snopes.com Post new topic  Post a reply
search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hello snopes.com » Urban Legends » NFBSK » World's Best Divorce Letter (Page 10)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 12 pages: 1  2  3  ...  7  8  9  10  11  12   
Author Topic: World's Best Divorce Letter
trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


Icon 1 posted      Profile for trollface   Author's Homepage   E-mail trollface   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Fizz:
Dara, did I ever mention how I think of you as the sister I never had?

And never wanted?

--------------------
seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Dara bhur gCara     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by trollface:

quote:
It's the difference between "You shouldn't do that," and "You shouldn't be allowed to do that."
I do wonder about this, too. I think that humour is a great way of talking about things that are uncomfortable. I often use 'Allo 'Allo as a good example of this. The things that the programme jokes about aren't funny in the slightest, but that doesn't make the programme itself unfunny. In fact, I think that it's a good, cathartic tool for a whole generation, and it helps us to process the ideas of WWII.


I don't disagree with any of that, but I think you've got to be funny to get away with it, which this joke just isn't. It's just really immature, like a child saying 'bum' or 'cock' and thinking it's the funniest thing in the world.

Sexism can be funny, see!

My argument throughout this has not been that this joke is offensive per se, or that finding this joke amusing displays a level of emotional immaturity and insensitivity towards gender issues, although all these things could be true as ancillary points, but that not understanding why it could be deemed offensive was an indicator of an insensitivity towards gender issues. Moreover, this thread has spiralled out of control because the people who have found it amusing have decided to lash out at those who have criticised it, like Llewtrah did just there.

quote:
I think I have to agree with the idea that there shouldn't be such a thing as "taboo" when it comes to jokes. The example of The Aristocrats has already been mentioned, and this has been explored quite thoroughly in the "William Shatner roast" thread.


The Aristocrats was a bunch of self-indulgent wank, if you ask me. Some of it was funny, but most of it was just boring. Turns out it was just the same joke over and over again. I've only seen bits of the William Shatner roast, so I'm not going to comment, but I broadly agree with the notion that we shouldn't censor things. That doesn't mean that everything one says should be above criticism.

Criticism and censorship are not the same. It's perfectly acceptable to challenge misogynist or any kind of stereotypical ideas, which is all that people here are doing.

--------------------
This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Zachary Fizz     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Fizz:
Dara, did I ever mention how I think of you as the sister I never had?

And never wanted?
And swapped for a puppy.
Posts: 2370 | From: Arabia | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Friends of Alfred
The First USA Noel


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Friends of Alfred   E-mail Friends of Alfred   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong:
quote:
Originally posted by Friends of Alfred:
I'm saying that I do not equate the behaviour in the op with real life, and as such do not think that this displays insesitivity to gender issues.

And here's the crux. The fact that you do not equate this behavior with real life displays, in and of itself, insensitivity to gender issuses.
Um, no it doesn't. You may label me as insensitive to gender issues because I found a joke funny, but this is just your opinion, (which you are entitled to) and I disagree.

However, I'm clearly not going to change your mind, so go ahead and file me in the Mysoginistc Arsehole cabinet if that makes you happy. I dare say I'll get over it.

--------------------
There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?

Posts: 735 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


Icon 1 posted      Profile for trollface   Author's Homepage   E-mail trollface   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
I don't disagree with any of that, but I think you've got to be funny to get away with it, which this joke just isn't.

No argument from me, there.

quote:
My argument throughout this has not been that this joke is offensive per se, or that finding this joke amusing displays a level of emotional immaturity and insensitivity towards gender issues, although all these things could be true as ancillary points, but that not understanding why it could be deemed offensive was an indicator of an insensitivity towards gender issues. Moreover, this thread has spiralled out of control because the people who have found it amusing have decided to lash out at those who have criticised it, like Llewtrah did just there.
Again, I agree.

quote:
The Aristocrats was a bunch of self-indulgent wank, if you ask me.
Now, there, I'll disagree. But that's another discussion for another thread. Certianly, I think it proved that Whoopi Goldberg is an incredibly funny lady.

quote:
That doesn't mean that everything one says should be above criticism.
Absolutely. Just as the person (people) who authored the OP have the right to write the joke, people have the right to criticise them for it, and to critique the joke. And then others have the right to criticise those critisims, and so on and on until we all fall down because we're dizzy.

