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mbb757
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Given the necessity of substantially increased security measures I offer the quote:

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty." - William Pitt

Given that many "extremists" have for many years feared the possibility of the establishment of a totalitarian "New World Order" and that escalation of the recent threats by terrorists could present an opportunity to do exactly that, and, given the fact that many of the world elite have in fact been laboring for many (many) years toward this goal (does anyone remember the riots at Gothenberg, Genoa, Seattle, etc.), Can anyone confirm or deny the following quote said to have been made by Henry Kissinger?

"Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will pledge with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the "Unknown". When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government."

- Attributed to: Henry Kissinger, Evians, France - 1991 Bilderberg Conference (see www.bilderberg.org/, www.policestate21.com, www.spotlight.org/Newsbureau/Prisoner/Media/media.html)

Or this quote supposedly made by David Rockefeller?

"We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries."

- Attributed to: David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission, in an address to one of their meetings in June, 1991 (see: www.geocities.com/mevlevi2000/NewOrder.htm, www.spotlight.org/Newsbureau/Prisoner/Media/media.html, www.amerikanexpose.com/quotes1.html/)


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Paul Ward
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Errr... call me Mr. Dense, but what's so bad about world government again? Most of the objection about it I've been exposed to has been something along the lines that they'll fly their black helicopters over your house at 8 in the morning on Saturday when you're trying to sleep in...

Plus, it seems to me that a lot of the people who were absolutely convinced last year that the Clinton administration would stage some sort of catastrophe in order to invoke the martial law clause in the FEMA guidelines are now coming out in support of things like allowing the police to tap your phones without a warrant, or suspending habeus corpus in the case of suspected terrorists.

Just my biased and possibly treasonous opinion, of course.

--Paul "tool of the moneyed elite" Ward


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Anthony
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The thing I have never understood about the "Bildbergers" is this:

If their meetings are secret, how do all these conspiracy theorists get transcripts of the meetings?


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mbb757
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Greetings to Bob and Anthony,


To Bob - Sure World government sounds great. All arms under one management. World ecological resources under one management. World wealth distributed more fairly. And, given that technology is allowing ordinary people to do extraordinarily evil things, it sounds like a natural course of human destiny. But what happens when things go bad? What happens when the next Stalin or Hitler somehow takes the rains of world power? Cant happen? Paranoid? Well, consider then that there were more then five major holocausts within the last century. One as recently as a few years ago in Kosovo. Can you imagine another Hitler with absolute world power and today’s technology. If power can be abused, it will absolutely be. Human nature is unchanged regardless of our scientific advances. That truth must always enter the equation or we are doomed to, as Dr. Kissinger said: “ … a kind of narcissistic masochism” (interview on Fox News – 10/2/01, 8:50pm. To believe in any way that some world government will somehow be benevolent is absolute madness.

To Anthony - The thing I don’t understand about the Builderbergs is why, if they are so benign, don’t we here about them on the evening news. When the worlds most powerful elite, the worlds brain trust meet to discuss the future of our planet, you would think that was news worthy. It was certainly news worthy when the EU summit meet in Gothenburg Sweden. 25,000 people demonstrated at that summit. But did you know that not 30 miles away and two weeks earlier the Bilderbergs meet without a word.


Not everything comes under the dismissing term of “conspiracy theory”. Preemptive dismissal of anything sounding “conspiracy theory”-ish sounds frighteningly like the people that I once said the tragedy at the World Trade Center could never happen. (remember the Grasshopper and the Ant?) Or that another Hitler could never happen again. But then Milosovich happened. They considered such possibilities as paranoia, and, here we are fiddling our merry way on to world totalitarianism. By the way I’m a right winger. You might be interested to note that much of the NWO rhetoric was first proposed by the far left. The New Agers were the ones to assert the idea of putting “World Resources” under UN control and, are the ones presently promoting the idea of a world leader/teacher. (see www.shareintl.org, and www.lusictrust.org). One would not have given these much credence until Gorbachev came along with his “State of the world forum”(www.worldforum.org). It would seem that at one point or another the Left and the Right meet with very common goals.


