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Author Topic: Becoming an illegal alien
Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Norton II:
Mr. Hopkins must travel in different parts of Iowa than I've been in. When I was in Des Moines and Davenport three years ago, I didn't notice Spanish signs in stores, Spanish-speaking employees at resturants, Spanish language channels on cable TV, or any reason to believe that English wasn't the first language of the vast majority of Iowans. Please tell me, Mr. Hopkins, which sections of Iowa have become Mexican or Puerto Rican colonies?

I believe it was in Boone in 1999 that I first encountered a Spanish section, but I won't swear to it. I went to dozens of little towns and several of them had Spanish areas. Many places, of course, didn't yet. But some of the locals I spoke with (no I don't remember their names) saw it as a trend, and one they didn't like.
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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Norton II:
Mr. Hopkins must travel in different parts of Iowa than I've been in. When I was in Des Moines and Davenport three years ago, I didn't notice Spanish signs in stores, Spanish-speaking employees at resturants, Spanish language channels on cable TV, or any reason to believe that English wasn't the first language of the vast majority of Iowans. Please tell me, Mr. Hopkins, which sections of Iowa have become Mexican or Puerto Rican colonies?

Since we love sources:
From a drug rehab site. "The large Mexican communities in Iowa provide an infrastructure to import and distribute the methamphetamine."

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wanderwoman
Bluetooth Christmas


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Here you go, Mr. Hopkins, some actual numbers. It must indeed be tough to find a place where people speak English in a state that's 91.7% non-Hispanic White!

Edited because I quoted the wrong statistic.

--------------------
"But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home
NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language

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Norton II
Deck the Malls


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From wanderwoman's cite:
quote:
Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin, percent, 2004 -- 3.5%
Since the population of Iowa is given as 2,966,334, that means that slightly over 10,000 of them are Hispanic. Yep, the state is just overrun with Mexicans.

Thank you, wanderwoman, for getting the data.

ETA thanks.

--------------------
Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico

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Roadie
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
I might point out that everyone's nitpicking over my writing hints at a love of the English language that the content of the posts try to deny.

Well, if that were a correct conclusion based on the evidence, then I conclude that you must hate the English language based on the contents of your posts. Before you worry too much about them darn immigrants, why don't you work a little harder at polishing your own usage of the language you love?

Oh, and see my sig line. You owe the kitty big, pal.

--------------------
"The little local company I buy from has CHEAP shipping and I have met their goats." (snapdragonfly)

"And that's one lost erection I'll never get back! You hear me Dan! I'm owed an erection!" (I'mNotDedalus)

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:
Let me begin by saying that I know of no way to "score points" within the context of this message board. Beyond that, I believe that my point was made very clear.

Please don't use quotation marks to put words in my mouth. There are no points. To "score off" people is to put them down in front of others in order to make yourself look superior. Among close friends it is acceptable, but in a debate it's just rude.
Again, I don't know of this "scoring" that you're referring to. If you feel inferior, it is of your own doing, not mine.

quote:
I believe I am reacting rationally. Lack of communication causes serious problems. I do not fear Spanish, I fear the loss of English.


quote:
quote:
Countries throughout the world deal with language on a daily basis. In Poland, if you are seeking a high paying job, it's best to be fluent in Polish, English, and German or French.
(snip)
Canada has two official languages and is a prosperous, democractic nation. It's 7th in terms of GDP per capita.

Showing that bilingual nations can succeed doesn't counter my argument. You point out how people in these countries are practically required to learn a second language and that the second language is usually English. Yes, knowing English is a benefit. Yes, better communication is a benefit. That is what I want for the United States.
Actually, what it shows is that a country can having multilingual citizens without losing their own language. Germans speak a lot of English...but, strangely, the German language has not been lost.

Knowing English is not a benefit, in and of itself. Knowing multiple languages is a benefit.

quote:
quote:
In India, there are hundreds of languages spoken. They have no less than 23 official languages...and they've been taking away all those sweet, sweet American jobs.
India is not a country I would wish to emulate. Plus only the English speakers get "sweet" American jobs.
And, again, all those Indian languages have not been lost. With all that English being spoken, they still communicate in Hindi, Urdu, and dozens of other regional languages.

quote:
I didn't want to sell anything to Spanish speaking people. I wanted to sell something to English speaking people. I also like to buy from English speaking people. I like to be able to communicate in any business transaction. Why is that so hard to understand?
Hmmm....well, it would seem that you've now turned to lying outright. From your earlier post:
quote:
I also have personal experience from when I worked as a salesman in Iowa. I was sent out to meet with local business owners. Many times they spoke only Spanish so I had no chance to make a sale.
(Bold mine for emphasis)
If you'd like a chance to make a sale with someone who prefers to speak in Spanish, learn Spanish. Again, that's what us freedom-loving Americans call "capitalism".

quote:
At a hamburger joint in Maryland, I had to go through four people before they found someone who could understand that I wanted grilled not raw onions.
Eat somewhere else.

quote:
At a car rental in Boston, I had to call my boss at home to see if he purchased insurance when he arranged my car, because no one at the counter could understand my question.
Rent your own car next time.

quote:
At a video store in Iowa, no movies in English were offered. They catered only to the Spanish population.
So go shop at a video store that doesn't cater to a Spanish speaking audience.

quote:
Am I still at fault in those cases?
Yes.
quote:
Who is it that is supposed to learn a new language for the sake of capitalism, the buyer or the seller?

The correct answer is whomever wishes to benefit from the product or service most.


quote:
PS Thank you for finally dropping the sarcasm. That too, was hurting communication.

I suggest you learn to deal with sarcasm and Spanish. You will find you have a lot fewer problems in life.

--------------------
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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wanderwoman and Norton II,

Illegals don't show up on census data. I was there, were you? They didn't speak English. They spoke Spanish. Ask someone who lives in Iowa if the Mexican population is growing or not.

Roadie,

You think you are so clever, but you got it backwards. The CONTENT of my posts say I love English, but you concluded from my USAGE that I hate it. BTW, most of these posts are full of little errors, but I am not going to point them out every time. You are barking up the wrong tree if you think you can shame me.

