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Author Topic: Meth Makes Winter Deadly for Young Couple
Melendwyr
I Saw Three Shipments


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quote:
ETA: to add, crystal meth is highly addictive - oh, that's right, you don't believe in addiction.
He didn't say he didn't "believe" in addiction, he said that he doesn't accept viewing it as a disease.

Whether this poster is entitled to have a position in this debate is questionable. It's quite clear that you do not.

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zakor
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Yes, I am in the camp that says addiction is not a disease. This is purely a personal opinion, and I know that the Surgeon General takes a different opinion, but it is how I believe.
That silly surgeon general, what does he know?

Where's my ignore button?

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Giselle
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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You do realize that if you put everyone on ignore whose opinion is different from your own that this board will be pretty lonely don't you?


eta: I can see where he's coming from with calling bullsh*t on addiction being a disease. The only time I agree though is when someone uses it as an excuse to not get help.

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Sophia
Tic Tac Dough


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hmm... if only the human race was as responsible as you Malruhn.. the fact is, it's not, maybe you were responsible in your drug experiences, but you can't always apply the same ethics to every damn person in the world. people make mistakes, it happens, and whos the one whos deciding the difference between innocent recklessness and being so stupid you deserve to die? i mean, i guess my scope goes a little wilder then drugs=bad, people who do drugs=bad. my friend is addicted to meth, i guess she deserves to die too huh. im not the first to say she's the smartest person in the world, fact is she's a little weak minded and is one of those people who can get pushed into peer pressure pretty easy, and because she tried it once, shes now addicted and finds it EXTREMELY difficult to get off. see, her father deals and she has to live around it everyday. but i guess she gets her just desserts. and sure, she can make the "choice" to move out of her dad's house, start a completely new life with completely new friends, but at 17, that's not exatly an easy thing to do, much easier said than done. those kids who died had lives, feelings, and yes, even reasons for doing what they did, you can't just see the word "meth" and automatically decide they're miscreants and deserving of their deaths. but hey, i guess of you admit that your hard hearted, im probably just speaking out of my ass. oh well

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Dogwater
Happy Holly Days


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Wow, would you say this thread has been raised from the dead or was it merely comatose?
quote:
Originally posted by Sophia:
hmm... if only the human race was as responsible as you Malruhn.. the fact is, it's not, maybe you were responsible in your drug experiences, but you can't always apply the same ethics to every damn person in the world. people make mistakes, it happens, and whos the one whos deciding the difference between innocent recklessness and being so stupid you deserve to die? i mean, i guess my scope goes a little wilder then drugs=bad, people who do drugs=bad. my friend is addicted to meth, i guess she deserves to die too huh. im not the first to say she's the smartest person in the world, fact is she's a little weak minded and is one of those people who can get pushed into peer pressure pretty easy, and because she tried it once, shes now addicted and finds it EXTREMELY difficult to get off. see, her father deals and she has to live around it everyday. but i guess she gets her just desserts. and sure, she can make the "choice" to move out of her dad's house, start a completely new life with completely new friends, but at 17, that's not exatly an easy thing to do, much easier said than done. those kids who died had lives, feelings, and yes, even reasons for doing what they did, you can't just see the word "meth" and automatically decide they're miscreants and deserving of their deaths. but hey, i guess of you admit that your hard hearted, im probably just speaking out of my ass. oh well

If you re-read the posts, I think you'll find that Malruhn never said that people who do drugs, or engage in foreseeably dangerous activities deserve to die. He was arguing that those who do so can rightfully be afforded little sympathy over the outcomes.

I find that a valid sentiment. Valid does not mean, however, that you need to subscribe to that point-of-view. As one will notice as they travel throigh life, it is often that there are several view points, each of which can be well supported.

Oh, and by-the-by, I have two aquaintances who came from alcoholic households. Neither one picks up a drink (a legal and readily available substance) because they have made the desision that they don't want to go down the same road as their parent/parents. It is one thing to trace a user's path to self destruction for whatever clinical insight you may receive, but remember,at the end of the day, it is they who CHOOSE that path. I hope your friend can begin to make better choices. Perhaps you can even push her there. If I may be so bold...