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mbb757
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PS: Your dismissals do not answer the original questions: Can anyone confirm or deny the above quotes to have been made by Dr. Kissinger and Mr. Rockefeller?
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Bad Ronald
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by mbb757:
... What happens when the next Stalin or Hitler somehow takes the rains of world power?

Good Lord, if they can control the weather, there will be no stopping them!!!

--------------------
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.
Winston Churchill


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Anthony
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to mbb577 -- I don't know, for such a secretive group, their meetings seem to be rather well known.

IIRC, most of the membership of the Bildbergers tend to be people outside government, i.e., business people, policy wonks, and the like. I guess the anarchists who like setting fir to a Starbucks to protest factory conditions in Tonga have just a full schedule that they have not gotten to the Bildberger's yet.

As for Kissenger, he has not held any government position in 25 years. He is a voice that people listen too. Remember, even in the Republican party he is not very popular, as many (including myself) feel he is too Machiavelian for the somewhat idealist American outlook many of us have (although the events of the last few weeks have tempered my idealism).


That said, I am a conservative, and I have no theoretical problem with world government, PROVIDED that the government is based on the principles of the US Constitution. Namely, (1) separation of powers, (2) limited government, (3) federalism, 4) respect for individual rights, and (5) democratic accountability of government. I fear given the current state of the world, such a world government based on these principles is a long way off, and probably ill not happen in our life times.


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Anthony
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quote:
One would not have given these much credence until Gorbachev came along with his “State of the world forum” (www.worldforum.org).


And as for Gorby, just how must power does he have again? He is ignored even in Russia. I ignore him. 99.99% of the world ignores him, except for people who somehow tie him to a conspiracy.

And yes, conspiracies exist. But they normally last a short time (say long enough for someone to learn how to fly a building into a plane) and have a limited membership.

You are talking about a conspiracy of millions, that has gone on for 30 years.


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mbb757
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Anthony – You may want to take a closer look at the various participants list out there for both the Biderburgs and the “State of the World Forum”. (See http://www.centrexnews.com/members/bilderberg/1999.htm for instance). You might as well also take a look at the participants list for dozens of other “World conferences” (see “World Conference on Women” for instance) that have been held over the last thirty years. (Actually the roots of the NWO go back hundreds of years to various “secret societies”) The participants are indeed industrialists. Being a fellow conservative I’m sure you have not forgotten the golden rule. The Bilderburgs might as well be the modern incarnation of the Thule Society. Without the wealthy industrialist fathers of the current Bilderburg group, (see Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands one of the founders of the Bilderburgs - www.centrexnews.com/members/bilderberg/bernhard.htm), Hitler would never have come to power. Millions of people would not have been cruelly murdered. I believe were there is smoke there is fire. And, what we have here is an ash heap of twisted metal and tears, and certainly enough smoke all over the web, in our libraries and on television to at least warrant an investigation of the comments in question. So far, while the comments are repeated throughout the net, no one has been able to substantially deny them. I would recommend taking a look at the various groups out there supporting the effort promoting a world government. You will notice a few things:
One: there are indeed millions of groups.
Two: while they have very commons goals, they are also very diverse in their ideologies
Three: they can be found easily and make no secret as to their aspirations and work.
Four: although there are very diverse ideologies there appears to be very discreet divisions of concerns – religious, economic, political, ecological, etc.
Fifth: It is very interesting to note that the religious concerns, the New Age movement, can be traced directly back to the same occultic philosophies (See “The Theosophical Society”) that gave rise the idea of root races and eugenics. (See: Labens Reform, Osteria, The Thule Society, Guido Von List, Stuart Houston Chamberlain, Jorge Lentz, etc).

