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Sub-Contractor
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Malruhn-

Peace.
We don't agree and it's probably not going to change.

At least we both feel sorry for the pain of the families and rescue workers who might be feeling so guilty for not finding or stopping the pair.

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nerdymcnerd
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
Yes, I am in the camp that says addiction is not a disease. This is purely a personal opinion, and I know that the Surgeon General takes a different opinion, but it is how I believe.


Malruhn, I have to ask, do you think you just, know better than the Surgeon General? I find your remark about not recognizing addiction as a disease - that it's mere laziness, quite repulsive.

ETA: to add, crystal meth is highly addictive - oh, that's right, you don't believe in addiction.

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Skunks hate the sound of industry.

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by kmcm wont kiss trees:
If you choose to do drugs, you deserve whatever the outcome is. I refuse to believe in the United States that two 20 year olds had no idea that taking meth was going to mess them up somehow.
Life is about choices, if you choose to do something stupid, illegal, and potentially deadly, you deal with the consequences.

If they had been 21 and drunk, would you feel differently?

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Wouldn't "Don't go walking in a blizzard, it might kill you" have been better advice in this case than "Don't do drugs, they fuck you up"?
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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We can't overlook the recent research in adolescent brain functioning which indicates that they are prone to risk taking behavior.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by nerdymcnerd:
crystal meth is highly addictive - oh, that's right, you don't believe in addiction.

That's not quite fair, nerdy. He never said he didn't believe in addiction, only that he didn't believe addiction is a disease.

I think addictions most likely are diseases, in that some people have a biological propensity to become addicted and some don't. Otherwise why would things like alcoholism run in families, like breast cancer (to use two examples from my own family)?

OTOH, if you are diagnosed with a disease and you refuse to get treatment for it, you must then accept the consequences of your refusal. It happens all the time, which is why we have DNR orders. When Ann Landers was diagnosed with multiple myeloma at age 83, for instance, she chose to refuse treatment, knowing it would kill her. I have no problem with that; it was her choice. She evaluated the consequences of her choices (her own death and the effect that would have on her friends and family) and accepted responsibility for them.

When an addict refuses treatment for hir disease, s/he must equally accept responsibility for the consequences of hir refusal. In such a case, however, s/he cannot go around moaning "boo hoo, poor me, I have a disease" and expecting sympathy from me when s/he refuses to treat hirself.

I don't know whether these two people were addicts or just unlucky, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt. Besides, they no longer care whether I feel sorry for them or not; but their families do, and their families are (presumably) innocent here.

Four Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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Mickey Blue
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Richard W:
Wouldn't "Don't go walking in a blizzard, it might kill you" have been better advice in this case than "Don't do drugs, they fuck you up"?

Well, once you are under the influance alot of other advice goes out the window. I know people who have driven drunk that wouldn't normally because hey, when your drunk you dont' make the best decisions. In fact, I am extremely against drunk driving, I have lost friends to it (both being hit by a drunk) and as an EMT have seent eh damage they do (both to property and much more importantly to human life). However I have, once, driven drunk. Must like the other examples, I was drunk, and didn't really think about it when I got in the car. Since then, if I think I'm potentially gonna drink alot, I give my keys to somebody who will be sober or I dont drive to the party/bar/whatever.

I have no sympathy for drunk drivers, they choose to do something that puts themselves and others at risk, I was luckey and wont make the mistake again, but had I been not so luckey then who knows..


Now in this case granted they realy weren't putting others at risk, however by taking the drug they are accepting hte consequences. I guess my stance is that while I dont view it as a punishment, and its an unfortunate thing that happened, I just can't feel "that" badly for them as they knew what they were getting in to. If I was somehow offered the divine choice of letting them live or die obviously I"d choose live, but when you take certain risks in life you accept the potential consequences.

I guess if you were to make a scale I'd say I have faaaar less sympathy for drunk drivers who kick the bucket then these folks (in some ways I'm happy a drunk died without killing somebody else, assuming he/she had to crash the car).

