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Author Topic: Pope's Last Words...
The Eyeball Kid
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I've heard a menagerie of theatrical quotes attributed to the Pope in his last moments...

I'm guessing, giving the tracheotomy and all, he had very little to say. And, his doctor seems to convey the same story -

Amen?

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Orshee
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I posted about this in the Soapbox Derby thread on the Pope, but this really is a better spot - I'll copy what I posted there...

quote:
Originally posted by Orshee:
I read an article last night that quoted the Pope's doctor as saying, "The Holy Father could not utter a single word before passing away. Just as happened in the last days, he could not speak; he was forced to silence."

I would have expected that, given that when we saw him a week ago, he was unable to speak to the people gathered at St. Peter's Square.

But in the days before his death, and immediately after, it was reported that he did speak, once to say "I looked for you, and now you have come to me" (cite) and once to say "Amen" just before he died.

The article from This is London makes it sound a little scandalous, but I'm just curious about why people from the Vatican would report that the Pope had spoken when it seemed, based on what I read and saw, that his tracheotomy had made that impossible. Maybe the simplest explanation is that he was able to mouth the words.


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DemonWolf
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Could it be that he knew that he was dying and had the word's prepared in advance? Or perhaps knew that he would never speak again due to the tracheotomy and decided that he would speak his last words then, and have them reported later?

My thought is simply that the press is hearing (and reporting) rumors without confirming anything.

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Slainey
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I've known people with a trach. They could speak by blocking the tube and forcing air past the vocal cords. Certainly not loudly or with any speed but they could get words out.

Still I think these reports of last words are wishful thinking.

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Jason Threadslayer
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quote:
Originally posted by Slainey:
Still I think these reports of last words are wishful thinking.

Or non-literal, as in "Amen", it is done.

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mgbdriver
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"Rosebud"

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Christie
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My thoughts were similar to Orshee's. If he was conscious near the end there is no reason to believe he would not have mouthed the word "amen" in response to prayers that were being said for him. If true I would think that would count as his last word. But, I wasn't there, so I'm just sayin'...

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lynnejanet
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Earlier on the day that he died, CBC was reporting that he had requested the Cardinals and Bishops who were with him to pray the Stations of the Cross, and that he had responded to each station by saying 'Amen." If he was able to speak several hours before his death, it is feasible that he spoke some last words.

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TB Tabby
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Either way, this will be incorporated into glurge sometime in the future.

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Dogwater
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quote:
"I looked for you, and now you have come to me"
It was reported that these words were said refering to the people gathered outside his window. My first thought, however, was that he was refering to G-d.

I also hold that he may have mouthed something and it was inerpretted as the bystanders wish. I think it's OK not to be sure...maybe it was just wishful thinking, but what does it hurt?

Unless the words were something like "Oy, I was wrong the whole time. You should all convert to Judaism"...then I could see that they just made something up. [fish]

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foxyleah3
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just curious, why did you type "G-d" for "God"? i've never really understood why people do that.

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DaBrudders
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quote:
Originally posted by foxyleah3:
just curious, why did you type "G-d" for "God"? i've never really understood why people do that.

Presumably because any usage of the actual three letter word itself may be seen as blasphemy?
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the Virgin Marrya
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I've read elsewhere [particularly on orthodox Jewish sites] that the use of G-d is to prevent the name of God being potentially desecrated - i.e., if someone were to print out a page with the name of God on it, then use the back of that page for scratch paper, and, I dunno, doodle something offensive on it, that would dishonour the Name, kind of thing. [sorry, paraphrasing badly from memory]

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Dogwater
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quote:
Originally posted by foxyleah3:
just curious, why did you type "G-d" for "God"? i've never really understood why people do that.

It's a habit I picked up in Sunday school (and believe me, that may very well be all that I remember). I recall the reaasoning being a combo of pretty much what Marrya and DaBrudders said. One does not want to throw out His name, nor is it for us mere mortals to be able to write.