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Chimera
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Sophia:
hmm... if only the human race was as responsible as you Malruhn.. the fact is, it's not, maybe you were responsible in your drug experiences, but you can't always apply the same ethics to every damn person in the world. people make mistakes, it happens, and whos the one whos deciding the difference between innocent recklessness and being so stupid you deserve to die? i mean, i guess my scope goes a little wilder then drugs=bad, people who do drugs=bad. my friend is addicted to meth, i guess she deserves to die too huh. im not the first to say she's the smartest person in the world, fact is she's a little weak minded and is one of those people who can get pushed into peer pressure pretty easy, and because she tried it once, shes now addicted and finds it EXTREMELY difficult to get off. see, her father deals and she has to live around it everyday. but i guess she gets her just desserts. and sure, she can make the "choice" to move out of her dad's house, start a completely new life with completely new friends, but at 17, that's not exatly an easy thing to do, much easier said than done. those kids who died had lives, feelings, and yes, even reasons for doing what they did, you can't just see the word "meth" and automatically decide they're miscreants and deserving of their deaths. but hey, i guess of you admit that your hard hearted, im probably just speaking out of my ass. oh well

Ok, let's say she's a minor and has bad influences that doesn't mean she's doomed. It has already been mentioned that bad influences don't necessarily result in a bad outcome. Some recognize the destruction it causes and learn from the bad examples in their lives. How any given indivdual acts is of their own choosing.

I don't know why she made the choice she did. I don't know how long she's been living in such an environment or how long she's been addicted or what might have lead her to originally make the choice to break the law to try the subtance. But the interesting thing is that she's now only 17, she's still a minor. Perhaps she did just make a stupid mistake (for whatever reason) and doesn't have the ability and/or support to get out of it. Although you claim to be a friend... what have you done for her? Have you refered her to rehab centres? Have you called child protective services to file complaints against the dad? Have you called the police about her illegal activities? Or, will you just stand by her grave and moan if she dies because of the activity because "there was nothing anyone could've done about it"?

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"The question for joining the protected forum for real magicians should be:

What is the use of women?"
Steve W. from JREF's 'This is no fun'

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Sophia
Tic Tac Dough


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oh, i know Malruhn has a good point, i just read their first couple of posts and got fired up about it, heh, but yeah, it's a valid arguemnt, and maybe in some situations id probably agree. it just bothered me that in they're (sorry, i havnt been on the boards for long enough to know genders!) first post (i think) they were calling those kids miscreants out of nowhere, i dont know, it just seemed to me the only basis for calling them miscreants was the fact that they were on meth, but my appologies, i tend to do that when i get "fired up" heh. and as for my friend, she's been on meth for about 2 and a half years now i think, she started when i moved away, so helping her is a bit harder now, but i talk to her about it and she now knows she made a mistake.

i dont know how many people here have actually partaken in drugs, it just seems to me that its easier to ask why these people try it once,when you havnt or have any desier to do so. even being told that it's dangerous, sometimes the so called "fun effects" win over. its just human nature in a way i think. eating lots of sugary foods are bad (though their affects may take a while, in the long run [and for some of us less fortunate people, in the short run] they do have very negative affects to our bodies and causes diseases that DO kill) but we all do it anyway because they're so damn good. so anyway, that's why she tried it, yeah, she was young, irresponsible and stupid, but we all are sometimes, right? just that some of us choose more harmful/stupid things than others.

but luckely, she wants to get out of it now. she looks aweful (soo skinny) and doesnt like what its done to her (even though it still feels good), so shes trying to work things out and move in with a friend who lives in another state, so im really hoping she works things out.

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Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someone's neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that thing?

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Missy_pooh1997
Cauliflower Ears


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Wow that was a long read. Let me just say that this reminds me of an expirience that I had in highschool 12th grade. There is an area in Il. called Garden of the Gods. They have camping and fishing and areas for hiking. Well, a girl in our senior class went there with some friends and basically dropped some acid and walked off a cliff!!!

At 17 I heard this and thought it was the funniest thing I had heard in a while(twisted I know). See my mom grew up with many family members addicted to alcohol so she never has taken a drink and was always very strict about not drinking or taking drugs. She beat it into our heads over and over so I've never touched the stuff.