Methuselah,

quote:
Again, I don't know of this "scoring" that you're referring to. If you feel inferior, it is of your own doing, not mine.
It's an English expression. It is not literal it's literary. Read a book!

quote:
Hmmm....well, it would seem that you've now turned to lying outright. From your earlier post:

quote:I also have personal experience from when I worked as a salesman in Iowa. I was sent out to meet with local business owners. Many times they spoke only Spanish so I had no chance to make a sale.

(Bold mine for emphasis)
If you'd like a chance to make a sale with someone who prefers to speak in Spanish, learn Spanish. Again, that's what us freedom-loving Americans call "capitalism".

I will use small words. I was sent out to make the sale. I did not set up the meeting. I was not told it was a Spanish place. I would not have gone if I had known. It was a waste of gas.

Since you claim my inability to communicate with Spanish speaking people is always my fault, whether I am the buyer or the seller, and since you insist that I learn Spanish, you are making my point. Americans like me feel we will be pressured to learn Spanish if the immigrants aren't pressured to learn English. The notion that the English speaking white guy is always at fault supports my argument that the PC movement has succeeded.

Everyone,

The topic of this thread was whether or not the OP was real. The OP was being sarcastic. He did not want to become an illegal alien. He wanted to make it known he favors government getting tougher on illegals, not softer. It was obvious to me, and, I suspect, to most of you too.

I understand that I am the only one on this thread that agrees with the OP's position (but not his tactic). It is fine if you want to argue the issue, but don't pretend the other side doesn't have valid concerns. Instead of calling me names, picking at my grammer, calling me a liar, and making jokes, how about making a real counter-argument?

Here are my points, see if you can answer the questions:

#1: Illegal immigration is illegal for a reason - The country doesn't want people to settle here without permission.

Why is the country wrong to have immigration laws?

#2: America does a poor job at enforcing immigration laws, and some of us would like to see a better job done.

Should we just ignore the laws? Explain.

#3: Some sections of the country, especially in CA, AZ, NM, TX, and FL, have large Spanish-speaking populations.

True or false?

#4: The majority of America speaks English only.

True or false?

#5 It is difficult for people with different languages to communicate. Therefore, it is beneficial for a country to have a common language. It doesn't matter how many other languages people speak, there should be at least one that they all have in common.

Is there a situation where it would be better for a nation NOT to have any common language?

#6 The common language in America should be English for two reasons. It is already spoken by the most people. It is the dominant international language.

Why should the common language be Spanish instead?

#7 The language barrier is only one of many objections to illegal immigration. Another is that illegals don't pay taxes but use the services that tax dollars provide.

Why should illegals not have to pay taxes if they earn an income?

#8 Some illegals are not here to work, they are here to engage in criminal activies such as drug dealing.

Is this something we should be worried about? Explain.

#9 Some illegals work here but spend very little money here. They reduce costs by having many people share the same dwelling (against the law), and send most of their money back to Mexico. This is encouraged by Mexico because it is good (in the short term) for the Mexican economy.

Isn't this bad for the American economy? Explain.

#10 Some claim America needs foriegn born workers, since we won't do certain jobs, such as farming and cleaning. I believe reality shows prove Americans will do just about anything if the price is right. American business should be forced to raise salaries until citizens are willing to do the work. If the nation is at full employment and still needs more labor, we should accept legal immigrants, make them citizens and give them all the benefits American workers receive.

Why is this not a good plan? Why is it better to let employers save money by using illegal labor, and setting salaries so low that Americans would prefer to go on welfare?

Let's prentend that I am not the only one who feels this way. See who can answer the questions without attacking me personally. Just for fun.

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wanderwoman
Bluetooth Christmas


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quote:
Let's prentend that I am not the only one who feels this way. See who can answer the questions without attacking me personally. Just for fun.
An interesting comment in a post that includes personal attacks.

I'm not going to answer your questions because you are operating on a false premise. Actually, you seem to be operating on a whole slew of false premises.

I'm not buying your hyperbole about immigrants, or about the English language disappearing because some people speak Spanish. That doesn't mean I don't understand the problems that go along with immigration. I think we need to find real solutions to those problems, based on facts and not prejudice.

I hear Spanish spoken a lot where I live. Indiana has about the same proportion of Hispanic immigrants that Iowa has, around 3%. I have never had any trouble making myself understood in a place of business, even when I go into a Hispanic-run business. So I'm wondering if it's the way you speak English rather than the fact that they speak Spanish.

All of the Spanish-speakers I know are either bilingual or are making an attempt to learn English. Learning a second language can be difficult so they don't always succeed very well. But every Hispanic family I know has bilingual children. I also know a few grandchildren of Hispanic immigrants who don't speak Spanish at all. So I don't buy your "sky is falling" scenario about the language.

--------------------
"But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home
NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language

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Norton II
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
wanderwoman and Norton II,

Illegals don't show up on census data. I was there, were you? They didn't speak English. They spoke Spanish. Ask someone who lives in Iowa if the Mexican population is growing or not.

quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
I also have personal experience from when I worked as a salesman in Iowa. I was sent out to meet with local business owners. Many times they spoke only Spanish so I had no chance to make a sale.

How many of these illegal immigrants were you trying to sell stuff to but couldn't because you don't speak Spanish?

Edited to fix quote

--------------------
Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Norton II:
How many of these illegal immigrants were you trying to sell stuff to but couldn't because you don't speak Spanish?

It was a very, very small percent of my total sales calls. I remember two distictly, a clothing store and a video store, but there were others. The number doesn't matter. In each case, no one in the place spoke English, so business could not be conducted. They could not understand me, and would not have been able to get service from them had I been a customer. My point was that when there is a language barrier, it is bad for business. I am perfectly qualified to work in a video rental store, but I wouldn't have been able to work in that one. I wouldn't have even been able to apply. I chose Iowa as my example because I had been there. There are other places in the US where the Spanish population is dominant, but I have not been to those place so I can't speak to them first hand. However, I can extrapolate from my experience elsewhere.

You are right, Iowa is mostly English, but in the small areas where only Spanish is spoken, it is hard to get along. I would not want to live in a place that was even worse than that.

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by wanderwoman:
An interesting comment in a post that includes personal attacks.

