And checking photo ID's one by one would be way too slow.

I really liked the old passes where they just took your picture for the annual and multi-day passes. Can't we just go back to that?

And how much money is Disney really losing to ticket fraud, anyway? If a ticket is worth 5 admissions, for example, how much does it REALLY matter if the same person uses the ticket on all days?

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Mickey is a Hanukkah Bush
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HOLY NFBSK! I was told it's still biometrics when I did it! I'm NEVER using one of those again. I'll have a piece of paper, a pen, and my I.D. ready from now on so that they can have an easier time with one person that doesn't want THEIR prints scanned!

And for the record, they have lost a lot in the past. That's why they now require finger scanning/printing (grrr).

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Sandman
Deck the Malls


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The biometric scan is not that big of a deal. It addresses a problem Disney had with multiple people using the same pass to get in the park in the same day. The scanner doesn't store a name or other personal information with the print scan. It just matches the print scan that day with the code on the ticket. I can't imagine why the government would want a bunch of incomplete fingerprint scans with no attatched personal identification information.

My wife and I were just there and one day I accidentally used her ticket and she used mine. It was the third day we were there and the ticket reader couldn't have cared less that we used the wrong ones. Of course, when we tried to go in another park, using the correct tickets later in the day, it buzzed us. The ticket guy knew exactly what had happened and just had us switch tickets. I guess it happens a lot. The next day we used the tickets with our names on it, no problems.

And we were there at a really crowded time and the bag check never took longer than 5 minutes or so, but I suppose we could have just been lucky there, I can see how it could take longer. And yeah, some of the checkers are a joke, but some are quite thourough.

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applepwnz
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"Central Florida ACLU President George Crossley said."

Hmm, that's a tough one, I love Central Florida, but I don't believe a word of what anyone affiliated with the ACLU says. Why are people so nervous that the machine reads fingerprints? In society today we jump at the chance to have our children fingerprinted with the police for security reasons, so why are we upset that the Disney Corperation might have a record somewhere of when we went to Disney World? I swear, these days people get in the biggest huff about anything and constantly have to claim that their god given liberties are being taken away just because Disney wants to make sure that people aren't trying to do something tricky with their tickets, it's just incredible to me

apple"if you don't have anything to hide, why be afraid?"pwnz

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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quote:
Originally posted by applepwnz:
Hmm, that's a tough one, I love Central Florida, but I don't believe a word of what anyone affiliated with the ACLU says.


Why not?

quote:
Why are people so nervous that the machine reads fingerprints?

The more such information is out there, the less secure your identity is.

quote:
In society today we jump at the chance to have our children fingerprinted with the police for security reasons,

Which is utterly worthless.

quote:
so why are we upset that the Disney Corperation might have a record somewhere of when we went to Disney World?

We are? But, should there really be a record of my visiting a Disney property? What compelling interest would anybody have to know that I went there?

quote:
I swear, these days people get in the biggest huff about anything and constantly have to claim that their god given liberties are being taken away just because Disney wants to make sure that people aren't trying to do something tricky with their tickets, it's just incredible to me

I swear, so many people are so cavalier about giving away other people's rights that it's just incredible to me...

quote:
apple"if you don't have anything to hide, why be afraid?"pwnz
Because it's nobody's business....

Thank you for reaffirming my suspicion that our social studies curricula in this country is failing at teaching the citizenry anything about much at all.

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1958Fury
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Google started out harmless too, until the Government needed their records...

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snopes
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quote:
if you don't have anything to hide, why be afraid
"If you're not a Jew, why be afraid?"
    -- Rudolf Applepwnz, Berlin, 1937

- snopes

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applepwnz
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by snopes:
quote:
if you don't have anything to hide, why be afraid
"If you're not a Jew, why be afraid?"
    -- Rudolf Applepwnz, Berlin, 1937

- snopes

ooh did I just catch Snopes with Godwin's Law there? [fish]

Anyways, I just really don't think that it's that sinister that Disney is using fingerprint machines now, especially as they don't use them for personal identification of people, just verification that the same person is using the same ticket.

-edited for spelling

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by applepwnz:
quote:
Originally posted by snopes:
quote:
if you don't have anything to hide, why be afraid
"If you're not a Jew, why be afraid?"
    -- Rudolf Applepwnz, Berlin, 1937

- snopes

ooh did I just catch Snopes with Godwin's Law there? [fish]

No.

quote:
Anyways, I just really don't think that it's that sinister that Disney is using fingerprint machines now, especially as they don't use them for personal identification of people, just verification that the same person is using the same ticket.

