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Author Topic: The Frankenfood Myth
JR
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quote:
Originally posted by Pseudo_Croat:
So, is GM bad or not???

No. [Big Grin]

The technology is neutral, it's neither bad not good.

If done properly with appropriate attention paid to little details (like, say, biology/genetics/evolution/etc), GMOs could prove useful one day. However, 1) we don't need them and 2) the ones we have range from "mostly harmless" to "you have to be fokkin joking".

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Semper ubi sub ubi

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ranran yousei
The Red and the Green Stamps


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What I think people want most (since science won't be stopped, and neither will a possible money maker) is, labeling.

Not everyone wants GMO, whether it's safe or not. They just want to be able to make the choice clearly when buying food.

It's not fair to make those growing regular ol' non-GMO foods be the ones to label their food. Well, no one is making them, but for consumers to know that it is non-GMO, that's what they do. Same with organically grown foods. They have no choice if they want people to know that these foods are grown as nature intended.


ranran "not nice to fool with mother nature" yousei

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Richard W
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The "Frankenfood" idea is an easy target for the pro-GM lobby. I have no particular issue with the science involved, although there's always a case for more caution. It's the politics and implementation that have bigger problems, as JR said.

(edit) In other words, the most powerful part of the pro-GM lobby is interested in the technology because it provides ways for the corporations they represent to gain more control over food production. Which is kind of a bad thing if you grow or eat food. They hide behind the benevolent "it will solve all the world's food problems" line, but aren't actually interested in that. (Food problems are generally to do with distribution rather than production anyway).

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Pseudo_Croat
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So, GM technology isn't bad, the lobbyists are. Now how are we to stop the lobbyists?

- Pseudo "have we gotten to the truth yet?" Croat

--------------------
"At all events, people who deny the influence of smaller nations should remember that the Croats have the rest of us by the throats." - Norman Davies, Europe: A History

God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

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JR
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quote:
Originally posted by Pseudo_Croat:
Now how are we to stop the lobbyists?

Three words:

"La Brea" + "shuriken"


BTW, Some GMOs ARE bad. It's complicated. Not all harm is directly to humans.

How do you feel about honeybees?

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Pseudo_Croat
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quote:
Originally posted by JR:
Three words:

"La Brea" + "shuriken"

I meant seriously. How are we to reduce lobbyists' grip on the governament? Or are not all lobbyists bad? Now I'm really getting confused. [Confused]


quote:
BTW, Some GMOs ARE bad. It's complicated. Not all harm is directly to humans.
I have all the time in the world. Tell me about the good and bad of this. And be honest.

quote:
How do you feel about honeybees?
They're interesting creatures. But should we just get rid of all GM organisms just because of this? Or what approach should we take? How can I make sure this approach is taken?

All I want is the truth on thse matters - and in fact, the truth about everything. Where is it to be found?

- Pseudo_Croat

--------------------
"At all events, people who deny the influence of smaller nations should remember that the Croats have the rest of us by the throats." - Norman Davies, Europe: A History

God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

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Silas Sparkhammer
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quote:
Originally posted by JR:
"La Brea" + "shuriken"

How do you feel about honeybees?

Okay, you're way too cryptic for this literal-minded bloke... Would you please explain these two references?

My personal view is: I'll eat just about anything. If it doesn't kill lab mice or lab monkeys, it probably won't kill me. After all, I'm gonna be eating it, not having children with it...

Some living things are more "plastic" or "malleable" than others. Look at dogs, or maize: incredible changes from the original stock in a relatively short time. And we do continue to practice GM on maize, by re-hybridization with older grasses, to re-introduce genetic variation.

(There is more genetic variation in one small cornpatch in Honduras than in all the corn in Kansas...)

Silas (Navel Oranges and Cheetahs...) Sparkhammer

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ULTRAGLORIA
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Hybridization and GM are different.

Cross pollinate all you want. My garden is full of cultivars. No problems.

It's splicing genes from one species into another that has me concerned. LABLE the damned stuff so I can avoid buying it!