I will leave you with a few quotes:

“The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes”. – Benjamin Disraeli (Prime Minister of England – from his novel “Coningsby, the New Generation”, published 1844)

“Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men’s views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it”. – Woodrow Wilson (The New Freedom – 1913)

“We shall have world government whether or not you like it, by conquest or consent.” – James Warburg (to the Council on Foreign Relations to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on February 17th, 1950)

“In the next century, nations as we know it will be obsolete; all states will recognize a single global authority. National sovereignty wasn’t such a good idea after all.” – Strobe Talbot (Clintons’ Deputy Secretary of State, as quoted in Time – July 20th, 1992)

“To achieve world government, it is necessary to remove from the minds of men their individualism, loyalty to family tradition, national patriotism and religious dogmas…” – Brock Chisolm (Director, World Health Organization.)

I don’t know, they don’t sound to “Checks and balances” oriented to me, and certainly not very benevolent. Given the dramatic nature of emerging technologies, the “State of the World”, their track record in history and basic human nature, the people who have always been behind this can be counted on for one thing only: to serve their own best interests. After all, according to the World Health Organization at a “State of the World Forum”, “the world can only support 230 million people”. That leaves me with the question: What happens to the rest of us?


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Silas Sparkhammer
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Anthony: I agree with your caveats regarding a "world government." I suspect that it will come about quite slowly, mostly by treaty agreements such as the WTO, and mostly lacking any firm enforcement system. A world criminal court, for instance, ought to wait until we can get a working world civil court system.

mbb577: The world press doesn't cover Bilderburg meetings...but it also doesn't cover such things as the meeting of the American Medical Association, or the meeting of the American Teacher's Association. These are all important meetings, and the agendas may have a huge effect on our lives, but no one seems particularly interested, so the "headline" news services don't cover 'em.

As for conspiracies and secret cabals, I dunno... Look at the Masons: their innermost secrets have all been published by disaffected former members. Look at the Scientologists: they have a "secret inner mystery" -- which defecting members have published on the internet. Look at the Mafia, where secrets were kept by force of knife and bullet...yet witnesses have come forth and testified against them, spilling the secrets to the world.

Any conspiracy that would be big enough to be effective would also be subject to such leakage. But we never hear of anyone coming forth and saying, "I was the one who carried messages from Kissinger to Khomeini during the Iranian hostage crisis..." You read lots and lots of material such as your original post, in which someone is accused of participation...but no one comes out and says, "I participated."

(An example: do you remember when the CIA director went to Los Angeles to meet with the public, regarding the accusation that the CIA dealt drugs there? It was a public forum, very raucous and rowdy, and broadcast live. I listened intently. One man stood up and said, "I smuggled drugs for the CIA in to Los Angeles." The CIA director asked, "What is your name, please? I can find out." The man refused to say. The director said, sagely, "If you won't be honest with me, I can't help to expose the truth. If you think I am a danger to you, then go to the newspapers. Go to the Los Angeles Times and tell them every single detail." Well, as it turns out, the man did no such thing, and, as far as anyone can tell, he was merely making it up. Now: you might say, "Ah, but he was kidnapped and killed and his body will never be found." Perhaps: but if he were actually a secret CIA operative who wanted to expose the truth, he would certainly have arranged a "dead man's handle" so that if he disappeared, his evidence would be exposed. And common sense would say that if he was in that sort of danger, he would have arranged to be tailed by friends with videocameras... In short, if he were so careless and irresponsible as to *let* himself be taken up, he was far too inept ever to have functioned in a top-secret CIA operation!)

My second objection to the notion of a secret cabal that runs the world is simply this: they're doing a rotten job. If it's a grand Jewish conspiracy...why is Israel in such grievous danger? If it's a Nazi conspiracy...why are any blacks and Jews still alive? If it's a UFO conspiracy by aliens with advanced technology...why aren't we all living in sheep pens by now?

If these guys are good enough to take over the world...why haven't they taken over the world?

To answer the original question, I have no way of knowing if Kissinger ever said what is attributed to him, but I very strongly doubt it. Real conspirators don't admit to it in front of large groups of people.

