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Author Topic: Airbags and feet on the dashboard
jamira
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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OK, this is one of those friend of a friend whose coworker has a cousin who knows a guy who's an EMT technician stories. Apparently, a guy was driving along a highway, some sort of appliance fell off a pick up truck ahead of him, and he swerved to avoid it, but in the process bumped the highway divider, causing the airbags to deploy. There was only cosmetic damage to the car, however, his girlfriend, who had her feet resting on the dashboard while sitting in the passenger seat, was killed (or seriously injured depending on who's doing the telling) when the airbag inflated, ramming her knees into her head. Any truth to it? Anyone heard of this story?
Now, I know a rear facing baby seat can kill or injure a baby if the airbag deploys, as crash testing has shown, but an adult having her knees bashed against her head? Pretty sure she'd have a severe headache or concussion, but death?
Anyone?

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Little Pink Pill
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Your story sounds like a UL to me, but perhaps one based in truth? There are plenty of warnings out about putting your feet on the dashboard of a car equipped with airbags, which deploy with "violent" force. I can see the theoretical possibility of death or at least serious injury.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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While I don't know if it happened like that or not, airbags definately have a lot of force, especially when you are not as far from it as you should be according to design, and having your feet on the dashboard could very well kill you. At the very least, expect to get you legs, knees, face and possibly hips seriously smashed, disjointed and broken.

Remember, these devices are made to catch a body travelling at high speeds at very short notice. They are not cute inflatable toys, they are a bomb with a balloon. I've seen airbags taken out of car wrecks and placed upon the gound and a wheel, complete with rim and all, fire the wheel some 20 m up in the air for demonstration purposes. Imagine getting hit by a car wheel falling from 20 m squarely on the back side of your legs while you are more or less in a jack knife position. To quote the ECW theme song: "Something's gotta break".

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/Troberg

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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If your knees hit your face hard enough, yes, I think they could kill you, and as Troberg points out, there's a great deal of force behind an inflating airbag.

As a short adult, I'm very conscious of airbag dangers. I push the seat back as far as I safely can, and incline the seat until my arms are fully extended while gripping the wheel. But when you're not quite 5'1", there's only so far you can get from the wheel and still be able to drive.

BTW, the reason airbags deploy with such force is that they were designed to protect unbelted passengers. To quote Ray Magliozzi of NPR's "Cartalk":

quote:
That means that some responsible people who are wearing their seat belts are in unnecessary danger because the federal government decided to use over-powered airbags to protect the morons who refuse to buckle up.
Link

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
BTW, the reason airbags deploy with such force is that they were designed to protect unbelted passengers. To quote Ray Magliozzi of NPR's "Cartalk":
True for USA, but not for Europe. There is a much higher belt usage here, so cars sold here are equipped with smaller airbags. Our airbags also does not extend as far up as the US ones, because the belt stops you from going that far.

There is also a strong movement among traffic safety specialists to remove airbags completely from the passenger seat, as they provide little protection to a belted passenger, but in some situations pose a serious risk. The only reason the driver needs it is because he/she has the steering wheel to slam their face into.

My personal idea of the simplest possible safety imrovement of cars is to replace the steering wheel with a stick beside the seat. If you can land an F-18 on an aircraft carrier using a stick, you can drive a car with one, and you have much more space in front of you before you hit something. That, and of course to replace the engine with a jet engine.

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/Troberg

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
BTW, the reason airbags deploy with such force is that they were designed to protect unbelted passengers. To quote Ray Magliozzi of NPR's "Cartalk":
True for USA, but not for Europe. There is a much higher belt usage here, so cars sold here are equipped with smaller airbags. Our airbags also does not extend as far up as the US ones, because the belt stops you from going that far.
Thank you for explaining, I wasn't aware of that. I have to say, though, that I don't think the lower seatbelt usage in the US justifies the more powerful airbags. I resent being endangered because of something I can't control (my height) in order to protect people from the risks they face due to behavior they could control (seatbelt usage).

ETA: I also consider it bad policy. [Wink]

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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My friend and his wife were in an accident where the airbags were deployed (a Jeep Grand Cherokee). She had her feet up on the dash. It didn't kill her, but gave her a nice "shiner". She is an older person and (as she says) her legs aren't able to bend enough to touch her head, but during that accident, they did. Her legs (and head) hurt for a long time, but again, it didn't kill her.

It is only one (but verifiable) data point.

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I'm glad your friend wasn't killed, but that doesn't mean death isn't possible in the same situation.