--------------------
A Lie can run around the world before the Truth can get its boots on. - Terry Pratchett

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; but everyone is not entitled to their own facts. - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Silas Sparkhammer
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quote:
Originally posted by ULTRAGOTHA:
Hybridization and GM are different.

Cross pollinate all you want. My garden is full of cultivars. No problems.

It's splicing genes from one species into another that has me concerned. LABLE the damned stuff so I can avoid buying it!

Why, exactly, does this bother you? How do you distinguish between cross-cultivated vegetables and gene-spliced vegetables? Neither exists in nature, and both are of huge advantage to civilization. A gene doesn't know how it came to reside within a genome.

I have no objection to labelling of products.

I have a *big* problem with you calling it "damned stuff" without at least an effort at an explanation.

Again, this goes into the stomach, and is destroyed. Do we concern ourselves with DNA from nuts, eggs, seeds, or other germinal foods? Does the DNA express itself in our offspring? Of course not!

There are some dangers in genetic research; the idea of "planned obsolescence" in plants -- plants that die after a time in order to protect the "copyright" is silly. But, again, the worst that could happen is that the gene gets out into the general family of grasses and other plants...and, being self-destructive, would quickly die.

Silas

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JR
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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
quote:
Originally posted by JR:
"La Brea" + "shuriken"

How do you feel about honeybees?

Okay, you're way too cryptic for this literal-minded bloke... Would you please explain these two references?

First of the "La Brea" + "shuriken"
This is the La Brea Tar Pits, basicly, that which gets in gets stuck in tar, and automatically fail their Dex check...

These are shuriken, they are pointy and you can throw them at things...

Hopefully that makes sense in the context of "What shall we do about lobbyists?" [Wink]

Now about honeybees....

This is a bit technical, so bear with me.


There's a bacterial disease of honeybees called "American foulbrood" (AFB). It is one of the most widespread and destructive diseases that afflict honeybees. It is spread by spores, and can easily spread among fairly distant hives. it starts in the gut of the bee and spreads. The only accepted treatment is oxytetracycline, a fairly cheap veterinary antibiotic that is easily fed to bees in fall. This has been an effective control for 40 years.

A couple of years ago, on two seperate continents, there were several simulataneous developments of anti-biotic resistant AFB. This has since spread. It is in the US and Canada, as well as South America.

Now, the question is, why would anti-biotic resistance suddenly show up, simulataneously, in such varied parts of the world, now?

The answer is N-(phosphonomethyl)glycine, Monsanto, and horizontal gene transfer (HGT).


N-(phosphonomethyl)glycine is better known as glyphosate, a herbicide. So far, this one doesn't look too bad. It'll kill any plants it touches, but it breaks down fairly innocuously in soil and water. It is fairly non-toxic to various wildlife, including honeybees, when used normally. All of this makes it a very popular herbicide. One of the better known brands is "Round-Up", manufactured by Monsanto.

Now, Monsanto would dearly like to improve the sales of Round-Up, but it can't be used extensively because it kills everything green. Enter genetic modification. Monsanto produced a wide variety of crop plant GMOs that are resistant to Round-UP. This means that farmers that plant "Round-Up Ready" (RR) crops can kill weeds with Monsanto's darling. This is pobviously great for Monsanto's bottom line, as the farmers have to buy their seed (every planting) from Monsanto, as well as increasing the sales of Round-Up.

Of course, there's a catch. RR crops yield lower than non-GM crops. So, what good is it? Well, it provides a handy "one-size fits all" solution for agribusiness. That's about it. You have to be able to afford the seed (every planting, you can't brown bag), and you have to be commited to buying a lot of glyphosate herbicide. This helps out Monsanto's bottom line immensely, but it has nothing to do with helping to end world hunger. Non-industrialized farmers aren't going to benefit from this at all.. as a matter of fact, the lower yields would hurt them. However (this is a tangent, I'll get back to the honeybees in a moment), the poor farmer doesn't actually have any choice, because those genes are floating on the wind from the agribusiness next door.