As for addiction.. I dunno, up in the air on that. I think its like welfare (go with me on this one). There are no doubt many people who legitimatly need welfare, who dont abuse it and get off it as soon as they can but without it may never have pulled themselves out. Just like there are many people who are legitamatly addicted to something and, without help, cannot get off of it (even if they want to). However, the people you hear about are the ones abusing welfare, the ones who are making no attempt to break the cycle. Just like the ones you hear about are the ones who use addiction as a crutch to do whatever they want and void themselves of responsibility for their actions.

Ultimatly, you can break addiction if your strong enough. Its not impossible, people do it all the time. However its not easy either, and it has to be recognized that some people are stronger then others and need help.

Now, that said, I havn't heard anywehre that these two were addicted yet (in the sense that they "needed" the drug to function) and I have less sympathy for addicts that dont seek help (even if they say they are addicted). Those are the ones who have no problem doing what they are doing and just fall back on the old "its a disease" when they are in trouble.


Thats my long and short view on the subject. Its a shame they couldn't have lived through the ordeal, but they went into drug use knowing of the consequences.

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"All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do"

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties in the arborvitae:
I don't know whether these two people were addicts or just unlucky, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

For all we know, these kids could have been first time users, right?

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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nerdymcnerd
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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True 4Kitties, I wasn't being fair.

And you are correct - we fight the battles we choose to fight and those we don't, well, we have to face the consequences.

The problem with addiction is that the disease makes you not want to fight it. It's part of the disease. Don't we, those without addiction, have the responsability to help them?

I do understand there has to be a line drawn where we have to allow for our own lives to take precedence.

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Skunks hate the sound of industry.

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RubyMoon
Deck the Malls


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"and both tested positive for meth at levels that indicate they had taken the drug some two to three days before they called 911."

So if they took meth 2 to 3 days before that night, why were they still hallucinating.?

And then later in the story they say that the woman may have taken meth for the first time at the new years eve party they were at earlier. Someone should have proof read that article before it was published.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't meth the stuff we used to call "crank" back in the 60's. Yes that stuff was dangerous, yes it was addictive, but it was not in my experience a halucinagenic.

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Gale
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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Many years ago before the present popularity of crystal meth, my husband & I did the stuff regularly. I walked away from it with little physical withdrawl. My husband went absolutely bat-shit insane. He became abusive. He was paranoid. He lied. He stole. He refused to work. After he threatened to kill me in car-bomb attack on a public official on our fifth wedding anniversary, I decided leaving him might just save my life.

I lost my stepsons, the world's best mother in law, my home, my car, and my credit. I failed grad school, I lost my job and had to return to delivering pizza and waiting tables. Everywhere I turned, things went wrong, wrong, wrong. At one point I remember wishing a bus would run me over and end it all.

That was about 15 years ago. I wouldn't touch the stuff with a barge pole. The ex? Last seen screaming at his car which had stopped on the street. Friend reported seeing him carrying on clearly in a methed up state. His mother and sons have no clue where he is. I've heard he spent some time in prison.

There's not much point to this except to say thank goodness in my case I encountered compassion more than judgement. A life is a life is a life is a life. I think I'd have a little trouble sleeping at night if I couldn't find sympathy in myself for someone who got so lost so young.

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CherryQueen
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Speaking as a former girlfriend of an extreme meth junkie, I feel qualified to answer this. Crystal meth itself is not hallucinogenic, but hallucinations are possible when you're coming down. They're from the sleep deprivation. My ex used to see "the shadow people" when he was coming down, because when he had some meth, he'd be up for about 3 or 4 days straight, on average. If these two had been up for 48-72 hours straight, which is likely at least for the girl if it was her first time, I'm not at all surprised they were hallucinating.

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"Hilariously, he pronounces "Sauron" as "Sore-on", which sounds like something you apply directly to facial herpes."--theagonybooth.com

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by nerdymcnerd:
The problem with addiction is that the disease makes you not want to fight it. It's part of the disease. Don't we, those without addiction, have the responsability to help them?

I do understand there has to be a line drawn where we have to allow for our own lives to take precedence.

I think there may be a temptation to just not fight it no matter what the disease. There are many illnesses that mess with your head other than addiction. I think those of us who are not ill do have the obligation to make treatment available for anyone who is. But where to draw the line for self-preservation is a difficult question. It is my opinion that many people draw the line too soon, as in "I don't want to pay for other sick people with my tax money, whatever their illness." Then there are the folks who don't draw it at all: "It doesn't matter how many times someone relapses, we always have to give hir another chance."