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The Eyeball Kid
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quote:
Originally posted by DaBrudders:
quote:
Originally posted by foxyleah3:
just curious, why did you type "G-d" for "God"? i've never really understood why people do that.

Presumably because any usage of the actual three letter word itself may be seen as blasphemy?
That's it!!! STONE HIM!!!!!!!!!!!

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pinqy
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quote:
Originally posted by Marrya doesn't count:
I've read elsewhere [particularly on orthodox Jewish sites] that the use of G-d is to prevent the name of God being potentially desecrated - i.e., if someone were to print out a page with the name of God on it, then use the back of that page for scratch paper, and, I dunno, doodle something offensive on it, that would dishonour the Name, kind of thing. [sorry, paraphrasing badly from memory]

I've never understood that though (because it doesn't make any sense). "God" itself is used to avoid saying or writing The Name. So to use G-d is to avoid using the euphemism. Which is ridiculous.

pinqy

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Dogwater
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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Originally posted by Marrya doesn't count:
I've read elsewhere [particularly on orthodox Jewish sites] that the use of G-d is to prevent the name of God being potentially desecrated - i.e., if someone were to print out a page with the name of God on it, then use the back of that page for scratch paper, and, I dunno, doodle something offensive on it, that would dishonour the Name, kind of thing. [sorry, paraphrasing badly from memory]

I've never understood that though (because it doesn't make any sense). "God" itself is used to avoid saying or writing The Name. So to use G-d is to avoid using the euphemism. Which is ridiculous.

pinqy

It's not ridiculous, it's just 'a thing'. I'm not going to research it, as I don't care enough, but I would suspect that writing G-d is just a form of reverence that was twisted out of ancient tradition or law, re-interpreted in the Western world.

It's not like it takes extra keystrokes, so what the hell?

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Jason Threadslayer
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DogWater, do you leave the vowel points out of Elohim also?

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The Eyeball Kid
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Uhm. Nahhh...I gotta agree with pinqy on this. It's completely ridiculous to use another name for something so that you don't actually *name* the other one with it's proper name, then abreviate the second name for the same reason you didn't name the first one.

So, basically, you could just write "J-hovah" and leave it at that.

EK

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Kathy B
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From Jewish Virtual Library
quote:
Writing the Name of God

Jews do not casually write any Name of God. This practice does not come from the commandment not to take the Lord's Name in vain, as many suppose. In Jewish thought, that commandment refers solely to oath-taking, and is a prohibition against swearing by God's Name falsely or frivolously (the word normally translated as "in vain" literally means "for falsehood").


Judaism does not prohibit writing the Name of God per se; it prohibits only erasing or defacing a Name of God. However, observant Jews avoid writing any Name of God casually because of the risk that the written Name might later be defaced, obliterated or destroyed accidentally or by one who does not know better.

The commandment not to erase or deface the name of God comes from Deut. 12:3. In that passage, the people are commanded that when they take over the promised land, they should destroy all things related to the idolatrous religions of that region, and should utterly destroy the names of the local deities. Immediately afterwards, we are commanded not to do the same to our God. From this, the rabbis inferred that we are commanded not to destroy any holy thing, and not to erase or deface a Name of God.


It is worth noting that this prohibition against erasing or defacing Names of God applies only to Names that are written in some kind of permanent form, and recent rabbinical decisions have held that writing on a computer is not a permanent form, thus it is not a violation to type God's Name into a computer and then backspace over it or cut and paste it, or copy and delete files with God's Name in them. However, once you print the document out, it becomes a permanent form. That is why observant Jews avoid writing a Name of God on web sites like this one or in BBS messages: because there is a risk that someone else will print it out and deface it.

Normally, we avoid writing the Name by substituting letters or syllables, for example, writing "G-d" instead of "God." In addition, the number 15, which would ordinarily be written in Hebrew as Yod-Heh (10-5), is normally written as Tet-Vav (9-6), because Yod-Heh is a Name.



