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snopes
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Comment: At a casino this weekend a man told me that someone won $11
million at an Indian casino, I think in Oklahoma. The casino said they
didn't have that kind of money and that the customer was out of luck. The
person also related that since the casino was on a reservation, the
gambler had no recourse. Laws and government couldn't intervene.

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Tootsie Plunkette
Buy a Torch, Jeanette, Isabella


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J.C. HATCHER, Plaintiff v. HARRAH'S NC CASINO COMPANY, LLC, Defendant

quote:
Harrah's Cherokee Casino in Cherokee, North Carolina, is owned by the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians and managed by defendant. Plaintiff alleges that on 3 May 1998, he inserted money into a machine at the casino which returned a display announcing that plaintiff won a prize of $11,428.22. Plaintiff attempted to collect his winnings, but was told by a member of the casino staff that the prize would not be awarded to him.



--------------------
--Tootsie

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Brad from Georgia
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Losing Gambler: "But we had a treaty with you!"

Casino Manager: "In the words of the Great White Father, neener neener neener."

--------------------
"No hard feelin's and HOPpy New Year!"--Walt Kelly
Hear what you're missing: ARTC podcasts! http://artcpodcast.org/

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Mr. Furious
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Wow. So they'll take your money, but are under no obligation to pay you if you "win?" I guess this is a new take on Indian giving?

--------------------
"He's not gonna let me in, I'm Mr. Dirty Mouth!"
- Jeffrey Coho (Craig Bierko), Boston Legal

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Mistletoey Chloe
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You mean one in which it's the turn of Native Americans to recant on contracts and treaties?

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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ILS
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by snopes:
Comment: At a casino this weekend a man told me that someone won $11
million at an Indian casino, I think in Oklahoma. The casino said they
didn't have that kind of money and that the customer was out of luck. The
person also related that since the casino was on a reservation, the
gambler had no recourse. Laws and government couldn't intervene.

Local laws and government, maybe. But federal goverment and laws would still apply. As well as civil. This sounds like a bit of anti-gambling nonsense to me.
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gnome
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Not to mention a huge mistake on the part of the casino, if it's true... I certainly would go to a different casino if they declared the right to refuse to pay me.

(if I gambled at all)

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Tootsie Plunkette
Buy a Torch, Jeanette, Isabella


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I may be misunderstanding (someone who understands 'legal' may correct me), but it looks as though:
1) Slot gambling isn't legal in the state.
2) ...but it is allowed on tribal land.
3) The gambler, when he didn't get his winnings, tried to sue in state court.
4) The state courts have no jurisdiction (otherwise there wouldn't have been a jackpot, since slots are illegal).

According to the ruling, he should have followed the Cherokee Code rules for resolving the dispute:
quote:
Any person who has any dispute, disagreement or other grievance with the gaming operation that involves currency, tokens, coins, or any other thing of value, may seek resolution of such dispute from the following persons and in the following order:

(a) A member of the staff relevant of the gaming operation;

(b) The supervisor in the area of the relevant gaming operation in which the dispute arose;

(c) The manager of the relevant gaming operation; and

(d) The [Cherokee Tribal Gaming] Commission.

It's not stated if he tried anything beyond (a).

--------------------
--Tootsie

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HelloLlama
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I swear I saw this guy on Headline News. Didn't the casino claim it was an equipment malfunction and therefore they didn't have to pay, or something like that?

Or am I thinking of someone else?

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forceflow15
I Saw Three Shipments


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As a Native American, and budding expert in Federal law as relates to my peoples, ILS is right. The local governments would have no jurisdiction but state and federal governments would. Indian gaming is regulated by the state under compacts created by the state with the tribe operating the casino.

HelloLlama's comment is more likely to be correct than is everyone else's comments that blame the natives. I agree that regardless of the reason the tribe should pay out (more a good business decision than acknowledgement of any wrongdoing or anything).

Lastly, everyone needs to realize that many of those who benefit from gaming are the white men that operate the casinos in the name of the tribe. Notice that this instance involved Harah's Cherokee blah blah blah. Harah's is a huge gaming consortiuum that makes more money than the tribe on this casino. Do not be quick to blame the natives just because they are allowed to run casinos.