It took me years to realize that what people should do and what they actually do are two totally different things. Do I think having an addict in your family makes you genetically more predetermined to be an addict? Yes,but I think maturity also plays a role in decision making and aparently these adults weren't very mature. It's sad they had to die so young, but they made the decision to involve thmeselves in risky behavior. They where not merely victims of circumstance.

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"People do it everyday, they talk to themselves...they see themselves as they'd like to be,they dont have the courage you have, to just run with it".

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Ann Catherine
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Sue Bee:
People make all sorts of mistakes, especially when they are young and foolish. The idea that these two got what they deserved just because they had taken drugs and then got into a situation where the outcome was tragic does not serve to prove any sort of karmic balance to the universe.

I fully agree. Some of the things every one of us have engaged in somewhere within our pasts could have produced tragic results...for someone, anyone. Whether it be speeding on the freeway, running a red light, drinking and driving - anything. These all have potentially fatal outcomes in some degree and can be compared full spectrum.
So I guess, that according to some, "we" (as in all, because we've ALL done something that could produce tragic results at some point) deserve whatever we get.
How about making a mistake, but never having the chance to realize, rectify, or learn from it? That's the real tragedy for those kids. They were shorted on life because they made a mistake and *none* of us are perfect.
We improve with age and experience which produces wisdom. Those kids never had the opportunity to gain any of these things, because of their mistake. They suffered for it nonetheless, and moreso than most of us do for ours.
Doesn't quite seem fair.

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Ann Catherine
The Red and the Green Stamps


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[/qb][/QUOTE]If you re-read the posts, I think you'll find that Malruhn never said that people who do drugs, or engage in foreseeably dangerous activities deserve to die. He was arguing that those who do so can rightfully be afforded little sympathy over the outcomes.

I totally disagree that people should not be afforded sympathy based on the outcome of an unwise choice.
This is totally individualistic, but to have little or no sympathy is rather barbaric and out of place in today's society.
We all make mistakes, but those affording others little sympathy are often those that when struck with tragedy cannot escape feeling sorry for themselves while simulataneously lacking the inner strength it takes to empathize, sympathize, and bear compassion for others. JMO-

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Ann Catherine
The Red and the Green Stamps


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I think maturity also plays a role in decision making and aparently these adults weren't very mature. It's sad they had to die so young, but they made the decision to involve thmeselves in risky behavior. They where not merely victims of circumstance. [/QB][/QUOTE]
It's a thin line to walk, and those of all positions take the stroll...With age, comes exposure, and we don't always make the "right" choice when faced with options.

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Ghost on Toast
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Well, just my two-penneth but people make mistakes. Kids do drugs, it happens. It just happened here that circumstances combined and they died.

I don't think condemning them is helpful, they had families and were loved but of course they knew the risks.

I get the impression they were new users? Sometimes one hit is all it takes. I'm speaking here as the partner of a man who took cocaine on one night and hasn't been the same ever since. These things can trigger other things, in my partners case panic attacks and depression.

Now I'm having pretty much the worst time of my life worrying that that knock on the door is the cops telling me he's topped himself. Do I think he was an idiot for doing it? Yes. Do I want ot punch him? Yes. But what will that serve?

I think we need a little more compassion people.

Oh and Dogwater...
quote:
I would even go so far as to say that we have that same view (albeit very un-PC)about AIDS victims.

Nitpicking but only rather stupid people would have that view about AIDS victime considering there are a number of ways to catch HIV and many do not involve any stupidity on the victims part (blood transfusion, infected by partner, rape etc)

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
This is the first time the term "cancer" has been used for these two. I have seen nothing about them being "afflicted by the cancer" in any of the news reports.

And that is taking the cowards way out.

Yes, I am in the camp that says cancer is not a disease. This is purely a personal opinion, and I know that the Surgeon General takes a different opinion, but it is how I believe.

Yes, I know that cancer is a phenominally powerful force - strong enough to waylay many, many people. But, where I find my snopes gene kicking in (that would be the strongly skeptical gene!) is that many people use this as a cop out. They use (insert form of tobacco of choice), and don't WANT to put forth ANY effort to kick it, so they fall back to the, "It isn't my fault - it is a DISEASE!!" argument.