Please cite the personal attacks.

quote:
I'm not going to answer your questions because you are operating on a false premise. Actually, you seem to be operating on a whole slew of false premises.
Please cite the false premises.

quote:
I'm not buying your hyperbole about immigrants, or about the English language disappearing because some people speak Spanish. That doesn't mean I don't understand the problems that go along with immigration. I think we need to find real solutions to those problems, based on facts and not prejudice.

I hear Spanish spoken a lot where I live. Indiana has about the same proportion of Hispanic immigrants that Iowa has, around 3%. I have never had any trouble making myself understood in a place of business, even when I go into a Hispanic-run business. So I'm wondering if it's the way you speak English rather than the fact that they speak Spanish.

All of the Spanish-speakers I know are either bilingual or are making an attempt to learn English. Learning a second language can be difficult so they don't always succeed very well. But every Hispanic family I know has bilingual children. I also know a few grandchildren of Hispanic immigrants who don't speak Spanish at all. So I don't buy your "sky is falling" scenario about the language.

You claim that the problem doesn't not yet exist where you live. I believe you. However, you won't believe me that it exists elsewhere. Read the Time article. Are they lying too?
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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:
Again, I don't know of this "scoring" that you're referring to. If you feel inferior, it is of your own doing, not mine.

Some brief Googling turned up this passage from "Right Ho, Jeeves" by P.G. Wodehouse, one of the greatest writers of the 20th century.
quote:
"I mean to say, it's obvious that she must have spotted you in those bushes and was simply talking to score off you. There you were, I mean, if you follow the psychology, and she saw you, and in that impulsive way girls have, she seized the opportunity of ribbing you a bit--just told you a few home truths, I mean to say."
The entire novel is online and I highly recommend it. The quote is from Chapter 15.
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Norton II
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
quote:
Originally posted by Norton II:
How many of these illegal immigrants were you trying to sell stuff to but couldn't because you don't speak Spanish?

It was a very, very small percent of my total sales calls. I remember two distictly, a clothing store and a video store, but there were others. The number doesn't matter. In each case, no one in the place spoke English, so business could not be conducted. They could not understand me, and would not have been able to get service from them had I been a customer. My point was that when there is a language barrier, it is bad for business. I am perfectly qualified to work in a video rental store, but I wouldn't have been able to work in that one. I wouldn't have even been able to apply. I chose Iowa as my example because I had been there. There are other places in the US where the Spanish population is dominant, but I have not been to those place so I can't speak to them first hand. However, I can extrapolate from my experience elsewhere.
Personally, I'm impressed that two stores could become running concerns when the owners didn't speak enough English to talk to a salesman. I wonder how they get their taxes done, get insurance, order from wholesalers, and do all the myriad of things required to keep operating.

quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
You are right, Iowa is mostly English, but in the small areas where only Spanish is spoken, it is hard to get along. I would not want to live in a place that was even worse than that.

I know there are parts of the country where Spanish is prevalent. I've been in North Miami in the past five years. I also know that speaking, reading and writing fluent English is a requirement to become a success in this country.

Just as a minor point, in New England where I live, the major illegal immigrant influx is the Irish. Somehow, I suspect these people would be more acceptable to you, since they're Northern European, speak fluent English, and don't have strange names.

--------------------
Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico

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wanderwoman
Bluetooth Christmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
quote:
Originally posted by wanderwoman:
An interesting comment in a post that includes personal attacks.

Please cite the personal attacks.
quote:
It's an English expression. It is not literal it's literary. Read a book!

I will use small words. I was sent out to make the sale.

(emphasis mine)

quote:
I'm not going to answer your questions because you are operating on a false premise. Actually, you seem to be operating on a whole slew of false premises.

Please cite the false premises.

I started to do that and I'm not going to bother to try to cover them all. Your posts are riddled with false premises. You are attempting to use anecdotes to make global pronouncements of doom. Believe all of it if you like, but don't expect anybody else to go along with it.

I will give you a few though:
It's not true that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes.
There are not entire areas of the United States where Americans cannot get a job without speaking Spanish.
Nobody here said that the country should not have immigration laws.
Nobody here said that they don't love the English language. Not being afraid of the Spanish language is not the same thing as not loving the English language.

quote:
You claim that the problem doesn't not yet exist where you live. I believe you. However, you won't believe me that it exists elsewhere. Read the Time article. Are they lying too?
You clearly didn't understand my post. I said there are plenty of Spanish speakers here as well. Just about as many as in Iowa. You define having another language spoken as a huge problem, I don't. I have always found a way to communicate with people I need to communicate with. And I'm sure that in Iowa, a place with at least 2.7 million people who speak English, you could have done so too if you had wanted to.

As far as the Time article goes, that's about problems in the border states. Let me just repeat something I said in my previous post, because you seem to have missed it: "That doesn't mean I don't understand the problems that go along with immigration. I think we need to find real solutions to those problems, based on facts and not prejudice." (emphasis added)

By the way, I think your company ought to fire whoever is setting up sales calls for Hispanic businesses and sending someone who not only doesn't speak Spanish, but doesn't even think Spanish-speaking people should be living here. That's bad business practice if you ask me.

--------------------
"But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home
NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language

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James D
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:

I understand that I am the only one on this thread that agrees with the OP's position (but not his tactic). It is fine if you want to argue the issue, but don't pretend the other side doesn't have valid concerns. Instead of calling me names, picking at my grammer, calling me a liar, and making jokes, how about making a real counter-argument?

Here are my points, see if you can answer the questions:

#1: Illegal immigration is illegal for a reason - The country doesn't want people to settle here without permission.

Why is the country wrong to have immigration laws?

#2: America does a poor job at enforcing immigration laws, and some of us would like to see a better job done.

Should we just ignore the laws? Explain.

#3: Some sections of the country, especially in CA, AZ, NM, TX, and FL, have large Spanish-speaking populations.

True or false?

#4: The majority of America speaks English only.

True or false?

#5 It is difficult for people with different languages to communicate. Therefore, it is beneficial for a country to have a common language. It doesn't matter how many other languages people speak, there should be at least one that they all have in common.

Is there a situation where it would be better for a nation NOT to have any common language?

#6 The common language in America should be English for two reasons. It is already spoken by the most people. It is the dominant international language.