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Forceflow

"There was Joye in the courtroom, but he slipped on a-peel." = Prof. Kutner

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guruwan2b
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I won $28K at an Indian Casino in Oklahoma a year ago October. They were not able to give me the entire amount that night. They gave me $5K and I went back a few days later for the rest.
Ever casino that I have been to has had a sign that says they are not liable for machine malfunctions.

Also, how did this go from 11 million to 11K?

I have also been in casinos when storms come up. They ask every one to cash out and get off the machines. That way you won't be playing if there is a power surge or outage.

I love my Indian casinos.
guru

--------------------
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Danvers Carew

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Barbara
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Furious:
Wow. So they'll take your money, but are under no obligation to pay you if you "win?" I guess this is a new take on Indian giving?

No, in my experience that's not it, although any time there are news stories about refuted jackpots it's easy to come away with that impression. Slot machines malfunction, with what appears on the reels (which is what the gambler sees) not matching what is displayed in the machine's memory (which is what the casino operators and gaming control personnel see and go by). Now granted, it is a huge disappointment when some little old lady watches all the 7s line up and goes into paroxysms of joy only to soon afterwards hear that the machine hiccuped and what she saw on the reels didn't match what had happened inside. At that point, any little old lady worth her salt is going to scream to blue heaven that she's been cheated. And yet there was no cheat because there never was a valid jackpot.

If all this sounds too crazy to make sense of, consider this: Each slot machine (well, at least the ones produced in the last few decades, if not every last cobwebbed version of them still on casino floors in out-of-the-way little towns) has an electronic memory inside it. As soon as you drop in a coin or hit the "Play Credits" button, your outcome for that particular spin has been determined even though the reels themselves have yet to start spinning. (The machine already knows what the reels will display, and it matters not if you hit a button or yank the handle because such matters have already been decided before you get your paws on either.) That electronic memory can be sent into a number of different modes, including a "Test" mode used by casino personnel to check that reels and memory are functioning properly. Now, usually (and by that I mean "almost always") test mode is deliberately triggered by a slot tech who has the machine open and who keys in the instructions for it to run that diagnostic. However, every blue moon or so, a slot machine will all on its own throw itself into "Test" mode, resulting in the reels sloooowwwwllly spinning (sometimes backwards), then coming to rest with the jackpot symbols lining up on the payline. This can happen because the machine short-circuits or because it's been tampered with or it overheats or because somebody's walking beside it caused it to tilt - at times, it's almost impossible to figure out why it happens. That's why every jackpot that appears on a machine's reels is checked against its memory, because otherwise casinos would be paying out not only when machines *actually* hit but also when they *appear* to hit.

This problem of machines going into "Test" mode has created public relations nightmares for any number of casinos, both Indian and non-Indian, because everyone who sees his or her machine line up those winning symbols can't help but feel cheated when the news is delivered that it wasn't a valid jackpot. Maybe ten years ago, for instance, an Indian casino in Arizona (I believe - it's been a while since I read the story) mishandled a case of that and really got a black eye over it. To hear it being told in the papers, those nasty Indians had cheated some poor little old lady of her just winnings - her symbols had lined up and then those money-grubbing savages had refused to pay her. Public opinion came down heavily on the side of the poor cheated little old lady, and the casino really hurt itself by not immediately telling its side of the story. (I guess in its naivete, it hoped all the ruckus would shortly blow over. Fools they were.) What had really happened? For some reason or other, the machine had needed to be opened (coin jam? paper outage? turn the volume up or down?), and somehow either the "Test" mode codes got keyed in while it was open or the shutting of the machine set off the diagnostic, but casino tapes did show the machine going into that sssslllllooowww roll of the symbols as the tech left, the winning symbols lining up, and the woman going nuts thinking she'd won. Yet she also knew (as came out in questioning) that the machine wasn't acting the way it usually did, in that she'd realized that that slow roll it went into was something she hadn't seen before and was quite unlike the quick Chunk! Chunk! Chunk! of the symbols coming to rest that she'd been dealing with up until then. But that of course didn't come out until the tribe finally got fed up with hearing how it had cheated this woman and finally told its side of the story and showed the tapes.