I am, of course, influenced by personal experience in this. Yes, I think addiction is a disease; but no, I don't think that addiction warrants the same sort of limitless treatment as, say, a child with leukemia or a 45-year-old with ALS. I understand that this makes me a hypocrite, but my hypocrisy is part of my drawing a line for my own self-preservation. I feel I cannot allow myself to lose my compassion for those who are suffering from any disease; but I also know that living within the circle of influence of an addict is enough to exhaust all compassion, other emotional resources, fianancial resources, etc. with decreasing odds of recovery on the other end.

Many, many people have reached the point in treating their illnesses where the costs outweigh the potential benefits, where they say "enough is enough" and surrender (as did Ann Landers). It breaks my heart to even imagine having to make that decision on behalf of my child or parent. It broke my heart to make that decision regarding my ex-husband. But it does eventually come down to self-preservation, both personally and on a larger, social scale.

It's a difficult question for me.

Four Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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nerdymcnerd
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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We're on the same page Four Kitties.

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Skunks hate the sound of industry.

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InfraPurple
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties in the arborvitae:
I don't know whether these two people were addicts or just unlucky, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

For all we know, these kids could have been first time users, right?
I saw about half of this on Primetime last Friday, but from my understanding of the story the b/f was an addict, and the g/f was using it for the first time. I didn't hear the reasons why, if any were given, as to why it was her first time.

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While I wasn't falling down or anything, gravity and I did have an interesting relationship for a short time. - Purple Iguana

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AliBaba
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Alright, since I believe I was the first person to mention the word "addict", please allow me to clarify what I was attempting (poorly) to say.

I didn't mean to say that I had any reason to think that either or both these kids were, technically, "addicted" to meth. I used the term in my post to make a point about the lack of compassion being displayed by many of the posters to this thread. Whether either of these kids was or was not an 'addict', per se, is irrelevant, and I should not have muddied up the waters by adding that term.

But since that door has been opened, allow me to step through. I happen to believe that some of us are born addicts - meaning we have whatever defects in place, combined with the physical allergy/mental obsession that causes addictive behavior; all we need is to throw the junkie/drunkie switch by adding alcohol, or whatever our drug of choice is.

This would certainly explain why some people become alcoholics and some don't; why some people are hooked from the first hit of whatever drug, and others can seem to walk away from it at will.

That is not to say that the addict/alcoholic has a built-in excuse, nor do I think we should escape punishment for harm we cause others when high or drunk. Also, yes, in order for us to get the help we need with our drinking or drug problem, we must first put down the drink or the drug.

In other words, we must take responsibility for our recovery. It isn't about will power - do you have any idea how much will power it takes to keep fueling the very disease that is killing you? How much will power it takes to score when you have no money? Hell, we have an abundance of will power. What we don't have (we don't believe) is any choice in the matter. If we could quit drinking or drugging on our own, believe me, we would.

I brought this up only as an illustration of possible scenarios as to why an otherwise sensible person would do something that they know might cause them harm - often they don't feel they have a choice. Some times, that might be due to addiction. Other times, it might be due to something like peer-pressure.

Having said all that, I would like to again point out what we should all already know; 20-year olds do stupid things sometimes. If there is any person here over the age of 20 who has never done anything stupid, I'd really like to hear from them.

However, doing something stupid, I don't believe, automatically earns a death sentence. If it did, trust me, we wouldn't have any over-population. Hell, I don't think there'd be any population, period.

Okay, didn't mean to be so windy, just trying to clarify the point I was trying to make. You're all entitled to your opinion.

Ali "no matter how wrong you are" Baba

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CherryQueen
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Turner727:
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties in the arborvitae:
I don't know whether these two people were addicts or just unlucky, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

For all we know, these kids could have been first time users, right?
I saw about half of this on Primetime last Friday, but from my understanding of the story the b/f was an addict, and the g/f was using it for the first time. I didn't hear the reasons why, if any were given, as to why it was her first time.
There doesn't need to be a "reason". But here's a likely scenario: she did it to be closer to him. I know when I was with my ex I thought about trying meth SEVERAL times simply because it was lonely to go home and go to bed alone again simply because I couldn't "hang" with the folks who had been doing it because I got sleepy and they didn't. I wanted to be fun, I wanted to be the "cool" girlfriend, and most of all, I wanted to be with my guy. And if I didn't use, I couldn't. To this day I don't know how I managed to avoid trying it, but I'm glad that I did.

