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Author Topic: Speed limits
RichardM
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker:
RichardM, why is so important that you make it clear that you're willing to make purportedly factual statements but not willing to do the work to back them up?
>snip<
Seaboe

Because I am at work trying to complete the lighting design for a section of Texas Highway SH45. A simple Google search on the term "85 percentile speed" will provide the proof any one needs for that argument. The research for the other 2 arguments takes a little more time. Citing oneself is not considered kosher by many on this board. This even when the citer is qualified to testify in court as an expert witness on the matter in question. No I am not on speed limits, I just work very close with those who are.
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WildaBeast
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Dogwater:
My gut tells me (how scientific is that?), as Dark Blue said, that troopers are out there to ensure safe driving; not to generate revenue...

I agree, and I have an anecdote along those lines. A few years ago I was driving home from college on a rural two lane road. It was nighttime, and several cars flashed their headlights at me. I couldn't figure out why; my lights were on (I'm not a gang member [Smile] ) and my high beams were not on.

Then when I got over the next hill I figured it out. There was a police car parked beside the road, in a highly visible spot, with it's lights flashing. It was obvious to me that wasn't trying to ticket anyone; that would be the worst possible way to set up a speed trap. He (or she) probably wanted to be seen so drivers would slow down. For all I know there may not have even been enyone in the car.* Yet other drivers were trying to warn me about this "speed trap."

*My hometown's police department tried that once. They parked a broken down police car beside the road and put a dummy in the driver's seat to try to get drivers to slow down. It worked for a while until people figured out that it wasn't a real cop.

quote:
Also, I believe it's federal that *anything* over 80 is considered reckless (someone correct this if I'm mistaken).
I don't know if it's a Federal law (actually I doubt it is), but when I turned 16 my dad had our insurance agent talk to me. She said they will double your insurance rates it you get a ticket for going any speed faster than 75 (I think... It may have been 80). Maybe that's what you were thinking.

That was in the days when the national speed limit was still 65. They may have updated that policy now that there are places with 70 and 75 mph speed limits.

--------------------
"Unseasonable is an odd word to begin with. It sounds like it's describing something that it's impossible to sprinkle pepper on." -- Nonny

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Seaboe Muffinchucker
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by RichardM:
Because I am at work...

I guess I'm over sensitive currently due to recent flair ups of "why should I do your research for you."

Simply saying "I'm at work and can't provide cites" I think would be perfectly acceptable.

Thank you very much for explaining.

Seaboe

--------------------
Education is not the filling of a hard drive, but the lighting of a bulb. -- Yeats via Esprise Me

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RubyMoon
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
I have had 3 speeding tickets ever, 1 in Ohio and 2 in Virginia, all three were for going 76 in a 65 zone. A lot of it probably has to do with where you are. On the Washington DC beltway, the speed limit is 55mph but only an idiot goes that slow. I generally go around 70 and that's about the normal flow of traffic. With so many cars on the beltway, I can't see the cops stopping anyone going under 75...you'd just be picking cars at random. Since 20 over is a reckless driving charge, I think that that's more than likely the unofficial cut-off point.

pinqy

How in the world do people travel 75mph on the DC beltway, every time I've been down that way traffic was lucky to moving at 30mph, except on the sholder where people were going 40
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noysey
The Swordfish in the Stone


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I remember a newspaper article that proves the quota system theory.

When a motorist was pulled over for speeding he asked the officer if he was expected to give a certain number of tickets.

The officer's reply: "Yup, two more today and I get a toaster".

On a more serious note: When a hand held radar scope is used on a large number of cars can an individual car be singled out?

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Errata
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by RichardM:
Citing oneself is not considered kosher by many on this board. This even when the citer is qualified to testify in court as an expert witness on the matter in question. No I am not on speed limits, I just work very close with those who are.

This is an urban legend message board. If "trust me, I know what I'm talking about" were adequate proof, then every urban legend would be marked as true. Or better yet, you're claiming affiliation with experts rather than direct expertise, which is a variant on "this happened to someone I know and they wouldn't lie!!!"
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WildaBeast
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Errata:
quote:
Originally posted by RichardM:
Citing oneself is not considered kosher by many on this board. This even when the citer is qualified to testify in court as an expert witness on the matter in question. No I am not on speed limits, I just work very close with those who are.