-edited for spelling

How do you know? Do you trust DisneyCorp enough to believe that they have your personal interests at heart, and that they will safeguard your information?

I don't know them, myself, so I'm not terribly interested in taking that risk.

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applepwnz
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quote:
How do you know? Do you trust DisneyCorp enough to believe that they have your personal interests at heart, and that they will safeguard your information?

I don't know them, myself, so I'm not terribly interested in taking that risk. [/QB]

I certainly do not trust any company to take my personal interests at heart, my point is that basically, so what if they were to give my fingerprints to the government. I'm sure that I had to get fingerprinted for some merit badge back when I was in the Boy Scouts so the government has my fingerprints anyways (as they have records of most peoples' probably) so really I could care less if Uncle Sam knows when I was on vacation at Disney World
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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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The government certainly doesn't have "most people's" fingerprints; there is no reason for them to.

And if you don't care if Uncle Sam knows you were at Disney World, bully for you.

I don't think it, or nearly everything else I do, is any of the government's business.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Hans Off
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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It all seems a bit tin foil hatted to me!

What are you afraid that Disney would use the data for?

For when their great masterplan comes together and all the non-beleivers will get carted off in cattle wagons to the frozen tundra??

Perhaps they just want one ticket-one admission!


Seariosly though, Does the U.S have an equivelent of the U.K's Data Protection Act prohibiting the distribution and/or misuse of confidential data?

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Oh, I doubt highly that Disney is going to do anything malevolent with the information. That isn't really the point. The point is that I disagree that Disney's reason to have the information is less, far less, compelling than my reason to want to keep my personal information personal.

[ETA: I think Disney could come up with a way of ensuring one admission/ticket that is less intrusive.]

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Hans Off
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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In resopnse to AnglRdr but..generically... a question to all...

In all seriousness, why is your fingerprint personal information?

For the sake of argument, would you be as anti if the policy was to take a mugshot of you rather than your print? they would be equally unique.

Disney's reason to have the information is to protect their interests and protect them from fraud...

(Yes I know that we are talking about the Great and Evil Disney, pretend it is an old lady running a small profit attraction in the middle of the desert or something)

...Stripping the matter down, it is the most cost effective way of prevention of multiple entries (and reducing lost revenue) and saves the most time for the public to get into the park.

I for one do not understand the horror about the thought of a company having my fingerprint for 30 days.

I don't get the objection.

Please enlighten me!!! (no, I am not provoking anyone, just explain the problem to me!)

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DaGuyWitBluGlasses
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Are you going to be denied admission if you burn your finger (accidentally)?
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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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There is no compelling reason Disney or any other retailer needs my fingerprint or any other biometric information in order to complete a transaction.

And after the whole google being subpoenaed thing of earlier this year, I'm very uneasy about them keeping the records for 30 days prior to destroying them. Why would they need to keep my personal information they don't need for 30 days?

(And visitors to the Magic Kingdom can rest assured their photos are taken many, many times during a visit.)

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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snopes
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quote:
The biometric scan is not that big of a deal. It addresses a problem Disney had with multiple people using the same pass to get in the park in the same day.
Couldn't they address that by putting conventional scanners at ride entrances so that visitors must have possession of their park admission tickets in order to get into attractions?

- snopes

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Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by snopes:
quote:
The biometric scan is not that big of a deal. It addresses a problem Disney had with multiple people using the same pass to get in the park in the same day.
Couldn't they address that by putting conventional scanners at ride entrances so that visitors must have possession of their park admission tickets in order to get into attractions?
They could but then they wouldn't get all this free publicity.
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Nion
We Three Blings


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*scratches head*

Unless you don't touch anything bare-handed, anyone can have a copy of your fingerprints . . .

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Ganzfeld
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quote:
Originally posted by RelicMan:
*scratches head*

Unless you don't touch anything bare-handed, anyone can have a copy of your fingerprints . . .

It's pretty hard to get raw prints into a database. Someone can get your credit card number by reading it from thirty feet with binoculars but it's a lot easier when you hand them the card and let them swipe it.
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snopes
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quote:
Unless you don't touch anything bare-handed, anyone can have a copy of your fingerprints ...
"Anyone" isn't likely to compile a database of fingerprints that could be subpoenaed by the government, and "anyone" isn't likely to enter your fingerprints into a national database.

