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Author Topic: Oprah says to tip 10%
birdman
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Bill:
I was under the impression that it was just the opposite - people getting separate checks are *more* likely to leave a good tip, because they can see that the server/establishment has made an effort to accommodate them. If instead the server just says, "No, no, no, we can't do that!" the customers are likely to be a little annoyed.

This is certainly the case with my friends. With separate checks, we can each tip as we see fit. I'm not going to undertip because they forgot to bring my friend's salad, but she's welcome to undertip for her portion if she wants.

Also, everyone has a little different scale for tipping, and it always seems that the undertippers are the most vocal and demand we leave less. Having separate checks allows me to tip my usual 20% instead of my friend's insistence on 15%. I've actually put more in for a tip, only to have a 'friend' count up the cash and declare we "left too much" and take a dollar back out!

A larger group (more than four) also makes it easier to leave a larger tip, because the rounding to the nearest dollar or nearest $5 adds up, to the server's benefit.

-birdman

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Moon Shadows:
Delivery Drivers--get tipped on average a buck-2bucks a pizza.. They do NOT make that $7 an hour people think they do. That figure is based on what they would make with tips and mileage **included** in their pay check. They make minimum wage, PLUS tips, PLUS mileage (the company pays--something like 10cents a mile). They pay for their own gas, their own insurance (if a driver is in an accident and even if it isn't his fault, HE pays for everything, not the company).. So I tip drivers well enough to cover circumstances..

One quibble: delivery drivers don't necesesarily make minimum wage; around here they are included in the category of people who can be paid the service minimum. The minimum wage in Mass. is $6.75, but the service minimum is $2.63. At the local blue-and-red-pizza-chain, delivery drivers start at $4 per hour (they can get as high as $5 after three years). The locals reimburse at the federal standard mileage rate (currently 0.48 per mile, IIRC), which is better than 0.10 per mile but which lags waaaay behind gas prices (especially recently).

But the bit about own car/own maintenance/own insurance is correct. Also, if your insurance company finds out you're using your car for business purposes, they can (A) revoke your insurance, or (2) charge you commercial rates.

Four Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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I can only speak from my own experience from alot of both types of groups. I have never been in a big directed group where the server did not make out very well. Though I should add that this is except for any time the restraunt insists on an automatic tip, in which case as I've already noted, that's all the server will get.

--------------------
Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
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Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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birdman
We Three Blings


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Here's a little paradox for all y'all:

Suppose I get poor service at a restaurant. I leave a small tip to make the point. But the server disagrees, blames the chef/cook/busboys and burns a mental image of me in her head for being a bad tipper. The next time I go to this restaurant, I get the same server, who now works just as poorly because she knows I'm cheap. So once again I leave a small tip. And the circle goes 'round. Eventually I'll probably end up with bodily fluids in my food if I keep going to that restaurant. (www.stainedapron.com)

OR, what if I left that small tip the first time, the server remembers me and next time goes out of her way to be as friendly and speedy as possible. Now I leave a larger tip and we're all happy.

But how does the server know if I'm displeased with the service or just a cheapass? And even if I am displeased with the service, she may blame it on someone else and think my low tip is unwarranted. Seems like a catch-22.

-birdman

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by birdman:
Here's a little paradox for all y'all:

Suppose I get poor service at a restaurant. I leave a small tip to make the point. But the server disagrees, blames the chef/cook/busboys and burns a mental image of me in her head for being a bad tipper. The next time I go to this restaurant, I get the same server, who now works just as poorly because she knows I'm cheap. So once again I leave a small tip. And the circle goes 'round. Eventually I'll probably end up with bodily fluids in my food if I keep going to that restaurant. (www.stainedapron.com)

OR, what if I left that small tip the first time, the server remembers me and next time goes out of her way to be as friendly and speedy as possible. Now I leave a larger tip and we're all happy.

But how does the server know if I'm displeased with the service or just a cheapass? And even if I am displeased with the service, she may blame it on someone else and think my low tip is unwarranted. Seems like a catch-22.

-birdman

The server doesn't. But, if they treat you as well as possible everytime you are there, they have nothing to lose.

If I get poor service twice in a row I probably will talk to the manager and make she he/she knows why I won't be returning to the restraunt though.