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"Hilariously, he pronounces "Sauron" as "Sore-on", which sounds like something you apply directly to facial herpes."--theagonybooth.com

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Dogwater
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by AliBaba:
Alright, since I believe I was the first person to mention the word "addict", please allow me to clarify what I was attempting (poorly) to say.

I didn't mean to say that I had any reason to think that either or both these kids were, technically, "addicted" to meth. I used the term in my post to make a point about the lack of compassion being displayed by many of the posters to this thread. Whether either of these kids was or was not an 'addict', per se, is irrelevant, and I should not have muddied up the waters by adding that term.

But since that door has been opened, allow me to step through. I happen to believe that some of us are born addicts - meaning we have whatever defects in place, combined with the physical allergy/mental obsession that causes addictive behavior; all we need is to throw the junkie/drunkie switch by adding alcohol, or whatever our drug of choice is.

This would certainly explain why some people become alcoholics and some don't; why some people are hooked from the first hit of whatever drug, and others can seem to walk away from it at will.

That is not to say that the addict/alcoholic has a built-in excuse, nor do I think we should escape punishment for harm we cause others when high or drunk. Also, yes, in order for us to get the help we need with our drinking or drug problem, we must first put down the drink or the drug.

In other words, we must take responsibility for our recovery. It isn't about will power - do you have any idea how much will power it takes to keep fueling the very disease that is killing you? How much will power it takes to score when you have no money? Hell, we have an abundance of will power. What we don't have (we don't believe) is any choice in the matter. If we could quit drinking or drugging on our own, believe me, we would.

I brought this up only as an illustration of possible scenarios as to why an otherwise sensible person would do something that they know might cause them harm - often they don't feel they have a choice. Some times, that might be due to addiction. Other times, it might be due to something like peer-pressure.

Having said all that, I would like to again point out what we should all already know; 20-year olds do stupid things sometimes. If there is any person here over the age of 20 who has never done anything stupid, I'd really like to hear from them.

However, doing something stupid, I don't believe, automatically earns a death sentence. If it did, trust me, we wouldn't have any over-population. Hell, I don't think there'd be any population, period.

Okay, didn't mean to be so windy, just trying to clarify the point I was trying to make. You're all entitled to your opinion.

Ali "no matter how wrong you are" Baba

AliBaba, that is such a concise and intelligent portrayal of some facets of addiction and addicts.

I am of the same mind that some people have an 'addictive personality' for lack of a better term. That said, and as you pointed out, we all have something to overcome. Be it a physical imparment, a learning disability, the 'wrong' color skin, etc etc. Them's the facts of life. Some are harder to live with and get past than others, granted. But, to use them as an excuse to give up is to waste one's life.

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As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

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InfraPurple
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by CherryQueen]There doesn't need to be a "reason". But here's a likely scenario: she did it to be closer to him. I know when I was with my ex I thought about trying meth SEVERAL times simply because it was lonely to go home and go to bed alone again simply because I couldn't "hang" with the folks who had been doing it because I got sleepy and they didn't. I wanted to be fun, I wanted to be the "cool" girlfriend, and most of all, I wanted to be with my guy. And if I didn't use, I couldn't. To this day I don't know how I managed to avoid trying it, but I'm glad that I did.
Good points. I can certainly see that happening in this case. I can also see her finally caving to peer pressure from her b/f. It's just too bad that in this instance it led to her death.

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While I wasn't falling down or anything, gravity and I did have an interesting relationship for a short time. - Purple Iguana

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Winged Monkey
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After watching the (terribly exploitive and creepy) video of this on ABC I wondered the following

A) Meth doesn't usually make one hallucinate that much, does it? It make people paranoid - but seeing things beside lights/vague shadows here and there I doubt - it isn't blotter acid.

B) Does exposure and panic make people hallucinate/get lost in blizzards/start making no sense?