- snopes

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Nion
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BUT anyone could use them for other things, I'm sure.

My point is that while someone is worrying about the government having your fingerprints on file, the guy standing behind you could whip out scotch tape and have access to them, too. *shrug*

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Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by RelicMan:
BUT anyone could use them for other things, I'm sure.

My point is that while someone is worrying about the government having your fingerprints on file, the guy standing behind you could whip out scotch tape and have access to them, too. *shrug*

Have you ever tried to get prints? It's not really that easy. Even if you do manage to come away with something, the likelihood that a casual touch is going to be a useful print without an existing database is extremely small. The number of surfaces that can keep an easy-to-get print is very small to begin with. Most of the prints will be meaningless smudges anyway. You need to have a record of clean prints to do anything at all with field prints. (Even then, it's a laborious and error-prone process. That's why the FBI has a database with sophisticated print-matching software.)
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snopes
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quote:
My point is that while someone is worrying about the government having your fingerprints on file, the guy standing behind you could whip out scotch tape and have access to them, too.
So what? My neighbor can probably eavesdrop on my phone calls if she stands in her front yard and cups her hand to her ear. Does that I mean I shouldn't care that the government might be tapping my phone?

- snopes

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Nion
We Three Blings


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But is it going to matter more that the government knows you (meaning anyone, not you specifically!) have herpes, or that your entire neighborhood does?

We as a society are more open than I think we are aware. We're standing here glaring at big brother, while the local gossip queen is running around writing down all your juicy info and the hometown criminal is jotting down your credit card number off of the statement in your trash.

Should be focusing on the people who can directly affect us? Or should we be sneering at the people who could really give a shit?

Just my opinion, mind you.

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Nion
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quote:
Originally posted by Ganzfeld:
quote:
Originally posted by RelicMan:
BUT anyone could use them for other things, I'm sure.

My point is that while someone is worrying about the government having your fingerprints on file, the guy standing behind you could whip out scotch tape and have access to them, too. *shrug*

Have you ever tried to get prints? It's not really that easy. Even if you do manage to come away with something, the likelihood that a casual touch is going to be a useful print without an existing database is extremely small. The number of surfaces that can keep an easy-to-get print is very small to begin with. Most of the prints will be meaningless smudges anyway. You need to have a record of clean prints to do anything at all with field prints. (Even then, it's a laborious and error-prone process. That's why the FBI has a database with sophisticated print-matching software.)
Sorry, didn't see your post!

It all depends on the situation, I guess. I leave (what appear to be) painfully clear fingerprints on packing tape I use at work all the time. As for the database thing . . . Well, if the person collecting the prints saw you put them there, I guess it's pretty clear who the prints belong to. [Wink]

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Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by RelicMan:
It all depends on the situation, I guess. I leave (what appear to be) painfully clear fingerprints on packing tape I use at work all the time. As for the database thing . . . Well, if the person collecting the prints saw you put them there, I guess it's pretty clear who the prints belong to.

That's very different from what you said. When your fingers touch the tape, the print is in the sticky part of the tape. When you pick up a print from another surface, you've got to either have very special tape or some special way of processing the print or the tape. Either way you've still got to scan it in, find out what part of the hand it is (or if it is a print at all). Then you've got to eliminate the parts that aren't prints and codify all of this in some form that will be readily retrievable... All of this hours or weeks of work is done in less than a second by the biometric security devices. The print is clear because the device is designed to make it so. You know what part of the hand it is and what it's position was at the time. You can easily eliminate noise after testing the same device thousands of times and all of this means you can automate the database processes. That's not even considering that you know who's print it is, which is probably one of the more time-consuming issues if you think about all the time wasted with old prints and irrelevant prints. You may have an argument about our web use or our credit card use, etc. but when it comes to fingerprints, what you offer is never ever going to come close to what can be picked up. (Sorry to belabor the point but it seems to be a common fallacy so I decided to post again about it.)
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Nion
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I do suppose that makes sense. Thanks for clearing it up for me. [Smile]

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Mickey is a Hanukkah Bush
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You know, I just realized a problem for some people with those fingerprint scans...and it actually relates to something that happened with me this summer!

My fingerprints don't read well. When they did my employment hiring stuff, and had to fingerprint me, they couldn't, because my prints were "unreadable" in a computer. So for some, the fingerprinting may not be so safe.