>>>EDITED TO REMOVE SOME UNWARRANTED SNARKINESS<<<< ...therefore it is laziness. Yup - I said it. But please - this is an argument for the Rantidotes page...

These kids did something very stupid - and got caught. I will say that I agree with DemonWolf wholeheartedly - that sometimes the punishments don't fit the crime - but I feel that in this case it did.

Sub-Contractor, it is in cases where the punishment does not fit the crime that I feel sympathy is warranted.

Case in point: Last month during the Superbowl here in Jacksonville, two people died of lung cancer. The incident was completely avoidable - smoking over 2 packs a day for 30 years. One of the guys had a really bad cough for the last 15 of it - he should have known to stop smoking. The other person died of emphysema.

The other person died of long-term exposure to second-hand smoke. I have much sympathy for the second person... and absolutely none for the first.

I did not even look for the people. The risks he took were absurd, completely voluntary, and not warranted. In my mind, he deserved the punishment he received. Oh, what the heck, they both did.



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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Pick an argument that I actually made, please. This is a very weak strawman at best. Cancer has diverse causes - and can even be spontaneous - addictions must be acted upon to get them going. There has never been a case of someone developing an addiction to heroin that had never tried heroin before, but cancers can strike anyone without precursory action by the victem.

Try again.

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Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
Pick an argument that I actually made, please. This is a very weak strawman at best. Cancer has diverse causes - and can even be spontaneous - addictions must be acted upon to get them going. There has never been a case of someone developing an addiction to heroin that had never tried heroin before, but cancers can strike anyone without precursory action by the victem.

Try again.

Actually, heroin addiction *can* happen from just doing it once. Or cigarette addiction, which is why I made the parallel. I honestly thought you'd say "yep, agree with that too" when I got done with this because it's really not far off from your earlier statements (well, it's word for word, but you get the idea).

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Sorry, but you said "cancer" - not ciggie addiction. I DO agree with the addiction part - but NOT the cancer. Cancer can be spontaneous - not addiction - as for that you have to do something first.

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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Dogwater
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Ghost on Toast:

Oh and Dogwater...
quote:
I would even go so far as to say that we have that same view (albeit very un-PC)about AIDS victims.

Nitpicking but only rather stupid people would have that view about AIDS victime considering there are a number of ways to catch HIV and many do not involve any stupidity on the victims part (blood transfusion, infected by partner, rape etc)
I think if you read my post as a whole rather than that single line
quote:
If I may be so bold as to speak for others, I would venture a guess that there is inherently less compassion for those whose poor fates are brought on due to alcohol, (other)drugs, smoking, and even obesity. In general, the feeling can be summed up in that '"they brought it upon themselves (by engaging in risky behavior)". I would even go so far as to say that we have that same view (albeit very un-PC)about AIDS victims.

To an extent, those feelings have merit. One chooses to smoke, one chooses risky sexual behavior or takes drugs, or drinks, or eats a whole apple pie, etc, etc. But, on the other hand, as AliBaba said, for some, these same behaviors that many partake in with little or no consequence, lead to addiction for others. Still, we have a vague (or not-so-vague in some cases)feeling that it was "all their fault", even when the person is in the grips of an addiction.

I, too, am guilty of those thoughts. In fact, when I first heard the story, I would have sided with Malruhn , in that 'They got what they deserved". But, that was a knee-jerk reaction (on my part, Malruhn explained himself thoughtfully, and I gather his opinion stands. I can respect that in so much as he gave a though-out explination of his opinion)on my part, and further thought was that indeed, NO, that is a most brutal outcome. I will say again what I said previous, that while a poor outcome may be predicted from drug use, DESERVE is a strong statement to make. More so in this particular situation. They were not risking others by driving around, they did not neglect a child, they did not rob somebody, wherein in these circumstances I could very well wish ill upon them. No, instead they were just some young people experimenting and their deaths were tragic.

you will find that I was refering to the sense of how I think people (in general) feel/respond to these particular maladies/eventualities. True, there are other ways that people get AIDS/HIV or lung cancer or are destined to obesity by metabolic circumstances. In these cases we (people in general) afford different sympathies and really do feel "OH my, now THAT'S tragic".