Why should the common language be Spanish instead?

#7 The language barrier is only one of many objections to illegal immigration. Another is that illegals don't pay taxes but use the services that tax dollars provide.

Why should illegals not have to pay taxes if they earn an income?

#8 Some illegals are not here to work, they are here to engage in criminal activies such as drug dealing.

Is this something we should be worried about? Explain.

#9 Some illegals work here but spend very little money here. They reduce costs by having many people share the same dwelling (against the law), and send most of their money back to Mexico. This is encouraged by Mexico because it is good (in the short term) for the Mexican economy.

Isn't this bad for the American economy? Explain.

#10 Some claim America needs foriegn born workers, since we won't do certain jobs, such as farming and cleaning. I believe reality shows prove Americans will do just about anything if the price is right. American business should be forced to raise salaries until citizens are willing to do the work. If the nation is at full employment and still needs more labor, we should accept legal immigrants, make them citizens and give them all the benefits American workers receive.

Why is this not a good plan? Why is it better to let employers save money by using illegal labor, and setting salaries so low that Americans would prefer to go on welfare?

Let's prentend that I am not the only one who feels this way. See who can answer the questions without attacking me personally. Just for fun.

1. And yet, "bring us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to be free" still remains an ideal in our cherished national conciousness. Reasons for immigration laws range from the pragmatic (we need to keep track of how many people are coming in), to the contraversial (if they came in legally we'd have to pay them the same wages as the citizens who are already here, and they would compete for jobs - As well as remain consumers in the marketplace.), to the downright racist (Oh, no. The brown skined people might start to outnumber us. If they do that they might treat us the way we treat them).

2. That's a good question. We do tend to ignore certain laws (commonly known as 'blue laws'). There might be valid reason to rethink our policies regarding immigration, and look into whether or not many of the concerns given have real merit.

3. True. And in the protectorate of Puerto Rico it is the most common language.

4. I'm not sure, but I would guess that a slim majority speaks a second language in addition to English.

5. Ah, the lingua franca. If you want to take that to it's logical conclusion, the whole world should be able to speak one language. If you'ld rather take it down a notch, it could be practical for our nation to eliminate the various regional dialects (and some dialects are very hard to comprehend).

Though frankly, I think such things are more likely to happen organically as instantanious worldwide communication becomes more widespread, rather than mandated by fiat.

6. Huh? The common language in the US is English. Are you suggesting some sort of legal mandate to imprison anyone who takes a class in French or German, or do you think that anyone can pick up English in a day or two - and if they don't they have nothing of value to give to our nation while they learn?

7. Perhaps if we allowed them to live here legally, then they would pay income taxes as well as sales taxes. As it is the employers who are paying them under the table, perhaps they are the ones we should go after.

8. Many native born Americans also engage in various crimes, such as drug dealing, insurance fraud, corporate raiding, violation of health and safety codes, and jaywalking. How is that any different?

9. Ah, strains of the Waltons. Many people living at the same residence isn't a matter of cultural greed, it's a matter of extreme poverty.

And I seriously doubt that the money being shipped back to Mexico to help relatives survive holds even a candle to the rest of our trade deficit. To say nothing of the large scale income tax revenues lost through jobs ofshored to India and elsewhere.

And that's not even counting the vast sums hidden in offshore tax shelters by various 'investors'.

10. A good point, up to a point, anyway. However, the number of jobs available is not a static figure. I would rather have immigrants working legally too, as the generation of wealth depends on the value of goods and services rendered - and more people with money to buy those goods and services feeds the economic cycle.

--------------------
The best measure of a man's honesty isn't his income tax return. It's the zero adjust on his bathroom scale.
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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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Kudos to you for taking this seriously. So far you seem to be the only one.

1. Why is the country wrong to have immigration laws?

quote:
Originally posted by James D:
1. And yet, "bring us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to be free" still remains an ideal in our cherished national conciousness. Reasons for immigration laws range from the pragmatic (we need to keep track of how many people are coming in), to the contraversial (if they came in legally we'd have to pay them the same wages as the citizens who are already here, and they would compete for jobs - As well as remain consumers in the marketplace.), to the downright racist (Oh, no. The brown skined people might start to outnumber us. If they do that they might treat us the way we treat them).

Ok, the laws go against our ideals and may be racist. Good answer.

2. Should we just ignore the laws? Explain.

quote:
2. That's a good question. We do tend to ignore certain laws (commonly known as 'blue laws'). There might be valid reason to rethink our policies regarding immigration, and look into whether or not many of the concerns given have real merit.
In other words, maybe.

3. Some sections of the country, especially in CA, AZ, NM, TX, and FL, have large Spanish-speaking populations.

True or false?

quote:
3. True. And in the protectorate of Puerto Rico it is the most common language.
Yay for truth!

4. The majority of America speaks English only.

True or false?

quote:
4. I'm not sure, but I would guess that a slim majority speaks a second language in addition to English.

If they do, they keep it on the down low. "In 2003, about 214.8 million, or 81.6%, of the population aged five years and older spoke only English at home." According to Wikipedia.

5. Is there a situation where it would be better for a nation NOT to have any common language?

quote:
5. Ah, the lingua franca. If you want to take that to it's logical conclusion, the whole world should be able to speak one language. If you'ld rather take it down a notch, it could be practical for our nation to eliminate the various regional dialects (and some dialects are very hard to comprehend).

Though frankly, I think such things are more likely to happen organically as instantanious worldwide communication becomes more widespread, rather than mandated by fiat.

This is not an answer to my question, but yes, it would be better if the whole world could speak the same language, and no, it should not be mandated.

6. Why should the common language be Spanish instead?

quote:
6. Huh? The common language in the US is English. Are you suggesting some sort of legal mandate to imprison anyone who takes a class in French or German, or do you think that anyone can pick up English in a day or two - and if they don't they have nothing of value to give to our nation while they learn?
I'm not sure how you misunderstood by question so badly. Let me combine the last two questions into a multiple choice.

What would be the best situation for America?

a. To have no common language.
b. To have English as a common language.
c. To have Spanish as a common language.
d. Other.

