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Author Topic: 19 genders
Dropbear
Angels from the Realms so Glurgy


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quote:
Originally posted by PeterK
Cripes, how many times and in how many different ways do I have to point out the obvious fact that sex has no cultural component? If you think it does, give me an example of a culture which would classify me as a woman. If you can't, then can the pretentious doublespeak.

Well, Australian society actually. If you dress as a woman - making an effort with your appearance to be percieved as a woman. You will for all practical purposes be regarded as a woman and be classified as a woman. Nobody will have the right to ask you to prove your womanhood, excepting in certain limited situations. You note this yourself with the material you provided on harassment and discrimination above.

You may not like it, you may think it offensive against your personal and individual belief of what a woman is, but it will still be the case and until God her/himself comes down from on high to say that you were right all along we'll just all have to live with it.

Dropbear

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" The villagers had said justice had been done, and she'd lost patience and told them to go home, then, and pray to whatever gods they believed in that it was never done to them. -- (Terry Pratchett)

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aranea russus
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
Cripes, how many times and in how many different ways do I have to point out the obvious fact that sex has no cultural component? If you think it does, give me an example of a culture which would classify me as a woman. If you can't, then can the pretentious doublespeak.

As DropBear has clearly pointed out your own culture in Australia would recognise you as a woman if you took the steps to make it appear so.

Cobalt / 'me, no really' the brain debate is very interesting but ultimately accademic, and Cobalt you seem to be coming in from the wrong angle.

A feminine brain would count for very little in the analysis of whether a person should be transgender or not. The person has a choice about how they want to live their life, and if they can prove that it is not a snap decision, they are capable and willing to live it out all the time, etc. there is very little to stop them. There will be no "I'm sorry but your brain is male" report.

However, academically, it may have arisen that in a survey of transgender people, a significant proportion of people had the brain type of the gender they had chosen. Again though, this is just academic.

Similarly, noone is going to give you a brain scan and declare "You've got a wrong-brain, it's gender reassignment for you sonny". The final analysis rests on the persons capacity to live in their chosen gender.

To the issue in your workplace PeterK, you will notice the definition of "recognised transgender". This basically means you have a certificate of some sort recognising your new gender. This is not easy to aquire, requiring, as I made clear before, years of doctor visits, psychological analysis, possible surgery, etc.

You will then notice the definition at the bottom ofthe page, saying that "recognised transgender" people may request to use facilities of their chosen gender. Therefore, as I stated before, you cannot decide to be a woman in the morning, a man in the afternoon, and sue the pants off anyone who complains when you use the toilets.

The decision to change gender would be a long and difficult one to make. The rules your management has put in place recognises this in accordance with australian law.

Take a look at this link which outlines the requirements to obtain a recognition certificate in Western Australia.

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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quote:
As DropBear has clearly pointed out your own culture in Australia would recognise you as a woman if you took the steps to make it appear so.

No actually it was I who pointed that out. But legal recognition because of a mistake caused by my deception would not change the fact that I am a man.
quote:
To the issue in your workplace PeterK, you will notice the definition of "recognised transgender". This basically means you have a certificate of some sort recognising your new gender. This is not easy to aquire, requiring, as I made clear before, years of doctor visits, psychological analysis, possible surgery, etc.

You will then notice the definition at the bottom ofthe page, saying that "recognised transgender" people may request to use facilities of their chosen gender. Therefore, as I stated before, you cannot decide to be a woman in the morning, a man in the afternoon, and sue the pants off anyone who complains when you use the toilets.

The decision to change gender would be a long and difficult one to make. The rules your management has put in place recognises this in accordance with australian law.

Take a look at this link which outlines the requirements to obtain a recognition certificate in Western Australia.

You apparently will be amazed to learn that I do actually read quotes before inserting them. Yes and after the definition of "recognised transgender", which it notes is only one of the two groups of “transgender” people, it adds "Although a person can only legally be considered the opposite gender to their birth gender when they are a ‘recognised transgender person’, it is appropriate, in most cases, to extend the same rights and conditions to both groups of transgender people in the workplace.“
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Diabolos
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
I can at any time send an email to the rest of the staff saying that I am now a woman and they must address me as "Ms K", let me use the women's toilets, take part in the "women's group" activities, and if anyone expresses surprise or makes any jokes about it I can sue the pants off them (pun intended). And I can then send around another email saying that I am now a man again, and repeat the process as often as I like.