--------------------
Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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i typed for miles
"Repaint and thin no more!"


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
Since I don't drink coffee, I don't get the "tip jar" popularized by places like Starbuck's. I suppose that it *is* possible to reward someone for exceptional service, but for the most part, serving a coffee is pretty easy. How much additional reward does this deserve? (Someone should correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume counter-serve workers are entitled to the full minimum wage, and not the "tip earner" minimum wage.)

depends on the place. Starbucks employees make about $7/hour, whereas at other places (like the one i used to work at) we made minimum wage. tipping your barista is like tipping your bartender - the same amount of work and training goes into both. not only are you memorizing drink ingredients, but the millions of different ways to make those drinks. and calibrating an espresso shot so that it's just right takes some effort.

quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:

The whole thing about calling these people 'baristas' or 'sandwich artists' also bugs me. The job is what it is. Giving it a fancy title is just an excuse to charge more for the same product. And you're falling for their trick by justifying a tip for someone who is just doing the minimum.

not so sure about the "sandwich artist" thing, but baristas are called so because it is the Italian word for "bartender". the coffee that most people drink today is Italian in origin, as are the machinery used in producing those drinks, and the term barista came with it.

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crazy is as crazy does, but fire speaks louder than words.

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Chimera
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I agree with Beachlife. If I have a big party they can (hey sometimes its even written on their menus) charge me 15% (or whatever) but that's all they are going to get. Its really not to their advantage to add in the charge.

In fact my friends and I have even screwed around with place that did this and screwed the wait staff. We just seperated into different parties, seperate tables, seperate checks, and asked for smoking (a small area) and then used it as our private party area and craped them on the tip. If it wasn't the server himself pushing the draconian rules upon us we wouldn't have taken it out on him. I guess I really don't mind places doing that, hell they can do whatever they want. I just wish they'd call it a service charge or something. If tips are to encourage good service then what good is manditory tipping?

I also wish people would quit saying that anyone working these places makes less than minimum wage. If the do its their own fault. If the base salary plus tips doesn't equal minimum the company has to cover the difference. No one has to go around working for 10 cent a day. That's just not legal.

--------------------
"The question for joining the protected forum for real magicians should be:

What is the use of women?"
Steve W. from JREF's 'This is no fun'

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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How again is coffee Italian in origin?

--------------------
Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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alicia
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
calibrating an espresso shot so that it's just right takes some effort.
yes, it does! but not at starbucks. most starbucks stores have a completely automatic espresso machine that requires only the push of a button. the baristas then steam the milk accordingly and mix the beverages, but they aren't involved in the more tricky part of espresso preparation.

and, since i finally felt compelled to weigh in on this subject- i'll just say that 90% of diners are total jerks to their waitstaff and probably don't even realize it. a lot of waitstaff are jerks and don't realize it. we're all human beings, not robots. waitpersons are not immune to insults, being treated like children, or general rudeness, nor should they be expected to in the name of "service." most people i've met who complain that they only tip well in the face of "excellent" service are demanding, bratty, insolent customers who often can't find anything right about a meal.
on the flip side, waitpersons can definitely take out a bad day on customers, which is not fair. i've been getting some pretty poor service lately, and while i try not to take it personally, it gets kind of annoying.

the important thing to remember about tipping is that waiting tables is probably one of the SHITTIEST JOBS EVER. there's nothing fun about going through dozens and dozens of groups of people who each expect you to live up to their own personal standards of what a waitress should be, on the off chance they'll toss you a little change.

if you can afford to eat out, you can afford to tip well. think of it as being a nice person, not about rewarding someone for a job well done.

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Lady Moon Shadows
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Beach--I also said that my expeirence was a rare one.

Yes, *I* serve 64 lanes, so that means I am serving upwards of (what's 64 times 4?)256 people at a time--but not at the **same** time.. that is to say, I may take enough orders to cover 5 lanes at a time (seeing as how I can only carry so much), then go do another 5, etc. So I am still only serving a few people a time.

Wheras, a party of 20 walks in, covers (6 max to a lane)we would give them 4 lanes, I am serving them **all at once** because they are one party--one, essentially, "person". But because of the very nature of how I do things on the lanes, I can't serve them "5 lanes at a time" (which would still only get me, maybe 2 people per lane--because not everyone uses the waitress), but instead, I am actually serving 20 people at once.

