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Author Topic: Rose admits betting on baseball
Pogue Ma-humbug
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http://www.kypost.com/2004/01/05/rose010504.html

quote:
NEW YORK -- After 14 years of denials, Pete Rose has finally come clean and admitted he bet on baseball while manager of the Reds
quote:
"Yes, sir, I did bet on baseball,'' Rose told commissioner Bud Selig during a meeting in November 2002 about Rose's lifetime ban.

"How often?'' Selig asked.

"Four or five times a week,'' Rose replied.

And he still wants to manage!

Pogue

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Let's drink to the causes in your life:
Your family, your friends, the union, your wife.

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Bulldon
The Red and the Green Stamps


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i wouldnt care if he gets in the hall, but he should never be associated with baseball as a manager, coach, GM. i dont see how you can take actions knowing the consequences and not understand when when it happens.
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BoKu
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quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Banana Man:
And he still wants to manage!

What are the odds of that happening?
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snopes
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quote:
What are the odds of that happening?
I'd say pretty good as long as George Steinbrenner is running a MLB team.

- snopes

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Mouse
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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ESPN Commentary

--------------------
"You see? The mysteries of the Universe are revealed when you break stuff." Coop from MegasXLR

"I distrust who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -- Susan B. Anthony

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Pogue Ma-humbug
Happy Christmas (Malls are Open)


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quote:
Originally posted by BoKu:
quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Banana Man:
And he still wants to manage!

What are the odds of that happening?
The Cincinnati Reds this year gave new manager Dave Miley a one-year contract. Speculation was that he didn't get a multi-year contract because upper management was holding the door open for Pete Rose's reinstatement.

It would be an extremely popular move in Cincinnati. Rose is a beloved local icon. Making Rose the namager would help fans forget -- at elast for a while -- about the crappy team they have.

Pogue

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Let's drink to the causes in your life:
Your family, your friends, the union, your wife.

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snopes
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The Confessions of Pete Rose
By FAY VINCENT

So word is that Pete Rose finally admits in his new book that he bet on baseball. I guess I am supposed to feel vindicated since he spent the last 14 years calling John Dowd and me names. Mr. Dowd was the baseball lawyer who did the investigation of Mr. Rose and prepared a report we're now told was accurate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/02/opinion/02VINC.html

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pob14
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by Bulldon:
i wouldnt care if he gets in the hall, but he should never be associated with baseball as a manager, coach, GM.

I hear this sometimes, and the logic of it escapes me. He should be eligible for baseball's highest honor, but shouldn't be allowed to coach?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he should be allowed on the field either. I thought it was a travesty when he was invited to the All-Century Team thing - hell, I thought it was a travesty that he was eligible to be elected. I think if he buys a ticket to a game, it should be physically wrestled away from him and given to some poor kid who might actually watch the game instead of preening for the cameras. (Yes, I do feel better now. Thanks.)

Frankly I think he should just shut up and go away.

But I don't see why there should be a lesser standard for the Hall of Fame than for active participation. That strikes me as similar to giving a soldier a Dishonorable Discharge and the Medal of Honor in one breath.

POB

--------------------
Patrick

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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No way in hell should Rose ever be allowed back into a baseball stadium, even as a fan. He broke baseball's - no, sport's - most sacred rule, and that's that. The best comp I can think of to gambling on your team is what Stephen Glass and Jayson Blair did. Not only did they cause serious, irreparable harm to the New Republic and the New York Times, but they caused harm to the entire industry of journalism.

The fact is that it is very, very hard to prove that someone has thrown games. Hell, I still see people argue that Shoeless Joe Jackson didn't participate in the Black Sox fix. For that reason, you have to, have to, have to, kick out anybody who shows even the semblance of fixing things to their credit. Even if they're (sporadically) betting on their to win (when Mario Soto isn't pitching).

