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Author Topic: Pit Bulls want more blood
Ink Rose
Deck the Malls


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quote:
No offense intended, but only an idiot leaves a toddler/baby unsupervised with any dog in my opinion.
Very true. Most dogs I know treat babies as puppies, and are more tolerant. The problem is that they have a tendencyto also either try and discipline them as they wouid a puppy, which equals trouble, or small mistakes happen.

It would be an incredibly stupid risk to take for no good reason.

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Morrigan
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by DakotaPride:
I find it hard to believe that a pitbull(or any other dog) will just "snap" and attack a human or another dog.(barring illness or injury) There were signs missed or ignored by the owner. Yet the dog or breed is blamed for lack of supervision, or training.

Here's my story. Years ago, a woman I knew had shelties and dobermans. The gray dobie that she had, her name was Sarah. She'd had her since a puppy, trained her, gotten her CD, taken good care of her. Came home one day, and unprovoked, Sarah attacked her. Sarah cornered her in her kitchen. Kept her at bay with a chair. Kept telling Sarah the obedience lessons that had been ingrained in her. It did no good. Sarah kept attacking. Her husband came home, and Sarah went after him. He ended up shooting her.

What went wrong? They took good care of her. Kept her in a kennel or in the house when they weren't there. Never tied her out. Fed her, watered her, trained her. She was their housedog.

What went wrong? The shelties never turned on them. So what went wrong with Sarah?

Morrigan

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"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep." Robert Frost, Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening

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DakotaPride
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Morrigan:


What went wrong? The shelties never turned on them. So what went wrong with Sarah?

Morrigan

I don't have a clue, but the first thing I would have done is taken the body to the vet to rule out illness.
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Sister Ray
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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I'd think first of a brain tumor.

Also, when I went to a Doberman rescue event with my sister, I met a 17 year old Doberman, rescued at 13. He was as sweet as could be.

Sister "quite fond of Dobies, actually" Ray

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Morrigan
Happy Holly Days


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I've also met some wonderful dobermans.

And some wonderful "pit bulls." My brother owned and American Pit Bull Terrier named "India." She was the sweetest dog-thought she was a lapdog. Never bit anyone.

But I just presented the story about the dobie to present the flipside-that of a dog that did just flip, for no apparent reason. It does happen.

Morrigan

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"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep." Robert Frost, Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening

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Lady Neeva
I Saw Three Shipments


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But just because there was no apparent reason, doesn't mean there wasn't a reason if that makes sense.

Myself, I'd suspect a brain tumor, some other kind of neurological issue, disease, or poison of some sort. And have a necropsy done, not only to find out what happened, but to find out what (if anything) might be done to prevent it from happening again.

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Xia
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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It sounds like "rage syndrome" but there are conflicting opinions on whether that actually exists... I would definitely have done a necropsy to find out if there was some physical cause if a dog suddenly attacked in that way.

Info on "rage syndrome":
quote:
(from http://www.cockerspanielrage.org.uk/ )
What are the symptoms of Rage Syndrome?

Sudden attacks for no apparent reason; the dog will often be sleeping and then attack without warning. The eyes become dilated and sometimes change colour during and after an attack, the dog is totally confused when attacking and will not respond to any attempts to stop it. The attacks are very unpredictable and the dog will often appear disorientated afterward and unaware of it's actions, then return to it's normal self shortly after. Victims are usually members of the family and due to the lack of warning from the dog, suffer from a flesh wound that will need medical attention.

As I said some say that this does not exist, but others believe it is real...

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

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evilrabbit
Jingle Bell Hock


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The eyes change color? Meaning an actual change to the color of the iris? Is that even possible? I mean, it would require a sudden influx (or exit) of pigment to the cells, wouldn't it?

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Lady Neeva
I Saw Three Shipments


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Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the quoted bit *probably* wasn't written by a vet. I've run into more than one person over the years that mistake dilation for "color change".

Theoretically, if this "rage syndrome" exists (I don't know for sure, but I'd have to say it doesn't seem terribly likely), it would probably be most similar to some kind of waking nightmare -- basically, I'm going to guess that something misfired in the animals brain and it thinks the human is out to hurt it, or is the cause of some pain it's currently feeling.

Anyways, what I guess I'm saying is that such a stimulus *would* cause the eyes to dilate, which some people will mistake for a color change.

As to why I personally don't think this rage syndrome actually exists... basically, if something exists in one species there will be another species that has a similar issue -- cats, humans, and apes all have a virus that causes immune system failure and is passed on by body fluids for example. Even though they are different virii (unsure about human and ape versions, but I know the feline version is entirely different) they're transmitted in very similar ways and produce very similar results.

