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Author Topic: Quotes on Gun Control
Il-Mari
We Three Blings


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Found these on the website of a 2nd amendment fanatic, the question is are they genuine:

quote:
"The Constitution of the United States of America clearly affirms the right of every American citizen to bear arms. And as Americans, we will not give up a single right guarenteed under the Constitution. The history of unpunished violence against our people clearly indicates that we must be prepared to defend ourselves or we will continue to be a defenseless people at the mercy of a ruthless and violent racist mob." -Malcolm X

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." - Mahtma Gandhi, Indian Political Leader

"Our main agenda is to have ALL guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It does not matter if you have to distort facts or even lie." ---Sarah Brady Handgun Control Inc. The National Educator. January, 1994


I doubt that Gandhi, with his strict non-violence stand, would have liked for anyone to be armed, and he probably wouldn't consider it the worst thing the the British did.

I couldn't find much about the National Educator, what I did see seems to indicate that it's a heavily biased right-wing paper of some sort.

If at all possible. I'd like cites to any information you may find on these quotes.

--------------------
When you mix faith with science, you serve neither and weaken both.

- Richard P. Sloan and Larry VandeCreek


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domina
The Red and the Green Stamps


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I've read quite a bit by and about Malcolm X and I've never come across that quote. I believe he and other Nation of Islam people had armed bodyguards, so he probably was in favor of the right to bear arms. But what does ring false about this quote is the line, "And as Americans..." Malcolm X was basically a secessionist for most of his public life, saying that black people would never be accepted as "Americans" and should carve out their own country. He backed off this position in the last year of his life, but even then he wasn't exactly a patriot. So I'd put that quote in the possible-but-not-very-likely category.

The other two sound completely bogus.


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theangryQ
The Red and the Green Stamps


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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." - Mahtma Gandhi, Indian Political Leader

No way would Ghandi say that. Not in a million years. He hated the use of violence altogether: guns, swords, fists, anything.

"Our main agenda is to have ALL guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It does not matter if you have to distort facts or even lie." ---Sarah Brady Handgun Control Inc. The National Educator. January, 1994

Even if this was true (which I doubt), she would never admit that.


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KingDavid8
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
"Our main agenda is to have ALL guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It does not matter if you have to distort facts or even lie." ---Sarah Brady Handgun Control Inc. The National Educator. January, 1994

According to Handgun Control's website (www.handguncontrol.org):

quote:

"Handgun Control, chaired by Sarah Brady, was founded in 1974 by Dr. Mark Borinsky and N.T. "Pete" Shields, two victims of gun violence. Based in Washington, D.C., HCI works with law enforcement, public health, religious, and community groups across the country to strengthen and protect federal, state and local gun control laws, but does not seek to ban all guns.

So, according to them, they're not trying to ban all guns. I'm sure that won't stop the guy who runs that pro-gun site from claiming that banning guns is their hidden objective or something, though. I guess he feels that it doesn't matter if he has to distort facts or even lie...

David

--------------------
www.MySpace.com/KDavid8


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Jaeger
We Three Blings


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I agree that it seems unlikely, but a quick search on Gandhi/Guns/Quote brought this up a few times.
Quoteland.com lists it.
http://www.potomac-inc.org/gandhi.html gives this explanation, which makes some sense:
""Arms" in this context were military arms not the personal weapons of private individuals. The context of "depriving of the whole nation of arms" was the refusal of the British to conscript Indians into the British Army during the First World War. Gandhi was an extreme anti-militarist. The statement is odd coming out of him, but he used the circumstance for political purposes to advance the cause of Home Rule and Independence."

- Jaeger


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Ewok
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. If we want the Arms Act to be repealed, if we want to learn the use of arms, here is a golden opportunity. If the middle classes render voluntary help to Government in the hour of its trial, distrust will disappear, and the ban on possessing arms will be withdrawn." Mohandas K. Gandhi, Autobiography: The Story of My Experiments with Truth, [u]Chapter XXVII, Recruiting Campaign[/u], Page 403, Dover paperback edition, 1983. This book was originally published by Public Affairs Press in 1948.
I guess the question here is, what did this "Arms Act" do?

Here's a good source for quotes, for and against, true and believed to be bogus: Important Quotes on Guns, Liberty, Government, Militia & Crime

Here's another bogus Sarah Brady quote from the same site:

quote:
"Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."