So it makes it "triple" the work because I not only have more to carry (remembering I only do so many lanes at once, with only so many people per lane getting orders taken), more to remember, more to make sure it is perfect,etc..

Technically, it isn't "more" per se, but it is more in the sense that it is "all at once" as opposed to "at a time"...

As for why they'd negotiate to pay more than the "x amount added"---simple: That amount added to your bill doesn't all go to me. It is evenly split amongst people it normally wouldn't be split with(like the cook--some big resturants don't have tip outs to cooks because they get paid an insane amount)--so that "x amount" added is going to everyone from me, your server to the Hostess to the manager on duty.

Whereas, if you negotiate the amount and give me, your server, the bigger amount (not the x amount added), it leaves the decision up to me and means I won't get "robbed" out of a tip--it means I can properly tip out people who get tipped out (the bartender and the bus boys), as opposed to everyone and their brother's uncle twice removed.

You can do it your way, leave the "x amount" and then some. It means that what I said above would essentially apply--I'll make a decent tip and not have to worry about being "robbed" because the entire store was tipped out of my one table.

Now, as for bad tipping=bad service: if you tipped me horribly the first time, and you come in again, I will remember that you tipped me badly, but being who I am, I will put the sugar on so thick you'll choke from it, just as a way to "prove" I am not a bad server.

In other words, I'm always nice--no matter how much you tip me. I may bitch about it privately, but you will still get a smile out of me. Even if my teeth are rotting from the sweetness [Smile] ...

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Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate and wine in hand, body thoroughly used up, and screaming WoW what a ride!

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i typed for miles
"Repaint and thin no more!"


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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
How again is coffee Italian in origin?

i didn't mean as in the beans come from Italy, but rather the making of espresso was invented in, and perfected, in Italy, as is the idea of mixing with milk. hence the names, cappucino, latte, macchiato, and con panno being Italian (among other drink names).

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crazy is as crazy does, but fire speaks louder than words.

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Dogwater:

I will say this as a restaurant guy of some 20 years ( THAT deserves an OMG!!!111!!)...Its' not just black people that carry that reputation. It's Asians, UKers, Europeans, East Indians (I guess that also falls in the Asian catagory, no?), women (especially those with kids, and ESPECIALLY groups of women), teens, old folks and anyone who isn't:
a)male
b)middle-aged
c) white collar
d)white guy

The truth of the matter is that I have a great memory for those 'stiffers' out there. Memories are easier to conjure up when they have a identifiable feature attached to them The color of someone's skin is a good marker. We probably remember those in the above paragraph who stiffed us because they have identifiable characteristics.

Said middle-aged white guy just fades into the noise of the day. If he stiffed you...well, the other 10,000 guys like him you see will dilute that memory.

And this brings up a tipping quandry for me. I used to, especially if I was alone or in a group of women, tip big no matter what the service. To prove that I was "not like that". To break the stereotype. And then I figured why should I pay for someone's stereotype? If I get bad service, I tip accordingly. If my girlfriends and I get bad service and the same server lavishes attention on the group of men next to us (as has happened?) I leave a bad tip and say something to the manager.

If I am offered some excuse as happened a couple of weeks ago "I served those men first because they had to get to work and I know that you two gals are probably just shopping?" I will correct the server ("As it happens, I also have to get back to work"), I will also tip less and complain to the manager.

I realize that I am helping create a self-fulfilling prophecy here. But I don't feel the need to pay an additional "girl tax" because of other people's prejudgements.

I am a good customer. I am friendly and polite. I know your job is hard because I have done it. If you treat me well, you will get 20%+.

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by i typed for miles:
quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
How again is coffee Italian in origin?

i didn't mean as in the beans come from Italy, but rather the making of espresso was invented in, and perfected, in Italy, as is the idea of mixing with milk. hence the names, cappucino, latte, macchiato, and con panno being Italian (among other drink names).
Okay, I understand and that makes sense. I don't usually drink 'that' kind of coffee which is why I was confused.

