posted
This is a question I've been mulling over for several weeks. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but there is a situation that I'm finding uncomfortable. I'd like others' thoughts before I elaborate, so that I don't influence peoples' descriptions. Also, can a former alcoholic ever become only a 'social' drinker?
-------------------- I'll drive it ugly. You can't see the paint job when you're behind the wheel, anyway. Posts: 570 | From: Central Valley, California | Registered: Dec 2005
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
I think there are several kinds of alcoholics.
1. Can't have fun without alcohol. 2. Can't drink without getting completely wasted. 3. Can't function without alcohol. 4. Craves alcohol at inappropriate times - like at breakfast. On a work day. 5. Depends on alcohol to adjust moods or to fall asleep.
There are probably more, but that is what I can think of right now. I think a former "Can't function without alcohol" person can become an occaisonal drinker, but it is probably not a good idea to risk it.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
quote:An alcoholic is someone you don't like who drinks as much as you do.
But to be serious, my definition (personal, not backed up by any academic views) is that someone becomes an alcoholic when their drinking pattern interferes with or handicaps their life (job, interpersonal relationships or whatever.)
I recall reading an interview with Richard Harris, who just stopped (his heavy)drinking one morning for no real reason. He said something along the lines of "I realised I can refuse the first one, but not the second and subsequent ones."
I would back that up from personal observation, but privacy issues prevent me from wanting to on a public message board.
Alcohol is a very addictive drug, and I do not think that a former alcoholic can become a social drinker. Of course there are organisations that disagree with this. I think one is called something like Moderated Management. Sorry it's late and I can't find a cite.
Edited for spelling after reading Joe Bentley's quote.
-------------------- "Ladies and gentlemen, this is what is commonly known as money. It comes in all sizes, colours, and denominations - like people." Posts: 997 | From: Maidstone, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Rhiandmoi: I think there are several kinds of alcoholics.
1. Can't have fun without alcohol. 2. Can't drink without getting completely wasted. 3. Can't function without alcohol. 4. Craves alcohol at inappropriate times - like at breakfast. On a work day. 5. Depends on alcohol to adjust moods or to fall asleep.
There are probably more, but that is what I can think of right now. I think a former "Can't function without alcohol" person can become an occaisonal drinker, but it is probably not a good idea to risk it.
I'd add (as a subset of point 2) "tries hard to control oneself, but once started, one drink becomes two, and then three, and then...", which is based on personal family experience.
Which is why I have to agree with Rhiandmoi's answer to the second part: it's possible, but very risky, not likely to succeed (again based on personal family experience) and definitely not recommended by most treatment programs or substance abuse counselors.
-------------------- Is here no telephone? Posts: 323 | From: Brooklyn, NY | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I told my ex-husband he had a drinking problem. He exclaimed to me that he wasn't an alcoholic. I told him I wasn't qualified to label him an alcoholic, that I said he had a drinking problem. He denied it. I then said "If your drinking causes problems in your life, then you have a drinking problem."
Is that an alcoholic? Could be.
-------------------- Explore, enjoy and protect the planet --- AAMAH Posts: 8532 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Some things off the top of my head: (all general you's, by the way)
If drinking causes problems in your life, but you do it anyway. If your drinking causes you concern. If you do things while drinking that you don't remember. If you find that after having the first drink, it is no longer really up to you how many will follow. If you spend alot of time thinking about drinking. If you ever lie about your drinking, or ask others to lie for you. If you have missed work, school, or family obligations because of drinking. If you think you have a problem, you are probably right.
Henry "Friend of Bill W" Chicane
ETA: About your question if an alcoholic can ever become a social drinker...IMO, no, absolutely not, but many of us will continue to try.
Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by Eddylizard: Dylan Thomas one wrote
quote:An alcoholic is someone you don't like who drinks as much as you do.
I think that's actually pretty close to the truth myself.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Craves alcohol at inappropriate times - like at breakfast. On a work day.
That's me.
quote:Tries hard to control oneself, but once started, one drink becomes two, and then three, and then...
That's me, too.
It's also a good "potential" sign if the person has alcoholic family members, even if they aren't close relatives.
Once I identified those three signs in myself, I knew I had to stop drinking. Fortunately, I was able to do it. But it's not easy, and I've had some real close calls since I started.