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Dogwater
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason thread DIV 0:
DogWater, do you leave the vowel points out of Elohim also?

I've never written that, but thanks for getting me all paranoid now [Big Grin]

from The Eyeball Kid
quote:
Uhm. Nahhh...I gotta agree with pinqy on this. It's completely ridiculous to use another name for something so that you don't actually *name* the other one with it's proper name, then abreviate the second name for the same reason you didn't name the first one.

So, basically, you could just write "J-hovah" and leave it at that.

EK

I can't see why it's "ridiculous". What the fuck does it hurt? If you're saying that Rabbinical teachings are ridiculous for providing these ideas, then you'll have to take it up with them. I'm sure, as in a lot of religious practices, there is a convoluted logic to why things are done the way they are. Further, often there are ancient reasonings that may not apply to modern life but are re-interpretted so that they apply.

But, condemning something as 'ridiculous' is more than a little dismissive and, on a level, hateful, when it comes to an inoccuous practice someone does in reverence to their Higher Power. I didn't say anyone else has to do the same, and I'm not gassing a mall in some convoluted sense of duty to my god.

Who is anyone to pass judgement on this? And why do you need to?

Shit, I'm just spelling the Name (N-me; Nam-, NM (Bar Mitzvah joke)?) different. I didn't kick your dog.

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CannonFodder Global Trotter
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I heard the Holy Father's final words were:

"At last, no more hats!"

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by The Eyeball Kid:
Uhm. Nahhh...I gotta agree with pinqy on this. It's completely ridiculous to use another name for something so that you don't actually *name* the other one with it's proper name, then abreviate the second name for the same reason you didn't name the first one.

It's called a fence law -- a law put around another more serious law to prevent violation of the more serious law. For instance, driving with a BAC of 0.08% is illegal (and dangerous), so many people do not drive after one drink, even if their BAC is half that. Jesus's prohibition on lust is a similar idea.

(Dogwater, I was referring to Hebrew and I was only trying to get more specifics.)

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pinqy
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quote:
I can't see why it's "ridiculous". What the fuck does it hurt?
That's a non sequitur. It doesn't hurt anything. It's ridiculous because it doesn't make any logical sense, even given its stated purpose. The prohibition is against writing God's name. Since God's name is not "God" then it makes no sense to use the practice when it doesn't apply.

quote:
If you're saying that Rabbinical teachings are ridiculous for providing these ideas, then you'll have to take it up with them.
The idea is perfectly fine and rational (within the context). The use of the practice when it doesn't apply is what I was referring to.

quote:
But, condemning something as 'ridiculous' is more than a little dismissive and, on a level, hateful, when it comes to an inoccuous practice someone does in reverence to their Higher Power.
No, it's not dismissive. I'm very well aware of the reason and prohibition against spelling or writing the Name of God. I don't dismiss it at all. But when it's used for things that aren't the Name of God, then it stops making sense. Referring to the Hebrew god as "God" or "The Lord" was the way to avoid writing the Name. Neither one is a Name, they are the substitutes. So whether you write God or G-d, either way you're not writing the Name, so why not actually spell the full word?

I'm not ridiculing it from an outside perspective, I'm ridiculing it from an inside perspective.

pinqy

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Dogwater
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason thread DIV 0:
(SNIP)
(Dogwater, I was referring to Hebrew and I was only trying to get more specifics.)

Oh, I took no offense to your question. the answer really is "Uh, I don't know...". I probably did know at one time, but the recent topic in Techno-Babble on torque probably knocked it out of my head [lol]

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Dogwater
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Originally posted by pinqy
quote:
I can't see why it's "ridiculous". What the fuck does it hurt?
That's a non sequitur. It doesn't hurt anything. It's ridiculous because it doesn't make any logical sense, even given its stated purpose. The prohibition is against writing God's name. Since God's name is not "God" then it makes no sense to use the practice when it doesn't apply.