Back to the honeybees. Now, how exactly, do you make a plant herbicide resistant? Well, you get a bacterial gene that does the trick, then you stick it into the plant germline. It's kind of tricky because of homology. You see, you can stick any genes in, but you have to get them to express themselves. If you were to transplant the gene that coontrols human eyes colour into a corn plant, it wouldn't do much, because corn doesn't have eyes to express the colour in (I know it's more complicated than that, it's just a Q&D explaination). Now, when you get the gene from one species to transfer to another species it's called horizonatl gene transfer (HGT), and it's very, very rare. That's because the gene doesn't usually express itself, if it does, it requires energy to do so (remember those lower RR yields?) and it may not be beneficial, so good old natural selection (aka evolution) will get rid of it.

Now, HGT may be rare, but it happens in nature. The more similar the species are, the lower the homology barrier. Nature has managed to cross entire domains, never mind kindoms, phyla, and families all on her own as well, but those are, indeed, rare.

The corporations that are producing GMOs like to point out how hard it is to have HGT between kingdoms (plants to bacteria), the only problem is that that is an outright lie, because you took the gene out of bacteria it is not a plant gene, it is a bacteria gene, and the homology barrier is significantly lower than plant to bacteria.


Oh, yeah, bees. That disease is bacterial, remember...

Now, how would a herbicide resistant gene (that is safe for bees) cause this problem? Well, it isn't the herbicide resistant gene that is the problem. It's the marker gene (the gene they use to easily spot their inserted sequences).

THEY USED A BACTERIAL ANTI-BIOTIC RESISTANCE GENE AS A MARKER GENE.

Where it gets even stupider is the realization that they could have removed that gene before release. Although their legal department has come up with uses for it post-release.

Guess what. GMO genes transfer from pollen to the gut bacteria in bees. Remember where foulbrood infections start?

Uh-huh.

And that's only one example....

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Pseudo_Croat
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That's nice, JR, but what is the truth regarding GMO's? Should we use 'em or not? And what about serious ways to fight lobbyists? We obviously cannot kill them, so then what? How do I make sure my food does not contain GMO's? Should we really be concerned about these things at all?

- Pseudo "so many questions needing honest answers" Croat

--------------------
"At all events, people who deny the influence of smaller nations should remember that the Croats have the rest of us by the throats." - Norman Davies, Europe: A History

God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

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Four Kitties
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quote:
Originally posted by Pseudo_Croat:
That's nice, JR, but what is the truth regarding GMO's? Should we use 'em or not? And what about serious ways to fight lobbyists? We obviously cannot kill them, so then what? How do I make sure my food does not contain GMO's? Should we really be concerned about these things at all?

It depends.

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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chinaman
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Pseudo_Croat:
what is the truth regarding GMO's?

Some are good- some aren't

Should we use 'em or not?

Some yes--some no

And what about serious ways to fight lobbyists? We obviously cannot kill them, so then what?

How is this obvious?? If you only want to fight them,I would suggest either Queensbury rules or Smackdown.

How do I make sure my food does not contain GMO's?

Look very closely and pick them out.

Should we really be concerned about these things at all?

I'm not but you can if you want to.


China(I'm kinda new at this quote stuff)man
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JR
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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
How do you distinguish between cross-cultivated vegetables and gene-spliced vegetables? Neither exists in nature,

Biology wasn't your major, then. Both most certainly do exist in nature.
quote:
Again, this goes into the stomach, and is destroyed. Do we concern ourselves with DNA from nuts, eggs, seeds, or other germinal foods? Does the DNA express itself in our offspring? Of course not!
Not very likely, but your gut contains bacteria, too.
quote:
There are some dangers in genetic research; the idea of "planned obsolescence" in plants -- plants that die after a time in order to protect the "copyright" is silly. But, again, the worst that could happen is that the gene gets out into the general family of grasses and other plants...and, being self-destructive, would quickly die.
Think about what you just said. Every plant that has this gene will die. If this "gets out" it will take the offspring of normal plants that it pollinated with it. In a sensitive population, that could be very bad.

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Silas Sparkhammer
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quote:
Originally posted by JR:
quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
How do you distinguish between cross-cultivated vegetables and gene-spliced vegetables? Neither exists in nature,

Biology wasn't your major, then. Both most certainly do exist in nature.