--------------------
Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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mercurythief
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Moon Shadows:
Now, as far as it being my fault that the system is set up this way--bite me. I can no more control the situation than you can--in fact, you, as the paying customer and tipper--have more control than I do. I cannot demand a living wage (again, remember I do make one, so I am speaking for other waitstaffs who don't) because my tips are what make it a living wage.

The system is the way it is because you accept it. It's not the law that's the problem. A simple strike would do just fine. Get the staff together and demand a higher wage. Tell the restaurant owner to raise the prices on the menu, and to put the words 'tipping optional, our servers make a fair wage,' on the bill. If the owner doesn't compy, find a new job.

Do not pretend that you are not gambling and begging for a living. It's your choice to work as a server, so you have only yourself to blame if it doesn't work out for you. The system affects you, so you should be the one to change it.

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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by i typed for miles:
quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
The whole thing about calling these people 'baristas' or 'sandwich artists' also bugs me. The job is what it is. Giving it a fancy title is just an excuse to charge more for the same product. And you're falling for their trick by justifying a tip for someone who is just doing the minimum.

not so sure about the "sandwich artist" thing, but baristas are called so because it is the Italian word for "bartender". the coffee that most people drink today is Italian in origin, as are the machinery used in producing those drinks, and the term barista came with it.
I'm not asking about the etymology of the word "barista", but it is a relatively new term - people were not called "baristas" when they served coffee in a diner back in the 1950's, and being from the home of the definitive Canadian coffee and donut shop (Tim Horton's), I'm well aware that this word wasn't even in general use in the 80's.

Subway uses the term "sandwich artist" to imply that their employees are somewhat more than a mere sandwich *maker*. They are *artists* - their work *is art*, they take pride in it, and it is better in quality than the competition.

It's a marketing ploy, and one I object to.

--------------------
"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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i typed for miles
"Repaint and thin no more!"


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
quote:
Originally posted by i typed for miles:
quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
The whole thing about calling these people 'baristas' or 'sandwich artists' also bugs me. The job is what it is. Giving it a fancy title is just an excuse to charge more for the same product. And you're falling for their trick by justifying a tip for someone who is just doing the minimum.

not so sure about the "sandwich artist" thing, but baristas are called so because it is the Italian word for "bartender". the coffee that most people drink today is Italian in origin, as are the machinery used in producing those drinks, and the term barista came with it.
I'm not asking about the etymology of the word "barista", but it is a relatively new term - people were not called "baristas" when they served coffee in a diner back in the 1950's, and being from the home of the definitive Canadian coffee and donut shop (Tim Horton's), I'm well aware that this word wasn't even in general use in the 80's.

Subway uses the term "sandwich artist" to imply that their employees are somewhat more than a mere sandwich *maker*. They are *artists* - their work *is art*, they take pride in it, and it is better in quality than the competition.

It's a marketing ploy, and one I object to.

well, i provided you with the etymology of the word barista because it plays a part in the usage of the word. a barista is not the wait person in the diner who puts on a pot of coffee and lets it sit and brew and serves it when people ask for a cup of joe. a barista is a person who is skilled and trained in the ways of making a cup of specialty coffee - namely, the making and brewing of espresso. additionally, so-and-so at the diner in the 50's most likely had never heard of an espresso drink, as "frou-frou drinks" as many call them are relatively new to North American consumers. hence, the word barista is also relatively new, as you pointed out. besides, what other name would you give them? drink maker-ers?

i agree with you on the sandwich artist piece though. i never understood that.

i typed "just don't call them Mr Coffee" for miles

--------------------
crazy is as crazy does, but fire speaks louder than words.

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Lady Moon Shadows
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by mercurythief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Moon Shadows:
Now, as far as it being my fault that the system is set up this way--bite me. I can no more control the situation than you can--in fact, you, as the paying customer and tipper--have more control than I do. I cannot demand a living wage (again, remember I do make one, so I am speaking for other waitstaffs who don't) because my tips are what make it a living wage.

The system is the way it is because you accept it. It's not the law that's the problem. A simple strike would do just fine. Get the staff together and demand a higher wage. Tell the restaurant owner to raise the prices on the menu, and to put the words 'tipping optional, our servers make a fair wage,' on the bill. If the owner doesn't compy, find a new job.