So, if there was some sort of hereditary "rage syndrome", chances are we'd see it in captive wolf, coyote, or possibly fox populations as well at a minimum. I haven't seen anything about this rage syndrome that mentions a similar effect happening in any other species.

On the other hand, it is possible for “crazy” to be hereditary – schizophrenia is an example of a human mental disease that’s been shown to have some sort of hereditary cause. Bi-polar is another example. It’s entirely possible that there is a canine version of bi-polar… after having known my younger sister all her life; I could definitely see how it could be said she flies off the handle for absolutely no reason. Difference is, she’s human and can express her thoughts at the time, so you *know* without a doubt what exactly got her so angry she’s smashing holes in the walls and throwing punches.

So, if there was a canine mental disorder that worked in a similar manner to bi-polar, I could definitely see how it could look like an unprovoked attack – basically there was provocation, but it’s something SO minor and SO everyday that nobody would ever think that could set them off. I’ve seen my sister go into a screaming rage (including copious amounts of property damage) because someone set a grocery bag down on the wrong side of the counter.

Back on the first hand though, I don’t know how likely that is since it seems to be limited to whatever breed is popular at the time LOL. And it seems to change names with every breed… with golden cocker spaniels (oddly enough, you rarely saw it mentioned in regards to the black cockers, any shade other than gold within the ASCOB group, the parti-colored group, or English cocker spaniels) it was “rage syndrome”, with Dobermans it was some silly theory that the skulls stopped growing and the brains didn’t, with Dalmatians it was said to be caused by them getting or not getting spots in certain places on the head (only heard that one once though heh), and with Collies, German Shepherd Dogs, and anything in the spitz/sled dog group they’re always said to be “throwbacks to wolves”.

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geminilee
The First USA Noel


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There are apparently several conditions that can cause agression in dogs.

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Terrie
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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For people who think big dog = more dangerous dog, remember that small dogs often cause facial bites, because of people picking them up and holding them near their faces. One story that gives me the shivers involved a toy poodle mix whose canine tooth lodged in someone's eye socket, between the bone and the eyeball. Brrrr.
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ravynwriter
I Saw Three Shipments


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Just because a dog lunges or barks at a fence when a person passes does not make this an aggressive move nor the dog an aggressive dog. My dogs will bark and jump at any barrier between them and another person. Fences, my front door, the sliding door...they do it out of excitement. They want out to say hi! If I released them they'd immediately run over, bathe the person in kisses, and wiggle fit to bursting with the desire to play. They don't have an aggressive bone in their bodies.

That said, I would never leave any of my dogs alone in the proximity of any child. My dogs are always leashed outside and always under my control, and I pay close attention to their body signals.

As for not understanding why people like dogs or get out of them...I personally don't understand what people see in skydiving, or what they get out of stock car racing. That doesn't mean I think love of these things is stupid. People are different. I love my dogs and get an immense amount of comfort, love, and friendship from them. I don't care if my neighbor likes or dislikes dogs but I WILL fight to the death if anyone tries to take or 'legistlate' my dogs out of my life when my dogs have committed no crimes.

No, my dogs aren't pits, though my boxer does get mistaken for one all the time.

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Tammy61
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGairk18L8g

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Tammy61
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlvIa70rou8

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Shay Shay

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Tammy61
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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Nuff said.............


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBjsAoYn7Xw...

Wake up and smell the coffee this is what is happeing to our beloved pets...

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Shay Shay

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Tammy61
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-S-FeR0YwY

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Shay Shay

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Peacockalorum
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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Could anyone give some advice on good ways to behave around dogs?

I would prefer not to interact with strange dogs- just walk past and ignore them. (I would not be likely to go up and pet a strange dog- I don't dislike them, but don't have any particular affection for them.) But there are a couple of occasions when I have been unsure of what to do.

Anecdotes ahoy...
Once I was with some friends going down the street- we were walking 3 abreast, I was on the end, and we passed two dogs (border collies or something similar, and small, IIRC) which were tied up to a lamp post. They were set back away from the pavement, certainly not near enough for me to touch them from where I was. They were not barking, trying to escape or agitated in any way. I didn't look at them or approach in any way, but one of them jumped and bit. Not a serious or deep bite but enough to break the skin, impress friends, and require a tetanus update.
I was paying no attention to the dogs at all, apart from noting they were there (in the same way I would note a flowerbed or a dustbin etc). So I am not sure how I had set them off.

