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Author Topic: Top Seven Myths of Homosexuality
Norton II
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My major objection to the Catholic view given in pinqy's post above is that professional virgins are showing a lot of chutzpah in making declarations about sex and sexuality.

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Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico

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TimK
I Saw Three Shipments


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Whether you like it or not, telling people that a fundamental part of themselves is sinful and must be suppressed makes them feel worthless.
But they say that about everyone...it's the concept of Original Sin.

quote:
And before you tell me that it's not the homosexual feelings that are sinful, it's the homosexual acts:

No, it's not homosexual acts either. Reread this post...I hate repeating myself to people who've already made up their mind and refuse to listen to reality.

pinqy

Sorry, you don't know your Catholic theology.

The Catholic position on homosexuality is that while a homosexual orientation is not sinful in itself, homosexual acts are.

The justification for that position is irrelevant. What's relevant is that the Catholic position offers heterosexually oriented people a way to express their sexuality in a relationship that is not considered sinful, while no such option is offered to homosexually oriented people.

If you can't get that, all I can say is that you've (1) never been homosexual and (2) never bothered to put yourself in the shoes of someone who is.

quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
There's no difference between 2 and 3 unless you're claiming that the position is completely insincere. And it's still an untrue claim that you can't support.

There is, of course, a difference between telling someone they have to carry an additional burden *because* they're not worthy, and telling them they're not worthy and, oh, by the way, the thing that makes you think they're unworthy is their cross to bear.

And OF COURSE it's an insincere position! There's not an ounce of Christian love behind it; it is simply a transparently vile (and, ultimately, rather pathetic) attempt to justify a gut prejudice. It's the sort of thing that doesn't deserve the name "religion."

It would be one thing if the Church were content to proclaim its message and act accordingly on its own turf, but the Church actively works to oppress gays and lesbians by supporting laws that discriminate against us in employment, housing and other areas, and by opposing laws that would prohibit such discrimination. By doing so, and through its words as well, the Church promotes hatred and violence against gays and lesbians. The Vatican even gave us this gem: "People should not be surprised when a morally offensive lifestyle is physically attacked."

Get back to me when the Catholic Church grows a heart and a conscience on this issue.

-- Tim

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TimK
I Saw Three Shipments


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*remove double post*
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TimK
I Saw Three Shipments


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quote:
Originally posted by Norton II:
My major objection to the Catholic view given in pinqy's post above is that professional virgins are showing a lot of chutzpah in making declarations about sex and sexuality.

Oh my Lord, did you say a mouthful or WHAT? [Big Grin]

Best,
Tim

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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Originally posted by Canuckistan:
quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
Sure, but I was responding as to how an anti-homosexual (conduct) attitude could exist even if homosexuality were proved genetic. The Catholic position would simply be that homosexuals had a different burden to bear.

Of course, it's a burden brought on by these people. The ultimate in circles: you have a bigger burden to bear because we deem you to be less worthy than others.
It's one thing to disagree with a position. It's another to invent more to add on to it to make the people hold it look even worse. That's dishonest and makes you look like a bigot.

Oh, please, pinqy! This is not an invention! You said the Church's position is that homosexuals have a "different burden" to bear.

Who's creating that burden? Oh yeah, people like them. People who think that God gives them the right to judge. It may be "God's will," but these people are quite actively carrying it out for Him.

And I was only responding to what you said was the Church's position. If that is the church's position, my statement stands. If that makes me a bigot, then so be it. You feel better about yourself having done that.

Calling me a bigot for pointing out the implications of your argument is mind-boggling. And, really, if you think that I'm attacking all Catholics, or if you think that all Catholics hold that view, then ... I just don't know what to say. I really don't.

ETA: And what TimK said about in practice. Although, it seems like the Church wants to make everyone feel guilty about sex, in some way, shape or form.

But, really, worthiness is what sin boils down to. Remember, sinning and falling short of the grace of God? If sinning then doesn't make you less worthy, I don't know what does.

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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NobbyNobbs
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By the way, I've come across a wonderful riposte to those who claim that homosexuality is a choice.

I say, " It is? Ok, then, choose to be homosexual for the next half hour."

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Back in the days before electricity, we were forced to watch TV by candlelight.

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NobbyNobbs
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By the way, I've come across a wonderful riposte to those who claim that homosexuality is a choice.

I say, " It is? Ok, then, choose to be homosexual for the next half hour."

--------------------
Back in the days before electricity, we were forced to watch TV by candlelight.

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Dutch Angua
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quote:
Why is it offensive? If the sole purpose of marriage were to reproduce why would it be offensive to say that those who reproduce can't marry? But in any case, I'm pretty sure the Church has a loophole for infertility.