This is an urban legend message board. If "trust me, I know what I'm talking about" were adequate proof, then every urban legend would be marked as true. Or better yet, you're claiming affiliation with experts rather than direct expertise, which is a variant on "this happened to someone I know and they wouldn't lie!!!"
I don't think it's completely wrong to say somethink along the lines "I work in X industry and this is how we do things..." if you actually are an expert on the subject matter. In this thread, for example, Dark Blue is an actual police officer. Of course he can't speak for every police department in the country, but if he were to say "We do not have quotas where I work," I think most us would accept that. I don't think we'd see many people asking for documents to prove that that really is his department's policy.

Likewise, I don't think we would accept "my friend once told me..." However, "I showed this thread to my friend, who is a traffic engineer, and he said..." I think would carry at least some weight.

--------------------
"Unseasonable is an odd word to begin with. It sounds like it's describing something that it's impossible to sprinkle pepper on." -- Nonny

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Errata
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Sure its valid to discuss anything you know about or to bring your friends opinions into the discussion if they know more. But your credentials alone shouldnt be considered proof of your opinions, certainly not to the extent of a cite. Particularly online, where its easy to misrepresent yourself, your knowledge about a controversial point of fact is only as good as your evidence for it.
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Arpiby
I Am Curious, Yellowtail


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Slightly off-topic but related question: I've heard from several acquaintances before that if you're speeding a moderate amount (say, enough that you might get busted but not enough that you will automatically get busted) and you spot a cop, you'll be better off if you refrain from hitting the brakes, the argument being that if the cop sees you braking that "proves" you were speeding and gives them more solid justification for deciding to pull you over. Obviously this is something that would vary from one police officer to another, but has anyone actually heard an officer saying they do this (or even that their coworkers do it)? It sounds pretty bogus to me.
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Errata
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Arpiby, just backing your foot off from the accelerator will slow you down pretty effectively, without any brake lights or eye catching sudden deceleration. Cops are human beings too, not omniscient, so there is some truth to the fact that acting guilty will draw their attention.

A similar situation is if you are pulled over and something is wrong, don't let yourself glance at the thing thats wrong, or they'll just be more likely to track what you're looking at. I recently hit a random checkpoint for drunk drivers and it suddenly dawned on me that I'd forgotten my seatbelt. My first instinct was to just buckle up right there, but instead I did nothing about it. Maybe they just didn't care, but I think they're supposed to be taking that seriously lately, so I think drawing their attention to it could only have increased my odds of getting a ticket. Although I wouldn't go in the opposite direction and actively try to feign non-chalance either (e.g. the stereotypical drunk driver effusively chatting up the officer), because thats pretty transparent too.

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glisp42
I'm Dreaming Of A White iPod


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downshifting in a manual is a good way to slow down without hitting the brakes.

most automatics have a gear select as well so if you take your foot off the accelerator and pop the gear select into first it will do a nice job of slowing you down.

That being said, slowing down suddenly without using your brakes is a pretty dumb idea outside of an emergency situation. If you don't use your brakes, you don't use your brakelights and that's a good way to get run over.

--------------------
What does "Bookachow", "YOMANK" and other lingo mean?

And we'll collect the moments one by one I guess that's how the future's done. -Feist

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ParaDiddle
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Downshifting in a manual tansmission is a good way to wear out your clutch. Replacing a worn clutch can be up to four times more expensive than replacing worn brakes.

Downshifting should only be done to adjust your transmission to the lower speed you just used your brakes to slow down to.

- P

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Roadie
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by glisp42:
most automatics have a gear select as well so if you take your foot off the accelerator and pop the gear select into first it will do a nice job of slowing you down.

[Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!]

How fast are you going when this is a good idea???

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"The little local company I buy from has CHEAP shipping and I have met their goats." (snapdragonfly)

"And that's one lost erection I'll never get back! You hear me Dan! I'm owed an erection!" (I'mNotDedalus)

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Buzzbomb
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by noysey:
I remember a newspaper article that proves the quota system theory.

When a motorist was pulled over for speeding he asked the officer if he was expected to give a certain number of tickets.

The officer's reply: "Yup, two more today and I get a toaster".

On a more serious note: When a hand held radar scope is used on a large number of cars can an individual car be singled out?

When I lived in Arizona my employer sent me to a seminar in which the instructor was a retired Tempe police sergeant. He told us the Tempe PD did not have quotas, but the more tickets you issued, the higher ranked you were on your periodic evaluations. He implied de facto quotas were quite common.
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noysey
The Swordfish in the Stone


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This is Pretty UL-ish. A friend of mine told me that the CHP (chips) officers at the eastbound exit of the Caldecott tunnel (leaving San Francisco-Oakland for suburbia) will in the evening watch for people who hit their brakes on the downward slope just as they leave the tunnel.
They are not looking for speeders. Apparently hitting your brakes there is a good indication that you have been drinking.