I've only been criticising the specific "this joke would be a bad influence on anyone who isn't as culturally knowledgeable as me" argument, which I think is patronising hooey.

--------------------
seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Dara bhur gCara     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Absolutely. Just as the person (people) who authored the OP have the right to write the joke, people have the right to criticise them for it, and to critique the joke. And then others have the right to criticise those critisims, and so on and on until we all fall down because we're dizzy.
And boy are we getting dizzy. I'm sure I said I was bored with this thread and was leaving it a couple of pages ago, but I keep getting sucked back in.

quote:

I've only been criticising the specific "this joke would be a bad influence on anyone who isn't as culturally knowledgeable as me" argument, which I think is patronising hooey.

Well I agree with that, so that's settled then. Right, I'm bowing out of this thread until such time as I get sucked back in by all the nastiness and recriminations. You know how I can't stay away from a good scrap.

Though I bet this thread ends up in Petty Bickering, without my, ahem, stabilising influence.

--------------------
This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Sara at home   E-mail Sara at home   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Friends of Alfred:
Way back in this thread I posted "The irony is that Dan thinks he has the high ground, but clearly is an asshole." (Note I did not say the moral high ground.) This sentance makes sense to me, but fair enough, I wrote it. So lets try again.

Dan thinks he is God's gift to women.
Dan thinks his wife is a fool to have left him and is missing all the "Dan-loving" action he has to offer.
Dan writes to his wife, but his intention is not to invite her back into his life, but to brag about his activities since she left, feeling confident that his Wife will be firmly put in her place, and possibly be consumed by guilt and jealousy for the rest of her life.

I just want to note that I would never have taken "high ground" to mean that.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Friends of Alfred
The First USA Noel


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Friends of Alfred   E-mail Friends of Alfred   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Dan thinks that he has the high ground, as evidenced by the attitude displayed in his letter.

Sigh. It's a humour piece, not intended to reflect the attitudes of the reader.

--------------------
There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?

Posts: 735 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Sara at home   E-mail Sara at home   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
OOps. Wrong thread. Let this be a lesson not to post with two tabs open to snopes and 4 hours sleep.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Major D. Saster
The First USA Noel


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Major D. Saster         Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:

Sexism can be funny, see!

Are you out of your mind, Dara ? [Eek!]

Every week, snopes.com gets mails from people who mistake "The Onion" for serious news. I myself got fooled once, a year ago.

Some sexist pig might click on the link, find this satirical piece funny for all the wrong reasons, copy and paste the text, start e-mailing it to his male chauvinist friends as his own opinions, and get approval from other repugnant phallocrats.

Eventually, the piece will come back to this forum like some evil boomerang and trigger the same pointless argument.

Be careful where you link to. [Big Grin]

PS: maybe The Onion should add a warning or a text analysis, so the readers know who they're supposed to laugh at, and why it's funny.

Of course, it wouldn't be so funny anymore, but at least no one could possibly be offended, except for the sexists, and who cares about those schmucks ?


Major D, over.

PS 2 : Wot ? Ironic ? Moi ?

--------------------
Desperate, but not serious.

Posts: 689 | From: Confoederatio Helvetica | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Friends of Alfred
The First USA Noel


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Friends of Alfred   E-mail Friends of Alfred   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:

Sexism can be funny, see!

Genuis!

Sorry folks but I could not resist [Wink]

--------------------
There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?