It's been said before, but it bears saying again: Casinos have no need to cheat anyone. People walk in there and give them their money as it is (and I'm one of them), so why would they risk killing the golden goose by fostering a reputation for not paying off winners and so scare off the clientele? (I have done much hanging out in casinos. Forget about the story not getting out - the players hear *everything*. If someone didn't get his or her justly earned jackpot, every regular of that casino would have heard about it within a week. The slot and video poker players talk to one another like magpies, especially when there's a good piece of gossip to be chewed over.)

Barbara "one of the advantages to playing at locals' casinos versus carpet joints is getting to hear all the best gossip while it's still hot and fresh" Mikkelson

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guruwan2b
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A friend of mine was in a casino where a machine had been tested and left in test mode. She had several good hits one after another before the casino personnel realized their error. They did give her some free credits, but she didn't get the payoff that showed on the machine.
And Barbara is right about the gossip, when something happens all the regulars hear about it and spread it on.
guru

--------------------
Too much of this navel gazing and we'll disappear up our own arses.
Danvers Carew

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shifty rob
Jingle Bell Hock


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A question for those who are knowledgable about this "Test Mode"- while in this mode, would the machine even accept/require coins to be inserted? In the case that Barbara describes that was caught on tape, it sounds as if the machine in question went into test mode on it's own; the woman saw it behaving strangely, stood there watching, then tried to claim the prize when it stopped on the jackpot. Unless I'm failing to appropriately read between the lines, she didn't even have to invest in the spin- it spun on it's own.

I'm just curious. I suspect pigs will fly before I ever win a jackpot. Other than the huge jackpot that is my life, marriage, etc. of course.

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"They got a name for the winners in the world; I want a name when I lose" -Steely Dan

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Mistletoey Chloe
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Guru, SO hates casinos, so I need a casino buddy. OMG! We should totally have an OK snopes meet in a casino! Like, totally! Signora Del Drago, are you old enough to drink? [Wink]

--------------------
~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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HelloLlama
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If my memory serves me correctly, this was not a case of the reels and the machine's memory not matching up, but that the dollar amount displayed far exceeded the top jackpot for that machine.

I could be thinking of some other case, though. Bitter former librarian that I am, I'm too lazy to look it up.

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Brad from Georgia
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I recall a Jack Benny radio sketch wherein the king of cheap hit a jackpot on a one-armed bandit that did not pay off. After considerable in the way of loud protestations, working up the chain to the manager of the casino, Benny carried his point, and the manager gave him fifteen cents, the payout on the penny slot machine he had been playing.

--------------------
"No hard feelin's and HOPpy New Year!"--Walt Kelly
Hear what you're missing: ARTC podcasts! http://artcpodcast.org/