It kinda makes sense. Suburban commuters to S.F.-Oakland would enjoy a little happy hour after work before going home, and anyone who drives that road knows that ther are always CHP lurking on the oncoming roads when you leave the tunnel.

So you think "Hey, a couple of drinks, better slow down here, cops watching". You just raised a red flag.

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Shadowduck
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by ParaDiddle:
Downshifting in a manual tansmission is a good way to wear out your clutch. Replacing a worn clutch can be up to four times more expensive than replacing worn brakes.

Downshifting should only be done to adjust your transmission to the lower speed you just used your brakes to slow down to.

- P

Thank you, Captain Sensible. [Wink]

There are times when changing down is just a better option, and sod the clutch wear - I usually use a combination of gears / clutch / brakes, especially when driving fast on a bendy road (better control) and I've never changed a clutch yet so it can't do that much damage.

I will admit, though, that it seriously shortens chain life on bikes. Then again, it also makes the exhaust note sound lovely... I don't mind changing the chain a bit more often. [Big Grin]

--------------------
But of course, I could be wrong.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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I engine brake a lot and have only worn out one clutch in almost 20 years, and that was probably more due to a bad habit of keeping the clutch pressed when waiting in an intersection and dragracing from each redlight. Besides, replacing a clutch is not that expensive. Try loading boats on trailers a lot, that will kill the clutch.

But, if you want to slow down without brake lights and without engine braking (which can easily be heard), just use the parking brake. It will slow you down, but the brake lights will remain dark.

This can also be used if you are driving a crappy car and some expensive car is close enough to almost scratch the paint on your rear bumper. Just yank the parking brake, no lights to warn him, so he'll bump your car and he will be the one who will be paying for the damage on both cars. There is probably some rule against this though , so don't go bragging about it.

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/Troberg

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Shadowduck
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Troberg, I really wish you wouldn't agree with me like this...

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
I engine brake a lot and have only worn out one clutch in almost 20 years, and that was probably more due to a bad habit of keeping the clutch pressed when waiting in an intersection and dragracing from each redlight. Besides, replacing a clutch is not that expensive. Try loading boats on trailers a lot, that will kill the clutch.

...then give dangerous advice like this...

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
But, if you want to slow down without brake lights and without engine braking (which can easily be heard), just use the parking brake. It will slow you down, but the brake lights will remain dark.

...and this...

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
This can also be used if you are driving a crappy car and some expensive car is close enough to almost scratch the paint on your rear bumper. Just yank the parking brake, no lights to warn him, so he'll bump your car and he will be the one who will be paying for the damage on both cars. There is probably some rule against this though , so don't go bragging about it.

People might get the impression that agreement on one point implies agreement on the others.

As I'm sure you know, pulling the handbrake while moving is an excellent way of causing a car to spin or slide, and is used by stunt / rally drivers for that effect. Anyone trying it for the first time while over the speed limit in an effort to avoid a ticket is more than likely going to end up in the ditch. Attempting to deliberately involve another driver in said self-inflicted accident, however badly they're driving, would be nothing short of criminal.

--------------------
But of course, I could be wrong.

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glisp42
I'm Dreaming Of A White iPod


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The handbrake should be used in only three situations:
1)To park(duh)

2)In an emergency where the brakes have failed(and expect to wind up in a ditch)

3)On a front wheel drive car when it is EXTREMLY slick outside on hills and ONLY if you know EXACTLY what your doing.

--------------------
What does "Bookachow", "YOMANK" and other lingo mean?

And we'll collect the moments one by one I guess that's how the future's done. -Feist

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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Shadowduck wrote:
quote:
I will admit, though, that it seriously shortens chain life on bikes. Then again, it also makes the exhaust note sound lovely... I don't mind changing the chain a bit more often.
Amen, brother [Big Grin] But you can solve your chain problems if you get a belt-driven Buell, and put a Vance and Hines end-can on it. The finest music in the world!
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resident deity
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowduck:
There are times when changing down is just a better option, and sod the clutch wear - I usually use a combination of gears / clutch / brakes, especially when driving fast on a bendy road (better control) and I've never changed a clutch yet so it can't do that much damage.