Silas (left wing conspirator 54 -- we couldn't get the funding for a vast conspiracy) Sparkhammer

--------------------
When on music's mighty pinion, souls of men to heaven rise,
Then both vanish earth's dominion, man is native to the skies.


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Paul Undead
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Just an observation: people who don't want their theories lumped into the category of "conspiracy theories" and then dismissed, should work as hard as possible to keep from presenting their theories in the same manner as those who present "conspiracy theories."
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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Undead:
Just an observation: people who don't want their theories lumped into the category of "conspiracy theories" and then dismissed, should work as hard as possible to keep from presenting their theories in the same manner as those who present "conspiracy theories."

The more I think about that, the more my head hurts...

But, yeh, a credible chain of evidence would be nice now and then...

Silas (missing link in the great chain of life) Sparkhammer

--------------------
When on music's mighty pinion, souls of men to heaven rise,
Then both vanish earth's dominion, man is native to the skies.


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mbb757
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Yes indeed, treaty agreements have worked so well for the UN. I suspect that perhaps a little help in the way of “…an outside threat from beyond…” could go along way to “setting a stage”. Why are we still here? Simple, because there is no machine yet available, that can do our jobs maintaining the basic infrastructure. But that will not be true for long. ( see Liquid logic – Wired magazine September 2001 - http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.09/quantum.html, and Ray Kurzweil’s “The Age of Spiritual Machines”). If there were to be developed a true artificial person and there were also to be developed a “cure” for aging, do you really think that the people that own the technology will release it for all to benefit? If you can’t answer that question, perhaps you will remember what has happened over the last 20 years as computer technology has developed. With every advance to the next “critical mass” of computing power, a chain reaction of corporate reorganizations was triggered. Do you really believe that these benign groups of the world intellectual elite have not anticipated that? With the verbiage these days about the world being ecologically able to support only 230 million people, how long do you really think it would be before some of them began to ask ‘why do we still need six billion people in the world taking up OUR resources’? By the way the Bilderburgs are not a teachers union they are a group of people who, for all intents and purposes, are attempting to reform the Roman Empire. Such meetings that so dramatically affect the welfare of every person on earth is not presented in any forum that give voice to those people. By the way, the tenants and aims of secret societies and world conferences have never been correlated up until technology made it possible. However, I wouldn’t think that this would not present much of a problem to the “World Workers” as such information is available only through sources that can easily be discredited and therefore blissfully ignored. Nonetheless, the information is available straight from the horses’ mouth, for anyone willing to do the work. The most difficult thing is to overcome the same state of denial that was so prevalent in Manhattan just before the WTO disaster.
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Silas Sparkhammer
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mbb577: I'm unclear on what you're saying; can you simplify it a little for me?

re the world's "carrying capacity," 230 million is a good estimate for the population limit for humankind -- in a state of nature. The minute we start planting, ploughing, and irrigating, the number jumps to the billions. There is no clear indication that six billion is putting a serious strain on the earth's food resources -- however, there are serious problems with *water* resources, *oil* reserves, salinity in agricultural soil, and the destruction of wildlife habitat.

So, yeah, if I had my druthers, we'd all have fewer babies and let the population dwindle to a quarter billion or so. That's enough to continue the work of mankind at a post-industrialized level.

(We also REALLY need to get the solar power satellites up!)

If all of this, done peacefully, can be accomplished by a secret cabal of behind-the-scenes moguls...may I please join them?

Silas (I can keep a secret! Really!) Sparkhammer

--------------------
When on music's mighty pinion, souls of men to heaven rise,
Then both vanish earth's dominion, man is native to the skies.


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bufungla
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by mbb757:
With the verbiage these days about the world being ecologically able to support only 230 million people, how long do you really think it would be before some of them began to ask ‘why do we still need six billion people in the world taking up OUR resources’?