What Im saying I guess is that from the phone conversations they played on the ABC stuff except for the initial rambling about cars and ethnic cult members I can easily see how this could have been the result of a series of bad decisions not related to meth use (aggravated by perhaps, but not necessarily caused by).

1) Drive a few hundred miles in a blizzard
2) Leave a car crash in a blizzard to look for help

I feel like the meth use was a secondary aspect of a (fairly run of the mill) death by exposure story that is being pushed because it makes the whole thing more exciting and makes the listeners feel less ghoulish about hearing these peoples last minutes on recorded 9-11 calls one can pass judgment on the stupid drug users (stern or lenient) and not simply on the stupid blizzard drivers.


-Winged Monkey

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CherryQueen
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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When you're coming down from meth, you can hallucinate BADLY from lack of sleep. What my ex called the "shadow people", he wasn't seeing shadows, he was seeing people who lived in the shadows. He described them to me as "evil little people who want to hurt us", and said that they whispered to him. They's go away after he got about a days worth of sleep. Plus, drugs affect everyone differently. Even blotter acid doesn't make everyone hallucinate. When I tried it, I didn't SEE anything.... but I laughed like a hyena. Everything was funny.

--------------------
"Hilariously, he pronounces "Sauron" as "Sore-on", which sounds like something you apply directly to facial herpes."--theagonybooth.com

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Pogue Ma-humbug
Happy Christmas (Malls are Open)


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quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
Yes, I am in the camp that says addiction is not a disease.

Then, quite simply, you are in the idiot camp who doesn't know what it's talking about and has no inclination to learn.
quote:
They use (insert drug of choice), and don't WANT to put forth ANY effort to kick it, so they fall back to the, "It isn't my fault - it is a DISEASE!!" argument.
Once again, read the book I recommended. Perhaps you'll learn something.

Pogue

--------------------
Let's drink to the causes in your life:
Your family, your friends, the union, your wife.

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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May be slightly snarky in return?

Repeat after me, please.

A. nec. dote.

This is one woman who was addicted - albeit horribly. She also paid the ultimate price for this addiction.

My frequently picked nit with the addiction/disease argument is that it is used by the weaker willed as nothing more than a cop-out. Yes, I know that there are some who do everything they can to beat their demons - and fail... but there are also those who do nothing - and admit it - and then fall back on the "But I got a disease, so it isn't my fault!"

There are way tooo many people that fall into this last category. Then, of course, you have to start falling into the trap of "What constitutes a REAL addiction" argument. I spend some ten plus hours on the computer a day between my work and my leisure time... can I start claiming an addiction/disease? Gimme a break!! If I WANTED to put forth the effort, I could curtail my after work internet use. I make a conscious decision not to even try.

I have known too many people who are in this same boat - but they claim that they are "addicted".

And before you go and say, "Oh, that is just anecdotal info!" let me go on to say that, yes, it may well be - but it is enough to show me a legitimate TREND that shows at least ME that the decision that "all addictions are diseases" is wrong.

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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IMHO Malruhn you're confusing an addiction with a habit. Addiction is one of those words that's tossed around rather casually these days, diminishing its true import.

A habit can be broken, such as 10 hours per day of internet use or biting one's fingernails. There may be psychological or emotional pangs, some ill-temper, but that's it.

An addiction is a habit with physical withdrawal symptoms. DT's, for instance. Hallucinations. Other psychoses. Drastic drops or increases in blood pressure. These are just a few of the more pleasant side effects of withdrawal.

If these things happen to you whenever you go offline, seek professional help. I think you (in your hypothetical) have a habit, perhaps even a compulsion, but not an addiction.

Four Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
AliBaba
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Once again, Kitties, good job. I was just getting ready to post in response to Malruhn, with an explanation of the difference between an addiction vs. a habit, but you nailed it first.

Malruhn, I see the point you're trying to make but I think you may be missing a larger one. Just because some people misuse, or overuse, a term, it doesn't mean that the term itself is spurious.

For instance, a kid's mom won't let him watch TV until after his homework is done. He calls that "child abuse". Does his misuse of the term mean that there is no such thing as child abuse? Rather a silly question, isn't it?

To say that you don't accept that addiction is a disease is like saying you don't accept that malaria is a disease, because the people that went to warm climates and let themselves be bitten by mosquitoes were just asking for it.