Do not pretend that you are not gambling and begging for a living. It's your choice to work as a server, so you have only yourself to blame if it doesn't work out for you. The system affects you, so you should be the one to change it.

A "simple strike"? You do realize the absurdity in that statement don't you? Of course, if you did, you would not have made it.

However, a "simple strike" will not work. And those in the business **know** this. It is simply much to easy (and better) for us to make our "living wage" off of tips. People like you make it sound as though we are making thousands of dollars a week in tips alone. NO waitstaff that I know of makes that much in a month, let alone a week.

Adding their pay(as I said, I can't use mine because I am making minimum wage)to their average tips a night, they make, maybe, 300$ a pay period(in most places, here, that is every two weeks). $600 a month is hardly "living wages", that's why most of them have "day jobs" (one such person is a teacher by day and works at Outback at night.. she's single, so she doesn't have as many expenses as say, someone with 2 kids, so she makes good on her wages working her two jobs).

As I've stressed, my position is a unique one. I know many, many waitstaff and I can say, with honesty, their positions--having spoken to them and compared "facts".

Your "solution" is not one. It is asking for more trouble. And, it IS the governments problem, not mine. They are the ones who determine what a "living wage" will be, they are the ones who can correct the problem. "Raising prices" at the resturant level is not going to "raise our wage"--it will lower it, as fewer people eat out due to the rise in price--thereby, not justifying paying us more wage wise.

It is a vicious cycle, I never denied that. There needs to be a common ground met, I admitted that.

But blaming the serving staff for the problem is not the solution to the problem.

--------------------
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate and wine in hand, body thoroughly used up, and screaming WoW what a ride!

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by i typed for miles:
a barista is a person who is skilled and trained in the ways of making a cup of specialty coffee - namely, the making and brewing of espresso. i agree with you on the sandwich artist piece though. i never understood that.

At my local place for fancy-schmancy coffee, the folks at the counter have acquired the skill of making all manner of coffee drinks. And deliver non-food orders to the table. So are they baristas in one capacity and mere "waitstaff" in the other?

The name "barista", like your explanation, implies some sort of superior skill that the average server would not have. Why? Is there a college of baristaness that one must attend? Or does walking into a Starbucks make you one? If you leave and seek other employment, do you get to be called a "barista" even if you serve normal coffee?

IMO, there is a skill to being a good server. Not everyone can do it. I can't. I actually probably would be good at making special coffee because it sounds a lot like chemistry.

But the non-pretentious, aforementioned place refers to them all as "counter servers". And their tip jar for years has said "Please support counter intelligence". I put a buck in just for the laugh.

--------------------
There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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At Beaner's, a chain of coffee houses based in Lansing, they require training before someone is called a Barista. They have a series of job titles based entirely on training.

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Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Wow, Beach, that's interesting. Somehow I don't think that particular franchise would last long down here, though. The name. Not the training. [Wink]

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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ChelleGame
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by birdman:
Here's a little paradox for all y'all:

Suppose I get poor service at a restaurant. I leave a small tip to make the point. But the server disagrees, blames the chef/cook/busboys and burns a mental image of me in her head for being a bad tipper. The next time I go to this restaurant, I get the same server, who now works just as poorly because she knows I'm cheap. So once again I leave a small tip. And the circle goes 'round. Eventually I'll probably end up with bodily fluids in my food if I keep going to that restaurant. (www.stainedapron.com)

OR, what if I left that small tip the first time, the server remembers me and next time goes out of her way to be as friendly and speedy as possible. Now I leave a larger tip and we're all happy.

But how does the server know if I'm displeased with the service or just a cheapass? And even if I am displeased with the service, she may blame it on someone else and think my low tip is unwarranted. Seems like a catch-22.

-birdman

See, that's why you make a point of sitting at someone else's station...make an excuse that you want a booth by the window, or whatever. You then are very nice and friendly to your new server, and leave her a fair to more-than-fair tip, thuse proving you are -- in reality -- a delight to serve. [Wink]

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Michelle

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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by i typed for miles:
well, i provided you with the etymology of the word barista because it plays a part in the usage of the word. a barista is not the wait person in the diner who puts on a pot of coffee and lets it sit and brew and serves it when people ask for a cup of joe. a barista is a person who is skilled and trained in the ways of making a cup of specialty coffee - namely, the making and brewing of espresso. additionally, so-and-so at the diner in the 50's most likely had never heard of an espresso drink, as "frou-frou drinks" as many call them are relatively new to North American consumers. hence, the word barista is also relatively new, as you pointed out. besides, what other name would you give them? drink maker-ers?

i agree with you on the sandwich artist piece though. i never understood that.

i typed "just don't call them Mr Coffee" for miles

Drink-maker. Counter-server. Both sound more accurate.