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
I'm glad your friend wasn't killed, but that doesn't mean death isn't possible in the same situation.

Oh, I agree. That is why I called it ONE data point. If the UL was EVERYONE gets killed in that situation, I have the counter example. If the UL is you CAN get killed, then my example is just ONE data point against.

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Unusual Elfin Lights
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
.... That, and of course to replace the engine with a jet engine.

[lol]

[UEL to Doug4.7]Doug, don't tell Chimera, that one point would be reason enough to stop the airbag program.[/UEL to Doug4.7]

I'm not doubting that airbags could kill; we hear enough news stories of young people killed by airbags daily, but my question is: would just rubbing a guard rail, causing only cosmetic damage to a car, be enough force to deploy the airbag.

I smashed into a deer at 90 kmh and my airbag did not deploy. I was always under the impression that it required an impact from the front and rapid deceleration in order for the airbag to deploy.

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geminilee
The First USA Noel


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I got hit from the side, the back half of the car, and had airbag deployment. Those things are a bit random.

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"Accompanied by the ghosts of dolphins, the ghost of a ship sailed on..." Terry Pratchett

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by geminilee:
I got hit from the side, the back half of the car, and had airbag deployment. Those things are a bit random.

In my truck, there is a sensor IN the bumper. While working on it, the manual tells me NOT TO TOUCH that sensor unless I've deactivated the airbag system. I bet if I smashed that sensor with a hammer, it would set off the airbags (no, I will NOT do it).

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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I think that if someone were traveling with their feet up on the dashboard and were to be injured when the airbag deployed, and were to attempt to sue the manufacteror for their injuries, that it would be pointed out that airbags as well as seatbelts are designed to protect people who are sitting correctly.

The statistics consistently show that many more lives are saved with airbags than without.
A google search will find you plenty of sites but here's one.

http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edudev/LabTutorials/Airbags/airbags.html

and another.
http://www.bedfordcountyso.org/resources/automotive/Air_Bag_Safety.htm

from that second article:
A: It is important to remember that the number of drivers killed by air bags is small and that many more drivers are saved by air bags than are killed by them. A majority of the drivers killed by an air bag were not using their safety belts.



Others were positioned too close to the steering wheel at the time of the air bag deployment. All drivers need to be properly belted and sit as far away from the air bag as possible to allow the air bag to deploy.



Air bag risk is minimal if a driver can sit 10 to 12 inches or more away from the steering wheel. Short drivers should move the driver's seat rearward to allow space between the driver's chest and the steering wheel, and the seat back should be tilted back slightly.



To the extent possible, the driver should hold the steering wheel from the sides so that his or her arms are not between the driver and the air bag. The arm positioning reduces the risk of arm and hand injuries.



While NHTSA has not analyzed the ease of use or safety implications of pedal blocks or extenders, it is aware that they are available for use by short stature drivers.



Q: Is it safe for short adults to be seated in the front passenger seat of a vehicle equipped with a passenger-side air bag?



A: Yes. However, all passengers should be properly restrained, regardless of size. All front seat passengers (adults and children) should move the seat as far rearward as possible, and recline the seat back slightly.



In order to allow the air bag to deploy safely, front seat passengers should avoid leaning or reaching forward and should remain seated against the vehicle seat back, with as little slack in the belt as possible to minimize forward movement in a crash.



Q: Is it safe for elderly people to be seated in front of an air bag?



A: Elderly people, like all other drivers and front seat passengers, should be properly restrained and should move the seat as far rearward as possible, being careful to remain seated against the vehicle seat back and keeping the arms away from the area in which the air bag will deploy.

***

I know somebody "in the industry" as they say and if airbags were to cause more injury or death rather than prevent it, they would most assuredly take them out. Because deaths = lawsuits and nothing talks like money. If airbags caused more damage than they saved, they would not continue using them.

The auto industry fought and objected to putting airbags in for years and years because of the cost. After they finally started using them, they actually found that they were cost effective because of the high level of protection from deaths and injuries they provide.

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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liebeslied
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
BTW, the reason airbags deploy with such force is that they were designed to protect unbelted passengers. To quote Ray Magliozzi of NPR's "Cartalk":
True for USA, but not for Europe. There is a much higher belt usage here, so cars sold here are equipped with smaller airbags. Our airbags also does not extend as far up as the US ones, because the belt stops you from going that far.

So in theory, could an American mail-order a European airbag and have it installed in place of the overpowered deathbag?
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Lil' Molly
Deck the Malls


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Looks like American auto makers are switching to the less aggressive anyway. Maybe your dealer can retrofit.