Posts: 735 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 08 posted      Profile for Mistletoey Chloe     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:
Perhaps those who constantly harp on about such humour being damaging have (a) had a sense of humour bypass, (b) take their own gender so seriously they are totally up their own fundament when it comes to jokes involving gender or (c) are maladjusted and uncomfortable with whatever gender they happen to be and therefore unusually sensitive to gender jokes. I was going to add (d) are USAnian since it does tend to be USAnians who can't cope with gender jokes, gender-related comments in the workplace and so on and so forth. Meanwhile the liberal minded Brits can distinguish between jokes and real life, sport parody and satire without the aid of emoticons, and see the funny side (the comment about the remote is a big NFBSKing clue and flips the entire joke back on the writer).

Well, while I don't "constantly harp" on the issue, I don't find the OP funny, and I don't brush off reactionary nastiness in the guise of humor. It's gratifying to know that this means that
a) I have no sense of humor, b) I am up my own arse, c) I'm a man in a woman's body, or d) I am USAnian. Such a wealth to choose from that I'm not sure what should be offending me most.

--------------------
~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Friends of Alfred
The First USA Noel


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Friends of Alfred   E-mail Friends of Alfred   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Agreed Chloe.

--------------------
There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?

Posts: 735 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
terralioness
Jingle Bell Hock


Icon 1 posted      Profile for terralioness   Author's Homepage     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Friends of Alfred:
Way back in this thread I posted "The irony is that Dan thinks he has the high ground, but clearly is an asshole." (Note I did not say the moral high ground.)

I am curious about what the "high ground" is if it's not referring to the moral high ground. I think I understand what you mean, but I could use a clarification on that too.

quote:
Dan thinks he is God's gift to women.
Clear enough.

quote:
Dan thinks his wife is a fool to have left him and is missing all the "Dan-loving" action he has to offer.
Probably.

quote:
Dan writes to his wife, but his intention is not to invite her back into his life, but to brag about his activities since she left, feeling confident that his Wife will be firmly put in her place, and possibly be consumed by guilt and jealousy for the rest of her life.
Was the pretense of "let's get back together" (which most, but not all, of us seem to agree is merely that, a pretense) just an excuse to write the letter in the first place? I think this part is a minor, but significant, point in the interpretation.

Also, I think you've hit the nail on the head more than you know by saying the letter would "put her in her place." If he was just trying to make her jealous, why the specific insults and commentary on her? ("My moderately attractive Connie," the comment about what "a real woman" is.) Now, I don't think the difference between trying to make her rage with jealousy and trying to specifically wound her is that significant. But I definitely think he is trying to "put her in her place," and that place is the stereotype of the bitter divorcee. You can see my earlier post about where that stereotype comes up in this piece.

The bit about what his intentions are is the kicker. I think the digs at Connie and the "****ing remote" bit (what do you think about that line, by the way?) make it pretty clear that he's specifically trying to hurt her, presumably out of spite for her leaving him. There are plenty of people who would find humor in that reading.

quote:
Now, here is the irony bit.

Dan has shown by writing his letter that he is an asshole, and has instead given his Wife all the help she needs (not saying she needed his help to do so btw) to walk away from the marriage gratefully and lead a far better life without him in it.

Yes, he's shown that he's an asshole. I just don't buy the argument that he's trying to make her insane with jealousy, which is what this ironic reading requires. I think it's a portrayal of divorce that relies on ugly stereotypes for its humor, and requires at least some measure of relating to the guy.

I'm not saying that all people who found this funny are sympathizing with the guy and believe in ugly stereotypes of divorce. I'm not disbelieving that you found it ironically funny. I'm just saying that the evidence in the text on a closer reading doesn't entirely support an ironic reading.

quote:
The language then adds shock value, and makes it a laugh out loud funny joke. Again I said this way back in this thread.
I think there wouldn't be any "joke" without the language, actually. A plain-worded version of this would probably reveal the undertones a little bit better; that is, it would read as less silly, more serious. The language is what makes it plain that it's to be read as humor, whoever you interpret the butt of the joke to be.