Yeah true. But maybe slight hyjack (sp?) but something I'd like to tell anyway;
My friend is, genetically, male. She has the XY genotype, but developped (mostly) as a female. She had to take hormones for breast growth, and she still needs to take several hormonal medicine if she wants to stay healthy. She's infertile because of this condition. She married a great guy nearly two years ago.
A while ago she went to a message board that was made after a tv show on this condition, and some pCm bastard came there to shout at them. According to him, the fact that she was genetically male, made her and her husband gay and they were of the devil.

Bastard.

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Dude, where's my siggy?

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Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Canuckistan:
But, really, worthiness is what sin boils down to. Remember, sinning and falling short of the grace of God? If sinning then doesn't make you less worthy, I don't know what does.

Ah, but we Catholics believe that everyone is a sinner, and that you can redeme yourself through confession. Maybe that's why so many good Catholics are also drunks. "Whoops! Fell off the wagon again. But, I know God will forgive me if I'm truely sorry." (emphasis mine - reconciliation doesn't work if you are not sincere - can't be a serial child molester and "confess" just to get out of it) Some of the best people I know - the least self rightous, the least demeaning of others - are very staunch Catholics. I don't give a rats ass what your particular sins are; if you are repentant of them, you're OK by me.
quote:
Originally posted by Dutch Angua:
quote:
Why is it offensive? If the sole purpose of marriage were to reproduce why would it be offensive to say that those who reproduce can't marry? But in any case, I'm pretty sure the Church has a loophole for infertility.

Yeah true. But maybe slight hyjack (sp?) but something I'd like to tell anyway;
My friend is, genetically, male. She has the XY genotype, but developped (mostly) as a female. She had to take hormones for breast growth, and she still needs to take several hormonal medicine if she wants to stay healthy. She's infertile because of this condition. She married a great guy nearly two years ago.
A while ago she went to a message board that was made after a tv show on this condition, and some pCm bastard came there to shout at them. According to him, the fact that she was genetically male, made her and her husband gay and they were of the devil.

Bastard.

And rectums like this are her additional cross to bear. My heart goes out to your friend. Please tell her not everyone who has strong religious beliefs is a complete asshat. I have personally been called half-assed lots of times! [Big Grin]

--------------------
"The large print givith, and the small print taketh away" -- Tom Waits, Step Right Up

"The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad." -- Salvador Dali

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Ophiuchus
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Winston O'Boogie:
Ah, but we Catholics believe that everyone is a sinner, and that you can redeme yourself through confession. Maybe that's why so many good Catholics are also drunks. "Whoops! Fell off the wagon again. But, I know God will forgive me if I'm truely sorry." (emphasis mine - reconciliation doesn't work if you are not sincere - can't be a serial child molester and "confess" just to get out of it) Some of the best people I know - the least self rightous, the least demeaning of others - are very staunch Catholics. I don't give a rats ass what your particular sins are; if you are repentant of them, you're OK by me.

Of course, someone can be a serial child molester and if they are as 'sincere' as the drunk or the philanthroper about confessing then they are off the hook for free.
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tootiredtocare
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quote:
Originally posted by Dutch Angua:
quote:
Why is it offensive? If the sole purpose of marriage were to reproduce why would it be offensive to say that those who reproduce can't marry? But in any case, I'm pretty sure the Church has a loophole for infertility.

Yeah true. But maybe slight hyjack (sp?) but something I'd like to tell anyway;
My friend is, genetically, male. She has the XY genotype, but developped (mostly) as a female. She had to take hormones for breast growth, and she still needs to take several hormonal medicine if she wants to stay healthy. She's infertile because of this condition. She married a great guy nearly two years ago.
A while ago she went to a message board that was made after a tv show on this condition, and some pCm bastard came there to shout at them. According to him, the fact that she was genetically male, made her and her husband gay and they were of the devil.

Bastard.

This is due to the mere fact that all human embryos start off as female. It's a little complicated but on the y chromosome are certain genes that express what a male is. Every now and again males do not have their y chromosome activate these genes. So they are born looking like a natural female. They do take hormones but the end result can easily be put in any men's magazine or work in any strip club and no one would be the wiser.

As for gay that would depend if the individual was in fact sexually attracted to the same sex if the y chromosome had actually functioned right.

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Dutch Angua
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tootiredtocare, thanks for the lesson in embryology, but I passed that exam 6 months ago [Wink]
I've still got the book, so I could look it up for you if you want.

quote:
As for gay that would depend if the individual was in fact sexually attracted to the same sex if the y chromosome had actually functioned right.
We will never know, and I do not give a damn if I may express myself like that.

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Dude, where's my siggy?