Something isn't referred to as a disease because of the cause, but because of the effect.

May I humbly suggest you read the following: The Doctor's Opinion.

Not trying to shove anything down your throat, nor to violate any of AA's fine traditions. But it may well benefit you, or someone close to you, in the future, to understand that addiction is a disease, not a moral failing.

That is not to say that some of us who suffer from the disease don't also have some greivous moral failings - I do, and must continue to battle them. Including one of my worst ones - hijacking threads.

Peace.

Ali "Normal people...and the rest of us" Baba

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by AliBaba:
Once again, Kitties, good job. I was just getting ready to post in response to Malruhn, with an explanation of the difference between an addiction vs. a habit, but you nailed it first.

Yeah, well, unfortunately I have a lot of first-hand experience with an addict. [Frown]

My defense of addiction as a disease now on the record, I must reiterate that anyone who has a disease and repeatedly refuses treatment for that disease may be able to say "I have a disease" but may not use it as an excuse to avoid resonsibility for the consequences of refusing treatment.

Four Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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I'mNotDedalus
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Has anyone else listened to the 911 tapes that are available on the OP's link? Or read the full transcripts?

...I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight, after listening. I guess I listened/read, in the first place, to see if it was at all possible to remain objective, to only hear the voice of an "addict." But those screams and cries... If you choose to listen/read, I am strongly warning you that it is horribly difficult to bear witness (it was for me, anyway).

Those who wish to retain their "hard-hearted" refusal to forgive those two kids, who wish to condemn them or deny them sympathy for their mistakes, I'd ask you to listen to those tapes and see if your logic still holds true.

Edited for clarification

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The salty fragrance of LEau DImNotDedalus - made entirely of and entirely for sea turtles.

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Dedalus, I guess I am still going to hell.

I listened - then I read every last word.

The only pity I have is for the dispatchers and parents.

Sorry.

And as to the difference between a habit and an addiction/disease: perhaps I do use the term a bit lightly - but I don't see much difference between them. One has good press - the other doesn't.

Caffiene - is that a habit or addiction?
Pot - "?
Sex - "?
Heroin - "?
Computer use - "?

Depending upon how the viewer wants to look at it - any of those can be either.

You want physical withdrawal? Ask my beloved bride what happens when she doesn't get her Pepsi... headaches, nausea, shakes - just like her father and alcohol.

Do we split hairs about how much of a habit is an addiction? Since "addiction" has legal ramifications, it almost sounds like the argument about "How much blood makes you Black". Okay, your heroin addiction is bad enough, but this guy's crack habit is just isn't bad enough to qualify! Try getting sympathy elsewhere...

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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I'mNotDedalus
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
Dedalus, I guess I am still going to hell.

Honestly, I didn't mean to put a religious spin on this (I can't tell if your comment is being sarcastic). I'm not a religious person, so it's difficult to twist and praise. But, still honestly, I guess I'm just keener on the concept of forgiveness.

quote:
I listened - then I read every last word. The only pity I have is for the dispatchers and parents.

[snip]

Okay, your heroin addiction is bad enough, but this guy's crack habit is just isn't bad enough to qualify! Try getting sympathy elsewhere...

Well, these two kids are dead, so they're not really pleading for anyone's sympathy, not anymore. But why would you grant pity/sympathy to the dispatchers? Didn't they attempt to offer the same to the very people you feel should have been denied pity/sympathy in the first place? Im seeing a conflict of interests here.

Where is the purpose in refusing sympathy, notably with "drug addicts"? What kind of expenditure does it require of you to offer the slightest sympathy? Malruhn, I'm really not trying to deride you: I'm just trying to understand, I suppose, your definition of sympathy.

Edited for clarification

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The salty fragrance of LEau DImNotDedalus - made entirely of and entirely for sea turtles.

Posts: 1983 | From: Chicagoland, IL | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Sorry - I REALLY have to stop posting here when very tired...

The religious reference was mine - just to signify that it was my feeling that you would condemn me for feeling no sympathy.

The pity for the dispatchers is because they were trying their best to save somebody's life and couldn't - kinda like the firefighter climbing the scaffolding to rescue a kid... but at the last instant the kid slips to his doom. These dispatchers will carry the horrors of this "failure" for the rest of their lives. It is for this that I pity them.