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guruwan2b
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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
Guru, SO hates casinos, so I need a casino buddy. OMG! We should totally have an OK snopes meet in a casino! Like, totally! Signora Del Drago, are you old enough to drink? [Wink]

~~~guru grabs her cash~~~
When and Where???
Goldsby is building a brand new casino, that is a little too far south for you almost-Kansas Okies. Name the place and I will try like crazy to be there. Hubby doesn't like for me to go to casinos, even after my big win. [Roll Eyes]

If I am remembering what my friend said correctly, she had put in $20, then hit the spin button. I don't think the machine ever charged any monies for her few spins since it was in test mode.
You would think they would make it flash or something to indicate that it was in test mode.

Oh, and the $28K I hit was on a penny machine. Might have to go to the casino after work. I think the penny Cash Cow is up to over $800,000...
[Eek!]

--------------------
Too much of this navel gazing and we'll disappear up our own arses.
Danvers Carew

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Mistletoey Chloe
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You're south of OKC, right? I'm still a bit hazy about OK geography, but as long as I don't have to drive more than about an hour and a half home, I'm up for it. Do you know which side of the state Signora lives? And I wonder if Love My Mastiff is still around? Who did I leave out?

--------------------
~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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guruwan2b
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I am thinking the Signora is up north, too. There are a couple of Newbie Okies around, too.
I am about an hour south of OKC. So North OKC would be ok for me.

guru "beware the Okies have taken over the thread" wan2b

--------------------
Too much of this navel gazing and we'll disappear up our own arses.
Danvers Carew

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Singing in the Drizzle
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I have not been down to Reno or Los Vagas in about 5 years now. From what I have seen and past experance, they pay the winning amount if the machine is not working properly. Then shut it down. I have not seen or heard about a machine erroring on a Mega Bucks jackpot.
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Toad Buddy
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by shifty rob:
A question for those who are knowledgable about this "Test Mode"- while in this mode, would the machine even accept/require coins to be inserted? In the case that Barbara describes that was caught on tape, it sounds as if the machine in question went into test mode on it's own; the woman saw it behaving strangely, stood there watching, then tried to claim the prize when it stopped on the jackpot. Unless I'm failing to appropriately read between the lines, she didn't even have to invest in the spin- it spun on it's own.

It's been almost four years since I worked in a casino, but having worked in a position involving compliance issues/testing, and if memory serves correctly:
1) In test mode, yes, you can insert coins/tokens to test the machine payouts, and;
2) While in test mode, there was 'something' that the slot technician did inside the machine, with the door open, that did not require coins to be inserted before the handle was pulled or the button pressed.

From what Barbara recalls, a technician had been at the machine repairing a fault, shut the door and the reels came to rest, at a jackpot. Lucky coincidence? Yes. Is it the lady's money? No. She didn't put any coins/tokens in, therefore she's not entitled to a payout. And how she could even have the audacity to claim otherwise is beyond me! The cameras are everywhere.

In my experience, if there was ever a dispute over a jackpot, the casino would do everything they could to placate the customer. They have enough of a bad reputation with a lot of people in the community as it is, that they're not going to exaberate the problem. That said, we never had to deal with a dispute this large.

Hope this helped to answer your question(s).
~Toad Buddy

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Mr. Furious
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quote:
Originally posted by Barbara:
No, in my experience that's not it, although any time there are news stories about refuted jackpots it's easy to come away with that impression.

The full post has been snipped for brevity, but I wanted to say that I very much appreciate your thorough and thoughtful explanation, Barbara. I don't gamble (I have nothing against it, I'm just really bad at it), so I don't really have a grasp on the nuances that you (as always) so eloquently described.

--------------------
"He's not gonna let me in, I'm Mr. Dirty Mouth!"
- Jeffrey Coho (Craig Bierko), Boston Legal

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rogue
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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guru, chloe,

My wife has applied for a job at the new Goldsby casino...great wages and benefits!

Also, work less than a mile from Thunderbird casino (east of Norman, where I live) and I hear EVERYTHING that happens there, or at least I did until school got out for summer.

-Rogue

--------------------
"'Cause you might enjoy some madness for awile."

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Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Furious:
Wow. So they'll take your money, but are under no obligation to pay you if you "win?" I guess this is a new take on Indian giving?

That's pretty funny. Is this a new take on racist sentiment?
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Mr. Furious
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quote:
Originally posted by Ganzfeld:
That's pretty funny. Is this a new take on racist sentiment?

Actually, I was making fun of the racist sentiment. Nice job picking up on it.

--------------------
"He's not gonna let me in, I'm Mr. Dirty Mouth!"
- Jeffrey Coho (Craig Bierko), Boston Legal

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Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Furious:
quote:
Originally posted by Ganzfeld:
That's pretty funny. Is this a new take on racist sentiment?

Actually, I was making fun of the racist sentiment. Nice job picking up on it.
Thanks. It was so obvious that you were being sarcastic. [Roll Eyes]
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Zachary Fizz
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Calm down, the pair of you.

There's no need to bring racial slurs into this. It's just a discussion of welshing on a bet.

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Ganzfeld
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Not fair, Zachary, he could have just said the man got gypped.
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pob14
Jingle Bell Hock


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Was the casino being niggardly? [dunce]

--------------------
Patrick

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rogue
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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OK, I've gone through about 200 pages, but still cannot find what I am looking for...

Does anyone know WHY the casino mgmt. denied the payout? All the documents I can find simply rule on procedural issues, not the validity of Hatcher's or the casino's claims.

-Rogue

--------------------
"'Cause you might enjoy some madness for awile."

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