This phony quote is often cited as a statement from Sarah Brady, Chairman, HCI, to Howard Metzenbaum, The National Educator, January, 1994, Page 3. "Sarah" and "Metzenbaum" are sometimes misspelled as "Sara" and "Metzanbaum" on the Internet.

There are several problems with this quote, including the fact that the common citation does not check out. In addition, Sarah Brady would usually be considered a conservative Republican on most politic issues besides firearms, and therefore not likely to embrace much more of the Socialist agenda than gun control.



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Ewok
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
This is the statement of an organization which was founded and led by Malcolm X:

We, the members of the Organization of Afro-American Unity gathered together in Harlem, New York:....

Convinced that it is the inalienable right of all people to control their own destiny;

Resolved to reinforce the common bond of purpose between our people by submerging all of our differences and establishing a non-religious and non-sectarian constructive
program for human rights;

Do hereby present this charter.

I - Establishment

The Organization of Afro-American Unity shall include all people of African descent in the Western Hemisphere, as well as our brothers and sisters on the African Continent.

II - Self-Defense

Since self-preservation is the first law of nature, we assert the Afro-American's right of self-defense.

The Constitution of the U. S. A. clearly affirms the right of every American citizen to bear arms. And as Americans, we will not give up a single right guaranteed under the
Constitution. The history of the unpunished violence against our people clearly indicates that we must be prepared to defend ourselves or we will continue to be a
defenseless people at the mercy of a ruthless and violent racist mob.

We assert that in those areas where the government is either unable or unwilling to protect the lives and property of our people, that our people are within their rights to
protect themselves by whatever means necessary. A man with a rifle or club can only be stopped by a person who defends himself with a rifle or club.

Tactics based solely on morality can only succeed when you are dealing with basically moral people or a moral system. A man or system which oppresses a man because
of his color is not moral. It is the duty of every Afro-American and every Afro-American community through out this country to protect its people against mass murderers,
bombers, lynchers, floggers, brutalizers and exploiters.

* Dated June 28. 1964.



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Gus
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Il-Mari:
Found these on the website of a 2nd amendment fanatic, the question is are they genuine:

Interesting that a pro-gun site would use quotes from two men slain by handguns. Irony?


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Ewok
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
two men slain by handguns
They weren't slain by handguns, they were slain by murderers. James Earl Ray used a rifle to assassinate Martin Luther King Jr. Does that make this ironic?
quote:
"Finally, I contended that the debate over the question of self-defense was unnecessary since few people suggested that Negroes should not defend themselves as individuals when attacked. The question was not whether one should use his gun when his home was attacked, but whether it was tactically wise to use a gun while participating in an organized demonstration." Martin Luther King, Jr., Where Do We Go From Here: Chaos or Community? Chapter II, Black Power, Page 27, Harper & Row Publishers Inc., First Edition, 1967.

"As we have seen, the first public expression of disenchantment with nonviolence arose around the question of "self-defense." In a sense this is a false issue, for the right to defend one's home and one's person when attacked has been guaranteed through the ages by common law." Martin Luther King, Jr., Where Do We Go From Here: Chaos or Community? Chapter II, Black Power, Page 55, Harper & Row Publishers Inc., First Edition, 1967.



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Jaeger
We Three Blings


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A bit more on the Gandhi quote-

I asked an Indian National I work with about this, and his immediate comment was that Indians DON'T have the right to bear arms, in the USA meaning of the phrase, even after 50 years of independence, which I think is a pretty strong argument that Gandhi didn't mean it in this way.

- Jaeger


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Il-Mari
We Three Blings


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quote:
This is the statement of an organization which was founded and led by Malcolm X:

I assume you found this on a pro-gun site Ewok, I've seen it too and find out quite odd that it doesn't state WHAT organisation it's from. To the best of my knowledge he only founded the Organization of Afro-American Unity and Muslim Mosque Inc. both of which were fairly similar to the Nation of Islam from which he had been thrown out (i.e. organizations which promoted the seperation of the black population from white americans). Since you present that document as evidence to the affirmative, I must ask you what organisation it is from as well as a reliable cite.

- Il-Mari

Edit: The date in question is the date at which Malcolm X declared the formation of the OAAU, so if legit, this would have to be a part of their founding charter.

--------------------
When you mix faith with science, you serve neither and weaken both.