My justification for reserving sympathy for those who I deem "deserve" it, I thought, had been explained on page one. Nobody forced them to take the drugs the FIRST time - and, in the HUGE majority of cases a one-time use does not lead to a full fledged "addiction" but a "habit"... something that they either "want" to do again or that they are unwilling to put forth the effort to NOT do.

In my mind, this means that their actions were voluntary. A voluntary action that has dire results - in my mind - does not deserve pity. If their actions were accidental or unavoidable, THEN I would feel sorry for these two.

If the end results are foreseeable as a possible likely outcome - then I feel no pangs for those who pay the price for these outcomes.

A woman who is 9 months preggers and is killed with the fetus cut out deserves pity - as that was not a likely outcome for their actions (doing osh osh to catch the baby disease in the first place). A man playing Russian Roulette does not deserve sympathy - as he has a 16% chance of ventilating his gray matter with each pull of the trigger... it is foreseeable.

Am I making sense? My opinion on this is not knee-jerk, as I have thought about this long and hard.

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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I'mNotDedalus
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
The religious reference was mine - just to signify that it was my feeling that you would condemn me for feeling no sympathy.

Definitely no "condemnation" on my end, Malruhn. Just frustrated confusion in trying to understand your motives/opinion. And I in no way assumed that your position was "knee-jerk."

quote:
The pity for the dispatchers is because they were trying their best to save somebody's life and couldn't - kinda like the firefighter climbing the scaffolding to rescue a kid... but at the last instant the kid slips to his doom. These dispatchers will carry the horrors of this "failure" for the rest of their lives. It is for this that I pity them.

[snip]

In my mind, this means that their actions were voluntary. A voluntary action that has dire results - in my mind - does not deserve pity. If their actions were accidental or unavoidable, THEN I would feel sorry for these two.

I still don't understand you--"a voluntary action that has dire results does not deserve pity"? Does this apply in every situation, in your mind? Is this a hyperbole: The dispatchers were "voluntarily" attempting to save these kids, an action on their part that concluded with "dire results." Thus, the dispatchers deserve no pity.

quote:
My justification for reserving sympathy for those who I deem "deserve" it, I thought, had been explained on page one.
But what places anyone in a privileged position to grant and deny sympathy? Is it that simply because you haven't made such mistakes in your own life (and I don't know if you have or not), that one had a stronger upbringing or was able to develop firmer ethics or took less risks that, indeed, had dangerous "likely outcomes"? Is this all that is required to judge another--"Well, I never did such a thing/did that differently during my own life! You expect me to feel sorry for you?"

And concerning mistakes made with "foreseeable results": foreseeable in whose eyes? Isn't this inherent in the definition of a mistake--that the outcome was not genuinely foreseeable in the same sense that it might be for another. Let's take these kids, for example: On their part, the foreseeable result for taking crystal meth was simply that they would get high in their apartment...and just wake up the next day. If the foreseeable result for every action was always clear and certain..well, mistakes would never be made. And aren't all mistakes "voluntary," in the sense that one can always say "yes" or "no"?

What is really required of you to share sympathy, in this case? The degrees vary--in my mind, it is enough to utter the words or flash the thoughts "what a horrible shame." This is better than nothing, or worse, turning your back. I can see more of a purpose in granting sympathy than not.

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The salty fragrance of LEau DImNotDedalus - made entirely of and entirely for sea turtles.

Posts: 1983 | From: Chicagoland, IL | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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I never said I didn't take risks. When I did, I tried to reduce the actual risk involved... but if something bad had happened, I would not expect sympathy or pity.

This is all a sliding scale. What will make you weep with sympathy may make me just nod knowingly - and what has me throwing the pity party may well leave you wondering what rock I crawled out from under.

All I want (in my Utopia) is that everybody does their jobs. They don't even have to do it WELL - just do it. The dispatchers were trying to do their job. In the vast majority of cases, they are able to get the good guys where they are needed. In this case, they couldn't - and you can hear the pain in their voices on the tapes. It is for this that I offer them my sympathy.