Having been to Europe, to the south of France and even Italy, where fancy coffee-like beverages were consumed regularly, they had no special "name" for people who served and made coffee. I personally don't think that the level of skill or training to make a specialty coffee, much less than that of a cook in a restaurant, and only marginally more than a "sandwich assembler" or "burger maker".

As TGirl, said, it takes *skill* to be a server, but I'm guessing that implies "table service" waitstaff who must not only deal with the mechanics of remembering orders and delivering them, but also the whole "customer service" aspect of dealing with special orders, incorrect orders, cold food, and keeping customers happy with drink refills, and suggesting desserts without sounding pushy. Not everyone can do this; not everyone can sell. No surprise there.

Making a specialty coffee, regardless of the "training" involved, is a fairly low-skill job and not worthy of titles, hierarchy, fanfare, etc. Serving coffee is not all that hard. Really.

And if my experience with my coffee drinking co-workers is typical, the average Starbuck's has difficulty serving the "large decaf, two sugars and one cream" that my coffee-loving Egyptian partner drinks, I can't imagine how they deal with something complicated. Or are they merely ticked off because he ordered a $1 coffee, rather than a $5 mocha/latte/whatever?

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"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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Lady Moon Shadows
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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A perfect ending to that is this:
http://www.illwillpress.com/vault.html

Please click on "Coffee House Rant" and "Small, medium,large"...

Not work safe--bad, very bad language involved as wel as a little something to offend everyone.....

Long live Foamy....

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Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate and wine in hand, body thoroughly used up, and screaming WoW what a ride!

Posts: 2924 | From: Flori-duh | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
i typed for miles
"Repaint and thin no more!"


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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:

At my local place for fancy-schmancy coffee, the folks at the counter have acquired the skill of making all manner of coffee drinks. And deliver non-food orders to the table. So are they baristas in one capacity and mere "waitstaff" in the other?

The name "barista", like your explanation, implies some sort of superior skill that the average server would not have. Why? Is there a college of baristaness that one must attend? Or does walking into a Starbucks make you one? If you leave and seek other employment, do you get to be called a "barista" even if you serve normal coffee?

yes and no. there is not a barista college, but there is plenty of training to go through before you can make many of those drinks. it is a skill that the average server would not have unless they've worked in the coffee business before. it's very similar to taking a waiting position but having the memorize the menu first, as well as the ingredients.

some places use the term barista, others prefer to call their employees something else, however, barista is the more widely used and understood term. since the terms for the drinks and the machines used to make them retained their Italian names, why not the people who make them?

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crazy is as crazy does, but fire speaks louder than words.

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
Wow, Beach, that's interesting. Somehow I don't think that particular franchise would last long down here, though. The name. Not the training. [Wink]

Yeah, since they are expanding into other states I've often wondered if they have considered the fact that the name put a limit on their growth oportunity.

--------------------
Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by mercurythief:
Do not pretend that you are not gambling and begging for a living. It's your choice to work as a server, so you have only yourself to blame if it doesn't work out for you. The system affects you, so you should be the one to change it.

[Eek!]

Are people who work on commission "gambling and begging for a living" as well?

And I notice that you have not yet responded to my question about where else they're supposed to work.

Four Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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Lady Moon Shadows
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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4K--McDonald's didn't ya know that???? I mean, after all, they make $7 bucks an hour..

snarf.....

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Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate and wine in hand, body thoroughly used up, and screaming WoW what a ride!

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Bill
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by i typed for miles:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:

At my local place for fancy-schmancy coffee, the folks at the counter have acquired the skill of making all manner of coffee drinks. And deliver non-food orders to the table. So are they baristas in one capacity and mere "waitstaff" in the other?