Okay, have it your way. GM foods exist in nature.

So where's the beef?

quote:
There are some dangers in genetic research; the idea of "planned obsolescence" in plants -- plants that die after a time in order to protect the "copyright" is silly. But, again, the worst that could happen is that the gene gets out into the general family of grasses and other plants...and, being self-destructive, would quickly die.
Think about what you just said. Every plant that has this gene will die. If this "gets out" it will take the offspring of normal plants that it pollinated with it. In a sensitive population, that could be very bad. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I said it was silly. I agree. I think this is a bad use of GM science.

Sheesh.

Silas

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ULTRAGLORIA
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Silas, cultivars can, and do, exist in nature easily merely by having one variety of plant polinating close by another variety of plant in the same species.

Plant indian corn close to regular corn and you often can find a kernal or two of colored corn in an ear of yellow corn. That's cross-polination and it's been practiced by humans long before Mendel.

I can cross-pollinate tomatoes with a paint brush. If the resulting fruit can reproduce itself, viola! I have a new cultivar.

Splicing genes from one species to another is a whole 'nother ball of wax. And cannot occur in nature.

Take Pioneer for example. An attempt to increase protein in a soy bean results in soy beans that can cause reactions in people allergic to tree nuts. Very dangerous.

And not only was this particular strain of soy beans deadly to those with tree nut allergies, the pollin from those soy beans could have gone on to cross-polinate regular soy bean crops, resulting in tree-nut sensitive people dropping dead from eating potatoes sauted in soy bean oil from non-pioneer soybeans.

This problem was uncovered considerably later than the 'preliminary testing' stage.

It's very hard to control cross-pollination, as the Starlink Corn debacle showed.

More on Starlink Corn.

Corn pollinates by tassling. The tassles at the top of the corn plant fall down and catch in plant below. It was thought that corn couldn't cross-pollinate very far because the pollin was too heavy to travel far. Wrong.

Although farmers who grew the first crop of Starlink corn had to have 660 feet between Starlink crop fields and other crop fields, corn grown even miles away showed up as having been cross-polinated. Millions of dollars have been spent compensating growers who did not plant Starlink in their fields, yet still had Starlink show up in their food crop when harvested.

Starlink contains genes from a soil bacteria that could never have occured in nature.

--------------------
A Lie can run around the world before the Truth can get its boots on. - Terry Pratchett

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; but everyone is not entitled to their own facts. - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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JR
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quote:
Originally posted by ULTRAGOTHA:
Splicing genes from one species to another is a whole 'nother ball of wax. And cannot occur in nature.

Horizonatal gene transfer. Retroviral insertions. Both exist in nature.

ETA: ^ This is what happens when one of your hobbies is playing "whack-a-mole" with Creationists. You learn far more biology than you can possibly use. [Wink]

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ULTRAGLORIA
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With soil bacteria and corn?

Or soy beans and brazil nuts?

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A Lie can run around the world before the Truth can get its boots on. - Terry Pratchett

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; but everyone is not entitled to their own facts. - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Silas Sparkhammer
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quote:
Originally posted by ULTRAGOTHA:
Splicing genes from one species to another is a whole 'nother ball of wax. And cannot occur in nature.



That's what I thought, too...and I was quickly identified as a non-bio major... (Math, actually...)

I guess it doesn't really serve either of our arguments, eh?

I certainly agree that this, like all technology, can be dangerous and needs to be used carefully and with whatever meagre wisdom our race is capable of mustering... And, sure, I believe there will be accidents and incidents and nasty experiences that will cost lives.

At the same time, I just don't think it's as bad as some people believe.

I mean, we lost 50,000 people a year on U.S. highways. If that had been known in 1890, would Congress have put a ban on the development of the horseless buggy? (And...should they have? R.A. Lafferty wrote a very pretty story about America as it might have been without the automobile: "Interurban Queen." Maybe a combination of light and express rail would have been preferable...)

Anyway, I vote for GM food, and I'll put my opinion where my mouth is, by eating it... But I also agree that care must be taken.

Silas

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JR
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by ULTRAGOTHA:
With soil bacteria and corn?