ETA: Also, for anyone interested, this paper talks about the differences between North American and European/Australian systems. Also, when I read the manual for my car (VW) it said something to the effect that the airbags were not designed to work independantly of the seat belts.

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... and now back to your regularly scheduled lurking.

I have 15 points and owe 1 keyboard!

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Nion
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
[QUOTE]
My personal idea of the simplest possible safety imrovement of cars is to replace the steering wheel with a stick beside the seat. If you can land an F-18 on an aircraft carrier using a stick, you can drive a car with one, and you have much more space in front of you before you hit something.

Saab was working with this idea a number of years ago. There was a joystick in between and slightly forward of the front seats that could be moved side to side. The on-board computer measured the speed of the vehicle and automatically adjusted the sensitivity of the joystick. Slower speeds would make it more responsive, while high speeds would lower the joysticks sensitivity. I unfortunately have no cites, as I saw a story on this on television years ago.

Again, no cites but I remember hearing a couple of years ago about development of a SRS (Safety Restraint System, i.e. airbags) that would similarly measure speed of the vehicle. Below a certain threshold the bags would deploy more slowly, and below another threshold would not deploy at all (read: parking lot fender-benders).

Relic "full of hot air" Man

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It can't rain all the time.

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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IMS, SRS means Supplemental Restraint System.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Nion
We Three Blings


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I've heard it both ways. I do believe yours is the correct term, however. My bad. [Smile]

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
I have to say, though, that I don't think the lower seatbelt usage in the US justifies the more powerful airbags.
I agree, and so does a study made on the subject. In fact, the larger airbags lowers belt usage, as some people think that airbags is an alternative to belts, not a complement.

quote:
My friend and his wife were in an accident where the airbags were deployed (a Jeep Grand Cherokee). She had her feet up on the dash. It didn't kill her, but gave her a nice "shiner".
My guess is that she was saved by being in a large vehicle and by being fairly short, preventing her from jackknifing herself completely.

quote:
I'm not doubting that airbags could kill; we hear enough news stories of young people killed by airbags daily, but my question is: would just rubbing a guard rail, causing only cosmetic damage to a car, be enough force to deploy the airbag.

I smashed into a deer at 90 kmh and my airbag did not deploy. I was always under the impression that it required an impact from the front and rapid deceleration in order for the airbag to deploy.

This varies a lot between vehicles. It also depends on how "solid" the impact is, which direction it comes from, where it hits the car, how the impact is transfered through the car and pure luck.

There are quite a few accidents where what should only have been a fender bender has become fatal, as the air bag has deployed and knocked the driver out cold, causing the vehicle to swerve into oncoming traffic.

The traffic safety specialists I've worked with has pretty much discounted airbags as as safety measure, instead favouring belts and sturdier cars.

quote:
I bet if I smashed that sensor with a hammer, it would set off the airbags (no, I will NOT do it).
Please, please, please try it. Make sure you film it though. It would be a great move for us to claim to be false!

quote:
The statistics consistently show that many more lives are saved with airbags than without.
Swedish studies do not agree with that. I'll see if I can dig them up. For the interested, they and many other cutting edge traffic studies can be found somewhere at the Swedish national road traffic institute:

http://www.vti.se (the site is currently down, don't know why)

It's also important to remember some other dangers:

* Danger to rescue crews. This is a serious danger, and an undeployed airbag may prevent them from attempting rescue until a certain safety time has passed or a special air bag buster tool is latched onto the steering wheel. This tool is for the driver's position only, so passenger and side airbags will still prevent them from doing their job.
* Danger to car mechanics. It's not so nice if the airbag deploys while you are crawling around under the dashboard trying to work with the electrical system.
* Dangers of old systems. The cars with airbags are still fairly new and well taken care of. How well will these system work when they are rust buckets that some teen amateur mechanic has bought for less than the sound system he has installed using the trial and error method? It's a fair assumption that their reliability will not increase over time...

As the statistics usually are from traffic accidents only, these dangers are not really represented.

quote:
So in theory, could an American mail-order a European airbag and have it installed in place of the overpowered deathbag?
Probably, but I don't know if it would be legal according to your rules.

quote:
Saab was working with this idea a number of years ago. There was a joystick in between and slightly forward of the front seats that could be moved side to side.
Well, they have used such a system in some of their vehicles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab

As I side note, I saw several of those at an air show this weekend, including the SAAB JAS 39 Gripen. Not wanting to brag, but the stock JAS completely outmanouvered the Dutch F-16 (which was stripped down for airshows). Granted, F-16 is 20 years older, but it is still nice to see that a tiny nation like Sweden still can make decent fighter aircraft. Shot some really nice photos of them.