7. Why should illegals not have to pay taxes if they earn an income?

quote:
7. Perhaps if we allowed them to live here legally, then they would pay income taxes as well as sales taxes. As it is the employers who are paying them under the table, perhaps they are the ones we should go after.
So you are in favor of immigrants being legal and paying their taxes. Does this affect your answer to #1 and #2? Maybe you are in favor of enforced immigration laws, after all.

8. Is this (crime) something we should be worried about? Explain.

quote:
8. Many native born Americans also engage in various crimes, such as drug dealing, insurance fraud, corporate raiding, violation of health and safety codes, and jaywalking. How is that any different?
You seem to be saying we shoudn't be worried since we have so much crime already. The more the merrier?

9. Isn't this bad for the American economy? Explain.

quote:
9. Ah, strains of the Waltons. Many people living at the same residence isn't a matter of cultural greed, it's a matter of extreme poverty.

And I seriously doubt that the money being shipped back to Mexico to help relatives survive holds even a candle to the rest of our trade deficit. To say nothing of the large scale income tax revenues lost through jobs ofshored to India and elsewhere.

And that's not even counting the vast sums hidden in offshore tax shelters by various 'investors'.

You seem to be saying we shoudn't be worried since we have such a bad economy already. BTW, the Waltons owned their own home and were not in violation of any occupancy restrictions.

10. Why is this not a good plan? Why is it better to let employers save money by using illegal labor, and setting salaries so low that Americans would prefer to go on welfare?

quote:
10. A good point, up to a point, anyway. However, the number of jobs available is not a static figure. I would rather have immigrants working legally too, as the generation of wealth depends on the value of goods and services rendered - and more people with money to buy those goods and services feeds the economic cycle.
Again you are in favor of legal immigration. This means having laws, enforcing the laws, and not letting everyone in. Many illegals don't even want to become legal. Some who want to be legal don't have as much to offer as those who have been waiting longer. They should not jump to the front of the line.

I hope everyone else takes note of how James D. and I are debating the issues and not ripping on each other or making wild accusations. Because of this, we may acctually find some common ground. He has already given me something to think about with his answer to number one:

This country used to encourage immigration of the "huddled masses" so to speak. Wouldn't trying to close the border be a shift in national ideals? I think it would. But maybe it is a change we need to make. Once we had vast unsettled territories that we needed to populate in order to secure our claims and harvest natural resourses. At one time we needed much more labor (for the railroads) than was available. In our early days, America was one of the few places on Earth where one could live under a democracy and have guaranteed rights. Yet even in olden days, we didn't have unrestricted immigration. (For instance, we tried to weed out the sick so as not to infect current citizens.)

I believe things are different today. We do not need as many immigrants, yet they are coming faster than ever in history. While some are assimilating after one or two generations. Some show no signs of doing so. They fly Mexican flags at "Reconquista" rallys and insist that their children be taught in Spanish.

Though I value many traditional American ideals, every so often they need to be changed to reflect new circumstances. However, I can see how someone might argue that American should always be the world's asylum - consequences be damned. It is a generous attitude but not one I am ready to share.

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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wanderwoman,

You are still ducking the numbered questions. Why not try answering just one of them? Do you think they are all invalid?

My comments toward Methusalah are a direct response to his twisting of my words and calling me a liar. I told him to read a book because he accused me of making up an expression that can be found in liturature as far back as "The Canterbury Tales." He was trying to discredit me and make me look stupid. I wasn't going to let him get away with it.

My use of small words to imply that he would be confused by anything else was snarky, I admit. But this was a response to his continued (and deliberate?) misunderstanding of my anecdote about not being able to talk to the people in Spanish only businesses.

Even if you think I have been attacking people more than they have been me, why wouldn't you support a cease fire? Are you one of those people who just likes flame wars?

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Ed, English *is* the common language of the US. It is not the official language, however. Common languages usually aren't so because of legislation; they are because of tradition. Are you suggesting that English be the official language of the US?

And, really, the OP was so ridiculous as to merit humorous responses. You can't really dictate how others are going to respond, so I would recommend saving your pixels on the lectures.

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Norton II:
Personally, I'm impressed that two stores could become running concerns when the owners didn't speak enough English to talk to a salesman. I wonder how they get their taxes done, get insurance, order from wholesalers, and do all the myriad of things required to keep operating.

I imagine they dealt only with Spanish-speaking people. I know the IRS provides forms in Spanish, and their wholesalers are probably in Mexico. What should impress you is that they have enough Spanish customers that they can afford to do without the English ones.

quote:
I know there are parts of the country where Spanish is prevalent. I've been in North Miami in the past five years. I also know that speaking, reading and writing fluent English is a requirement to become a success in this country.
It always has been. I just want to keep it that way.

quote:
Just as a minor point, in New England where I live, the major illegal immigrant influx is the Irish. Somehow, I suspect these people would be more acceptable to you, since they're Northern European, speak fluent English, and don't have strange names.
You suspect wrong. All illegals are equally unacceptable to me. However, if you want to compare LEGAL immigrants who speak English to those who only speak Spanish, then yes, I have a preference for the people I can understand. BTW, how are Mexican names stranger than Irish ones? (Aodh Ruadh Ó Domhnaill is a good old fashioned Irish name.)
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Don Enrico
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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I'm not an American, but I'll go ahead and adress some of your points from my POV.

quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
4. The majority of America speaks English only.

True or false?

quote:
4. I'm not sure, but I would guess that a slim majority speaks a second language in addition to English.

If they do, they keep it on the down low. "In 2003, about 214.8 million, or 81.6%, of the population aged five years and older spoke only English at home." According to Wikipedia.
Speaking a language "at home" (i.e. to communicate with friends and family) doesn't say anything about whether or not you are able to speak any other language(s) if need may be. I can't answer your original question, but your data doesn't answer it either.

quote:
5. Is there a situation where it would be better for a nation NOT to have any common language?

quote:
5. Ah, the lingua franca. If you want to take that to it's logical conclusion, the whole world should be able to speak one language. If you'ld rather take it down a notch, it could be practical for our nation to eliminate the various regional dialects (and some dialects are very hard to comprehend).

Though frankly, I think such things are more likely to happen organically as instantanious worldwide communication becomes more widespread, rather than mandated by fiat.