Or soy beans and brazil nuts?

Ah, but that wasn't what was specified.. it was phrased in an all or nothing manner. The most common events involve bacteria.

Here's a list of trans-kingdom fusion events.

Notice how eager bacteria are to perform HGT. Notice that the modified genes are inserted into the GMOs via bacteria. With most GMO genes we are talking about bacterial genes transfering back into bacteria.

--------------------
Semper ubi sub ubi

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JR
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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
That's what I thought, too...and I was quickly identified as a non-bio major... (Math, actually...)

Great.. could you check over some math for me. I have two webistes bookmarked discussing trig, and I bullshitted my way through trig (and transformations, come to think of it... [Big Grin] )

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ULTRAGLORIA
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I don't necessarily think GM food is totally bad; but it does cause concern. I, as a consumer, don't want to support GM companies. Thus I want food labled so I can avoid it.

Because companies are looking at the bottom line, not so much at how safe and effective their GM crops are. What of some of these crops that are specifically engineered so that their seeds are sterile end up cross polinating ot other similar crops so that their seeds are sterile, too? Which could happen, as the Starlink corn showed.

--------------------
A Lie can run around the world before the Truth can get its boots on. - Terry Pratchett

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; but everyone is not entitled to their own facts. - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Silas Sparkhammer
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quote:
Originally posted by JR:
quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
That's what I thought, too...and I was quickly identified as a non-bio major... (Math, actually...)

Great.. could you check over some math for me. I have two webistes bookmarked discussing trig, and I bullshitted my way through trig (and transformations, come to think of it... [Big Grin] )
If you're serious, sure! That's one of the nice things about math: when you prove something, you *prove* something! As the sciences grow "mushier," opinions come more and more into play... Math, engineering, physics, chemistry, astronomy, biology, ecology, economy, poli. sci., philosophy, theology...

(Fritz Leiber wrote of a friend who switched majors in exactly that pattern!)

"Yet what are all such gaieties to me, Whose thoughts are full of indices and surds?
x-squared + 7x + 53 = 11/3" Lewis Carroll

Silas

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Rhiandmoi
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JR you don't think some resistant bacteria developed on their own?
I am not disagreeing with you, I am just saying that Monsanto is not the Devil.

--------------------
I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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JR
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhode Island Rhiandmoi:
JR you don't think some resistant bacteria developed on their own?

Where do you think Monsanto got it? Sure, it developes in nature... so does Botulism. That doesn't mean that we should stop inspecting the canning factories.

quote:
I am just saying that Monsanto is not the Devil
No, there's also Aventis... [Wink]

However, there is the philisophical argument to be made that corporations cannot be evil (or good), simply because they are not moral agents.

How about blinded by greed to an amazing degree?

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Semper ubi sub ubi

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JR
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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
If you're serious, sure!

YGM! (only one, the other has been tackled by someone else, fortunately)

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James G.
Xboxing Day


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The best approach for GM crops if judging very much on a case by case basis. Like any technology GM has the potential to be benificial, whereas at the same time cause problems if mis-applied (Either intentionaly or by accident)

However even in this case the situation can not be clear cut, as often even a single crop may pose advantages and disadvantages. For example, the high protein soya you mentioned had potential to, if applied correctly, help reduced serious protein deficit in some third world countries. (Saving more lives than those it put at risk.) Of course whether you can get the agrotech companies to support such distributions will always be another question.

GM technology has potential, but you have to ask yourself what you want from it. Increased yeilds are unlikely to be usefull in the richer world where we already have vast surplus, and nor are many of those varieties going to achive the incresed yeild in poorer countries. Projects like 'golden rice' however, specifically designed and marketed to help reduce vitamin A deficiency in third world countries can show benifits, (Yes I'm aware that the vitamin levels provided did not meet the expected level, it still doesn't negate it's possible benifits though) and similar promises are held by dwarf rice, (Under developments) and even, to a lesser degree Bt. cotton. (Although Bt. cotton is not a foodstuff, it can still help to provide an income to third world farmers, such as it is. It costs less to maintain a field of Bt. cotton, requires fewer insecticides, and had shown a reduction in poisoning cases in India) Still, even with these technologies there will be problems of disribution and application, but that is a problem of the marketing, not the technology.