Social drinking... may vary. I've done it twice since I quit (my job change "retirement" and my brother's wedding), and had close calls at falling off both times.
quote:An alcoholic is someone you don't like who drinks as much as you do.
This would make me an alcoholic to probably half the board, even the nondrinkers.
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Someone who cannot go anywhere- without drinking. Visiting friends, dinner, the movies, etc. and always drinking. I may be way off on my personal definition, but if someone seems to have a drink in their hand whenever I see them fit into the "alcoholic" caegory for me.
-------------------- "My Very Educated Mother Just Said Uh-oh! No...Pluto..."~ Steven Colbert Posts: 3256 | From: Somewhere in Ohio | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I consider an alcoholic someone that cannot for-go a drink on any day.
My honey and I have a couple of beers after work most days and I amusidly call myself a weekend alcoholic. In fact I am drinking now.
Were I told that I could have no more... well that would suck. But no big fuss.
Does it mean I am an alcoholic? Hummmmm.... noooo.... but then again. What DO you consider an alcoholic?
-------------------- ~tough as nails yet nice as pie~ For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - and sometimes a scar. "and don't threaten anyone with your pants today!" - Frog_Feathers daisys does Myspace Posts: 3206 | From: Molalla, OR | Registered: Jun 2004
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If your drinking habits interfere with your life, you are an alcoholic. If your drinking habits do not interfere with your life, you are not one.
Posts: 236 | From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
A couple people in my husband's family are alcoholics. They both deny it.
One- drinks nearly a case of beer a day. Sits at home, watches TV, and just downs one can of beer after another. Says that they'll stop drinking, but then brings home that case at the end of the day again. Stays up till midnight, drinking. But, still gets up in the morning to get off to work on time.
Two- this one drinks and brags about how much it takes to get drunk; as if the more it takes this person to get drunk (like: "I can handle at least 12 beers before I feel it!") makes the person "cooler". This person also drinks, saying it is the only way they can have fun. "If it wasn't for drinking, I'd have nothing to do here!" This one stays up till the wee hours, then sleeps till noon or 1 PM and then complains they can't get anywhere in life and wonders "why things always work against" them.
The first person has been drinking for more than 30 years- the second is young- in their 20s. In my opinion, they're both alcoholics, but the second one is dangerous in comparison. The younger one is stuck in a bad relationship, that person's young children regularly see that person drunk and arguing with the other (frequently drunk too) parent. And, just who is taking care of those children when the drinker is sleeping off the previous night's drinking? (the other parent is either at work, or is sleeping off the previous night's drinking as well.)
Frog-and we all know what "opinions" are worth-Feathers
-------------------- "Is it ME? Am I a MAGNET for these idiots?"~Pearl Forrester MST3K Die-Hard Engineers, Big Red One my Dad's website "Must be a 'snopes' thing..." ~my entire family when I try to explain something. Posts: 4524 | From: South of Madison, Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Frog Feathers, my term for the first person is a "functioning alcoholic." My mother is the exact same way. She gets up every morning at 6, goes to work, grades her papers but gets loaded every night.
I on the other hand was more like your second example. I slept till noon, had trouble doing my job and basically lived for the next drink.
IMO, I do believe that it is possible to moderate drinks and or become a social drinker.
I do drink still but far more rarely and more importantly, the alcohol craving is gone. Occasionally I get blitzed but it's down to once a month now when before it was every day and I'm talking a pint of scotch would last me 2 hours.
quote:Originally posted by Frog_Feathers: "If it wasn't for drinking, I'd have nothing to do here!"
Being from Wisconsin, in my opinion, has a lot to do with this perspective. Many people I know use this excuse for excessive drinking. There are so many activities here that revolve around it - if a person doesn't make an effort to get involved in different activities, it's hard to get away from.
If being drunk affects your life or someone you care about, and you can't seem to change it, you're an alcoholic.
An alcoholic who tries to be a "social" drinker will only be successful for a while. The problem will eventually meet or exceed the previous level which prompted the person to try to be a "social" drinker in the first place. Kinda like smoking. A quitter cannot "only smoke when I drink" for long. It's an addiction. And it doesn't go away.