Besides what Silas has pointed out, what's the point of being a Bilderburg if you're only controlling a world with 230 million people on it? Doesn't that also reduce your income? Wouldn't the controller of, say, the international oil cartel stand to be much richer if he had several billions of people using and buying oil, rather than a measley 230 million? What's the point of having limitless production capabilities if there are limited numbers of consumers?

buf 'the first myth of management is that it exists' fungla (and boy does that look like crap with a single name)

--------------------
"Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."

George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra


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Anthony
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Where did this 230 million number come from? There are 270+ million in the US, another 26 million in Canada and what 330 million in Europe and they seem able to feed themselves just fine.

China seems able to feed themselves just fine also.


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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
Where did this 230 million number come from? There are 270+ million in the US, another 26 million in Canada and what 330 million in Europe and they seem able to feed themselves just fine.

China seems able to feed themselves just fine also.


But we (Americans) can't feed ourselves without the use of artificial fertilizers, motorized ploughs and combines, airplanes to spray pesticides, etc.

250 million (plus or minus a billion) is about the number of people who could exist (only a twentieth of whom would be farmers) at a "sustainable" level of technology. i.e., using corn-stalks for alcohol to power the tractors needed for ploughing, etc.

If all the oil went away (by some miracle of rhetoric,) then about a billion people would die of starvation (and probably another three billion would die from the wars that would follow...)

If we developed fusion power tomorrow, the numbers would change completely: with workable fusion, we could probably boost the population to 12 billion and sustain it. Solar Power Satellites can also help maintain the extant population.

But, oh, how much more sensible simply to have fewer babies! Think of the improvement in the quality of life for everyone: lower prices for houses and land; less pollution and crowding; more parking places! (And, frankly, I wouldn't mind a bit if alcohol-powered cars could only go at 40 mph. I'm not in any great hurry...are you?)

But, honestly, to answer your real question: the number is meaningless. Some expert pulled it out of his sigmoid colon. The "carrying capacity" of the earth has been estimated from 10 million humans to 100 billion humans, and nobody can really defend their guesses.

Silas (fewer is better!) Sparkhammer

--------------------
When on music's mighty pinion, souls of men to heaven rise,
Then both vanish earth's dominion, man is native to the skies.


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christmas tree kitapper
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quote:
Originally posted by mbb757:
By the way the Bilderburgs are not a teachers union they are a group of people who, for all intents and purposes, are attempting to reform the Roman Empire.

Cool! Roman orgies for everyone! Not to mention those wonderful-looking elaborate Roman baths!

ki"Janet Reno: New Head Vestal Virgin!"Tap

--------------------
"I have never in my life been more disappointed by a politician I voted for than I have been with George Bush. He is a total liberal."- overheard by me on the shuttle to the U of A game on Nov. 11th.


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Zibahcat
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Originally posted by mbb757:
quote:
they are a group of people who, for all intents and purposes, are attempting to reform the Roman Empire.

Well, it's about time! I for one am sick of the decadence and fiddling the Roman Empire gets up to. Reform is long overdue.

BTW, does anyone else think "The Bilderbergs" sounds like a Sid & Marty Krofft Saturday morning show?

zibah "starring H. R. Kissinger" cat


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Silas Sparkhammer
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Oh, heck, the Romans conquered the world long ago!

I hope y'all have seen the statue of George Washington as a Roman potentate, with the toga worn fashionably off the shoulder...

We're a Republic... We've got a Senate... The House of Representatives have fasces (bundles of sticks with an axe-head) on the wall. We've got Eagles as symbols. We've got "e pluribus unum" -- Latin! -- as a motto. Our legal system is riddled with Latin -- res ipse loquitur! Every Podunk town has a courthouse with Greco-Roman columns...

The world IS Rome!

("Eis aiona! Tui sum!")

Silas (Latin American) Sparkhammer

--------------------
When on music's mighty pinion, souls of men to heaven rise,
Then both vanish earth's dominion, man is native to the skies.