Calling something Ridiculous, to me, means that someone feels the object of ridicule does hurt, if nothing more than the condemmer's idea of common sense. In any case, it is an inflamatory word...especially how it came across as a post

quote:
If you're saying that Rabbinical teachings are ridiculous for providing these ideas, then you'll have to take it up with them.
The idea is perfectly fine and rational (within the context). The use of the practice when it doesn't apply is what I was referring to.

Sure. Your right. But, someone thinks it does apply. Kathy B quoted a good explaination, and Jason thread DIV 0 had a good follow-up


quote:
But, condemning something as 'ridiculous' is more than a little dismissive and, on a level, hateful, when it comes to an inoccuous practice someone does in reverence to their Higher Power.
No, it's not dismissive. I'm very well aware of the reason and prohibition against spelling or writing the Name of God. I don't dismiss it at all. But when it's used for things that aren't the Name of God, then it stops making sense. Referring to the Hebrew god as "God" or "The Lord" was the way to avoid writing the Name. Neither one is a Name, they are the substitutes. So whether you write God or G-d, either way you're not writing the Name, so why not actually spell the full word?

Sorry, but I can't think of a situation in which someone calls something RIDICULOUS in any other way than as a dissmisive gesture. In fact, from Dictionary.Com "Deserving or inspiring ridicule; absurd, preposterous, or silly." Can see why I connotated the term as I did?

I'm not ridiculing it from an outside perspective, I'm ridiculing it from an inside perspective.

Very well. From that perspective it doesn't seem as inflamatory. And hey, don't ask me why that is.


Dog--I think he converted for the jokes--water

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pinqy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason thread DIV 0:
quote:
Originally posted by The Eyeball Kid:
Uhm. Nahhh...I gotta agree with pinqy on this. It's completely ridiculous to use another name for something so that you don't actually *name* the other one with it's proper name, then abreviate the second name for the same reason you didn't name the first one.

It's called a fence law -- a law put around another more serious law to prevent violation of the more serious law. For instance, driving with a BAC of 0.08% is illegal (and dangerous), so many people do not drive after one drink, even if their BAC is half that. Jesus's prohibition on lust is a similar idea.
I see it more this way: You cannot say the word "shit" on television. The networks can bleep the word out, of course. Instead of worrying about that, most shows will substitute a non-harmful word such as "shoot" or "darn." Writing "G-d" is exactly the same as bleeping out "shoot." It makes no sense.

Or to follow the alcohol analogy, it's like faced with the rule of drinking less than one beer per hour in order to avoid getting drunk, someone drinks non-alcoholic beer (or even soda) and then still limits himself to one per hour.

pinqy

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Dogwater
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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jason thread DIV 0:
quote:
Originally posted by The Eyeball Kid:
Uhm. Nahhh...I gotta agree with pinqy on this. It's completely ridiculous to use another name for something so that you don't actually *name* the other one with it's proper name, then abreviate the second name for the same reason you didn't name the first one.

It's called a fence law -- a law put around another more serious law to prevent violation of the more serious law. For instance, driving with a BAC of 0.08% is illegal (and dangerous), so many people do not drive after one drink, even if their BAC is half that. Jesus's prohibition on lust is a similar idea.
I see it more this way: You cannot say the word "shit" on television. The networks can bleep the word out, of course. Instead of worrying about that, most shows will substitute a non-harmful word such as "shoot" or "darn." Writing "G-d" is exactly the same as bleeping out "shoot." It makes no sense.

Or to follow the alcohol analogy, it's like faced with the rule of drinking less than one beer per hour in order to avoid getting drunk, someone drinks non-alcoholic beer (or even soda) and then still limits himself to one per hour.

pinqy

I really think this board is great...we can go from The Popes Last Words to this! And no one called me a "F'in idiot!!!1111!1"

Pingy, I was caught off guard that anyone would think enough of the G-d thing to make comment. Hey, it makes me feel good, and I view it as a reverence. Are you saying that you can't see the reason behind it as an institutionalized 'mandate'?