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/Troberg

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
My friend and his wife were in an accident where the airbags were deployed (a Jeep Grand Cherokee). She had her feet up on the dash. It didn't kill her, but gave her a nice "shiner".
My guess is that she was saved by being in a large vehicle and by being fairly short, preventing her from jackknifing herself completely.
All I know is her black eye was from her feet (or knee?) hitting her head/eye. She is about 5' 8" and is in good health for her age (60s?). She was wearing a seatbelt.

Again, it's only a single datapoint.

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Casey, making hot chocolate
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by geminilee:
I got hit from the side, the back half of the car, and had airbag deployment. Those things are a bit random.

In my truck, there is a sensor IN the bumper. While working on it, the manual tells me NOT TO TOUCH that sensor unless I've deactivated the airbag system. I bet if I smashed that sensor with a hammer, it would set off the airbags (no, I will NOT do it).
My car has the same basic thing, but the airbag sensors are under the hood, on the sidewalls. Smaller airbag (German car), and those things are supposedly very sensitive.

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Donovan
Deck the Malls


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I saw another demonstrator car that had instead of a joystick, had a small dial with a grip handle in the center council. You held it like a joystick, but twisting it instead of leaning it. Personally I thought it was pretty cool and I would be willing to give it a try at least.

Of course, this would just encourage those who like to sit with thier seats past a 45 degree angle.

da Donovan

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Donovan
Deck the Malls


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And another thing, is there a federal reg that requires a 'stearing wheel'? Or can we use any system that offers sufficient control levels?

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Illius me paenitet, dux (Latin for fun and business)

"It's like trying to hawk pork chops at a kosher PETA banquet." - Esprise Me

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Mickey Blue
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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I don't keep my feet up on the dash for just the reason mentioned in the OP, while I've never personally seen it happen, the logic train pretty much seals it for me.

I have seen people knock out teeth from riding with their hand on top (at 12) of the steering wheel and end up punching themselves in the mouth, I've also seen the bags go off after the fact and take out (not kill) rescue workers..

Needless to say they are very powerful tools and used wrong (which involves how you position yourself since you cannot access the mechanism itself without training) can be dangerous or, I have no doubt, fatal.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
And another thing, is there a federal reg that requires a 'stearing wheel'? Or can we use any system that offers sufficient control levels?
I'm pretty sure other controls are allowed, as they are frequently used on cars adapted for different handicaps.

I have a small anecdote about that. A friend of mine worked with adapting cars (and other stuff) for people with special needs. At some time, he and his collegues were facing the problem of getting a car to be possible to operate by both ordinary controls and very specialised controls. They discussed various methods of the controls "folding" into the dashboard, but there simple was not room enough and they couldn't make it work. The discussed solutions for a couple of days and made increasingly complicated mockups to try various ideas, but it didn't work out. When he got home, he told his wife about the problem, and she just looked at him and said "Why don't you put one set of controls on the passenger side?", and that's what they did the next day.

quote:
I have seen people knock out teeth from riding with their hand on top (at 12) of the steering wheel and end up punching themselves in the mouth, I've also seen the bags go off after the fact and take out (not kill) rescue workers..
Rescue personell has very strict restriction on how they can work around an undeployed air bag here in Sweden. On some car models, it may be up to half an hour before they are allowed to go in (unless they have those spiked claw jaws thingies that clamp on to the steering wheel that tears up the air bag if it deploys).

If you are working right in front of the air bag in a twisted position, which is not that unlikely if you are rescueing people from a wrecked car (or poking around with the electronics under the dashboard...), it could easily break your neck.

On all cars I've owned with air bags except the current car (I have not gotten around to it yet), I've disconnected them for safety reasons. I always use a belt, there is little need for an air bag. I should probably put a sticker on the window that informs mechanics and rescue staff that the airbags are disarmed.

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/Troberg

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abigsmurf
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
The traffic safety specialists I've worked with has pretty much discounted airbags as as safety measure, instead favouring belts and sturdier cars.
But surely sturdier cars are more dangerous? Crumple zones significantly lower the g-force acting on all the passengers.

Putting your feet one the dashboard seems a horribly dangerous thing to do anyway, airbag or not. It'll cause a lot of the forward force you have in a crash to be forced through your legs to your pelvis. God knows what that would do to your spine.