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bufungla
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quote:
Originally posted by Zibahcat:
Originally posted by mbb757:

BTW, does anyone else think "The Bilderbergs" sounds like a Sid & Marty Krofft Saturday morning show?

zibah "starring H. R. Kissinger" cat


YOMANK! When you delurk, you really make it count. Now if I can only find the song-stuck-in-my-head thread so I can quit hearing "The Bugaloos" theme song ....

--------------------
"Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."

George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra


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Anthony
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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:

But we (Americans) can't feed ourselves without the use of artificial fertilizers, motorized ploughs and combines, airplanes to spray pesticides, etc.



Not to argue with you, but my answer is "so what." We also do not treat disease with leaches and bleeding anywmore.

My point is that with technology, the numner of people which can be "sustained" (I would say supported) is quite high.

Lets think about this, whale oil was once used as lighting method of choice. So we hunted whales to extinction. And technology found replacements.


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Silas Sparkhammer
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:

My point is that with technology, the numner of people which can be "sustained" (I would say supported) is quite high.

Lets think about this, whale oil was once used as lighting method of choice. So we hunted whales to extinction. And technology found replacements.


Well, personally, I, too, have "faith" that we will find replacements, improvements, innovations, and so on... But I also have to confess that is merely faith...

The key word is sustainable... And *no one* knows the sustainable level of agriculture on earth.

One comfort: if, by some evil miracle, all the oil ran out, we could stretch things by lowering our diet: eating less beef, more chicken, less meat of any kind and more veggies, planting veggie gardens where we now have lawns, etc. etc.

But one serious concern: the water *has* run out. There is No More Water. The underground aquifers are shrinking, and the rivers are looking pretty shallow. Unless someone can figure out an "Amazon Pipeline," there's gonna be some thirsty people in the next ten years.

Silas (Techno-optimist...and no kids) Sparkhammer

--------------------
When on music's mighty pinion, souls of men to heaven rise,
Then both vanish earth's dominion, man is native to the skies.


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noreen
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:


Not to argue with you, but my answer is "so what." We also do not treat disease with leaches and bleeding anywmore.

My point is that with technology, the numner of people which can be "sustained" (I would say supported) is quite high.

Lets think about this, whale oil was once used as lighting method of choice. So we hunted whales to extinction. And technology found replacements.


What did replace the whales? And what will replace manatees, Florida panthers, mountain gorillas?

--------------------
"No matter what kind of a twisted sexual mutant you happen to be, you've got millions of pals out there. Type in 'Find people that have sex with goats that are on fire' and the computer will say, 'Specify type of goat.'"


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Zibahcat
The Red and the Green Stamps


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originally posted by bufungla:
quote:
YOMANK! When you delurk, you really make it count.

I have my good days. Thanks.

quote:
Now if I can only find the song-stuck-in-my-head thread so I can quit hearing "The Bugaloos" theme song ....

I'd feel more sympathetic to you if I thought I would ever get the visual out of my head: of Kissinger, Disraeli and a bunch of fatcat international banker types fluttering through a psychedelic landscape wearing goofy antennae and teeny little wings strapped to their business suits...

zibah "caught in the krofftfire" cat


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bufungla
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Zibahcat:
originally posted by bufungla:

I'd feel more sympathetic to you if I thought I would ever get the visual out of my head: of Kissinger, Disraeli and a bunch of fatcat international banker types fluttering through a psychedelic landscape wearing goofy antennae and teeny little wings strapped to their business suits...

zibah "caught in the krofftfire" cat



Well, if it makes you feel any better, try to imagine Hunter S. Thompson a.k.a. Uncle Duke seeing the above during one of his lectures .....

--------------------
"Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."

George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra


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christmas tree kitapper
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Zibahcat:
I'd feel more sympathetic to you if I thought I would ever get the visual out of my head: of Kissinger, Disraeli and a bunch of fatcat international banker types fluttering through a psychedelic landscape wearing goofy antennae and teeny little wings strapped to their business suits...