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tootiredtocare
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Just stating a simple fact. I do think the other party should be made of the condition. Same with if the person had a sex change operation or was going to have one. That can be tramuatic to the other person since it goes to the core of one's sexuality or sexual notions or lead to nasty consequences if the other party isn't informed prior to the relationship getting serious or moving past a platonic relationship.
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tootiredtocare
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Also I do think until we can rewrite the genes so that a person undergoing a sex change actually is the other sex it's going to be a murky issue as to how that indivudual is perceived not only by themselves but by society. I know huge run on sentence but I just got the AC repaired so I am still in a state of heat stroke since it is hotter then hell where I am and without the AC it gets so high in the house it's off the thermostat.
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Dutch Angua
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quote:
Just stating a simple fact. I do think the other party should be made of the condition. Same with if the person had a sex change operation or was going to have one. That can be tramuatic to the other person since it goes to the core of one's sexuality or sexual notions or lead to nasty consequences if the other party isn't informed prior to the relationship getting serious or moving past a platonic relationship.
Her husband knew about it long before they got married, but he still loved her. He knew she couldn't have children but he still wanted her. She was worried about the fact that she is 10 years older than him, but he doesn't care and still wanted her.
Don't want to sound glurgy, but what a guy!

And to quote my friend: "I don't care what my genotype says, I'm a woman."

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Dude, where's my siggy?

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Eddylizard
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
And religion is equally a choice,
Religion is much more of a choice. I've listened to the theological arguments of (reasonable, level-headed) religious practitioners, and come up with my own belief set.

Homosexuality isn't a 'choice'. I have no choice that I am attraced to women, I just am. There, I am a flaming heterosexual. Similarly I'm sure a homosexual man cannot 'choose' to be attracted to women. I suppose the only choice would be whether to practise ones sexuality, or remain celibate, but it's a bit specious.

As to 'is homosexuality nature or nurture?' Who cares? It's really not important. Scientists, please, accept there are a number of people who attracted to the same sex, and that affects me less than my 'choice' to have toast this morning rather than cornflakes has affected Kellogs. Spend your time more profitably inventing a cure for avian flu, or a non-drip teapot.

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"Ladies and gentlemen, this is what is commonly known as money. It comes in all sizes, colours, and denominations - like people."

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NancyFancyPants
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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy: The Catholic position is that we are all called to celibacy (defined as no sex outside of marriage), that sex is for the primary purpose of reproduction (under Natural Law), that to have sex without the possibility of reproduction (excepting physical damage/post-menopausal women) is a violation of God's Natural Law, and that since marriage is the institution set up by God to support procreation, any sex outside of marriage is an offense against God and any sex that attempts to artificially prevent reproduction or by its nature cannot result in reproduction is an offense against God. By this reasoning, homosexual sex is on the same level as any extra-marital sex and any sex that either uses artificial contraception or results in ejaculation in any place but a vagina.

pinqy [/QB]

Dang, DH is gonna miss oral sex...

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And on the 7th day, God said, "Let there be lips!"

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liebeslied
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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(semantic hijack)

I always thought celibacy meant no sex and no marriage. Chastity is no sex outside of marriage. Chastity is expected of everyone, and a few are "called" to celibacy (priests, nuns, etc.) So if you're single and not having sex, you're chaste. Whether or not you're celibate is semantic. A married person who never gets any nookie is not celibate; can't join priesthood.

It gets kind of wiggy when we talk about Jesus' mother, Mary. Some people think that she never ever had sex with her husband, Joseph. I heard a theory that she abstained from sex for religious reasons, but Joseph, an older widower, married her to take care of his children. So she was basically a babysitting nun.
Other people figure there's no reason to believe that a married couple wouldn't have sex, it was pretty much a requirement.
I don't really care, it's their business.

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Eddylizard
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Celibacy is the deliberate choice not to have 'nookie' as you call it, be it for religious or other reasons.

I have no cites, but I have seen on the television, and have heard of married couples who have chosen celibacy, yet are a married couple in every other sense of the word.

If you don't choose celibacy, but don't get any, I think the proper linuistic term is 'unfortunate.' [Smile]

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"Ladies and gentlemen, this is what is commonly known as money. It comes in all sizes, colours, and denominations - like people."

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Dactingyl
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quote:
Originally posted by Eddylizard:
quote:
And religion is equally a choice,
As to 'is homosexuality nature or nurture?' Who cares? It's really not important. Scientists, please, accept there are a number of people who attracted to the same sex, and that affects me less than my 'choice' to have toast this morning rather than cornflakes has affected Kellogs. Spend your time more profitably inventing a cure for avian flu, or a non-drip teapot.
I think that is one my all time favourite postings on snopes!

One of my best mates is a bisexual Christian, he personally believes that homosexuality is wrong and only dates women. However, it doesn't bother him a jolt than I'm gay and is always receptive to my boyfriends. His stance on these things is "You're not a Christian, I don't expect you to follow my moral code". This is actually the view of most of my Christian friends and I find it hard to equate their religion as the same one the people who wrote the drivel linked by the OP belong to.

And as for the "How many times gay men have sex" statistics, I bloody wish!