The name "barista", like your explanation, implies some sort of superior skill that the average server would not have. Why? Is there a college of baristaness that one must attend? Or does walking into a Starbucks make you one? If you leave and seek other employment, do you get to be called a "barista" even if you serve normal coffee?

yes and no. there is not a barista college, but there is plenty of training to go through before you can make many of those drinks. it is a skill that the average server would not have unless they've worked in the coffee business before. it's very similar to taking a waiting position but having the memorize the menu first, as well as the ingredients.

Not a "fancy-schmancy" person myself, but I've noticed that when I go to the "barista place" I always get expert service, and I've got to think management there makes it a point to train people well (and I've written to them to compliment them on it). I don't know how many times at the standard "fast food" places I've had to wait for the counter person to find a manager to show them what button to push on the cash register.

Just my observation; could be wrong.

Thanks.

Bill

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monkey
Happy Holly Days


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I'm sorry, where on earth can you find a McD's that pays $7? The one I worked at paid $6 but never ever gave raises, unless you became management. Then they changed their policy and started at minimum wage but gave a ten cent raise every six months or so. I don't know anyone working at McD's who isn't a manager who makes $7.

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http://sarahdwebber.wordpress.com/

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Lady Moon Shadows
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Certainly, training plays a huge part in the amount of service you will receive.

I remember when I first started, I had 3 "days" training which consisted of following another waitress around, her telling me the prices and where to go to get things and that was it. I also remember, that due to my lack of "training" things that I did, that I had no foreknowledge of "not supposed to do", I got written up until I finally called them on it.

I've developed my skills based on how I wish to be treated. Not in training.

I firmly believe that ones training goes a long way in direct relation to ones worth/pay.

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Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate and wine in hand, body thoroughly used up, and screaming WoW what a ride!

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Lady Moon Shadows
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by monkey:
I'm sorry, where on earth can you find a McD's that pays $7? The one I worked at paid $6 but never ever gave raises, unless you became management. Then they changed their policy and started at minimum wage but gave a ten cent raise every six months or so. I don't know anyone working at McD's who isn't a manager who makes $7.

It was snark, Monkey. Pure snark. The point is---you can't. And that is what 4k is trying to get this guy to say--tryihng to get him to point out **exactly** where we are to go to make a decent wage, if he doesn't like tipping us.

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Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate and wine in hand, body thoroughly used up, and screaming WoW what a ride!

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mercurythief
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Moon Shadows:
quote:
Originally posted by mercurythief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Moon Shadows:
Now, as far as it being my fault that the system is set up this way--bite me. I can no more control the situation than you can--in fact, you, as the paying customer and tipper--have more control than I do. I cannot demand a living wage (again, remember I do make one, so I am speaking for other waitstaffs who don't) because my tips are what make it a living wage.

The system is the way it is because you accept it. It's not the law that's the problem. A simple strike would do just fine. Get the staff together and demand a higher wage. Tell the restaurant owner to raise the prices on the menu, and to put the words 'tipping optional, our servers make a fair wage,' on the bill. If the owner doesn't compy, find a new job.

Do not pretend that you are not gambling and begging for a living. It's your choice to work as a server, so you have only yourself to blame if it doesn't work out for you. The system affects you, so you should be the one to change it.

A "simple strike"? You do realize the absurdity in that statement don't you? Of course, if you did, you would not have made it.

However, a "simple strike" will not work. And those in the business **know** this. It is simply much to easy (and better) for us to make our "living wage" off of tips. People like you make it sound as though we are making thousands of dollars a week in tips alone. NO waitstaff that I know of makes that much in a month, let alone a week.

Adding their pay(as I said, I can't use mine because I am making minimum wage)to their average tips a night, they make, maybe, 300$ a pay period(in most places, here, that is every two weeks). $600 a month is hardly "living wages", that's why most of them have "day jobs" (one such person is a teacher by day and works at Outback at night.. she's single, so she doesn't have as many expenses as say, someone with 2 kids, so she makes good on her wages working her two jobs).

As I've stressed, my position is a unique one. I know many, many waitstaff and I can say, with honesty, their positions--having spoken to them and compared "facts".