Great! Now I have the song and the visual in my head!!!! This is going to seriously warp my life for a while....

ki"in the air and flying free"tap

--------------------
"I have never in my life been more disappointed by a politician I voted for than I have been with George Bush. He is a total liberal."- overheard by me on the shuttle to the U of A game on Nov. 11th.


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Zibahcat
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Kitap said:
quote:
Great! Now I have the song and the visual in my head!!!! This is going to seriously warp my life for a while....


Bwwwaaahaaahaaaa! My work here is done!

zibah "witchKrofft" cat


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Cat Grey
Happy Holly Days


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The U.N., in its current form, can't keep the peace in a country the size of Rhode Island. What would they do with the whole U.S.?

Leaving that to side, it seems to me that in a world where global thermonuclear annihilation is possible, some sort of world government (even if it's just an accord between national governments) becomes not only possible, but necessary. Why should I believe that things will work better if they're run locally?

Also: assuming the the world's resources are limited, the the question is not how many people the Earth can support. Sooner or later, the question becomes, 'what kind of life can those people have?'

Science and technology have the potential to extend our resources, or find new ones; it may be that, on a practical basis, the world's resources are not limited. In that case, though, we may be looking at a race between how fast the population uses resources up, and how fast Science and Tech can come up with new ones. Either way, it behooves us to keep our population under control. Unrestrained growth is, IMHO, basically a recipe for disaster.

Cat "Just some thoughts" Grey

--------------------
"Beer assuages grief. No one tells you that." ~Arrow-Tech IV


Posts: 1612 | From: Darkest America (Dallas/Ft. Worth, Texas) | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Cat Grey
Happy Holly Days


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As far as the OP goes:
Are you seriously asking us to furnish some proof that those things were not said by the people they are attributed to? While I'm at it, shall I look for 'proof' that Clinton never said, "By the way, I buried Jimmy Hoffa under my swimming pool back in Arkansas?" I'm not sure it's even possible to prove that someone didn't say something.

However, let's suppose the quotations are accurate and properly attributed. The first one: "Scared people will look to their leaders for protection. This is how a unified world government will come to exist." Okay, fine. The quotation describes a scenario. What does the next part of Kissinger's speech say? "This would be a disaster?" "Thus our triumph is assured?" "All we have to do is scare them, and the world is ours! Muwahahahaha!" "It is therefore critical to reassure people that they are safe." It doesn't say.

The second quotation is more sinister, of course. But then, if all the major news media know the secret, it isn't much of a secret, is it? And again, the remark is offered with little in the way of context. Also, depending on which link you check, the dates given for the statements vary by at least a year in both cases.

Now, the links:
First, Bilderberg - The High Priests of Globalization: This is a website run by what, for lack of a better term, I'm going to refer to as End-Timers. (Christians who believe that we are living in the End Times, that the Battle at Armageddon is iminent, and that Jesus will be returning Any Day Now.) Consider, for instance, this page on their site.

Next:
Police State Compact Disk - Fight The New World Order. In addition to concerns over chem-trails, implant chips, and human cloning, they want the public to be educated about One World Religion, Christian persecution, church seizues, and anti-Christian globalization. Links on their main page include Jack Van Impe Ministries and Exposing Satanism. More End-Timers.

The third link comes from spotlight, which seems to be out of business. From their "about us" page:

quote:
The SPOTLIGHT is the nation's largest populist weekly newspaper, devoted to bringing the truth to light and daring to go where the major US media does not for the past 25 years.

Every week The SPOTLIGHT covers these timely topics of vital interest to all patriotic Americans"

- Will the Monopolists take over small business?
- The Taxpayer's Bill of Rights. (We lobbied for this - now it's law!)
- Your Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms.
- Runaway inflation and/or depression ahead...and what you can do?
- Does the media distort or ignore the news?
- The latest IRS attacks on Christian schools.
- Wholistic healing - A new approach to medicine and healing.
- Suggestions for personal financial well-being.
- Does the Israeli Lobby control Congress?
- Is the Federal Reserve privately owned and does it manipulate the economy?
- Who is behind the push for one world government and why?
- Are NAFTA and GATT good for Americans?
- Why is incriminating evidence about the Kennedy assassination being suppressed?
- Is the federal budget a fraud?
- Is the United Nations agenda good for the U.S.?