Oh, and just in case anyone is concerned, they don't require the use of biometrics or fingerprinting for children under 12.

But getting back to my personal uneasiness about it. My dad does computer security for the government, and has done hacking (legally) for all kinds of machinery. I know that Disney's IT team for cast members isn't the best (think of outsourcing- but in Lake Buena Vista, FL), so I'm wary of how their security for people's fingerprints may be. Besides, if anyone is using a Walt Disney World Resort room key as their ticket, their name is attached to their ticket. Therefore, their fingerprint is attached to their ticket.

It's all too shady for me. Especially since I use my cast member ID to enter the parks, I'm not fond of the idea of having fingerprints in an additional database (well, the first one is really my seven-year history) for a company that's so famous, people may WANT to hack into it.

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B Hamilton
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The fingerscan is not tied to your name on the tickets. Whoever uses the ticket first just has his scan attached to the ticket. The ticket does not have your name anywhere in the data base unless you are using an annual pass at Disney. The computer just records that the fingerprint matches the ticket. So whoever uses the ticket first has that scan attached to the ticket but no name. The only reason you write your name on the ticket is to keep you from mixing up your ticket with someone else's ticket in your party and slowing down the line.

Universal also uses the fingerscan for all multi-day tickets but not for one day tickets and not for annual passes. (Universal annual passes have your picture on them so there is no need for a fingerscan---sure hope they don't send my picture to the FBI as I do look rather scary in mine.)

The fingerscan is to discourage reselling of tickets. Most are assuming this is to save money for Disney which is just one of the reason. The other reason is to discourage reselling so the guest doesn't get stuck with a useless ticket. There is no way to tell when you purchase a used ticket if there are any days left. You can buy a 5 day ticket on eBay only to find when you try to enter the park that all the days have been used. This happens hundreds of times a day at the themeparks. Fraudulent ticket sales are a real problem for all the themeparks and for the consumer.

Also it doesn't save a picture of your fingerprint, just an algorithm of the points including size and shape of the tip of the finger or thumb. Even then, the computer does not know that the fingerprint belongs to Jane Smtih only that that fingerprint belongs to the first person that used ticket number: 2347659920721132771

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Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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The smart solution is to annoy your customers and make them feel violated? I doubt it.
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B Hamilton
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Well Disney has been doing biometrics for annual passholders for over 5 years with few complaints. Violated? That sounds a little overdramatic.

Universal just started the biometrics a year ago and the complaints have been about it slowing the line down at the turnstiles not about being "violated."

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Singing in the Drizzle
Jingle Bell Hock


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B Hamilton, you are making the most sense of this.

I have never been to a Disney park. So have no idea of what they do for guests.

If I were running a bussnes and wanted to check peoples ID to ticks and make use of biometrics. I would not spend lots of money storing the information on a computer some were. When I could easly put the information on the ticket. When the time comes to verify the ticket, you check the information on the ticket to the persons biometrics. You just need a reader and it does not need to even be hooked up to some computer to verify the information.

The internet does the same thing all the time. Snopes does not store your preferances or where you have been when you visite. It would be a big waste of Snopes computer storage. So the internet created cookies to store this information about your use of a site on your own computer. If you remove the file, it will look like you have never read a thread and you will need to login to post again. I do not know if post count is stored in the cookie.

Disney tickets should be the same. You destroy the ticket and all you biometrics are lost with it.

Posts: 597 | From: Bellingham, WA | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
I do not know if post count is stored in the cookie.
The only thging your cookies store is the saved mane ands password. Your profile and everthing in it is stored on the server(s).

It would make no sense to store evertyhing locally in the profile. All a cookie stored is information that web sites use to retrieve information about you.

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W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

Posts: 2311 | From: Minnnesota | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Arriah
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by B Hamilton:
Also it doesn't save a picture of your fingerprint, just an algorithm of the points including size and shape of the tip of the finger or thumb. Even then, the computer does not know that the fingerprint belongs to Jane Smtih only that that fingerprint belongs to the first person that used ticket number: 2347659920721132771

I wondered if anyone else actually read the article carefully. Disney is NOT making a print database. They're just recording a number that is the position and size of a couple of points of a print and it's not even matched to your name. That is not really going to be that usefule even against the FBI's database of prints since those few points are going to repeated on lots of people when you're checking against as many as they have.

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Conforming meant that everyone liked you except yourself
Rebecca

Posts: 682 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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