- Richard P. Sloan and Larry VandeCreek


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Ewok
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Uh, I guess you didn't make it past the first sentence, because the second sentence starts:
quote:
We, the members of the Organization of Afro-American Unity
quote:
Since you present that document as evidence to the affirmative, I must ask you what organisation it is from as well as a reliable cite.
Tell you what, why don't you go find the charter of the OAAU?

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Il-Mari
We Three Blings


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Yup, I'm sorry. My Bad. Anyway, I did find it at the Afro-American Almanac, the part on self defence reads:

V. SELF-DEFENSE

quote:
In order to enslave a people and keep them subjugated, their right to self-defense must be denied. They must be constantly terrorized, brutalized, and murdered. These tactics of suppression have been developed to a new high by vicious racists whom the United States government seems unwilling or incapable of dealing with in terms of the law of this land. Before the emancipation it was the Black man who suffered humiliation, torture, castration, and murder. Recently our women and children, more and more, are becoming the victims of savage racists whose appetite for blood increases daily and whose deeds of depravity seem to be openly encouraged by all law-enforcement agencies. Over five thousand Afro-Americans have been lynched since the Emancipation Proclamation and not one murderer has been brought to justice!

The Organization of Afro-American Unity, being aware of the increased violence being visited upon the Afro-American and of the open sanction of this violence and murder by the police departments throughout this country and the federal agencies, do affirm our right and obligation to defend ourselves in order to survive as a people.

We encourage the Afro-Americans to defend themselves against the wanton attacks of racist aggressors whose sole aim is to deny us the guarantees of the United Nations Charter of Human Rights and of the Constitution of the United States.

The Organization of Afro-American Unity will take those private steps that are necessary to insure the survival of the AfroAmerican people in the face of racist aggression and the defense of our women and children. We are within our rights to see to it that the Afro-American people who fulfill their obligations to the United States government (we pay taxes and serve in the armed forces of this country like American citizens do) also exact from this government the obligations that it owes us as a people, or exact these obligations ourselves. Needless to say, among this number we include protection of certain inalienable rights such as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

In areas where the United States government has shown itself unable and/or unwilling to bring to justice the racist oppressors, murderers, who kill innocent children and adults, the Organization of Afro-American Unity advocates that the Afro-American people insure ourselves that justice is done, whatever the price and by any means necessary.


So nothing about the second amendment I'm afraid, so I believe we can sefely say it's not true.

Afro-American Almanac

--------------------
When you mix faith with science, you serve neither and weaken both.

- Richard P. Sloan and Larry VandeCreek


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Ewok
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Yeah, I just found that. If the quote you were asking about is true, it's probably from a speech, not the actual charter. Apparently someone named John Henrik Clarke helped write the charter. I suspect that Dr. Clarke toned down Malcolm X's words. In any event, Malcolm X clearly advocated armed self-defense.
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Il-Mari
We Three Blings


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quote:
Yeah, I just found that. If the quote you were asking about is true, it's probably from a speech, not the actual charter

Oh come now, you believe that Malcolm X said the exact same quote that is in the fake charter you posted? Seems highly unlikely to me. As was mentioned before, Malcolm X almost never referred to his people as Americans. Blacks, Negroes, Muslims, and Brothers were terms he used, not Americans. He didn't really even believe that there could be any peace between his people and the white Americans until his insightful trip to Mecca.

As for him being a proponent of armed self-defence, I'll concede that, but the truth remains that there is no proof that he ever said this particular statement.

The person whose site I'm quoting often edited quotes to make them more concise or believable, so I have little doubt that he stumbled across the same forged document that you found and just took out a the part he liked best.

As ever, if you find out more, I want to know about it.

- Il-Mari

--------------------
When you mix faith with science, you serve neither and weaken both.

- Richard P. Sloan and Larry VandeCreek


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Ewok
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Check this out:
quote:
Huey P. Newton and Bobby Seale, Black Panther Party Platform and Program, October 1966

Occasion: Founding document of Black Panthers.


quote:
7. We want an immediate end to POLICE BRUTALITY and MURDER of black people.

We believe we can end police brutality in our black community by organizing black self-defense groups that are dedicated to defending our black community from racist police oppression and brutality. The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States gives a right to bear arms. We therefore believe that all black people should arm themselves for self-defense.