If there's a question of whether I "see the humor in it," as Llewtrah so eloquently and productively pointed out, I do. I see why people would laugh at it. I even see why people would take it ironically and defend that interpretation. I understand it even better now than I did at the beginning, because some people have done me the favor of explaining how they saw it.

When I look at the OP, I see things that contradict an ironic reading. I pointed these out in my earlier post responding to Cervus. I think that when you read the piece closely enough to catch those, an ironic reading requires that you ignore these parts. Nobody has addressed them yet. It's possible that someone will present an argument about them that they are satisfied with and I'm not. That's life, I guess, but I'd still like to hear specific thoughts about them.

Without this debate, the thread would probably be a page of responses with people declaring it dumb or great. I don't see why starting the debate is something that Llewtrah and wee wifey would have a problem with. It's not a hijack, it's not a flame war. What's the problem with discussing a piece of email lore in detail?

--------------------
"I never liked Hemingway."
"I never liked you."

Posts: 543 | From: Brooklyn, NY | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Doc J.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


Icon 105 posted      Profile for Doc J.   E-mail Doc J.   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
In the last few weeks, it seems like many threads are unnecessarily being turned into feminist rants and anyone who doesn't agree with Ryda or Sara at Home's feminist stance is attacked, ridiculed, or mocked by them.

I am hoping this is just a passing trend and that the board won't become dominated by feminist/anti-feminist issues. It's rather repetitive and tiresome because I know exactly what certain posters are going to say.

You said it Cervus.

You know . . . I remember when this place used to be all about ULs.

Ah, happy days.

Posts: 3100 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Lainie   E-mail Lainie   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc J.:
You know . . . I remember when this place used to be all about ULs.

Just out of curiosity, when was that? There were a number of forms designated for "non-UL chat" when I got here, but then I've only been here a year.

--------------------
How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


Icon 18 posted      Profile for Doug4.7   E-mail Doug4.7   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc J.:
quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
In the last few weeks, it seems like many threads are unnecessarily being turned into feminist rants and anyone who doesn't agree with Ryda or Sara at Home's feminist stance is attacked, ridiculed, or mocked by them.

I am hoping this is just a passing trend and that the board won't become dominated by feminist/anti-feminist issues. It's rather repetitive and tiresome because I know exactly what certain posters are going to say.

You said it Cervus.

You know . . . I remember when this place used to be all about ULs.

Ah, happy days.

At least they are not turning into abortions threads.... [fish]

--------------------
And now for something completely different...

Posts: 4164 | From: Alabama | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
terralioness
Jingle Bell Hock


Icon 1 posted      Profile for terralioness   Author's Homepage     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc J.:
quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
In the last few weeks, it seems like many threads are unnecessarily being turned into feminist rants and anyone who doesn't agree with Ryda or Sara at Home's feminist stance is attacked, ridiculed, or mocked by them.

I am hoping this is just a passing trend and that the board won't become dominated by feminist/anti-feminist issues. It's rather repetitive and tiresome because I know exactly what certain posters are going to say.

You said it Cervus.

You know . . . I remember when this place used to be all about ULs.

Ah, happy days.

This thread is about a piece of email lore that very heavily concerns gender issues. I think this discussion weighs pretty heavily on why people find it funny and, therefore, pass it on.

In other words, this is one of the few threads that is still very much on-topic after 10 pages. If you guys want to complain about feminist issues hijacking unrelated threads, you'd do well to pick a better example.

--------------------
"I never liked Hemingway."
"I never liked you."

Posts: 543 | From: Brooklyn, NY | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Doc J.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doc J.   E-mail Doc J.   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
Just out of curiosity, when was that? There were a number of forms designated for "non-UL chat" when I got here, but then I've only been here a year.

Have you looked through the archived threads ?

Bottom of the list using the search function.