I have to agree; as I learnt to drive on narrow Yorkshire roads ("Two cars on a road side by side! What does tha want that for!") which were muddy and icy the engine brake is the best way to control your speed. About the only way to do it in snow too...

I've worn out one clutch and that was on a car I'd had for 6 years.

To go back to earlier discussions, speed cameras are set up depending on the "danger" of the road and how much money the local police department needs - so they can be the old 10% + 2mph or much lower. The only time I got caught I was doing 46mph in a 40 zone (and it should have been a 60 zone too).

I guess our police force is more mercenary than the US one.

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The Amazing Rando
Deck the Malls


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quote:
The handbrake should be used in only three situations:
1)To park(duh)

2)In an emergency where the brakes have failed(and expect to wind up in a ditch)

3)On a front wheel drive car when it is EXTREMLY slick outside on hills and ONLY if you know EXACTLY what your doing.

How about starting on a hill in a manual? You don't need it but it makes stop signs a lot easier if there are a lot of people behind you and you don't want to risk rolling back into them.
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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by The Amazing Rando:
quote:
The handbrake should be used in only three situations:
1)To park(duh)

2)In an emergency where the brakes have failed(and expect to wind up in a ditch)

3)On a front wheel drive car when it is EXTREMLY slick outside on hills and ONLY if you know EXACTLY what your doing.

How about starting on a hill in a manual? You don't need it but it makes stop signs a lot easier if there are a lot of people behind you and you don't want to risk rolling back into them.
I haven't heard that before. If your clutch skillz are mad, that shouldn't be a problem.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Errata
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by The Amazing Rando:
quote:
The handbrake should be used in only three situations:
1)To park(duh)

2)In an emergency where the brakes have failed(and expect to wind up in a ditch)

3)On a front wheel drive car when it is EXTREMLY slick outside on hills and ONLY if you know EXACTLY what your doing.

How about starting on a hill in a manual? You don't need it but it makes stop signs a lot easier if there are a lot of people behind you and you don't want to risk rolling back into them.
I don't understand how this is easier. It sounds harder than the alternative of just pushing brake and clutch with your left foot.

You engine breakers are crazy. I'd be terrified to try it at high speeds.

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Shadowduck
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quote:
Originally posted by Errata:
quote:
Originally posted by The Amazing Rando:
How about starting on a hill in a manual? You don't need it but it makes stop signs a lot easier if there are a lot of people behind you and you don't want to risk rolling back into them.

I don't understand how this is easier. It sounds harder than the alternative of just pushing brake and clutch with your left foot.

You engine breakers are crazy. I'd be terrified to try it at high speeds.

You are joking, right? Have you ever driven a car with manual transmission? Trying to control the clutch and brake (and there's fairly fine control needed for a succesful hill start) with the same foot is easier than using the handbrake? [lol] You certainly wouldn't pass a UK driving test if you tried that little trick.

The normal way to do it, and the way everyone (certainly in this country) is taught to do it is; handbrake on, little bit of throttle, get the clutch biting, release handbrake, drive away. This is very easy and requires no thought at all with a little practice. I can do it without the handbrake (thanks to driving a Vectra with a very weak handbrake for a couple of years) but that just involves going from braking with the clutch disengaged to clutch / throttle balance very quickly.

If you think engine braking is "crazy", again I can only assume you've never driven anything with manual transmission - either that or you have astonishingly poor clutch control.

--------------------
But of course, I could be wrong.

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Dark Blue
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Trying to control the clutch and brake (and there's fairly fine control needed for a succesful hill start) with the same foot is easier than using the handbrake?
I don't use the same foot for clutch and brake, I use same foot for brake and gas. Everyone I know who drives a manual drives it this way as well. Maybe we just do it differently on opposite sides of the pond I dunno.

--------------------
I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf. -- On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs by LTC. Dave Grossman, USA (Ret)

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Errata
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Yes, I've only ever owned manual transmissions, and I only ever use the hand brake (aka the emergency brake/parking brake) for parking. My first car was a cj-7 with a pretty terrible parking brake (and not a hand operated one), and I was explicitly taught to use the clutch and brake to start up hills. My next car was totally different, but driving is a deeply ingrained unconscious motor skill, not something that adapts to whatever is technically correct for the car.

There is a world of difference between not being able to control your clutch and forcing your transmission to drop into an inappropriate gear at high speeds for no good reason. Using a low gear to slow yourself while going down a hill at low speeds maybe, but downshifting at high speeds without even engaging your brakes just seems like it would be a bad thing for your car. Maybe it is not, but its certainly never come up as something I would want to try. My brakes are perfectly sufficient to go from highway speeds to stopped very quickly and in control (which happens sometimes in LA traffic), and I'm sure my clutch is getting quite enough wear and tear as it is and I'd rather not have to replace it before I'm done with the car.