It's also not true that the GM debate is as polarised as you make out. Many accademics are in deep debate on the technology, and are largely, though still not quite completely, independent of comercial ties. The general concensus is similar to the case I have presented above. The establishment of criteria on what should be expected of GM technologies then judgement on a case by case basis by a number of advisory boards. Suggestions have also been made for more general improvement in the technology, helping to reduce problems of gene transfer in pollen, and reducing the use of antibiotic resistance markers. I have known a number of my lecturers to speek out against specific implementations of the technology, while at the same time holding hope for other future developments. Of course, all this argument tends to get lost among the shouting and arguing from the two extreams.

ETA: Can I just add that the current implementation of Pharm technology is insane. Use of food crops, and the placing of the genes within nuclear DNA is asking for trouble when you are producing products not intended for direct consumption. The technology is there to avoid doing this and should be used.

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Posts: 1302 | From: Edinburgh, UK (Currently Nr. Swindon, UK) | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
JR
We Three Blings


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Golden rice is the poster child for the GM industry, and for good reason. Even though it has less than the "recommended daily allowance" of vitamin A, you have to remember that that's a recommended amount, ot an absolute minimum. Much lower amounts will still prevent vitamin A deficiency diseases, like blindness.

So long as it is understood that the industry is completely incapable of being self-policing, and that the industry will have to pay for the independent study required to get it's products released. I have a real problem with corporate welfare...

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Semper ubi sub ubi

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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GM foods... isn't that how we got most of the food we eat today? Generations of slow genetic manipulation, to produce such things as corn, dairy and beef cattle, et cetera ad infinitum?

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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JR
We Three Blings


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Not exactly, First... you're playing semantics. There's a difference between "artificial" selection and HGT, and you know it.

Secondly, that's a strawman if you are trying to argue against my position, because I never made any moral point over it being "unnatural".

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by JR:
Secondly, that's a strawman if you are trying to argue against my position, because I never made any moral point over it being "unnatural".

You didn't, but many people do. The whole sobriquet "Frankenfoods" is based around the argument that we're tampering with nature. It's a subtext that's been around for an awful long time...

("Mama, keep those atoms whole...")

Silas

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cstam1979
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Sounds like a few of you are subscribing to the Greenpeace theory about Genetically Engineered food. These types of food can be modified to resist cold or to survive in barren desert climates. Genetically modified foods are regulated by the FDA and so are those foods not modified they have to meet the same requirements or they may not be sold in stores. BTW Greenpeace is full of it I wouldn't believe them about this as they are completely misinformed themselves.
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JR
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by cstam1979:
Sounds like a few of you are subscribing to the Greenpeace theory about Genetically Engineered food. These types of food can be modified to resist cold or to survive in barren desert climates. Genetically modified foods are regulated by the FDA and so are those foods not modified they have to meet the same requirements or they may not be sold in stores. BTW Greenpeace is full of it I wouldn't believe them about this as they are completely misinformed themselves.

The FDA approves thes foods on the basis of tests performed by theindustry itself, not independant testing. Do you see a potential problem here?

Most of the posters here have not subscribed to the "Greenpeace" model, so you are setting up a strawman.

I am very tired of this strawman.. "If you are against GMOs you are ignorant". Prove me ignorant, go back to page one and my post on HGT and tell me why I'm wrong about the lowering of the homology barrier.

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by JR:
The FDA approves thes foods on the basis of tests performed by theindustry itself, not independant testing. Do you see a potential problem here?

Drugs and medicines are also approved the same way. We (the people) don't give the FDA enough money to do its own testing.

Automobile companies do most of the auto safety testing, too.

More government, anyone? (Personally, I say yes, but my views are in the minority usually...)

Silas

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Skippy VonWafflepants
The Red and the Green Stamps


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My family has practiced cross-pollintion for generations and no plants were involved. We are just a very geneticaly diverse family. You ever mated with a Yeti? Any complaints?
Everybody report: whom has your family mated with. Baaaaaaah. Skippy

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