Posts: 3100 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Friends of Alfred
The First USA Noel


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Friends of Alfred   E-mail Friends of Alfred   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Hi Terralioness,

I guess to me the difference between Moral high ground and high ground, in relation to this specific instance, is that Dan thinks he is "the Man" and Connie is "the loser" by missing out on all the wonders of Dan. It's an ego trip for Dan, not a moral standpoint.

The pretense that the letter was written "to get back together" is central to the joke. Dan writes the letter, asking Connie to come back, but with the intention of displaying all the "Dan loving" that's going on, and to demonstrate to Connie what she is missing. He does not want her back, but is trying desperately to show her what she is missing, i.e. to put her in her place. However all he does is demonstrate that he is an idiot, and the joke is therefore on him, not Connie. The line about the remote at the end proves conclusively that the purpose of the letter was not to get Connie back, and thus reinforces the joke.

The language does 2 things - adds shock value and also tells the reader that this is a joke, not a real missive from a jilted husband.

Now the other point that a lot of people seem to be missing - this is a humour piece, written to get an instant laugh, and then for us to move on. I dare say we could over analyse any shaggy-dog story and uncover all sorts of undercurrents and attitudes, or infer them by bringing our own prejudices to bear.

My immediate thoughts when I read it, was "funny as hell! That Dan guy is an asshole", because my funny bone was tickled by the irony of what Dan had done. And I'm standing by that opinion, because I see nothing wrong with it, nor do I feel that I, or anybody else who read it and found it funny, is a Bad Person(tm).

ETA: - missed a crucial word

--------------------
There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?

Posts: 735 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
nurple
We Three Blings


Icon 1 posted      Profile for nurple   Author's Homepage   E-mail nurple   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc J.:

You know . . . I remember when this place used to be all about ULs.

Ah, happy days.

Please feel free to stick to the UL threads then.
If this thread bothers you so, why in the world are you reading it, much less posting in it?

--------------------
"You better respect the Rap or the Rap won't respect you." Ledatru

Posts: 1141 | From: Chicago, IL | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Lainie   E-mail Lainie   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc J.:
quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
Just out of curiosity, when was that? There were a number of forms designated for "non-UL chat" when I got here, but then I've only been here a year.

Have you looked through the archived threads ?

Bottom of the list using the search function.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I'm not asking about historical threads.

You said the site used to be "all about ULs." Currently, there are forums on the site that are designated as being for non-UL chat. Was there a time when that was not the case?

--------------------
How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
I'mNotDedalus
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


Icon 1 posted      Profile for I'mNotDedalus   Author's Homepage   E-mail I'mNotDedalus   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
I thought the existence of UL-only threads was just an UL! BA-ZING! Ohhhh, Iíll be here all week. Be sure to tip your waitress: lord knows those dumb buxom brawds canít find any other work.

--------------------
The salty fragrance of LíEau IímNotDedalus - made entirely of and entirely for sea turtles.

Posts: 1983 | From: Chicagoland, IL | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
terralioness
Jingle Bell Hock


Icon 1 posted      Profile for terralioness   Author's Homepage     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Friends of Alfred:
I guess to me the difference between Moral high ground and high ground, in relation to this specific instance, is that Dan thinks he is "the Man" and Connie is "the loser" by missing out on all the wonders of Dan. It's an ego trip for Dan, not a moral standpoint.

Makes sense. It weakens your point about the irony, though. In this letter where he's being an asshole to his ex, the joke is that he's being an asshole?

quote:
However all he does is demonstrate that he is an idiot, and the joke is therefore on him, not Connie. The line about the remote at the end proves conclusively that the purpose of the letter was not to get Connie back, and thus reinforces the joke.
Connie's the one who is getting the emotionally abusive end of the stick. I hardly think she's coming out on top, whether Dan realizes he's being a jerk or not (and again, I don't see why he wouldn't -- it's hard not to realize that writing a letter specifically to antagonize your ex isn't something nice people do). That is why I read this as more a story of vindication from the harpy wife than a story where we're supposed to laugh at the idiot narrator.

quote:
Now the other point that a lot of people seem to be missing - this is a humour piece, written to get an instant laugh, and then for us to move on. I dare say we could over analyse any shaggy-dog story and uncover all sorts of undercurrents and attitudes, or infer them by bringing our own prejudices to bear.
So now people who dare look closely at it just don't realize it's a joke?