-------------------- Always do what you want, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind. ~ Dr. Suess Posts: 14 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
I believe that my mother has an alcohol dependency. For the last 10-15 years she has not been able to live through a day without several glasses of wine. Usually she drinks in the evening, but sometimes starts in the early afternoon. She has built up such a tolerance to it that I've never seen her really drunk. However, on rare occasions she'll call me at night and start complaining about my father and her life in general.
She goes through several bottles of wine a week. When I was living at home, and when I come to visit, we fight about it. I complain about her drinking because I can smell wine on her breath from two feet away. I've told her that I think she drinks too much; she responds with "You don't tell me what to do! I do not drink too much!...Besides, wine is good for you. It's good for your heart."
I can't get anything out of the fridge because there's always a huge bottle of wine taking up space. Sometimes she'll buy a new bottle every day because she drank the previous one so quickly.
I don't know if she was drinking heavily when I was growing up. My parents drank a lot of wine, but I noticed her amounts increasing after I left for college. So I don't know if she's an alcoholic, but she definitely has a dependency. In the last few years I've never seen her go one day without drinking at least 2-3 glasses.
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Being from Wisconsin, in my opinion, has a lot to do with this perspective. Many people I know use this excuse for excessive drinking.
The people in my post aren't from Wisconsin- they're from a dry county in North Carolina, so they have to make an effort and drive to the next county to get their beer/liquor. I worry more about the kids in that situation than I do the drinking adult- because the kids are being ignored in favor of the drinking and sleeping it off. Of course, when someone mentions that to the person, they act like they're being attacked for being a bad parent and, of course, drink to feel better.
-------------------- "Is it ME? Am I a MAGNET for these idiots?"~Pearl Forrester MST3K Die-Hard Engineers, Big Red One my Dad's website "Must be a 'snopes' thing..." ~my entire family when I try to explain something. Posts: 4524 | From: South of Madison, Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Frog_Feathers: The people in my post aren't from Wisconsin- they're from a dry county in North Carolina...
I guess it's an excuse people use no matter where they're from, then!
-------------------- Always do what you want, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind. ~ Dr. Suess Posts: 14 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
My ex-FIL was a very functional alcoholic. My ex-H was not.
I disagree with the "someone you don't like" definition, because I was still in love with my ex when I figured out he was an alcoholic.
quote:Originally posted by Miles Invictus: How do I define an alcoholic?
If your drinking habits interfere with your life, you are an alcoholic. If your drinking habits do not interfere with your life, you are not one.
This is close. I think I must add, however, that the drinker doesn't get to be the judge of what "interfering with your life" means. Denial is also a symptom -- "I'm not the one with the problem; everyone else has a problem."
Moderated Management (or whatever it's called) IMO is just more denial. I've never known it to work for long.
I would also add that whatever list of symptoms you use, you should add "continuing over X period of time." I and others have met several of the criteria for alcoholism at one time or another in our lives; the difference is that we recognized where we were going and got off that train early enough.
In college I drank daily, never stopped at one, and had blackouts. So I quit drinking for several weeks then boarded a much more responsible train when I started again, stopping frequently to be sure I could.
Nowadays I'm sometimes known to have two glasses of wine in a single evening, but not often -- I usually fall asleep after two!
Four Kitties
-------------------- If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales? Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003
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My ex was (and is) an alcoholic. My mom counseled alcoholics for some years for the county mental health center, so I grew up knowing what one was - can't believe I was in such denial about my ex. But then I woke up.
There are different kinds of alcoholics - some are binge drinkers, who might not drink at all for days or weeks or even months, but when they do start to drink, they don't quit. Not until they pass out or get to the point where something beyond their control makes them unable to drink anymore.
My husband was the daily drinker type, though.
His two worst signs:
-Having to have booze to have fun. Or do anything, pretty much.
We could *not*, ever, eat at a restarant that didn't have a liquor license, because he HAD to have at least 2 Jack and cokes before dinner, one or two with dinner, and another one or two afterwards. - Which made two hamburgers at Chilis a major expense. And which, added to his every other day stops at the liquor store, added up to eventually filing bankruptcy. And when, during one of the thousands of fights we had about how we could NOT afford this kind of lifestyle, he was completely irrational and in denial about - everything. NO, he didn't have a drinking problem. People who didn't go out drinking all the time were boring wallflower losers. No it wasn't costing us too much, (to hear him talk it was practically free) Of course he was in so much denial it wasn't even funny.