This is not an answer to my question, but yes, it would be better if the whole world could speak the same language, and no, it should not be mandated.

To answer your question: If a nation has several different cultures, it is a bonus if this cultures are represented through different (first) languages. Nevertheless, it is a bonus, too, if members of this different cultures are able to communicate in one common language (which will be a fist language to some and a second language to others).

quote:
6. Why should the common language be Spanish instead?

quote:
6. Huh? The common language in the US is English. Are you suggesting some sort of legal mandate to imprison anyone who takes a class in French or German, or do you think that anyone can pick up English in a day or two - and if they don't they have nothing of value to give to our nation while they learn?
I'm not sure how you misunderstood by question so badly. Let me combine the last two questions into a multiple choice.

What would be the best situation for America?

a. To have no common language.
b. To have English as a common language.
c. To have Spanish as a common language.
d. Other.

d.: To have a common language (English, Spanish or any other), without losing the other language(s) in the process (see above).

quote:
8. Is this (crime) something we should be worried about? Explain.

quote:
8. Many native born Americans also engage in various crimes, such as drug dealing, insurance fraud, corporate raiding, violation of health and safety codes, and jaywalking. How is that any different?
You seem to be saying we shoudn't be worried since we have so much crime already. The more the merrier?

No, he seems (at least to me) to be saying that crime is something to be worried about (more or less, depending if you talk murder or jaywalking) regardless of the nationality, immigrant status or language of the criminal.

The other points were adressed already.

Don Enrico

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My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear

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PallasAthena
Xboxing Day


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Ed Hopkins, you are a xenophobe. Your arguments are baseless and without merit. You have failed to adequately support your claims with evidence. The fact that you claim to be a teacher disturbs me greatly. I certainly hope you don't spew this sort of filth in your classroom.

I have nothing but contempt for you and your ilk.

--------------------
"How do you make chocolate? You take dark chocolate, you mix it with white milk, and it becomes a delicious drink. That is the chocolate I am talking about." --Ray Nagin

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
I will use small words. I was sent out to make the sale. I did not set up the meeting. I was not told it was a Spanish place. I would not have gone if I had known. It was a waste of gas.

You know, I have great difficulty in believing your claim. It sounds more like sour grapes over not making a sale. The most likely scenario is that the business owner simply didn't want to deal with yet another slimy salesman and knew that slimy salesmen are too arrogant to do something outrageous like learn Spanish, so he put out the whole "no entiendo" routine to get rid of the slimy salesman quickly.

quote:
Americans like me feel we will be pressured to learn Spanish if the immigrants aren't pressured to learn English. The notion that the English speaking white guy is always at fault supports my argument that the PC movement has succeeded.
Ah...so we get down to the real Ed Hopkins viewpoint: America is for English-speaking white guys. And Americans don't like it when people are different.

You have yet to respond to the issue of free-market capitalism. The fact is that English is the majority language of the United States. However, we are a freedom-based democracy. So, no one will be forced to converse in a language that they don't wish to use**. If it is in the best interest of people to learn English, they will learn English (and, keep in mind that 100% of children in the public school system are required to learn English). If it is in the best interest of an English-speaker to learn another language, such as Spanish, then that English-speaker should learn a second language. The alternative is to conquer the world and force your culture onto all peoples. That, by the way, is imperialism, and is generally frowned upon, not because of "PC" mumbo-jumbo, but because we have learned, as a species, that we should not force our will onto others.


**This hasn't always been true, of course. In the past, Native American children were beaten in school for using their native languages, for example. We look back at a time like that with shame, because we realize it was wrong.

--------------------
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
quote:
Originally posted by Norton II:
I know there are parts of the country where Spanish is prevalent. I've been in North Miami in the past five years. I also know that speaking, reading and writing fluent English is a requirement to become a success in this country.

It always has been. I just want to keep it that way.


Actually, I disagree with Norton II's assertion that reading and writing fluent English is required to be successful in this country. There are, and always have been, neighborhoods and other population clusters where the "mother tongue" is the common language, and it is all that is needed to operate successfully.

I do not disagree that speaking English as well would be a benefit, but I disagree that it is a necessity.

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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wanderwoman
Bluetooth Christmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
wanderwoman,

You are still ducking the numbered questions. Why not try answering just one of them? Do you think they are all invalid?

I'll answer one of your questions because it is basic to your continued misunderstanding of my point.

#5 It is better when people have a common language.

My point was that most immigrants, legal or not, feel the same way and are trying to learn English, though it may be a struggle to learn as an adult. Their children are learning English and will be bilingual. Their grandchildren may not even learn to speak Spanish. This is a common pattern with immigrants and there is no reason to think Spanish-speaking people will differ.

quote:
Even if you think I have been attacking people more than they have been me, why wouldn't you support a cease fire? Are you one of those people who just likes flame wars?
Once again you put words in my mouth. I never said you were attacking people more than they have been you. I found it ironic that you would use personal attacks in a post in which you criticized others for using personal attacks and I commented on it. I try to avoid using personal attacks and am not into flame wars at all.

--------------------
"But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home
NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Mr. Hopkins,

I have to ask. Why does the prospect of the country becoming bilingual offend you so much? I mean, really, what on earth could be wrong with that?

--------------------
So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Just to address one false claim (for now):
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
Illegals don't show up on census data.

Yes, they do. Neither the decennial census nor the monthly Current Population Survey ask about legal status, and by law the Census could not tell law enforcement even if they knew. Illegals are counted.

pinqy

--------------------
Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Ed, English *is* the common language of the US. It is not the official language, however. Common languages usually aren't so because of legislation; they are because of tradition. Are you suggesting that English be the official language of the US?

And, really, the OP was so ridiculous as to merit humorous responses. You can't really dictate how others are going to respond, so I would recommend saving your pixels on the lectures.

English is the dominant language of the US. By "common language" I mean a language that everyone uses. Right now, there are many who speak no English, and we are trending toward more people speaking no English. I think this should be treated as seriously as an increase in illiteracy, because the effects are so similar.

Yes, I do beleive that English should be the official language as well.

