posted
I don't know if this has been broached before, but a couple of my friends mentioned being concerned about it, so I thought I'd bring it up here on snopes, where the truth usually outs eventually.
What IS the deal with obscenity, indecency, and slash fanfiction? We all know that slash fanfic is technically illegal from the copyright standpoint, but what about from the decency/obscenity standpoint? I know CDA was struck down (something like that,) but I'm sure there are other laws in place that restrict this sort of thing. Should slash fans be concerned?
Furthermore, considering that at least half of all slash fanfiction readers/writers are under 18, is there a minors issue here? Also, what about all those slash RPGs on Livejournal? Those can get pretty smutty, but Livejournal doesn't seem to mind (either that, or they don't know.) If there was some kind of decency law in one of the players' home states, wouldn't that make the whole thing illegal? Also, what about said RPGs that involve minors? I happen to know for a fact that some of them do.
I was thinking of joining an RPG with some pretty smutty slash content (but more of a magic/fantasy focal point,) until I learned (a little late, I might add,) that the moderator was only 16. WTF, mates? How on earth can that be legal? Doesn't that make everyone in the RPG a felon or something, if not because of the slash itself, because of the minor?
-------------------- "I'm so awesome, you don't even know I'm awesome!" Posts: 213 | From: Ohio | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I don't know the legal specifics, but by understanding is that minors can commit obscenities as much as they want -- they just can't expose other minors to them (which is sort of a paradoxical position, since the minor is exposing him/herself to the obscenity). So 16-year-olds can have sex, but they can't watch people have sex without parental consent and guidance.
But do please correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, double-standard though it may be, I think people (and prosecutors) will let a lot more slide in text than they will in images.
--Logoboros
-------------------- "If Men were Wise, the Most arbitrary Princes could not hurt them. If they are not wise, the Freest Government is compelld to be a Tyranny."
posted
My understanding was that though often (and perhaps predominantly) homosexual in nature, the "slash" in slash fiction could really be any two characters. So Mulder/Scully stories are still "slash" stories, as long as they feature an erotic encounter between Mulder and Scully.
--Logoboros
-------------------- "If Men were Wise, the Most arbitrary Princes could not hurt them. If they are not wise, the Freest Government is compelld to be a Tyranny."
quote:Originally posted by Logoboros: My understanding was that though often (and perhaps predominantly) homosexual in nature, the "slash" in slash fiction could really be any two characters. So Mulder/Scully stories are still "slash" stories, as long as they feature an erotic encounter between Mulder and Scully.
--Logoboros
In pretty much the same way "gay" means "happy"- no one ever refers to M/F fanfic as slash.
Ana
-------------------- My great grandfather planted that tree! Posts: 4862 | From: Brooklyn | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Other terms bandied about are "yaoi" and "yuri." Yaoi (pronounced as "yowie", approximately) are male/male sexual stories, and yuri are female/female. They're mostly used by anime and manga fans, but I've seen them apply to other genres, especially when someone has drawn something in an anime style. There are actual Japanese works that are published yaoi and yuri, but I've usually seen the controversy applied to characters that aren't of that nature in the originals.
-------------------- "But about the reindeer...what kind of a nose shines? How did he get it? Maybe it's not a reindeer after all. It could be something else." Posts: 2216 | From: Winston-Salem, NC | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Slash fanfic bothers me and yet doesn't at the same time. I dabble in fan fiction and I've written a couple of pieces that were M/F but M/M and F/F sort of seemed bothersome to me. Even when writing relationship stories I refuse to fall into the trap of cheap descriptions of sex-which seems to be the point of slash. I am far enough past my teen years that I know such things can not be written well. Unless there's a character predisposition (for example there was a good deal of hinting about Olivia and Alex on L&O:SVU so I can see the cause if not the point of such stories) it seems to me that it's crossing over into dangerous territory. It would seem to me that it would be a waste of time for a producer or other interested party to be bothered enough by regular fan fiction to take action but I could see slash causing a backlash. Changing the personalities of the characters is not something that seems like a wise idea. One possibility from a somewhat detached, standpoint could be that underage writers of slash fanfics are exploring and testing societal boundaries. Trying to figure out what their preferences are. Sexual norms are boundaries that are easier tested in a "safe" (fictional) arena. So from that point of view it's not so different than going to horror films or the telling of urban legends. Teenagers wonder about things they've never done and most probably are less willing to experiment with same sex relations and thus that fascination is there. Re-writing familiar characters in situations like that is a relatively risk free way of toying with the unknown. Sidenote-if I remember correctly many fan fiction terms came from the Star Trek fanfic universe. For example---Mary Sues-an idealized projection of the author who becomes the hero of the tale and often a love interest for the lead character and Slash-Kirk/Spock as the first blatant usage of the genre, being the two that spring to mind.