Of course it's a joke. Jokes, especially ones as long and relatively involved as this one, can say a lot about the attitudes of the writer and about the culture that supports the joke. Hardly any text like this is intended to be read this closely, but that doesn't mean there's no value in doing it.

quote:
My immediate thoughts when I read it, was "funny as hell! That Dan guys an asshole", because my funny bone was tickled by the irony of what Dan had done. And I'm standing by that opinion, because I see nothing wrong with it, nor do I feel that I, or anybody else who read it, is a Bad Person(tm).
You are free to continue holding those attitudes. Most people do. Have I said that you or the people who laughed at it are Bad People?

I just a) don't blame people for reacting to you when you declare something like this "brilliant," and b) disagree with you on a number of points. I don't necessarily think you'll agree with me if you just listen to what I have to say. I do resent the constant implications that people who are analyzing this have no sense of humor; the fact that I don't find this funny is actually pretty separate from the fact that I resent the sexist undertones.

I wouldn't pass this on because I think it relies on ugly stereotypes about marriage and divorce. I think it has misogynist leanings. And I would be pretty upset if someone I considered a good friend forwarded it to me with no more than an LOL.

--------------------
"I never liked Hemingway."
"I never liked you."

Posts: 543 | From: Brooklyn, NY | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Doc J.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doc J.   E-mail Doc J.   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
Currently, there are forums on the site that are designated as being for non-UL chat. Was there a time when that was not the case?

You'd have to ask one of the real old-timers for a definitive answer, but pretty much, yeah.

Over the last 5 years the non-UL side has expanded considerably in a way that the UL side has not. Perhaps this reflects the demands of todays snopesters, but whatever the reason, it has played a part in my declining interest in the site*, something that I feel as a personal loss.

*apologies to snopes and Barbara.

Posts: 3100 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Doc J.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doc J.   E-mail Doc J.   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nurple:
Please feel free to stick to the UL threads then.

Thanks for the great advice nurple.

Maybe you could read all the threads each morning and send me a precis of those I'd be interested in.

Posts: 3100 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Friends of Alfred
The First USA Noel


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Friends of Alfred   E-mail Friends of Alfred   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
He's being an asshole through his graphic descriptions of his "new" sex life. The whole point of the joke, is that Dan does not realise he is coming off as the asshole. He thinks he is coming off as a Sex God, which is why I laugh at him.

Now, I have supported anybody not finding it funny. I've repeatedly said that anybody has the right to find the joke sexist, and to be suitably outraged as a result. I've never said that people must have no sense of humour if they do not find it funny.

What I am objecting to, is somebody telling me that because I found it funny, that I am therefore sexist, sad and stupid. There is a huge difference here. Be outraged if you (generic you) read it differently to me, but be honest enough to admit that it is a humour piece, and that others may see humour without being offended, and crucially may find it funny without supporting the very viewpoint that outrages you.

If I laughed at a genuine story of a baby being mauled to death by a dog (current story in our press), then I could understand outrage being directed towards my views, but to label me on the basis of my reaction to a joke is a leap too far.

You have not personally labeled me, but others have.

--------------------
There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?

Posts: 735 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
nurple
We Three Blings


Icon 302 posted      Profile for nurple   Author's Homepage   E-mail nurple   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc J.:
quote:
Originally posted by nurple:
Please feel free to stick to the UL threads then.

Thanks for the great advice nurple.