I love the "and my whole country agrees with me about everything" argument. Its classy.

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Errata
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Dark Blue, now that you mention it, you're right, thats how its done. The way I said would be really awkward. But I had to act it out with my feet to see how, because its not something you consciously think about.
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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Shadowduck
As I'm sure you know, pulling the handbrake while moving is an excellent way of causing a car to spin or slide, and is used by stunt / rally drivers for that effect.

I'm not talking about yanking it until the wheels lock, just a gentle pull to slow down.

It's quite fun to do in the winter though, as a quick and easy U-turn. Just get some speed (30-50 km/h), turn the wheel a little, yank the parking brake and turn the wheel all the way. Good thing to learn, but do it in a safe place. Heck, I was taught that when I went to driving school almost 20 years ago.

And never let go of the release button, you want to be able to release the brake at any time!

Frankly, I think it's good to play around with the car (under safe circumstances, of course), as you'll learn how it handles and will know what to do in an emergency. If you have never tried the parking brake you will be in for a nasty surprise when you burst a brake line.

It's a bit like how pilot training differs in different countries. In some, basic aerobatics are included, while others think this is unnecessary as most pilots will not need it. Sure, if you fly a DC10 all day you're not likely to do a looping, but once things start to go wrong, that aerobatic training has given you a feel for how an aircraft will react outside the normal operational envelope. It could very well be the difference between regaining control over the aircraft and a spectacular lawn dart.

Besides, cars are 80% toys and 20% transportation...

quote:
Shadowduck
Attempting to deliberately involve another driver in said self-inflicted accident, however badly they're driving, would be nothing short of criminal.

Actually, that depends a lot on where you live. Here in Sweden, if you get hit from behind it's always the other driver's fault, regardless of how stupid tricks you have played. He should keep a sufficient distance to stop whatever happens.

That said, it's not something I recommend, just a possibility.

quote:
Errata
You engine breakers are crazy. I'd be terrified to try it at high speeds.

In fact, that's the way I prefer to brake at high speeds. When you use the brakes at speeds exceeding 260 km/h (not that I'd publically admit to driving that fast), even a little brake makes the car skittish and slithery. By not downshifting, just letting go of the gas pedal, the engine will brake the car in a nice and controllable manner to a speed where it the brakes starts to work as intended.

--------------------
/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Errata
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
Errata
You engine breakers are crazy. I'd be terrified to try it at high speeds.

In fact, that's the way I prefer to brake at high speeds. When you use the brakes at speeds exceeding 260 km/h (not that I'd publically admit to driving that fast), even a little brake makes the car skittish and slithery. By not downshifting, just letting go of the gas pedal, the engine will brake the car in a nice and controllable manner to a speed where it the brakes starts to work as intended.
I don't know about 160mph (were you on a track I hope?), but I've used my Brembo brakes at 130mph with no loss of control. Engine braking was once a pretty necessary tactic under common circumstances, but brakes have come a long way.
Posts: 2018 | From: Santa Barbara, California | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Shadowduck
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Blue:
quote:
Trying to control the clutch and brake (and there's fairly fine control needed for a succesful hill start) with the same foot is easier than using the handbrake?
I don't use the same foot for clutch and brake, I use same foot for brake and gas. Everyone I know who drives a manual drives it this way as well. Maybe we just do it differently on opposite sides of the pond I dunno.
I also use my right foot for brake and throttle, left for clutch. I was responding to Errata's suggestion of "just pushing brake and clutch with your left foot."

quote:
Originally posted by Errata:
Dark Blue, now that you mention it, you're right, thats how its done. The way I said would be really awkward.

...which was the whole point I was trying to make in my previous post.

quote:
Originally posted by Errata:
*snip*...downshifting at high speeds without even engaging your brakes just seems like it would be a bad thing for your car.

I don't recall saying anything about not using your brakes - in fact I specifically said...

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowduck:
I usually use a combination of gears / clutch / brakes...*snip*

You seem to be under the impression that engine braking is a matter of changing down, dumping the clutch and hoping for the best. It's a lot more subtle than that - a matter of not giving the engine quite enough revs for the road speed, so it assists with braking.

quote:
Originally posted by Errata:
I love the "and my whole country agrees with me about everything" argument. Its classy.