John Craven

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snopes
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quote:
But I don't see why there should be a lesser standard for the Hall of Fame than for active participation. That strikes me as similar to giving a soldier a Dishonorable Discharge and the Medal of Honor in one breath.
Look at it this way: Pete Rose's qualifications for the Hall of Fame are based upon feats he accomplished long before he began betting on baseball. If a soldier earned a Medal of Honor for throwing himself on a grenade in Vietnam in 1967, would you take it away from him if he was dishonorably discharged in 1987?

- snopes

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Pogue Ma-humbug
Happy Christmas (Malls are Open)


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quote:
Look at it this way: Pete Rose's qualifications for the Hall of Fame are based upon feats he accomplished long before he began betting on baseball. If a soldier earned a Medal of Honor for throwing himself on a grenade in Vietnam in 1967, would you take it away from him if he was dishonorably discharged in 1987?

Yes, it's not a matter of taking something away from Rose. He was betting while still active as a player-manager, (he never officially retired) and such activities must be taken into consideration when determining if he should be in the Hall of Fame.

Pogue

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Let's drink to the causes in your life:
Your family, your friends, the union, your wife.

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snopes
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quote:
Yes, it's not a matter of taking something away from Rose. He was betting while still active as a player-manager, (he never officially retired) and such activities must be taken into consideration when determining if he should be in the Hall of Fame.
That isn't an answer to the hypothetical question I posed, which had to do with revoking an honor already awarded for something which took place after the act that earned the honor in the first place.

If you want to make it analagous, consider that if Pete Rose had retired at the end of his playing days, he might very well have been voted into the Hall of Fame before his betting on baseball became publicly known. Would it be right to kick him out of the Hall of Fame under those circumstances?

- snopes

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by snopes:
quote:
But I don't see why there should be a lesser standard for the Hall of Fame than for active participation. That strikes me as similar to giving a soldier a Dishonorable Discharge and the Medal of Honor in one breath.
Look at it this way: Pete Rose's qualifications for the Hall of Fame are based upon feats he accomplished long before he began betting on baseball. If a soldier earned a Medal of Honor for throwing himself on a grenade in Vietnam in 1967, would you take it away from him if he was dishonorably discharged in 1987?
Three points:

1. If said soldier received a dishonorable discharge for treason, then yes, absolutely I would rescind the Purple Heart, because who's to say that he had the country's best interests at heart?

2. Had Rose already been inducted into the Hall when he was banned, I would probably grudgingly accept it. After all, there are several players currently in the HOF who in all probability bet on baseball. Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker for two.

However, baseball now has the opportunity to enforce a long-held rule before it's too late. The only way baseball can allow Rose access to the Hall is to reinstate him (see below), and that's a horrible, horrible idea.

3. Contrary to popular belief, the Baseball Hall of Fame is not run by Major League Baseball. It's more closely linked to MLB than, say, the Basketball Hall of Fame is to the NBA, but in the end they make their own decisions. They decided(I think) shortly before the ban not to allow any permanently ineligible player to be considered for voting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this came in the wake of another wave of support for Shoeless Joe Jackson following the movie "Eight Men Out." If you look at stats alone, by the way, Jackson's got an extremely good case for the Hall. Despite, of course, the fact that he accepted money to throw a World Series.

Anyway, I for one think that this ban is moral and just. Rose didn't just break a minor rule that would have caused him to get booted out for a year or two; he broke Rule 21(d), which is posted in every locker room in Major League Baseball and has for years:

quote:
(d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or
employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in
connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared
ineligible for one year.

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall
bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which
the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

Rose bet on the Reds. We've had the evidence for years. This is open and shut.

John Craven

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Mr. Furious
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The fact that he's such an insufferable asshole isn't helping his cause, either.

--------------------
"He's not gonna let me in, I'm Mr. Dirty Mouth!"
- Jeffrey Coho (Craig Bierko), Boston Legal

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Pogue Ma-humbug
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny in the Slick with the pipe:
Three points:

1. If said soldier received a dishonorable discharge for treason, then yes, absolutely I would rescind the Purple Heart, because who's to say that he had the country's best interests at heart?