-Hiding his drinking.
He was unable to go without drinking for even half a day. When we would go visit and stay with his parents, who he lied to about everything and who were teetotalers, he'd go out to the car where he kept his booze and doctor up his big cup of coke, every 45 minutes or so.
-it was the main reason I left him, I could see where it was going and there was no way I was wasting the only life on this earth I knew for sure I was going to get, on that. Had there been any chance of admitting his problem and quitting it (and had he not been abusive and an asshat in many other ways too) I might have been willing to try, but, no.
-------------------- "Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit
(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad) Posts: 2397 | From: Texarkana, TX | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I'll go with the "if your drinking habits interfere with your life" people. I don't think cravings at inappropriate times necessarily make you an alcoholic, unless you ALWAYS have them. And I don't think drinking some every day makes you an alcoholic, unless you drink A LOT every day. I've known people who'd have a beer once a day, they weren't alcoholics. I've also known people who had to have 10 beers every day and would absolutely go apesh*t insane if they didn't get their booze. That's an alcoholic. And remember that the number of drinks someone can have before getting drunk varies by many factors, including body weight. I can have 5 hard liquor mixed drinks and be perfectly fine, I wouldn't drive, because there's always the potential I'm over the legal limit and just not feeling it, but I'm not drunk. I wouldn't consider having 5 drinks a few times a week making me an alcoholic, but a really skinny guy or girl who is wasted after two doing that more than once or twice a week, probably has a bit of a drinking problem.
posted
I'll stick with the "if it interferes.." group.
I don't really buy into all the "rules" or "signs" (drinking in the morning, drinking alone, etc) because that could just as easily be a cultural thing as anything else.
I think when something, anything, begins to interfere with your normal life (work, relationships, etc) then you have a problem, when you are unable to stop the behavior you have an addiction.
So yea, I'd vote for "your an alcoholic when your drinking interferes with other aspects of your life".
-------------------- "All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do" Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
That'll be my definition, too.
quote:5. Depends on alcohol to adjust moods or to fall asleep.
Really? People use alcohol to fall asleep?
I find it interferes with sleep. Granted, it might knock me out, but I get very sketchy sleep, and I wake up even more tired than I did before. YMMV, obviously.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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I find it interferes with sleep. Granted, it might knock me out, but I get very sketchy sleep, and I wake up even more tired than I did before. YMMV, obviously.
A little while back when my ex first left me I used alcohol and sleeping pills to get to sleep cause my brain would keep me awake (I was up all night on night). So while thats hardly the norm for me, I could see how people could use it to fall asleep, a "sketchy sleep" is better then no sleep at all.
-------------------- "All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do" Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Canuckistan: That'll be my definition, too.
quote:5. Depends on alcohol to adjust moods or to fall asleep.
Really? People use alcohol to fall asleep?
I find it interferes with sleep. Granted, it might knock me out, but I get very sketchy sleep, and I wake up even more tired than I did before. YMMV, obviously.
Doctors will tell you the same thing: alcohol initially puts you to sleep, but results in poor quality sleep. The problem is that people remember that they fell asleep after drinking, but don't remember that they didn't sleep well, or don't connect it with the alcohol. Perhaps because they were drunk.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Frog_Feathers: The people in my post aren't from Wisconsin- they're from a dry county in North Carolina...
I guess it's an excuse people use no matter where they're from, then!
I think it may also be an age thing as well. The two people are parent/child to each other. The other child in that family doesn't drink. I know a lot of young people drink because they "can" and they're "bored".
But of all the people I know, those two are the alcoholics. The older one- very much a functioning alcoholic. The younger one definitely isn't and I think needs the most help (because of the whole small children being ignored thing). But, that's my opinion- we all know what opinions are worth.
-------------------- "Is it ME? Am I a MAGNET for these idiots?"~Pearl Forrester MST3K Die-Hard Engineers, Big Red One my Dad's website "Must be a 'snopes' thing..." ~my entire family when I try to explain something. Posts: 4524 | From: South of Madison, Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Canuckistan: Really? People use alcohol to fall asleep?