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Eve MG
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Ummm... am I the only one who noticed that you spelled it with the O in your sig, Dogwater? [Wink]

To get back to the pope... in response to lynnejanet's suggestion: maybe he did say Amen several hours before he died during the stations of the cross, but this one priest is claiming he said it immediately before he died.

quote:
In one account, a Polish priest, Jarek Cielecki, claimed: "Once the faithful's prayer ended the Pope made a huge effort and pronounced the word 'Amen','' he said. "An instant later he died."

It is unclear how Mr Cielecki learned of the details as he had not been in the room at the time.



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I love dairy! Does that mean I can't be a vegan?

Posts: 1569 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Dogwater
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Ummm... am I the only one who noticed that you spelled it with the O in your sig, Dogwater?
Holy Cow!!! You're right! I didn't even notice it. I guess it's not as big a habit as I thought...like I said, I was just caught off-guard that anyone would think enough of the spelling technique to even make comment.

Guess I've just seen it so often that it's a non-issue.

And Pingy , I'm surprised we haven't met. Many of my less-than-worldly business contacts assume we all know eachother [lol]

"He's a Jewish guy outta Virginia...Ya know him?"

ETA: The thing that upset me most was truly the use of the word 'ridiculous'. I took offense to that characterization, as it felt like an indictment.

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As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

Posts: 1679 | From: Illinois | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Mad Jay
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Dogwater:
quote:
Ummm... am I the only one who noticed that you spelled it with the O in your sig, Dogwater?
Holy Cow!!! You're right!
Are you allowed to say Holy Cow?

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Nico Sasha
In between my father's fields;And the citadels of the rule; Lies a no-man's land which I must cross; To find my stolen jewel.

Posts: 4912 | From: VA | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Dogwater
Happy Holly Days


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I'm not Hindu [Smile] You were joking, right?

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as sensitive. There are few things that I don't have a thick skin about, but people's religious or spiritual beliefs and practices are something that I leave alone without comment. (As long as it doesn't harm others)

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As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

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Mad Jay
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Dogwater:
I'm not Hindu [Smile] You were joking, right?

Well, I am joking. But, seriously, if you say "Holy Cow" instead of saying something like "God Damn!!" or "Jesus!!", should'nt you refrain from saying "H-ly C-w" too?

And Hindus don't mind saying the names of their Gods, or any holy animals. In fact, many Hindus profess their faith by saying the name of the god they beleive in 101 times. So, actually saying Holy Cow once makes you 1/101 Hindu. And if you have said Holy cow 101 times already, then you are already Hindu. Welcome to the fold!! Here are your orange garments. Kindly report to the temple to get your head shaved

Nah!! just joking

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Nico Sasha
In between my father's fields;And the citadels of the rule; Lies a no-man's land which I must cross; To find my stolen jewel.

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Yeardley
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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I've always been under the impression that the one name Jews wouldn't write was 'Yahweh'. Jehovah was actually acceptable because it was formed from taking the consanants from 'Yahweh" and adding vowels between them. In essence, Jehovah was just another way of saying 'Yahewh without blasheming.

God, though, is not a name, and I always understood this to be acceptable to Jews.

Can anyone confirm this ?

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These men have a supreme vow of celibacy, like their fathers, and their fathers before them.

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Rehcsif
We Three Blings


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The amount of religious intolerance in this thread is ridiculous.

I spell God with an 'o', but if Dogwater wants to leave it out (and this is a pretty common practice), why make a big deal out of it?

We've got people here who are into swords and chainmail, others who are strict vegans, still others who believe that their god lives in the center of the moon and only comes out on the fourth of July (OK so I made that last one up). I've never seen these people ridiculed, yet someone types 'G-d' and everyone thinks its something to talk about?

Jeez people, get a little tolerance.

-Tim

Posts: 1039 | From: Minneapolis | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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