I disagree. (Actually, the original question stipulated the Medal of Honor, but the answer is the same.) The medal is given for a specific individual achievement, not a lifetime of service. No one, for instance, is saying Rose should be stripped of his MVP trophy or batting titles.

quote:
2. Had Rose already been inducted into the Hall when he was banned, I would probably grudgingly accept it. After all, there are several players currently in the HOF who in all probability bet on baseball. Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker for two.
I'm not aware of any questions about Cobb and Speaker betting, but I agree with the overall statement. I think there's a vast difference between banning and stripping someone of an honor after the fact. Don't forget Rose was intimately involved in the game when he was caught betting. I think that fact is tremendously important.

quote:
3. Contrary to popular belief, the Baseball Hall of Fame is not run by Major League Baseball. It's more closely linked to MLB than, say, the Basketball Hall of Fame is to the NBA, but in the end they make their own decisions. They decided(I think) shortly before the ban not to allow any permanently ineligible player to be considered for voting.
Not quite. Major League Baseball insisted on the provision. It feared that writers -- who at the time were favorably inclided to Rose -- would vote him in to the Hall despite the ban. Indeed, several have voted for him as a form of protest, and some continued to do so.

Pogue

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Let's drink to the causes in your life:
Your family, your friends, the union, your wife.

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Robigus, Frozen Mushroom
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny in the Slick with the pipe:

Anyway, I for one think that this ban is moral and just. Rose didn't just break a minor rule that would have caused him to get booted out for a year or two; he broke Rule 21(d), which is posted in every locker room in Major League Baseball and has for years:

quote:
(d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or
employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in
connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared
ineligible for one year.

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall
bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which
the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

Rose bet on the Reds. We've had the evidence for years. This is open and shut.

John Craven

In the link provided in the original posting, Rose states that he did not bet on the Reds. Is there information elsewhere that shows that he did? If, as he states in the article, he did not bet on the Reds, then his one year ineligibility should be over by now.
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Pogue Ma-humbug
Happy Christmas (Malls are Open)


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quote:
Originally posted by Robigus, kitchen, with a mushroom:
In the link provided in the original posting, Rose states that he did not bet on the Reds.

No, Rose said he never bet against the Reds. He admitted he bet on them to win.

Pogue

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Let's drink to the causes in your life:
Your family, your friends, the union, your wife.

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Robigus, Frozen Mushroom
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Mahone in the den with a pen:
quote:
Originally posted by Robigus, kitchen, with a mushroom:
In the link provided in the original posting, Rose states that he did not bet on the Reds.

No, Rose said he never bet against the Reds. He admitted he bet on them to win.

Pogue

Ah, a small but critical difference.
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chinpira
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Hey, everyone lies, right?
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pob14
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Mahone in the den with a pen:
I'm not aware of any questions about Cobb and Speaker betting

Cobb and Spoke were both accused by (IIRC) Dutch Leonard (the older one). Both were acquitted.

And I for one would advocate kicking his butt out of the Hall if he were already in.

POB

--------------------
Patrick

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Gale
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Mahone in the den with a pen:
quote:
Originally posted by Robigus, kitchen, with a mushroom:
In the link provided in the original posting, Rose states that he did not bet on the Reds.

No, Rose said he never bet against the Reds. He admitted he bet on them to win.

Pogue

Which is kind of like a sin of ommission. Maybe he didn't bet on them to lose, but as an insider, when he didn't bet on them to win--that is when he placed no bet--that would tip off the odds makers.

Plus, like Furious says, he's such an asshole. I just plain don't like the man.

Rose: I bet on baseball. I'm sorry.
Gayle: Tough luck. Go away.

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Mr. Furious
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quote:
Originally posted by Gayle:
Rose: I bet on baseball. I'm sorry.
Gayle: Tough luck. Go away.

I was thinking of something more like this:

Rose: I bet on baseball. I still don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I have to say I'm sorry so I can sell a lot of books and get into the Hall of Fame. I lied about betting on baseball for 14 years, what's the big deal about lying about being sorry? People are simps and they'll still support me.
Furious: Say hi to Ty Cobb for me when you get to Hell.
Rose: Hey, I never killed anybody or beat up a cripple in the stands for heckling me.
Furious: I wouldn't put it past you. By the way, I'll say hi to Ray Fosse for you when I get to Heaven.