Do you really think that going through the gender reassignment process is that easy? Educate yourself dear man.


quote:
Everyone is either a man or a woman.
Most of the time, yes, but not always. And you did partially contradict yourself here:

"Yes there have been a tiny muber of tragic cases (mainly involving Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) where doctors have made a hasty wrong decision at birth and we need to be sensitive to those very few people who have grown up wrongly labelled."

quote:
But as a man I find it offensive to be told that a woman who undergoes plastic surgery and gets lifelong weekly hormone injections "has become a man",
Well, get used to the idea because they are now men whether you are comfortable with the idea or not.


quote:
and I'm sure women feel the same way about men who claim to have "become women".
Really? You've polled all of us? Speak for yourself and not others.


quote:
If you "feel like a woman trapped in a man's body" go see a psychiatrist to help you get a grip on reality.
I guess that you don't realize that gender reassignment is a long and strenuous process and part of it is that you *must* go speak with a psychiatrist about your plans and feelings of having the wrong body.
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aranea russus
The First USA Noel


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You said...
quote:
Give me an example of a culture which would classify me as a woman
Our survey said...
quote:
Your own culture in Australia would recognise you as a woman
You said...
quote:
No actually it was I who pointed that out.
Riiiight. [Roll Eyes]


Anyway, using toilet facilities would probably come under one of the exceptional circumstances that would need to be reviewed by management, as mentioned here.

quote:
A transgender person who is not a recognised transgender person’ can insist on using the toilets and change rooms and wearing the uniform of their preferred gender unless it is unreasonable in all circumstances to do so.
If you object, this would be the point where you pipe up.

And as the document itself says, there is no legal recognition of pre-op transgender people being in their chosen gender. The company is just trying to be nice to the very few people who chose to take this path.

So again, I'll say it. This does not mean you can come into work, be a woman in the morning and a man in the afternoon, and sue anyone who says otherwise.

Don't believe me? Try it. Put a dress on tomorrow, take the 8:34 to work and proudly announce to all your coworkers you are unveiling australia's sham laws.

I'll keep an eye out for you in the 'News In Brief' section.

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
There is no legal requirement for the “transgender” person to even tell others in the workplace of the “sex change”, which need not involve any surgery or drugs. The “transgender” person may look and dress exactly the same as before the “sex change”, but managers and co-workers are required to treat him/her exactly as if he/she was natural-born member of the “new” sex.

And? I don't understand your problem with this. Is it that people who were previously women get to go into men's toilets and possibly ogle you? (You know, there are also men born as males who find other men attractive, so changing the law wouldn't limit the amount of ogling you're exposed to). Or is there another practical problem involved here? Because to me, it reads as if you want to be able to treat transgendered people differently because you are somehow personally offended by them. Please correct me if this is not the case.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Cobalt Kitty
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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It seems I am approaching this discussion from the wrong angle. I jumped in thinking this would be, as one poster called it, an "academic" discussion about the cause and "treatment" of gender dysphoria.

But it seems the discussion is about how to deal practically with such people in everyday life, which, honestly, doesn't interest me.

I don't really care who is using the stall/urinal next to me in a washroom as long they don't touch me or try to strike up a conversation.

Since I don't really think I have anything useful I want to contribute here, I'm withdrawing from this topic, at least for now.

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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Yes Diabolos I am well aware that to convincingly pretend to be a member of the opposite sex the surgical operations which MAY be involved are very difficult and extensive, and that lifelong regular massive drug overdoses are required. As I have mentioned before here. No I have not conducted a poll (nor AFAIK has anyone, oddly enough) - nor would I, as actually this subject does not fascinate me as much as some. But every time it has come up in conversation, the vast majority of both men and women have said that they would not regard a person who had "changed" to their sex, as a member of their own sex, and are offended by the idea that they share the same sex.

quote:
"Well, get used to the idea because they are now men whether you are comfortable with the idea or not."
And who gave you the right to be the arbiter of such things? Sorry, your saying "they are now men" does not make them men.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everyone is either a man or a woman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
Most of the time, yes, but not always. And you did partially contradict yourself here:

"Yes there have been a tiny muber of tragic cases (mainly involving Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) where doctors have made a hasty wrong decision at birth and we need to be sensitive to those very few people who have grown up wrongly labelled."