On the subject of airbag safty. Statistics show just how much they prevent serious or terminal head injuries. I imagine seatbelts have been responsible for lots of deaths and major injuries either due to whiplash or not being able to release them in an emergency.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
But surely sturdier cars are more dangerous? Crumple zones significantly lower the g-force acting on all the passengers.
What I meant was actually larger cars, which means more crumple zones and more air and metal around you.

quote:
On the subject of airbag safty. Statistics show just how much they prevent serious or terminal head injuries.
Not Swedish statistics, and in this area we are so much ahead of the rest of the world that anyone else is simply inferior.

Also, remember that statistics only show one side. They do not show when airbags caused accidents to get worse. We've had accidents which would have been a harmless fenderbender, but the airbag deployed and knocked out the driver, causing the car to swerve into oncoming traffic. Seat belts don't do that kind of damage.

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/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
DrMerkwuerdig
I Saw Three Shipments


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quote:
Originally posted by abigsmurf:

I imagine seatbelts have been responsible for lots of deaths and major injuries either due to whiplash or not being able to release them in an emergency.

¨

That may be true, but an accident with a quick enough deceleration to cause whiplash would throw a non-seatbelt wearing person through the front window, almost certainly causing dangerous cuts and most likely killing through a blow to the head.
Also, it is rarely necessary to quickly get out of a car after an accident. Cars do not explode or burn often, and if you are so severely injured that you have to get help immediately, crawling out of your car is not going to help much.

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Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity

Posts: 91 | From: Vienna, Austria | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Cars do not explode or burn often
Unless, of course, the accident happens in Hollywood, in which case they always explode.

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/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
abigsmurf
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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however if your car has been hit and it's spun so it's blocking the road, it may be in your best interests to get out ASAP
Posts: 824 | From: England | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
however if your car has been hit and it's spun so it's blocking the road, it may be in your best interests to get out ASAP
Usually, it's over so fast that you don't have time to get out. Any longer than that and the cars have time to stop. Probably better to stay in the car where you at least have some steel around you, instead of taking the risk of getting hit outside the car and possibly squished between your car and another car.

I think there are a couple of situations where it makes sense to get out immediately, otherwise wait until things stop moving around you. These situations are:

* You've hit a tanker with toxic/flammable contents.
* Your car is about to go over an edge.
* You are being chased by the cops and need to run.
* The car is full of rabid squirrels and you are not wearing any pants.
* The fuel tank has burst and there is petrol all over the place.
* The car is in flames. I'm talking of a real blaze here, not just some small fire.
* The guy who hit you/the guy you hit comes at you with a gun/tire iron.

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/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Having been in a couple of accidents where the seatbelts stopped me, I'll take the bruises they left me with over the alternative any time. And rushing to get out of the car after an accident seems foolhardy to me. I'd rather be in a car that gets hit by another car than be a pedestrian who gets hit by a car.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Also, you are not thinking clearly the first few moments after a crash. Get your thoughts in order, check that you have approximately the right number of limbs and can feel them all, check that you are not bleeding, have bits of car sticking into your anatomy or bits of anatomy hanging out, check any other passengers.

Then, if it seems wise, get out.

Before you have time to get out, things have stopped happening quickly anyway, so it's well spent time to do this check list.

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/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
wanderwoman
Bluetooth Christmas


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quote:
* The car is full of rabid squirrels and you are not wearing any pants.
Where's a squirrel icon when you need one?

Are you speaking from personal experience on this one, Troberg? [lol]

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"But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home
NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language

Posts: 851 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Are you speaking from personal experience on this one, Troberg?
Nope, it just seemed like a typical situation when it's good to get out of the car. Quickly.

I forgot one circumstance where it's also important to get out:

* If the car is under water. Unhook the belt, take a big breath, lower the window to let water in (otherwise you can't open the door), open the door and follow the bubbles to the surface.

We had a really nasty incident some 20 years ago, when a ship hit a bridge in the middle of a dark winter night. The bridge was of a bow design, so visibility of the road surface was poor at best. Before someone managed to stop and stop other cars, seven cars, with eight people, went over the edge and fell over 40 m down into the ice cold water.

The lower picture is the old bridge, the upper is the new bridge built to replace it:

http://www.tjorn.se/innehall/misc/tjornbroarna/tjornbron.4.5733b8a71081e46f844800057720.html

The angle and lens compresses the perspective, the bow was not as steep as it looks.

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/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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