I'd say that these folks were garden-variety conspiracy theorists, judging by what's left of their website. The Public Eye, however, contends that the liberty Lobby (spotlight's publishers) are racist, anti-semite, and homophobic.

The geocities link not only provides information on the Impending Evil Of The New World Order, they also discuss its connections with UFOs, extra-terrestrials, the Illuminati, and the Hollow Earth. About as well-balanced as an inverted pyramid, in other words.

The next one is also from the Spotlight and the Liberty lobby, so I'll skip ahead to the last one:

Amerikan Expose by Chris Gerner, who is part of the Genesis Communications Network. Most of the material is audio, which makes it a bit tedious to sort through, but it sounds like pretty much everything is part of a plot to take away our freedoms.

I'm not going to dismiss this as 'just another conspiracy theory. I'm going to dismiss it as 'observer bias' instead.

Cat "not even terribly entertaining" Grey

--------------------
"Beer assuages grief. No one tells you that." ~Arrow-Tech IV


Posts: 1612 | From: Darkest America (Dallas/Ft. Worth, Texas) | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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Cat and Cat Again: agreement with your views, and thanks for the research! I suspected as much, but I did hope that the original poster would share more of his thinking with us, rather than just pointing to web sites.

The "end times" have been upon us for centuries now... Ah, well...

(Q: who is it that speaks of the "ebb tides?"
A: a fundamentalist with a stuffy nose.)

Silas (sniff) Sparkhammer

--------------------
When on music's mighty pinion, souls of men to heaven rise,
Then both vanish earth's dominion, man is native to the skies.


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Anthony
The Red and the Green Stamps


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My take on conspiracies is this.

1. Conspiracies occur.

2. The longer the conspiracy remains secret, the more likely it is to be exposed.

3. The more people that know a secret, the less likely it will remain a secret.

4. Successful conspiracies involve few people and stay secret only a short time.

5. Most things people call conspiracies are not.

6. The "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" against Bill Clinton (of which I apparently am a member) did eventually seceed in getting him out of office by building a time machine, going back to 1947, and passing a constitutional amendment limiting him to 2 terms. This may have been done with alien assistance, but I am not privy to that portion of the plan.


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Ryan's Privates
The Red and the Green Stamps


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The beauty of the conspiracy theory is that it can never be disproved. Concrete, incontrovertible evidence proving there was no conspiracy can simply be dismissed as part of the conspiracy.


Remeber the words of the 'Teflon Don'.....

"3 people do not make a conspiracy if 2 of them are dead!"


Ryan's " It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you" Privates


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bufungla
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
(Q: who is it that speaks of the "ebb tides?"
A: a fundamentalist with a stuffy nose.)

*RIM SHOT* (bugger - angle brackets a la Dave Barry don't work here)

I've always called them "Revelation junkies", and *everything's* a sign with them. I'm still waiting for my invitation to the "I told you so" banquet (consisting of the canned meat, bottled water, and other stored provisions they bought in ton lots for TEOFTWAWKI)

--------------------
"Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."

George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra


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Brad from Georgia
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:

(Q: who is it that speaks of the "ebb tides?"
A: a fundamentalist with a stuffy nose.)

Silas (sniff) Sparkhammer


"First the tide...rushes in...plants a kiss...on the shore,
Then roars...out to sea...and the sea...
is very still once more...."

Brad "that's righteous, brother" from Georgia

--------------------
"No hard feelin's and HOPpy New Year!"--Walt Kelly
Hear what you're missing: ARTC podcasts! http://artcpodcast.org/


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