And how is this "partially contradicting"?? I said there are a tiny number of males who have been WRONGLY LABELLED as females (and vice versa). It does not change the fact that they ARE, always have been, and always will be, males (and vice versa). Everyone IS either male or female. Surgically lopping off bits, or changing the shape of bits of flesh and injecting continuous massive overdoses of drugs does not change someone's sex. Nor does adopting the dress and/or behaviour stereotypical of the other sex.

No I don't care who "ogles" me, I'm sure everyone's got better things to do than ogling me, so please stop trivializing the issue, which is the absurdity of the attempt to redefine the meaning of "man" and "woman".

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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How many times has it come up in conversation, PeterK?

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Cervus
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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PeterK, you haven't yet answered why this is a personal problem for you.

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"There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen
Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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Aimee Evilpixie
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Heck for the record, I am a female and I have one FTM artist friend (and he is the most adorable little boy you've ever met!) and one MTF friend. (I don't feel like saying her name, but most of the people here knew her, too. I think you guys might like to know that she's now in the correct physical body, to her relief.)

I am not offended by people who change gender. In fact, I am PROUD of them for having the strength to go through such a difficult process and face so much discrimination. Similarly, I am proud of every gay man and lesbian woman who is living out of the closet, because it is a difficult path to follow but it leads to much healthier people.

Aimee "And I like crossdressers, too!" Evilpixie

--------------------
Ugg want you find JESUS!

My website!

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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Cervus, who said it was a personal problem for me? It isn't. But I and many other people find it a societal problem that "gender" is enforced as "any gender a person chooses to be". AglRdr, I haven't counted how many times it has comne up in conversation over the last couple of decades, but it's quite a few. Yes I know that's not a statistically valid survey, but as we only have anecdotal evidence that's what I'm reporting.
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aranea russus
The First USA Noel


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FFS, why not just drop it PeterK? Either that or start a new thread.
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wee wifey
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Aimee Evilpixie:
(I don't feel like saying her name, but most of the people here knew her, too. I think you guys might like to know that she's now in the correct physical body, to her relief.)


that is fan-fecking-tastic news- if you're referring to who I think you are,I miss her!

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once known as little miss

"I don't Pretend to be an ordinary Housewife" Elizabeth Taylor

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Diabolos
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Aimee Evilpixie:
(I don't feel like saying her name, but most of the people here knew her, too. I think you guys might like to know that she's now in the correct physical body, to her relief.)


As a mega long time lurker (so I am pretty sure that I know of who you are speaking about) I can honestly say that that is going to be the best news that I have heard all day. [Smile]
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Hell's Granny
Xboxing Day


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quote:
Originally posted by Diabolos:
quote:
Originally posted by Aimee Evilpixie:
(I don't feel like saying her name, but most of the people here knew her, too. I think you guys might like to know that she's now in the correct physical body, to her relief.)


As a mega long time lurker (so I am pretty sure that I know of who you are speaking about) I can honestly say that that is going to be the best news that I have heard all day. [Smile]
Me too! Can somebody pass on our congratulations? [Smile]

As for PeterK's assertion that the majority of "real" men/women he's talked to about it object to TGs, has he ever asked them if they've ever knowingly encountered a TG?
Not too many TGs go around wearing signs announcing to the world that they used to have a body of the opposite gender. I'm willing to bet that lots of people have met TGs, worked alongside a TG, even used toilets alongside of one, without realising.

Even you, PeterK!