--------------------
"He's not gonna let me in, I'm Mr. Dirty Mouth!"
- Jeffrey Coho (Craig Bierko), Boston Legal

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Greg of Winter
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quote:
Originally posted by pob14:

But I don't see why there should be a lesser standard for the Hall of Fame than for active participation. That strikes me as similar to giving a soldier a Dishonorable Discharge and the Medal of Honor in one breath.

POB

One of the Rangers (the Ewan McGregor character, Grimes. his real name escapes me) involved in the "Black Hawk Down" incident received a Silver Star for his gallantry in combat.

He is currently serving a lengthy prison term in Fort Leavenworth for child molestation. He still has his Silver Star.

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by moi:
quote:
Originally posted by Robigus, kitchen, with a mushroom:
Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall
bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which
the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.



In the link provided in the original posting, Rose states that he did not bet on the Reds. Is there information elsewhere that shows that he did? If, as he states in the article, he did not bet on the Reds, then his one year ineligibility should be over by now.

No, re-read Rule 21 (d). It doesn't say "Anyone who has a duty to perform in a game, unless he only bet on them to win and stuff." It says, if you bet on a game in which you have the duty to perform, you're gone forever. The end.

John Craven

--------------------
Give big space to the festive dog that makes sport in roadway. Avoid entanglement of dog with wheel spokes.

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by MrGreg:
quote:
Originally posted by pob14:

But I don't see why there should be a lesser standard for the Hall of Fame than for active participation. That strikes me as similar to giving a soldier a Dishonorable Discharge and the Medal of Honor in one breath.

POB

One of the Rangers (the Ewan McGregor character, Grimes. his real name escapes me) involved in the "Black Hawk Down" incident received a Silver Star for his gallantry in combat.

He is currently serving a lengthy prison term in Fort Leavenworth for child molestation. He still has his Silver Star.

I'll paraphrase what I said earlier: child molestation does not throw the very fabric of what the Army is fighting for into doubt. In spors, gambling on games that you have a stake in does. If said officer was serving a lengthy prison term for treason, then you would have a better comparison.

John Craven

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Give big space to the festive dog that makes sport in roadway. Avoid entanglement of dog with wheel spokes.

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Don Gato
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quote:
Originally posted by Gayle:
Which is kind of like a sin of ommission. Maybe he didn't bet on them to lose, but as an insider, when he didn't bet on them to win--that is when he placed no bet--that would tip off the odds makers.

First of all, I agree with Gayle that the line between betting to win and betting to lose is often blurry -- there's also the question of whether Rose ever allowed his bets to determine decisions such as when to use a certain pitcher, etc.

But there's also the question of whether we can take anything Rose says at face value. This is a man who denied for 15 years that he ever bet on baseball, admits it in order to sell books, but still claims he didn't bet on the Reds. In the meantime, it seems pretty clear that Rose hasn't really come to terms with his gambling problem. Despite the fact that gambling destroyed his career and (indirectly) led to him serving time in prison, he says he still goes to the racetrack. Uh-huh. Reminds me of when Dwight Gooden, after his first drug suspension, claimed he could still handle the occasional beer.

The New York Times had an article a few weeks ago in which the reporter when to a Gamblers Anonymous meeting and got their reactions. All of them were sure he must have bet against the Reds -- they found it inconceivable that an addict wouldn't push every single angle he had control over to win a bet. I'm inclined to believe them, and I'm certainly not inclined to believe an admitted liar like Rose.

Don Gato

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Pogue Ma-humbug
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Rose will appear tonight at the world's largest casino to sign his book and chat with "preferred" players.

He never seems to learn, does he?

Pogue

--------------------
Let's drink to the causes in your life:
Your family, your friends, the union, your wife.

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Don Gato:
The New York Times had an article a few weeks ago in which the reporter when to a Gamblers Anonymous meeting and got their reactions.