radio "proud author of what may well be the lone college paper on fanfiction" sweetheart
-------------------- I ramble. I am human. I am trapped inside of time.--Douglas Coupland Posts: 183 | From: East Nashville, TN | Registered: May 2004
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posted
From what I can tell, it's rare for creators/producers/companies to go after fanfiction slash or otherwise. There was a case of an author requesting a section of fanfics based on his/her novel be taken down at fanfiction.net, but that's the worst case I've seen so far with fanfiction. A while ago, Square-Enix ordered a group of fans developing a rather impressive 3D fangame based on Chrono Trigger to stop working on it, but that's the first time I've heard of a company stopping a production of a fangame. It seems to me that as long as you're not selling the game for profit and you credit the respective authors, fangames, fanfiction, and the like are fine. I suppose most companies think it's free, harmless publicity and don't really see any threat to them, but that maybe not the case. They probably don't know or just don't care.
Adding on to what Radical Dory said, apparently in Japan, copyright laws are a bit more lenient. There are fan doujishin [basically fan comics] all over the place that the artists can actually sell for profit without getting into trouble. Mind you, most of these doujishin are highly pornographic.
I should also point out that the fangame Square Enix got on wasn't going to be sold, so I don't know why they went after it. It looked extremely impressive though.
-------------------- Okay, just to make it clear, there is a real world out there. No really, there is. I checked. Posts: 886 | From: Suffolk, VA | Registered: Mar 2005
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rotten little boys
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
quote:Originally posted by Note: From what I can tell, it's rare for creators/producers/companies to go after fanfiction slash or otherwise. Adding on to what Radical Dory said, apparently in Japan, copyright laws are a bit more lenient. There are fan doujishin [basically fan comics] all over the place that the artists can actually sell for profit without getting into trouble. Mind you, most of these doujishin are highly pornographic.
So that is why you see so many fanfiction and fan art of anime. And yes, the doujishin is pornographic, but no more so than a Penthouse I think. My 2cents worth. YMMV
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posted
If I'm not mistaken, fanfiction.net got a special request from Anne Rice herself to remove all the Vampire Chronicles fanfics because there was so much slash.
...or something. If it's still up, I'll go check.
p.s. fanfiction.net was THE site for fanfiction. That quickly changed when they no longer allowed NC-17 rated fanfics, and I think now they don't even allow R-rated ones... I haven't been there in a while. Let me go check.
[edit] Okay, here's what they say (and I was only able to get to this information by signing in and acting like I was going to upload a story):
FanFiction.Net respects the expressed wishes of the following authors and will not archive entries based on their work:
P.N. Elrod Raymond Feist Terry Goodkind Laurell K. Hamilton Robin Hobb Anne McCaffrey Dennis L. McKiernan Robin McKinley Irene Radford Anne Rice Nora Roberts/J.D. Robb
It doesn't list any reasons, but Anne Rice was the first to ask them to remove her stuff, and I'm pretty dang sure the reason they listed was because of the homosexual stuff.
They've also changed the ratings... I was right, they no longer allow NC-17 rated fics (now called MA). However,
Please note FanFiction.Net does not accept explicit content, Fiction Rating: MA, and the rating is only presented for reference.
And their definition of MA is "Content is only suitable for mature adults. May contain explicit language and adult themes."
The next best thing is rated M, which is "Not suitable for children or teens below the age of 16 with possible strong but non-explicit adult themes, references to violence, and strong coarse language."
-------------------- A dyslexic man walks into a bra. Posts: 541 | From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I am in a couple slash/RPG jrock related communities on LJ and so far so good. We do have a rule though that all NC17 stories are locked which is silly considering that one of the mods is underage but there you go.
Don't get me started on fanfiction.net though; that site in my opinion is quite lame. It is going to get to the point one of these days where their highest allowed rating is going to be G.
Posts: 1198 | From: in the cyberlab . . . | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Go draw me a Circle: What IS the deal with obscenity, indecency, and slash fanfiction? We all know that slash fanfic is technically illegal from the copyright standpoint,
No, it isn't. It comes under either 'fair use' or 'the parody exception'.
See 17 Loy.L.A.Ent.L.J. 651.
-------------------- "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch Posts: 3307 | From: Charleston, WV | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Illuminati-atrix: Don't get me started on fanfiction.net though; that site in my opinion is quite lame. It is going to get to the point one of these days where their highest allowed rating is going to be G.