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Oakleaf Circle - Elfin Magical Diary-Transit: the astrologers' newsletter

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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Aranea, I WOULD like to drop it. I have probably said all I have to say on the subject. But some people (who have apparently not bothered reading my earlier posts) keep telling me I "have a personal problem" or that I must have never encountered the issue IRL, or they for some reason feel the need to tell me I "have used toilets alongside of one". So unless someone posts something which is a new thought on the subject, instead of just a repeat of the same trivilizations and personal innuendos, I will not reply further.
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Cobalt Kitty
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Aimee Evilpixie:
I think you guys might like to know that she's now in the correct physical body, to her relief

Popping back in to ask a question: I'd hazard a guess that she still has XY genes. How then can the body be "correct"?

Or, perhaps a better question: At what point is a transsexual "satisfied" with their modified body?

I can only speak for myself, but knowing what I know about DNA, if I truly was dissatisfied with my physical sex, I can't see how anything short of genetic alteration would satisfy me. And since that's impossible, I wouldn't bother at all.

But then, I'm a perfectionist who tends to think in all-or-nothing terms.

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Aimee Evilpixie
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Cobalt Kitty:
quote:
Originally posted by Aimee Evilpixie:
I think you guys might like to know that she's now in the correct physical body, to her relief

Popping back in to ask a question: I'd hazard a guess that she still has XY genes. How then can the body be "correct"?

Or, perhaps a better question: At what point is a transsexual "satisfied" with their modified body?


She is no longer repulsed by having the wrong gentials. She no longer feels constantly out of place no metter where she is. She no longer has a constant reminder that she didn't get to have a happy, normal childhood as a little girl.

She is satisfied because her physical body matches her mental state. You haven't gone through it or seen someone go through it. You haven't seen the pain and trouble it causes, and the rewards to their mental well-being once it's done.

She is a satisfied, functioning woman and you would NOT know she was transsexual to look at her. She is lovely, and part of that is because she is now okay with herself.

You say you can only think in all or nothing terms. That probably has some effect on why you can't seem to grasp what it's like for a transsexual person. I know that if tomorrow I woke up in a man's body, I would feel horribly out of place and want to do my best to get back into a female body, even if that meant having to go through gender re-assignment surgery.

Aimee "Of course, there'd be the question of WHY I was in a man's body..." Evilpixie

--------------------
Ugg want you find JESUS!

My website!

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Granny:
quote:
Originally posted by Diabolos:
quote:
Originally posted by Aimee Evilpixie:
(I don't feel like saying her name, but most of the people here knew her, too. I think you guys might like to know that she's now in the correct physical body, to her relief.)


As a mega long time lurker (so I am pretty sure that I know of who you are speaking about) I can honestly say that that is going to be the best news that I have heard all day. [Smile]
Me too! Can somebody pass on our congratulations? [Smile]


Mine, too...had a taco salad at Taco Bell the other day, and there was the inevitable reminder of her.

I am so happy she is well.

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Casey, making hot chocolate
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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Well, I'll be damned... there's a name I haven't hear referenced in quite a while. Congrats from my end, as well. [Smile]

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"To be or not to be! That is the question! Now, will you answer, dare, double dare, or take the Physical Challenge?" --Mark Summers as Hamlet
Countdown: 177 days and counting... or less. My blog. 14 keyboards owed.

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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I'd like to pass on my sincere and heartfelt congratulations to what's-her-name on attaining a body she can be herself in.

Nonny

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When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

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Tootsie Plunkette
Buy a Torch, Jeanette, Isabella


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Can I pitch in with a hearty, "me too!"

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--Tootsie

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Jenn
Layaway in a Manger


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Kate is aware of the congratulatory posts here and sends her thanks. However, she does respectfully request that this not turn into another "I miss Kate!" thread.

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"You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!"

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the Virgin Marrya
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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[one more and then I promise I'll stop!] I know, I know, it's just this sort of pouncingtacklehug [that we always do] that probably keeps her from posting - we're trainwrecks in that regard - one word and we're all squee-ey and hijacked and ...yeah, I'd probably avoid that, too.

Sigh. So I won't SAY I miss her...

aye, someone should lock this thread - we're not exactly known for our self-control around here. And even if we refrain, we'll feel obilgated to point out that we're refraining, and that we wouldn't be if we didn't need to be and... htere I go, doing it again and more.

Marry "my math is not the same" ya

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Windows cannot open this file. To open this file correctly, defenestrate, then try running the file again...

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