I appriciate your advice. The OP was an unhelpful way to address the situation. I will not dictate how others will respond because I have no authority to do so. I will continue to suggest that the discussion be civil, because I believe that would be better for everyone. Unfortunatly, some people only participate in these threads for the chance to be rude (see PallasAthena's post). I have a lot of experience dealing with such people, as I teach 12-year-olds. The lectures will continue as needed.

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Don Enrico:
I'm not an American, but I'll go ahead and adress some of your points from my POV.

quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
[qb] 4. The majority of America speaks English only.

True or false?

quote:
4. I'm not sure, but I would guess that a slim majority speaks a second language in addition to English.

If they do, they keep it on the down low. "In 2003, about 214.8 million, or 81.6%, of the population aged five years and older spoke only English at home." According to Wikipedia.
Speaking a language "at home" (i.e. to communicate with friends and family) doesn't say anything about whether or not you are able to speak any other language(s) if need may be. I can't answer your original question, but your data doesn't answer it either.
Good point. School children are required to take so many years of a foreign language. I took French in high school and Spanish in college. It has been my experience that when a language is not used on a daily basis, it is lost. Most people I know have found this to be true. I still stand by my assertion that the majority of Americans speak English only. Would you agree that English only outnumbers Spanish only?

quote:
quote:
5. Is there a situation where it would be better for a nation NOT to have any common language?

quote:
5. Ah, the lingua franca. If you want to take that to it's logical conclusion, the whole world should be able to speak one language. If you'ld rather take it down a notch, it could be practical for our nation to eliminate the various regional dialects (and some dialects are very hard to comprehend).

Though frankly, I think such things are more likely to happen organically as instantanious worldwide communication becomes more widespread, rather than mandated by fiat.

This is not an answer to my question, but yes, it would be better if the whole world could speak the same language, and no, it should not be mandated.
To answer your question: If a nation has several different cultures, it is a bonus if this cultures are represented through different (first) languages. Nevertheless, it is a bonus, too, if members of this different cultures are able to communicate in one common language (which will be a fist language to some and a second language to others).
I don't believe a nation should have different distinct cultures. I do believe a national culture can be an amalgam of multiple cultures, as America's is. But this requires a common language that may or may not also be a mixture. History has shown us that when separate cultures try to occupy the same land, they will clash. Look at the Middle East for modern examples.

quote:
quote:
6. Why should the common language be Spanish instead?

quote:
6. Huh? The common language in the US is English. Are you suggesting some sort of legal mandate to imprison anyone who takes a class in French or German, or do you think that anyone can pick up English in a day or two - and if they don't they have nothing of value to give to our nation while they learn?
I'm not sure how you misunderstood by question so badly. Let me combine the last two questions into a multiple choice.

What would be the best situation for America?

a. To have no common language.
b. To have English as a common language.
c. To have Spanish as a common language.
d. Other.

d.: To have a common language (English, Spanish or any other), without losing the other language(s) in the process (see above).
Your choice is for a common language but you will not choose which one it should be. I vote for English. Which would you pick if the question was on a ballot? Remember that having English as a common language means that all people can speak it, not that other languages are banned. We will still need people who are fluent in all of the world's tongues.


quote:
quote:
8. Is this (crime) something we should be worried about? Explain.

quote:
8. Many native born Americans also engage in various crimes, such as drug dealing, insurance fraud, corporate raiding, violation of health and safety codes, and jaywalking. How is that any different?
You seem to be saying we shoudn't be worried since we have so much crime already. The more the merrier?
No, he seems (at least to me) to be saying that crime is something to be worried about (more or less, depending if you talk murder or jaywalking) regardless of the nationality, immigrant status or language of the criminal.
I agree with that. However, I would add that a criminal who is not a citizen is not entitled to due process. Immigrants should become citizens so that they can enjoy that right. Criminals (in this case drug smugglers mostly) should not be offered citizenship, because the next step would have to be to prosecute them.
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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by PallasAthena:
Ed Hopkins, you are a xenophobe.

Nope.

quote:
Your arguments are baseless and without merit.
Wrong again.

quote:
You have failed to adequately support your claims with evidence.
Strike three.

quote:
The fact that you claim to be a teacher disturbs me greatly.
I am a teacher and yes, you do appear to be disturbed.

quote:
I certainly hope you don't spew this sort of filth in your classroom.
Hope on, sweetheart.

quote:
I have nothing but contempt for you and your ilk.
The contempt is mutual. You bring absolutely nothing of value to this discussion except an example of all that is wrong with internet forums. You are only here to fan the flames just as they were starting to die down. You should be ashamed of yourself.

BTW,I don't have an ilk ... yet.

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
I will use small words. I was sent out to make the sale. I did not set up the meeting. I was not told it was a Spanish place. I would not have gone if I had known. It was a waste of gas.

You know, I have great difficulty in believing your claim. It sounds more like sour grapes over not making a sale. The most likely scenario is that the business owner simply didn't want to deal with yet another slimy salesman and knew that slimy salesmen are too arrogant to do something outrageous like learn Spanish, so he put out the whole "no entiendo" routine to get rid of the slimy salesman quickly.

quote:
Americans like me feel we will be pressured to learn Spanish if the immigrants aren't pressured to learn English. The notion that the English speaking white guy is always at fault supports my argument that the PC movement has succeeded.
Ah...so we get down to the real Ed Hopkins viewpoint: America is for English-speaking white guys. And Americans don't like it when people are different.

You have yet to respond to the issue of free-market capitalism. The fact is that English is the majority language of the United States. However, we are a freedom-based democracy. So, no one will be forced to converse in a language that they don't wish to use**. If it is in the best interest of people to learn English, they will learn English (and, keep in mind that 100% of children in the public school system are required to learn English). If it is in the best interest of an English-speaker to learn another language, such as Spanish, then that English-speaker should learn a second language. The alternative is to conquer the world and force your culture onto all peoples. That, by the way, is imperialism, and is generally frowned upon, not because of "PC" mumbo-jumbo, but because we have learned, as a species, that we should not force our will onto others.


**This hasn't always been true, of course. In the past, Native American children were beaten in school for using their native languages, for example. We look back at a time like that with shame, because we realize it was wrong.

Aww, we were doing so well. Slimy? And three times at that. I guess PallasAthena got one person to bite.