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Dactingyl is meant to sound a bit like Christingle.

It's not very good but I couldn't think of anything else.

Sorry.

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LeaflessMapleTree
The twelve shopping days 'til Christmas


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quote:
By this reasoning, homosexual sex is on the same level as any extra-marital sex and any sex that either uses artificial contraception or results in ejaculation in any place but a vagina.
Reminds me of a reeeally funny sketch I saw on some TV show once...maybe MAD TV or SNL, can't remember.

Preist: (Something along the lines of what I quoted above)

Guy wanted to join this church: "Sooo sex ending in ejaculation in her mouth...?

Priest: Sin.

Guy: Ass?

Priest: Sin.

Guy: My car's upholstery?

Priest: Sin. And probably hard to get out.

Guy: My pants???

Priest: *shakes his head sadly*

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"For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any."
-Silas Sparkhammer

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by liebeslied:
It gets kind of wiggy when we talk about Jesus' mother, Mary. Some people think that she never ever had sex with her husband, Joseph. I heard a theory that she abstained from sex for religious reasons, but Joseph, an older widower, married her to take care of his children.

Judaism does not particularly value virginity as a spiritual state, so I don't know what you're referring to here.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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beaver_slayer
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NobbyNobbs

quote:
By the way, I've come across a wonderful riposte to those who claim that homosexuality is a choice.

I say, " It is? Ok, then, choose to be homosexual for the next half hour."

Have anyone ever succumbed to your requests to be a murderer for half an hour? Ditto! Murder is genetic.
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ygarl
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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OOoooo! I like this whole "Extra burdens" bit to do with Roman Catholisism!

Speaking as a former (almost evangelically devout) Roman Catholic, I can tell you what the Church's position is on this little morsel!

But first - a story:

During an interview with Mother Theresa, she was asked about if her organisation got so much money, why was there still poverty in New Delhi - not to mention the whole of India. The interview reaconed she was looking at the long end of some several tens of millions of dollars pumped into the area.

Mother Theresa said, to paraphrase, that she did not want to wipe out poverty among the people entirely because the poor were more holy than people who were well-off - simply by the "virtue" (word my own, and deliberately chosen) of their very poverty itself.
In other words: Blessed are the poor in spirit - theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven!

To traditional Catholics, having a burden to bear gives you more opprotunity to acheive salvation - and with the added benefit of less time repenting your sins in Purgatory - than someone who has it "easy".
So being gay, and completely abstaining from homosexual contact or thoughts, would virtually ensure that you would have an EASIER time getting into heaven than someone who is hetrosexual. This is because the strength required to walk the straight-and-narrow (pardon the pun) would mean you achieved more holiness by not succumbing to sin!

"Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. "

In other words, being homosexual and not ACTING on those urges is holier than being straight because it's harder work!

Seriously, folks.

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Canuckistan
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quote:
Originally posted by beaver_slayer:
Have anyone ever succumbed to your requests to be a murderer for half an hour? Ditto! Murder is genetic.

This analogy only works if you view homosexuality exclusively as an action as opposed to a state of being.

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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Canuckistan
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quote:
Originally posted by ygarl:
So being gay, and completely abstaining from homosexual contact or thoughts, would virtually ensure that you would have an EASIER time getting into heaven than someone who is hetrosexual. This is because the strength required to walk the straight-and-narrow (pardon the pun) would mean you achieved more holiness by not succumbing to sin!

Which goes back to my earlier point about who's causing the burden. If the Church is the authority on sin, and the Church considers homosexuality a sin, then the Church is responsible for the burden, no?

(Not disagreeing with your analysis in the least, ygarl; just expanding on it a bit.)

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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LeaflessMapleTree
The twelve shopping days 'til Christmas


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quote:
Originally posted by beaver_slayer:
NobbyNobbs

quote:
By the way, I've come across a wonderful riposte to those who claim that homosexuality is a choice.

I say, " It is? Ok, then, choose to be homosexual for the next half hour."

Have anyone ever succumbed to your requests to be a murderer for half an hour? Ditto! Murder is genetic.
A better question, I think, is if homosexuality were a choice, then WHY on earth would people choose it?

Homosexuals are often ostracized in society, called sinners, told to burn in hell, killed on occasion, and have a harder time finding a partner given that most people are not homosexual, so the numbers are limiting. If one could just "choose" to be straight, then why make the "choice" to be gay in a world where tolerance is only beginning to emerge and subject themselves to all of the above?

It would seem to me as sensible as a white person having the option to "turn" black in the Southern US during the 1960s.

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"For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any."
-Silas Sparkhammer

Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Demonic Matt
I Saw Three Shipments


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Seeing as they quote The Bible, the whole article is pretty much anti-gay christian propaganda, I wouldn't take any of it seriously.
Posts: 60 | From: North Wales | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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