A friend had a black labrador or similar which she adored. By all accounts it was a friendly and gentle dog, quite old and not too active. I was introduced to it (by the owner, i.e she shows me to the dog, issues any appropriate commands, etc.) It didn't take to me. It did a lot of growling, and appeared to assume an aggressive posture. I said, okay, hello dog, now let's go about our respective businesses- then (once we were in separate rooms) said that I wasn't too sure about its reaction and had better not bother it again. However the owner was convinced it was playing and brought it upstairs to see me, where it had exactly the same reaction.
The last eg. is more a case of daft owner- I would not inflict an animal on someone who didn't want it, for the comfort of both- but apart from crossing the road when dogs are imminent, what can one do to avoid random biting?

Btw. all the dogs I have known personally have been grand, and we got on very well (with the exception of a rescue dog who was deaf and unpredictable, and a hideous sausage dog. But these were special cases and easily avoidable.)

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"A chicken? To celebrate the birth of our Lord- a chicken?!"

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Morrigan
Happy Holly Days


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Some advice:

Don't make eye contact. It's considered aggressive and dominant. Especially with a large, barking dog.

Talk quietly and calmly. Speak in a low voice-it doesn't matter what you say, as long as it's said calmly.

If the dog runs up to you, put your hand down, but don't reach for the dog. Have your hand at your side. Slowly, while talking to the dog, make your exit. Do not run, and don't make eye contact.

If the dog has it's head down, hackles raised, fur raised, tail up, it's aggressive and might/will bite. Back away from this dog-do not run and do not turn your back to it.

Here are some sites to describe in further detail what the posture of the dog means (better than I can describe it!:

http://www.wagntrain.com/BodyLanguage.htm

http://www.leerburg.com/aggresiv.htm

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/AggressiveDogInformation.htm

If a dog is barking at me (tied up or otherwise), I've been known to sharply say "that's enough" or "no bark" in the tone that means "I'm in charge." I don't do it to strange dogs, though. Those, I just talk to in a normal, not excited tone of voice.

Ignoring is a good thing, when you don't know what to do.

Hope that helps!

Morrigan

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"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep." Robert Frost, Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening

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Kahuna Burger
I Saw Three Shipments


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quote:
we were walking 3 abreast, I was on the end, and we passed two dogs (border collies or something similar, and small, IIRC) which were tied up to a lamp post.
In my expereince and from dog professonals I've worked with, a dog which is restrained becomes much more defensive of the space it does have. Think about how much dogs bark at passersby when they are locked in a car (another rant when done in warm weather). In some dogs this is exagerated, groomers call it being "cage shy" (scared to go into small spaces, defensive agression when you try to get them back out again.) So when a dog is tied up, caged or otherwise feels constrained in his territory, you have to give it that extra caution when intruding on that small space it has.
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Izunya
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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Morrigan covered a lot of it, but I tend to have fairly good luck with big dogs, so I thought perhaps I should post. As a rule, I don't approach dogs. I stop and talk to them. This gives me a chance to assess their body language, and it gives them a chance to decide whether or not to approach me.

FWIW, this approach has only failed to work on one set of dogs in my neighborhood. I call them the Totenwursten, which is probably lousy German but gets the point across. They are a trio of dachsunds with, apparently, only a single dachsund brain between them, and they *hate* me for walking on their sidewalk. We've always had a fence between us, though; from past experience, if we met on neutral ground with no barriers, they might be a bit more polite.

It's also worth noting that not being afraid of dogs seems to improve their reaction from the moment they see you. I haven't been afraid of big dogs since I was four, when I discovered that the Newfies next door were not huge barking bears and the worst I could expect from them was to be covered with dog slurp. (At four, those critters were bigger than me---and *man,* was there a lot of dog slurp to go around. But I digress.)

I have to wonder why border collies, of all breeds, were tied up to a lamp post, and how long they had been there. IME, if a border collie can't run wide, fast circles around things, it isn't happy. They will happily herd your cats, wild geese, tennis balls, it doesn't matter, but they *have* to do some sort of "work" or they go all weird. If these border collies had been tied up for a long time, they were probably incredibly frustrated. They might have nipped you just because of that.

Izunya

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Morrigan
Happy Holly Days


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I'm guessing that they were tied up because they weren't trained properly. The owner couldn't get them to do what he/she wanted (such as stay with him on a walk) or walk on a leash properly.

I'm guessing bad training. That's with my experience of training dogs, though. Specifically, training Shetland Sheepdogs. Of course, with the herding, that's one reason that border's don't make good city dogs.

Morrigan

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"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep." Robert Frost, Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening

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