However, just as people have pejudices about other people(no matter how they try to hide them deep down in the pit of their soul), they have pre-concived notions of how particular diseases are contracted. Really, how many people get lung cancer who didn't smoke? How many obese people watch their diets (for real)and excersise? How many people who contract HIV didn't involve themselves in risky sexual behavior. Some to be sure, but how often does some effect peoples' view of the world?

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As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

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Ghost on Toast
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
However, just as people have pejudices about other people(no matter how they try to hide them deep down in the pit of their soul), they have pre-concived notions of how particular diseases are contracted. Really, how many people get lung cancer who didn't smoke? How many obese people watch their diets (for real)and excersise? How many people who contract HIV didn't involve themselves in risky sexual behavior. Some to be sure, but how often does some effect peoples' view of the world?
I see your point but that's the kind of pre-concived prejudice I hate. I always find it is better to be open minded about these things rather than condemn first then ask later. I'm not accusing you of doing so just 'Joe Public'

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PhiloPharynx
I Saw Three Shipments


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Now to throw a little fuel on the sympathy fire. If somebody who does drugs and dies does not deserve sympathy, what about a woman who dresses provocatively and gets drunk at a frat party and winds up raped?
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unklesamta
Deck the Malls


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Sorry to come in so late, but I think a definition of terms is needed. Reasonable outcome seems to have been just accepeted as Meth=dumb walk in blizzard. However I would say the overwhelming majority of people who have used meth have had little to no adverse side effects. So to me the reasonable outcome would be meth=harmless good time as thats what is equals in the majority ofuses. Same with sky-diving, really how big a "risk" is it? Isn't the reason we here about skydiving deaths is because they rarely happen? So again the sky diver has the reasonable outcome of survival. I would posit flying on a plane would constitute more risky behavior than jumping out of one percentage-wise. As would driving to the PTA meeting as was mentioned earlier. I bet (no cite, sorry, no time) more people die percentage-wise in random car accidents than do doing meth. So I feel as though most people who pass from accidents deserve compassion, I think people who die o purpose deserve compassion, and i believe Hitler deserves compassion...what a sad life he must have led...far be it from me to put myself in the place of judgement.

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The less you know, the more you believe. -Bono

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Astra
The "Was on Sale" Song


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SO late? Check the dates, the thread's been dead for a year.

Holy thread necromancy, Batman!

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This has been yet another... USELESS POST.

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daisy747
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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I'm glad to see some compassion here, but it scares me that some people are so calaus. [Mad] I'm an addiction counselor, and I can say with complete certainty that Meth is one of the most addicting drugs available on the streets. I don't know if these kids were addicted, but I do know (from the article) that they are dead. When I think of all the crap that I did in my early 20's, I don't know how I survived. Lets be honest people, we all do stupid things when we are young and we think that we are invincable. Humanity means compassion, and I think that is somewhat lacking here (at least from some people, and you know who you are).
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notorious fluffy g
I Saw Three Shipments


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this story was used as the main cautionary tale on a national geographic channel show on meth. it also featured various jailbirds lamenting their sorry state. you dont find out hornickle and her boyfriend actually die till the end of the show.

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* Sir John Lubbock

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Katikate
Deck the Malls


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The 911 record is also used as a PSA here in the South. It's really creepy. You can tell they are terrified and completely strung out, and aware they are dying.

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“You want to know what marriage is really like? You wake up she's there. You come back from work she's there. You fall asleep she's there…I know that sounds like a bad thing. But, it's not. Not if it's the right person.” ~Raymond Barone

Posts: 334 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
TrishDaDish
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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The audio shook me up a little, as the boyfriend sounded just like my brother. That matter of fact way of talking during the crisis to the dispatcher and his "What's wrong, honey?" type comments to his girlfriend, it's exactly the way my brother talks. So I think it creeped me out a little for different reasons. (I guess the idea that if my brother got wasted like that and his wife did too, that that would most likely be the same way he'd act during the last hours of his life. Freaks me out a little. [Frown] )

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I would prefer not to.
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Posts: 4789 | From: Rhode Island | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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