Of course, the 2nd amendment doesn't give the right; the right is pre-existing. The 2nd amendment just affirms that the fedgov won't infringe the right. The 14th overrode the Dred Scott case, and extended the bill of rights to the states, so that the states couldn't infringe the rights either. Of course, they do anyway....

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Il-Mari
We Three Blings


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Why bring the Black Panthers into this? The topic at hand is Malcolm X, so I don't really see the relevence of documents made by organizations that he was not a part of and were published a year after his death in 1965.

There's no question in anyone's mind that the black panthers were just about the most overtly vioelent organized black organization in the nation at the time (I'd say they surpassed Malcolm X's level of violent by quite a bit by being much more overt about it in thier documents and speeches).

- Il-Mari

--------------------
When you mix faith with science, you serve neither and weaken both.

- Richard P. Sloan and Larry VandeCreek


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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Ewok:
Of course, the 2nd amendment doesn't give the right; the right is pre-existing. The 2nd amendment just affirms that the fedgov won't infringe the right.

Yeah, it's me again. (Sober. Really!)

Fedgov or states today, with the expansion of the 14th...


I think there's something about arms in the Magna Carta, but, to be honest, I don't have a copy.


I was just gonna ask (with quibbling in mind) if you meant by "prexisting" something like "natural rights." I challenged Pinqy on that one, but didn't get a response... The way I see it, the problem with "natural rights" is that they include a lot of things we would not consider "rights" today. For instance, it is a "natural right" for the strong to pillage the weak. On the other hand, there is no real agreement today whether homosexual relations are a "natural right."

I suppose, though, the reasonable thing is to take this to another forum...

Silas Sparkhammer

P.S. I'm gonna sound off HERE about the discussion about post-padding, just to avoid post-padding myself: hey, everybody, it's a non issue! Some people post vast essays with incredible literary value...and some people just up and toss out a quip now and then. We aren't measuring "manhood" here!

--------------------
When on music's mighty pinion, souls of men to heaven rise,
Then both vanish earth's dominion, man is native to the skies.


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Ewok
The Red and the Green Stamps


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I meant in terms of the mindset of the people who wrote the amendments. I guess they would say they're "god given" rights.
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Kate
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Jaeger:
A bit more on the Gandhi quote-

I asked an Indian National I work with about this, and his immediate comment was that Indians DON'T have the right to bear arms, in the USA meaning of the phrase, even after 50 years of independence, which I think is a pretty strong argument that Gandhi didn't mean it in this way.



Interestingly enough, the Indian Arms Act 1959 is indeed an Act prohibiting the bearing of arms. Of course, it was passed after Independence, but it seems reasonable to assume that it replaced an earlier statute of the same name.

Assuming the earlier Arms Act did have the same intent, the quotation from Mahatma Ghandi seems completely out of tune with all one knows of his beliefs. I'm puzzled.

Kate "oh, well" S


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Fusca 1976
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Jaeger:
"Arms" in this context were military arms not the personal weapons of private individuals.

Yes - to everybody not North-American, "depriving a whole nation of arms" means "depriving the Nation of its Army, Navy and Air Force", not "depriving the private citizens of the RKBA".

I don't know if Ghandi ever said or wrote such sentence, but, even if he did, it did not mean what the sitemaster read into it.

As for Malcolm X, he was trying to begin a civil war, case in which, of course, guns are pretty useful. By this standard, you may consider McVeigh's statement about "colateral damage" perfectly natural (it would be the speech of any US Army officer about civilian casualties in Vietnam, for instance): if you think that you ARE already at war (as Mc Veigh seems to believe), then you should look at those things from a military standpoint.

Of course, guns don't resemble sexual organs just in their shape: as well as "brains are the most important sexual organ", brains are also the most important weapon...

Luís "if guns were banned, only criminals would play Russian Roulette" Henrique


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Grumpy
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Luís Henrique:
to everybody not North American, "depriving a whole nation of arms" means "depriving the Nation of its Army, Navy and Air Force"

I've also read that "keep" (as in "keep and bear arms") is etymologically related to a castle's keep (a stone fortification), such that the verb should be read as "stockpile" or "maintain an arsenal." In this sense, the word connotes not mere possession, but military-scale preparation. Likewise, to "bear" means not simply to carry, but to mobilize for a military action.

--Grump "playing for keeps" y


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