Now that's not what I said at all, is it? I said the handbrake technique is the way everybody in this country is taught to do it (assuming they use a driving instructor) and that you would fail a UK test if you tried to operate two pedals simultaneously with the same foot. I stand by both statements.

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Frankly, I think it's good to play around with the car (under safe circumstances, of course), as you'll learn how it handles and will know what to do in an emergency. If you have never tried the parking brake you will be in for a nasty surprise when you burst a brake line.

If you have never tried the parking brake you will be in for a nasty surprise when you try to use it to avoid a speeding ticket, too. I agree absolutely that it's a good idea to push your car when it's safe and try this stuff out, my point was that using the handbrake at speed is not good advice to give without pointing out how very difficult it is to do it with any kind of control.

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Besides, cars are 80% toys and 20% transportation...

We agree on so many things! [Big Grin] Then we disagree wildly on the details...

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Here in Sweden, if you get hit from behind it's always the other driver's fault, regardless of how stupid tricks you have played. He should keep a sufficient distance to stop whatever happens.

Ditto here. I wasn't discussing the legalities, more the morality. I can see how my use of the word "criminal" was misleading, my apologies.

I suspect this has been my longest post ever. [Smile]

Shadow "I'm not usually this argumentative, honest" Duck

--------------------
But of course, I could be wrong.

Posts: 858 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Steph
I Saw Three Shipments


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Well I think this thread has been beat to death. I think we have it figured out...

Handbrake = Some people
Brakes = Most
Engine Brakes = Few People

Posts: 56 | From: Sturgis, MI | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Come to think of it, the main part that probably takes some damage when engine braking is not the clutch. My guess is that it's the catalytic converter, as unburned fuel is pushed through it. I once burned a cat due to an electronics error that caused the car to think it was -40 Celcius and run full choke all the time. That problem (along with a tow car mechanic who couldn't keep his fingers off what he did not understand) cost me $2000 and a hotel night...

quote:
Errata
I don't know about 160mph (were you on a track I hope?), but I've used my Brembo brakes at 130mph with no loss of control. Engine braking was once a pretty necessary tactic under common circumstances, but brakes have come a long way.

I didn't admit to doing it, so I will not admit to doing it at a track or outside a track either.

Hypothetically speaking, though, my Firebird would probably feel like it's starting to float even with a very careful brake at high speed on an empty highway very early in a light summer morning if I were ever to try it, which I of course don't admit I have done. It would be a hard feeling to define, not loss of control, just a certain potential for loss of control, almost as if some downforce was suddenly lost and with it the stability of the car, purely hypothetically speaking of course.

quote:
Shadowduck
Now that's not what I said at all, is it? I said the handbrake technique is the way everybody in this country is taught to do it (assuming they use a driving instructor) and that you would fail a UK test if you tried to operate two pedals simultaneously with the same foot. I stand by both statements.

Same thing in Sweden. Left foot on the clutch, right alternates between throttle and brake. Was a pain in the ass with an old Honda I once had that died in the winter if you ever let it idle...

quote:
Shadowduck
If you have never tried the parking brake you will be in for a nasty surprise when you try to use it to avoid a speeding ticket, too.

Never try any untried manouvre with a vehicle in front of a policeman, that should go without saying.

--------------------
/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Ulkomaalainen
Jingle Bell Hock


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To come up again with a point already dropped from the discussion: to pass my driving test I had to use both starting techniques uphill: brake/clutch as well as handbrake/clutch. In practice, hardly anyone I know does it with brake/clutch though, since it's more difficult. I sometimes do it to show off [Smile] (Actually, to pass my test I had to stand still uphill for a minute or so only using the clutch and no brake at all).

About engine braking, I got told off for too little use of it. Apparently it's good for slowly reducing speed if some limit approaches and controlling downhill speed on mountains (where using only the brake would heat it up and thus endanger it of becoming broken).

About "testing": I can only recommend it. German ADAC (automobile association) offers a lot of trainings, from the very basic to the very advanced, on safe tracks under supervision, so you get to know your car. Of course that costs money, but you know more about your car after it, and you have a very good idea about your limits, that they exist at all - which you hardly get if you only do "standard traffic".

--------------------
Movie characters never make typing mistakes.

Posts: 586 | From: Hamburg, Germany | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
RichardM
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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Troberg,
Shall we try to explain left foot braking now? :-) But then I rally in a SAAB.
Richard

Posts: 129 | From: Dallas | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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