I find it interferes with sleep. Granted, it might knock me out, but I get very sketchy sleep, and I wake up even more tired than I did before. YMMV, obviously.
A little while back when my ex first left me I used alcohol and sleeping pills to get to sleep cause my brain would keep me awake (I was up all night on night). So while thats hardly the norm for me, I could see how people could use it to fall asleep, a "sketchy sleep" is better then no sleep at all.
This is a major issue for exH. When he quits drinking, he doesn't sleep for days. Then he gets sleep deprivation symptoms along with alcohol withdrawal symptoms, so he says, "I'll just have a few so I can sleep."
Two cases of beer later....
Four Kitties
-------------------- If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales? Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003
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Ahh, see I'm a lightweight, If I tried to pound down two cases of beer you could return one of them to the store and still have some left over for the football game the next day (A six pack generally does it for me).
-------------------- "All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do" Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
See, I'm a heavyweight. Six beers is just a start for me, as 4K has heard before. ( )
But I've always been like that. The first time I got drunk, it took six cocktails. I've just always had a high tolerance. So I can drink lots and be in much better shape than someone who hasn't had that much to drink (right MapleLeaf? ). So under no circumstances would I ever consider myself an alcoholic, even though the amount I drink could send some lightweights straight to the rehab clinic.
I also know when to stop. And I also know when not to drink.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I wasn't trying to suggest volume made you an alcoholic, just that I don't think I'd be physically capable of drinking enough to do too much damage to me, heck I'd be out before some people are done pre-gaming
-------------------- "All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do" Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
I know, Mickey. But it has been suggested to me before that my ability to drink a bottle of wine makes me an alcoholic. And that irritates me.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Canuckistan: I know, Mickey. But it has been suggested to me before that my ability to drink a bottle of wine makes me an alcoholic. And that irritates me.
Some alcoholics do have a high tolerance for alcohol but not all. If you control your drinking rather than your drinking controlling you, you are not an alcoholic.
-------------------- "Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit
(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad) Posts: 2397 | From: Texarkana, TX | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by snapdragonfly: If you control your drinking rather than your drinking controlling you, you are not an alcoholic.
This makes perfect sense to me.
I drink 2/3 pints most days, not at home, but in my local pub. I love the social banter, and the two weekly gigs in my local. DW joins me 3 nights, mainly weekends. This is almost tee-total compared to quite a lot of people I know. I am aware that it's a cultural thing here, and the same norms don't necessarily apply everywhere else. Maybe some will view me as an alcoholic, but I don't view myself that way. Maybe once a week I'll have a few extra pints. I wouldn't say I can take it or leave it, because it is the way it is. But if I couldn't afford to drink, I wouldn't. Maybe that says it.
-------------------- On my old guitar sell tickets, so someone can finally pick it. Posts: 799 | From: Dublin, Ireland | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
On my way home from work today I stopped at the liquor store.
And sat in my car for ten minutes before leaving.
NFBSK, I hate sudden, intense, random alcohol craving.
'SIRAC'. Of Vulcan.
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
There's another aspect of alcoholism that some people might not have noticed but it's hugely signficant to me.
Many alcoholics have this horrible attitude towards life in which NOTHING is ever their fault, and the world owes them something, and they just never take responsibility for anything.
My ex husband was and still is this way.
A cousin of mine has stopped drinking, but she still has this attitude, and the attitude is still destroying her family nearly as much as the drinking did. My mom calls this a "dry drunk." She's quit the actual drinking, but she still has a long, long, long way to go - she won't accept responsibility for ANY of her actions. It's funny in a very sad way, though, that she virtuously CLAIMS that she now does take responsibility for her actions when she is wrong, only she never happens to be wrong, it's always the other person who is wrong and won't take responsibility. She WOULD, you know, if anything were actually her fault, but it never is.
It's really very very sad.
I've known a few people who had an actual physical problem with booze (just couldn't hold it well) but they didn't have that whole denial/excuses/codependant type dynamic going on and it makes a world of difference in their lives and I think it keeps the disease from becoming full blown.
Just my opinion based on my personal experience, but my mom agrees, based on her years of counseling these people.
I tell you it's a terrible disease. It ruins families for generations down the line.
-------------------- "Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit
(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad) Posts: 2397 | From: Texarkana, TX | Registered: Mar 2006
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