When you do something - anything - there is a selection of results possible. Some are hugely more likely than others... like tossing an apple in the air. It is most likely to go up a ways, then drop back down to Earth. What is MUCH less likely is that you toss it up as a little birdy flies by and smashes into it, dying a horrible apple-flavored death. For this last thing - as it is NOT likely, I would offer pity to both you - as the unwitting cause of the death - and to the little birdy for meeting an untimely demise.

Some things are not as rare to happen. If you drink and drive in the rain while speeding you are much more likely to be involved in an accident. If that happened, I would honestly believe that you got what was likely your just deserts. If you crashed into another car and killed a young family, I would offer them sympathy as the most likely outcome of driving home from a PTA meeting is actually getting home alive. The drunk changed all that.

And, I guess, to drive my feelings about these two home for you, I offer you this: If I suddenly opened my eyes and found myself in the congregation at their memorial service, I would get up and walk out.

I offer sympathy like I offer love - if I feel the person deserves it, they have it all. If not - they don't get a jot.

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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ica171
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties in the arborvitae:
I don't know whether these two people were addicts or just unlucky, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

For all we know, these kids could have been first time users, right?
I saw all kinds of coverage on this at the time, both before and after they discovered it was drug related. Forgive me for judging a book by its cover, but the second I saw the picture of the boyfriend on the news, I thought "What a thug." (I think they were actually using a mugshot; that's the pose he took, anyway.)

Anyway, I seem to recall hearing something to the effect that Janelle (sp?) had not taken regular meth, but some sort of new meth that was extremely pure, like 80-90 percent or something like that, but also that it wasn't the first time that either of them had taken meth. I also thought that the comment about taking the drugs 2-3 days beforehand applied to the marijuana in their system, not the meth, which police found some of in the couple's truck.

Also, slightly OT, but after this happened, some guy got drunk in his apartment and called 911 and said that he had been driving with a friend, that their truck had gone off the road, his friend was unconscious, and he was trapped in the car. They sent all kinds of rescue personnel, helicopters, etc, out to find the truck, but actually ended up finding it in the parking lot of his apartment complex. He was arrested and it was all over the news.

Guess it goes to show what the combination of alcohol, too much time, and too much TV will do.

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Dogwater
Happy Holly Days


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Malruhn , as a side-effect (a happy one, mind) of this board, I find that I have become much more open to other's opinions. This is especially true here, where said opinion is often well presented. I think I understand where you are coming from, and realize that I may be in that same camp.

That said, while I still have sympathy for the fact that drug-use lead to a death sentence, I do not feel much more than "that's too bad". I am very sad and sorry, however, for the lives that were wasted. It is a shame that chasing a high culminated in the loss of 'what could have been'. In your hypothetical Memorial Service, I would be sadder still to learn that these two were otherwise contributing members to society


Before anyone asks, yes, I do distinguish between people who otherwise do something with their lives and those who waste it, as far as what grief I feel. I had a SIL by marriage found dead of a drug overdose...she was MORBIDLY obese, around 350 lbs., and ended up aspirating in her sleep. She paid no attention to the kids and sent them off with distant aquaintances for weeks at a time while they missed school, etc etc. She existed on welfare and taught the kids how to steal for what they wanted. I mentioned my nephews in another thread. This was their mom. I though dying was the best thing she ever did for the kids. Malruhn, I'll see you in Hell, I guess)

A quick question, Malruhn . How would you feel about a skydiver's death from a jump? Do you hold that the person knew what could happen, and so save the sympathy? Because, actually, that's how I feel. Bungee jumpers, parachutes, etc etc, you picked a very dangerous thing to do (in fact, I venture to say the 'Cheat Death' aspect is where the thrill lies). I think this may be analogous to why you feel as you do regarding the Meth deaths?

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As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

Posts: 1679 | From: Illinois | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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I can see your point completely. Not that I afford the same sympathy, but I definitely see your point.

In a Memorial Service, everybody can be eulogized as a near Saint... even really bad people (Bundy, Hitler, etcetera) (did I just Godwin myself?)

The skydiver gets no sympathy either - just like Evil Knievel. You partake in a risky sport, you stand a good chance of ending up as a statistic... and this gets no sympathy from me. Yup - that is exactly why I feel this way. Man, does it feel good that I finally got through to somebody.

Even if you don't agree, it still feels good that somebody can see my argument. [lol] Thanks! [Big Grin]

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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