I also notice that you are speaking for me.
quote:
Ed Hopkins viewpoint: America is for English-speaking white guys. And Americans don't like it when people are different.
Show me where I said Americans have to be white guys. On this thread we cite everything we say.

Who are you trying to impress. You are so determined to be combative that you have to make up stuff to combat. Pull yourself together again and I will answer any questions you have.

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Actually, I disagree with Norton II's assertion that reading and writing fluent English is required to be successful in this country. There are, and always have been, neighborhoods and other population clusters where the "mother tongue" is the common language, and it is all that is needed to operate successfully.

I do not disagree that speaking English as well would be a benefit, but I disagree that it is a necessity.

Yes, you are so right. There are such neighborhoods. I'm glad someone finally admits it. And in those neighborhoods the "mother tongue" is all that is needed to be successful - in that neighborhood. But what about between neighborhoods? Not so smooth.

I would like to avoid further fragmenting the country into ethnic and liguistic enclaves. I am not trying to get rid of people from other cultures. If you look at what I'm saying, I want more interaction between people. I want America the melting pot, not the tossed salad.

And I believe what Norton II was saying was that English is necessary to be successful in the whole of America. With which, I also agree.

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by wanderwoman:


My point was that most immigrants, legal or not, feel the same way and are trying to learn English, though it may be a struggle to learn as an adult. Their children are learning English and will be bilingual. Their grandchildren may not even learn to speak Spanish. This is a common pattern with immigrants and there is no reason to think Spanish-speaking people will differ.

I agree with everthing you said up to the last part. There is a reason to think Spanish-speaking people will be different. The current immigration situation is unprecedented in our history. The numbers are so great, the proportion of illegals so high, and the concentration so dense in certain areas, that we are already seeing patterns break. Large numbers of Spanish speaking people are not trying to blend, they are trying to fragment. I totally support the immigrants you speak of, who do make the effort. They are not the issue. In fact, they are often the very people who share my viewpoint.

quote:
Once again you put words in my mouth. I never said you were attacking people more than they have been you. I found it ironic that you would use personal attacks in a post in which you criticized others for using personal attacks and I commented on it. I try to avoid using personal attacks and am not into flame wars at all.
I will admit that I am very condescending to people who are rude. I suppose I should try to be more patient. I was wrong to jump to the conclusion that you are trying to be an agitator. But, you must see that some people here are trying to be just that.

I hope you will believe me and support me when I say I want this discussion to be civil and mature. Notice that I have not called anyone "slimy" nor their ideas "filth."

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Ed, English *is* the common language of the US. It is not the official language, however. Common languages usually aren't so because of legislation; they are because of tradition. Are you suggesting that English be the official language of the US?

And, really, the OP was so ridiculous as to merit humorous responses. You can't really dictate how others are going to respond, so I would recommend saving your pixels on the lectures.

English is the dominant language of the US. By "common language" I mean a language that everyone uses. Right now, there are many who speak no English, and we are trending toward more people speaking no English. I think this should be treated as seriously as an increase in illiteracy, because the effects are so similar.

Actually, I would think the trend line is going the opposite direction. More people spoke no English at the turn of the 20th century than at the turn of the 21st. I think. I do not have statistics to back it up, however. What about you?

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong:
Mr. Hopkins,

I have to ask. Why does the prospect of the country becoming bilingual offend you so much? I mean, really, what on earth could be wrong with that?

It depends on what you mean by a bilingual country.

If you mean a country where everyone speaks both English and Spanish, then my ojection is that it is an unecessarily difficult solution. It may seem more equitable to say "All the immigrants will learn English, and all the natives will learn Spanish, and everybody is happy." But think of the magnitude of teaching Spanish to all of the English-speakers. The same result is gained when the only the Spanish-speakers learn a new language. It may not seem as fair, but it is far more efficient. And think what would happen when a thrid language starts to grow. Would everyone learn English, Spanish, and Chinese too? This is sort of how it works in Europe, and it works pretty well, but it would certainly be easier if they didn't have to do it that way. America has the advantage of a nearly universal language already in place. It would be a shame not to preserve it.

If by bilingual you mean some people speak Spanish and some English and some both, then my ojections are that the country will fragment and we will not be a united United States.

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Norton II
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
quote:
Originally posted by Norton II:
Personally, I'm impressed that two stores could become running concerns when the owners didn't speak enough English to talk to a salesman. I wonder how they get their taxes done, get insurance, order from wholesalers, and do all the myriad of things required to keep operating.

I imagine they dealt only with Spanish-speaking people. I know the IRS provides forms in Spanish, and their wholesalers are probably in Mexico. What should impress you is that they have enough Spanish customers that they can afford to do without the English ones.
Customers are only a small part of the equation, as is the IRS. What I was actually thinking about are state sales taxes. These have to be paid and filed monthly or quarterly and the state will come down hard if the paperwork isn't filled out properly and submitted with supporting documentation. If Iowa has inventory taxes (in some states this tax is lumped together with property taxes) then there's another set of paperwork to be filed. Then there's the town property tax, state business tax and payroll tax. There's a lot of taxes besides federal income tax to consider.

quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
quote:
I know there are parts of the country where Spanish is prevalent. I've been in North Miami in the past five years. I also know that speaking, reading and writing fluent English is a requirement to become a success in this country.
It always has been. I just want to keep it that way.
As AnglRdr points out, my comment quoted above is incorrect. It is possible to be successful in this country without speaking English. For example, there are still parts of New York City where Yiddish is the primary language.

quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
quote:
Just as a minor point, in New England where I live, the major illegal immigrant influx is the Irish. Somehow, I suspect these people would be more acceptable to you, since they're Northern European, speak fluent English, and don't have strange names.
You suspect wrong. All illegals are equally unacceptable to me. However, if you want to compare LEGAL immigrants who speak English to those who only speak Spanish, then yes, I have a preference for the people I can understand. BTW, how are Mexican names stranger than Irish ones? (Aodh Ruadh Ó Domhnaill is a good old fashioned Irish name.)
Most Irish, certainly in America, have names like Thomas Clancy or Michael O'Toole or Patrick Ryan. The number of Irish, even in Ireland, with strictly Gaelic names is minuscule.

--------------------
Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico

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