Oh, you are absolutely welcome!

quote:
Maybe you could read all the threads each morning and send me a precis of those I'd be interested in.
Perhaps I should, because I've got enough sense to not read the threads that annoy me.

--------------------
"You better respect the Rap or the Rap won't respect you." Ledatru

Posts: 1141 | From: Chicago, IL | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
terralioness
Jingle Bell Hock


Icon 1 posted      Profile for terralioness   Author's Homepage     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Friends of Alfred:
He's being an asshole through his graphic descriptions of his "new" sex life. The whole point of the joke, is that Dan does not realise he is coming off as the asshole. He thinks he is coming off as a Sex God, which is why I laugh at him.

Again, then, why deliberately refer to Connie as "his moderately attractive Connie?" Why add "****ing" to his request about the remote?

You clearly interpret this differently. All I'm trying to do is get you to respond to the parts of the piece that I think contradict your reading. Ignoring them doesn't help your case.

quote:
Now, I have supported anybody not finding it funny. I've repeatedly said that anybody has the right to find the joke sexist, and to be suitably outraged as a result. I've never said that people must have no sense of humour if they do not find it funny.
You did imply that people who analyze a piece like this are missing the point that it is a humor piece. To me, that's close enough to saying I have no sense of humor. I note that you support my not finding it funny, but not necessarily my choice to analyze it beyond "funny" or "not funny."

The rest doesn't really apply to me, because I haven't been part of that in this thread.

--------------------
"I never liked Hemingway."
"I never liked you."

Posts: 543 | From: Brooklyn, NY | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop   Author's Homepage   E-mail Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc J.:
quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
Currently, there are forums on the site that are designated as being for non-UL chat. Was there a time when that was not the case?

You'd have to ask one of the real old-timers for a definitive answer, but pretty much, yeah.

Over the last 5 years the non-UL side has expanded considerably in a way that the UL side has not. Perhaps this reflects the demands of todays snopesters, but whatever the reason, it has played a part in my declining interest in the site*, something that I feel as a personal loss.

*apologies to snopes and Barbara.

Milage varies. It's the non-UL chat that keeps me here. When I first arrived, I was highly interested in the directly UL-related threads. It's what initially hooked me. But ultimately I'm more interested in people than I am in ULs, and I'd probably have wandered off years ago if the opportunity to converse with hundreds of people all over the world about a variety of different topics weren't such a draw.

Nonny

--------------------
When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

Posts: 10141 | From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
wee wifey
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


Icon 1 posted      Profile for wee wifey   E-mail wee wifey   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by terralioness:
I don't see why starting the debate is something that Llewtrah and wee wifey would have a problem with.

I have no problem with debate, but lately there appears to be a whole lot of shouting about one particular issue- whether it's relevant to the OP or not- and frankly it's beginning to grate on me, especially given that if you disagree with those shouting the loudest then you are clearly misogynistic & unintelligent, and if you disagree with one, the cavalry arrive. I seriously half expect a "what shall I have for my lunch" thread to be turned into a gender issue.

It's so bad I actually find myself forgiving previous snopesters whom I thought had only one point to make!

--------------------
once known as little miss

"I don't Pretend to be an ordinary Housewife" Elizabeth Taylor

Posts: 2416 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Doc J.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


Icon 101 posted      Profile for Doc J.   E-mail Doc J.   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nurple:
I've got enough sense to not read the threads that annoy me.

[lol]

So you're psychic then ?

Only, I can't seem to detect the annoying threads until after I've read them.

Aren't I just the dunce.

Posts: 3100 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
wee wifey
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


Icon 1 posted      Profile for wee wifey   E-mail wee wifey   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by A Plague of Nonny:
But ultimately I'm more interested in people than I am in ULs, and I'd probably have wandered off years ago if the opportunity to converse with hundreds of people all over the world about a variety of different topics weren't such a draw.