Your "solution" is not one. It is asking for more trouble. And, it IS the governments problem, not mine. They are the ones who determine what a "living wage" will be, they are the ones who can correct the problem. "Raising prices" at the resturant level is not going to "raise our wage"--it will lower it, as fewer people eat out due to the rise in price--thereby, not justifying paying us more wage wise.

It is a vicious cycle, I never denied that. There needs to be a common ground met, I admitted that.

But blaming the serving staff for the problem is not the solution to the problem.

I guess my point is that the tipping system is screwed up. There are people who don't believe in tipping a person just for doing their job. Those people are simply choosing not to 'play ball' with the screwed up system. I think it's wrong to get mad at them if they don't tip. Direct your anger at the system, and not at those who choose not to work within the system.

I'm well aware that servers don't make much for a living. However, that is their own problem, no one else's. They chose to work as a server. They could have chosen another line of work. As for a strike not working, if people stopped applying for jobs as servers on the grounds that they don't want to rely on tips, I think the system would be changed rather quickly.

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mercurythief
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties:
quote:
Originally posted by mercurythief:
Do not pretend that you are not gambling and begging for a living. It's your choice to work as a server, so you have only yourself to blame if it doesn't work out for you. The system affects you, so you should be the one to change it.

[Eek!]

Are people who work on commission "gambling and begging for a living" as well?

And I notice that you have not yet responded to my question about where else they're supposed to work.

Four Kitties

People working on commission rely on an unstable source of income. If it works for them, great. If not, I generally don't hear them getting mad at customers for not buying their products. The ones I've known have simply quit.

Where else should servers work? I have no idea. Maybe they should go to college or something. You seem to think people are entitled to a job that pays a living wage. Unfortunately, if they don't have the skills that an employer is willing to pay a good wage for, being 'entitled' to a better job means absolutely nothing.

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Lady Moon Shadows
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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And, with that, I get pissed off. I DO have a college degree--a very good one. The fact that I choose not to work in that field **hardly** proves I am un or under-educated. Hardly. And it is very insulting and only causes you to lose an extreme amount of credibility to assume so.

Everyone is entitled to a living wage. I don't care if they are picking oranges out of an orange grove, are migrant workers, or are the President of a major corporation. EVERYone deserves a "living" (read: wage that means you can survive on the minimum) wage.

I HAVE the skills--that I chose not to use them is not because I am uneducated or lack a degree. Even those WITH the degree aren't making a "living" wage in some areas of work.

Your argument is laughable, hardly believeable and certainly lacks credibility.

And, just to top this off--I've NEVER said servers "deserve" a tip for "just" serving. No. I said the majority of us BUST OUR ASS to earn the tips we get, sometimes they are damn good ones. Sometimes they aren't.

I can gripe about the poor tipping as much as I can rejoice in the good ones. I also said that GOOD servers will not do this in front of customers. Those that do, deserve the lesser tip and loss of a job.

I never supported "entitlement" and I also admitted the system is screwed. But until it is fixed, I can certainly work to educate when I can.

Looks like you could use a good listen.

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Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate and wine in hand, body thoroughly used up, and screaming WoW what a ride!

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alicia
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Maybe they should go to college or something. You seem to think people are entitled to a job that pays a living wage.
excuse me, i DID go to college. you know what i did for a living while going to college? OMG, i waited tables! now what? i have a crummy arts education that isn't getting me anywhere, a buttload of debt, and 5 years of experience working in restaurants and NOWHERE ELSE. i'm so tired of hearing people say crap like, "well, they can get a job somewhere else"

where exactly was i supposed to be working in the evenings after class? at a late night office?

also: yeah, believe it or not, everyone IS entitled to a job that pays a living wage. i can't believe you'd imply that everyone doesn't deserve to live the same as everyone else. how the hell else are we going to gain skills if people don't give us a chance? i'm going through this problem right now, where i'm trying to just find a DESK JOB, for crying out loud. apparenltly, a whole laundry list of skills are required for sitting on your ass, chewing gum, and rolling your eyes at people all day, which is pretty much all i can say for most of the receptionists i've come across (most of whom make over 10 dollars an hour) and yet- even with my college education, and 7 years of customer service experience, i can't seem to find a job where i'm not working in a restaurant!

jeez, i can't even go on, this is an extremely frustrating attitude!

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