You're telling me... I used to upload one or two fanfics a week, but since they started with that stupid rule, I just gave up. It's freakin' ridiculous.
-------------------- A dyslexic man walks into a bra. Posts: 541 | From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by inkiemouse: If I'm not mistaken, fanfiction.net got a special request from Anne Rice herself to remove all the Vampire Chronicles fanfics because there was so much slash...
IIRC, don't some of Rice's works feature homoerotica?
Ana
-------------------- My great grandfather planted that tree! Posts: 4862 | From: Brooklyn | Registered: Sep 2000
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ticrazyguy
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
Ana, never read the books but have seen the movies. With that, I thought i saw some homosexual overtones. Rice doesn't seem like the kind of person who would mind homosexual relationships either in her books or fanfiction.
Does anybody know for a FACT that she didn't want stories based on her work on fanfiction.net? If not, my guess she doesn't want people tinkering with her art. Being anal and (over?)protective of her art I can see.
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-------------------- "The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep." Robert Frost, Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening Posts: 1701 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Originally posted by ticrazyguy: Ana, never read the books but have seen the movies. With that, I thought i saw some homosexual overtones. Rice doesn't seem like the kind of person who would mind homosexual relationships either in her books or fanfiction.
Does anybody know for a FACT that she didn't want stories based on her work on fanfiction.net? If not, my guess she doesn't want people tinkering with her art. Being anal and (over?)protective of her art I can see.
I only heard that the homosexuality was the reason she didn't want her work on the site (and I agree with you - that assumption would be completely ridiculous!), but I know for a fact (based on what the owners of fanfiction.net have been saying for years) that Anne Rice doesn't want stories based on her work on the site.
Is it that you don't believe that the owners said that? If that's the case, then I can screencap it... But if you suspect that the owners of the site are just saying that to be ninnyheads, then I don't see what I can do o_o;;
-------------------- A dyslexic man walks into a bra. Posts: 541 | From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
If fanfiction was illegal, fanfiction.net (where I'm a regular author) would have been shut down a long time ago. I've even had writing assignments in school that could fall under the fanfiction category. I would say the one time (besides selling the work) it could be legally iffy is when you write fanfics about real people (ff.net no longer allows this.)
Besides anime/manga, there's also a large video game fanfic community. That's what all mine are about. If anybody is interested, on one message board I used to frequent, several users (myself included) compiled a dictionary of fanfiction terms.
Posts: 885 | From: Florida | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Actually, most doujin are fairly harmless. While there is an active pornographic doujinshi movement, most doujin, while perhaps having hints of shonen ai and the like where it didn't exist in the original manga/anime, are fairly tame. Most are just simple fan comics without graphic overtones.
I have heard of American companies going after American doujin writers (especially pornographic ones), but as Note said, publishers in Japan tend to be more lenient, although the occasional lawsuit has happened.
-------------------- "But about the reindeer...what kind of a nose shines? How did he get it? Maybe it's not a reindeer after all. It could be something else." Posts: 2216 | From: Winston-Salem, NC | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Illuminati-atrix: Don't get me started on fanfiction.net though; that site in my opinion is quite lame. It is going to get to the point one of these days where their highest allowed rating is going to be G.
You're telling me... I used to upload one or two fanfics a week, but since they started with that stupid rule, I just gave up. It's freakin' ridiculous.
LJ is getting to be one of the only places that does allow the good stuff and that is a shame. If I had the webspace I wouldn't mind starting a site of my own for the fanfics.
quote:but I know for a fact (based on what the owners of fanfiction.net have been saying for years) that Anne Rice doesn't want stories based on her work on the site.
She's probably afraid that our writing would be better than hers! Posts: 1198 | From: in the cyberlab . . . | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote: What IS the deal with obscenity, indecency, and slash fanfiction? We all know that slash fanfic is technically illegal from the copyright standpoint,
No, it isn't. It comes under either 'fair use' or 'the parody exception'.
Be careful of such assumptions! It depends on whose legal system you use. It is dangerous to assume that all web hosts operate in countries where such things are legal/protected. Since the web is international, whether something is protected by 'fair use' or 'parody' depends on where it's hosted (where the server physically is), the nationality of the domain owner, the nationality of the author (whether his native legal system protects him) and all sorts of things. A lot of webmasters prefer not to take the risk since a good lawyer will look for someone and some way to sue.
There was some Harry Potter/Malfoy slash around - all written by youngsters! I'm not sure if it is still on the web.
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