Yeah, but the real question is: as that article made it to print, did anybody associated with the Jayson Blair incident have a hand in it?

But seriously, I believe that Rose bet on baseball not because he's a known liar (although he is), but because baseball made a detailed investigation into the matter and found that he did. Not on a regular schedule. According to some, not when certain pitchers pitched. And there are a TON of things you can do as a manager to help your team win one game but that will cost them games in the long run:

- Leave your ace starter in longer than he's shown he's been able to pitch in the past, making him probably less effective in his next game and possibly more seriously injured.

- Bench your rookie third baseman who is struggling at the plate in favor of the established vet who isn't that good but is consistent, thus retarding the youngster's growth.

- Instruct your center fielder who's nursing a bad knee to run all out on the basepaths and the field and risk getting him more badly hurt than he already is.

- Play yourself at first base on games you're not betting on because you know damn well you can't hit anymore and the subtraction of a bat from the lineup means that your odds are going to be that much better when you put in Nick Esasky.

The problem with all these ways of affecting the game is that there's no way to tell whether they're just bad managerial moves or if they're being done because the manager is crooked. For that reason, if a guy associated with the game even acts like he might be crooked, he's gone, never to return.

John Craven

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Give big space to the festive dog that makes sport in roadway. Avoid entanglement of dog with wheel spokes.

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Roy012
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quote:
One of the Rangers (the Ewan McGregor character, Grimes. his real name escapes me) involved in the "Black Hawk Down" incident received a Silver Star for his gallantry in combat.

He is currently serving a lengthy prison term in Fort Leavenworth for child molestation. He still has his Silver Star.

Pogue already shot down this analogy, pretty well.
quote:
I disagree. (Actually, the original question stipulated the Medal of Honor, but the answer is the same.) The medal is given for a specific individual achievement, not a lifetime of service. No one, for instance, is saying Rose should be stripped of his MVP trophy or batting titles.


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"Excuse me, homes, but could you tell me how to get back to the interstate?"

Posts: 1245 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Greg of Winter
Xboxing Day


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quote:
Originally posted by A Roy Like Me, A Girl Like You:
Pogue already shot down this analogy, pretty well.

Yep, I saw that. I just wanted to provide a real-life example.

Somebody else mentioned it, but betting on the Reds to win doesn't let him off the hook.

Let's say Rose bet on the Reds to win, but the spread was 3 runs.

The Reds are up by 2. A non-betting manager wouldn't care about the spread, and simply care about the win.

Rose, however, would try to cover the spread by scoring more runs. He may manage the game differently. He could keep star players in the game longer to run up the score, or use star pitchers to ensure the other team doesn't close the gap, risking injury or making them too tired to play in a key game later, or risking a season-ending injury.

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Pogue Ma-humbug
Happy Christmas (Malls are Open)


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quote:
Originally posted by MrGreg:
Let's say Rose bet on the Reds to win, but the spread was 3 runs.

Does baseball bet like this? I though it was betting, say, three-to-win-two, as opposed to a spread.

Pogue

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Let's drink to the causes in your life:
Your family, your friends, the union, your wife.

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Mahone in the den with a pen:
quote:
Originally posted by MrGreg:
Let's say Rose bet on the Reds to win, but the spread was 3 runs.

Does baseball bet like this? I though it was betting, say, three-to-win-two, as opposed to a spread.
You're right; there's no spread on baseball. The problem with Rose's sporadic betting, though, is that the season is 162 games long and the object is to win enough of all of those to make it to the playoffs, not to win 25 or 30 special ones because the manager put some money on them.

Had Rose bet on his team to win in every single game that he managed, I actually probably wouldn't have a problem with it. However, he didn't do this, didn't even bet on a set schedule, and on at least one occasion (according to the Dowd Report) bet on baseball but *not* the Reds.

John Craven

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Give big space to the festive dog that makes sport in roadway. Avoid entanglement of dog with wheel spokes.

Posts: 4267 | From: Seattle | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
   

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