Nonny

but Nonny- what is this Variety of which you speak? [Wink]

--------------------
once known as little miss

"I don't Pretend to be an ordinary Housewife" Elizabeth Taylor

Posts: 2416 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Dara bhur gCara     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc J.:
quote:
Originally posted by nurple:
I've got enough sense to not read the threads that annoy me.

[lol]

So you're psychic then ?

Only, I can't seem to detect the annoying threads until after I've read them.

Aren't I just the dunce.

I only read the threads that annoy me. Controversial, I know, but there you have it.

--------------------
This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


Icon 1 posted      Profile for trollface   Author's Homepage   E-mail trollface   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by terralioness:
When I look at the OP, I see things that contradict an ironic reading. I pointed these out in my earlier post responding to Cervus. I think that when you read the piece closely enough to catch those, an ironic reading requires that you ignore these parts. Nobody has addressed them yet.

Let me have a go, as I read it as ironic.

First of all, I seem to be the only person that views the letter as a "genuine" attempt to get back with her, rather than as an attempt to hurt her. The guy that says hurtful and stupid things to a woman and is too wrapped up in himself to even notice that what he's saying could be hurtful or stupid - and so then wonders why the woman would be less than flattered that he's said them.

On to more specific points. I'll respond to the post that you've linked.

quote:
I mean, he refers to her as "my moderately attractive Connie," which seems a much more deliberate insult than even all the graphic descriptions of sex with other women.
This is part of what I said above. In his mind, he's just being honest, so he couldn't call her beautiful because, for example, her sister is more attractive.

quote:
The other sticking point is the restraining order. As Ryda said, this is a pretty sinister note. You could read it as satire, pointing out that the man has crossed the line of social unacceptability and thus is to be mocked. I'm not so sure. I read it more as a stereotype of the overreacting divorcee, the one who is (probably rightfully) winning the legal battle and is thus resented by the ex.
I must confess to being confused, here. You say that it's obvious from the peice that the divorcee is probably right in getting a restraining order against him (which I would agree with), but say that it's feeding into the stereotype of the "overreacting divorcee", which surely contradicts the other reading. I think that there's evidence in the letter that there is good reason for there to be a restraining order against him, but no evidence whatsoever that she got one against him because she's prone to overreaction. Surely it's more logical to assume, from what we know of Dan, that the restraining order is a reasonable precaution. So why would, or could you read it as being an overreaction on her part, unless you already had such a preconception that that's what the message was supposed to be?

quote:
The fact that there are kids involved completes the picture (she's stolen his kids away from him!).
I don't get anything from the letter that suggests that he's interested in the kids. In fact, the only mention of them suggests that he's happier without them because they don't put a dampener on his sex-life any more. I'd certainly be interested in hearing what it is in the letter that leads to the assumption that he's upset about his kids being gone, or that he's at all interested in being a good father. I can only find evidence for the opposite reading.

Again, I think you have to bring the preconception that it's an anti-woman peice to the table to get that reading. Perhaps if you could explain what gave you that reading?

quote:
This and the reference to how a "real woman" isn't preoccupied with her career are what make me sure there's not just one ugly stereotype portrayed here.
This one is more ambiguous, I'll grant you. But I think it's certainly open to interpretation as to whether the man who thinks that a "real woman" shouldn't have a career, or the woman who has a career are being mocked.

As for the "remote" line, it's already been established that that was a late addition, but, for me, it's again stereotyping the bloke. You know, the "blokes only really care about beer, football and women. In that order" stereotype. Yes, it is comparing her worth to that of the remote (and asking her to be a mother for him - the "men are useless without women" stereotype) but, again, who this is actually poking fun at is, at best, ambiguous.

I still don't think it's funny, but I also don't think that it's particularly mysoganist.

--------------------
seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
  This topic comprises 12 pages: 1  2  3  ...  7  8  9  10  11  12   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is enabled.
UBB Codeô is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post new topic  Post a reply Close topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Urban Legends Reference Pages

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2