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Author Topic: Immigrants Don't Use Dishwashers?
lazerus the duck
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Rehcsif:
quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
Why don't you site me on it if you are certain it's not possible.

I specifically said it probably is possible. I'd be willing to bet a good sum of money that the story that sparked this was NOT true, however.

-Tim "That steak dinner I mentioned above is still available, too"

You don't need to site specifics, the pressure has to be greater than the average person can press. Find me an AC unit that in an enclosed space can lift even say a small to middling child on the updraft. Even a bouncy castle (which has significantly greater motors) needs an outlet valve because pressure backup on the system would burn out the motor without it.

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All the world's a face, And all the men and women merely acne.

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Ulkomaalainen
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Hi Shadowduck,

my "never having heard" referred to the following:

quote:
Originally posted by Buzzkiller:
Some friends of ours--an intelligent, upper-middle-class couple who emigrated from England in the 90s--say they had absolutely no experience with dishwashers before moving to the U.S. and renting an apartment equipped with one. (And I don't just mean they had never had one. I didn't have one till I was 28, but I had seen them used in friends' houses and had a general idea of how they were loaded and used.)

Actually, I cannot judge much about differences between GER and UK, but I would have thought that it would be at least as you said, people at least know about it.

Ulko "no offence meant" maalainen

ETA: completion of train of thought

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Rehcsif:
quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
Why don't you site me on it if you are certain it's not possible.

I specifically said it probably is possible. I'd be willing to bet a good sum of money that the story that sparked this was NOT true, however.

-Tim "That steak dinner I mentioned above is still available, too"

I'd bet that it was based in truth. I don't think they couldn't open the door, rather it was difficult to open the door. There's a big difference between the two.

Incidentally, has anyone ever pennied a door? It doesn't take all that much preasure against the bolt to make it unable to slide. This probably what was happening rather than so much preasure that someone could not push the door open.

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Buzzkiller
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quote:
quote:
"Not having heard of one" as mentioned in some post regarding the UK would never happen round here.
Maybe I'm missing something, but who said that? You'd be very hard pressed to find anyone here that'd never heard of dishwashers, it's just unusual to actually own one.
I was the one who originally asked about how common dishwashers are in Europe. I said that my friends from England "had absolutely no experience" with dishwashers...by which I meant that they had never been around them. Obviously they had heard of them. Even the primitive, cave-dwelling English have some knowledge of the outside world. (Sorry...couldn't resist throwing that in for chocolate-martini!)
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Shadowduck
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quote:
Originally posted by Ulkomaalainen:
Hi Shadowduck,

my "never having heard" referred to the following:

quote:
Originally posted by Buzzkiller:
Some friends of ours--an intelligent, upper-middle-class couple who emigrated from England in the 90s--say they had absolutely no experience with dishwashers before moving to the U.S. and renting an apartment equipped with one. (And I don't just mean they had never had one. I didn't have one till I was 28, but I had seen them used in friends' houses and had a general idea of how they were loaded and used.)

Actually, I cannot judge much about differences between GER and UK, but I would have thought that it would be at least as you said, people at least know about it.

Ulko "no offence meant" maalainen

ETA: completion of train of thought

No worries, I was open to the possibility I'd missed something. [Smile]

Shadow "none taken" Duck

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Lotta Palaver
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quote:
Originally posted by Mama Duck:
All the immigrant families I know are from Mexico and in San Antonio that doesn't really count as immigration so much as relocation.

I know this should be hashed out in another thread but WHAT? [Confused] Since when? I lived in the Dallas area for a number of years and that sure wasn't the opinion there. Not with the people I associated with, anyway!

As for another non-American view toward dishwashers, my in-laws are all from South Africa. There, they don't buy dishwashers, they hire them (and no matter what her age, she's always a "girl" [Mad] But, again, that's another thread!) I imagine the same is true in a lot of other countries where there's huge wage disparities and what we would consider "average" income families can afford to hire servants. I'm sure there's some correlation in this country between the boom of modern appliances and the Civil Rights Movement and not just more women entering the workplace. Both events were happening simultaneously, so it's hard to tell.

How many of you know that the dishwasher was actually invention by a woman? Ironically, it wasn't someone looking to ease her daily drudgery, but she was tired of her servants breaking her fine china. [Roll Eyes]

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Mama Duck
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by belaglik:
I know this should be hashed out in another thread but WHAT? [Confused] Since when? I lived in the Dallas area for a number of years and that sure wasn't the opinion there. Not with the people I associated with, anyway!

First, Dallas isn't San Antonio. San Antonio is a very Spanish city, specifically Mexican Spanish city. It was originally part of Mexico and clearly retains its Spanish origins. Thus newly arrived immigrants have little trouble adjusting to life in San Antonio. Heck, most of the time someone has to tell you if they moved here recently or if they've been here all their lives. The immigration comment certainly wasn't a slam but my apparently poor attempt to demonstrate the nature of immigration and the surrounding culture of our city. Immigrants here usually already have family support systems in place. Thus it's the equavalent of moving from Detroit to Toronto. Yes, there are adjustments and legal hassles but hardly the same as moving from England to Russia.

Yes, I know Dallas has a different take on things than San Antonio. And Houston and Austin have far different cultures as well. This really shouldn't be such a surprised.

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There is no interpersonal problem so big that it can't be solved with a suitably large amount of high explosives. ~ Bufungla

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Niner
Deck the Malls


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I did a little more research on positive pressure environments (for health reasons). Most of the documentation I read specified "slight" changes in pressure, so it was difficult to come up with numbers. However, the few sources I found that did list numbers stated that you want about half a Pascal, and that at greater than a Pascal's difference in pressure, you risk forcing moisture into walls and causing mold damage. Therefore, I calculated based on the max of 1 Pascal pressure difference.

On a door that's 36" wide and 90" tall (hey, it's great for getting sofas through) a 1 Pascal change would result in an extra .42 pounds of force to work against. To get 120 lbs of force holding a door shut (a lot, but still breakable by most people) you would have to have a system that was 24000% out of spec.

As for whether it's *possible*, well of course it is. It's also possible that Mack would accidentally build a firetruck on the 45th floor of the Sears tower, but I'd want some pretty good evidence that this was likely before I'd even entertain humorous employee stories.

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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It's not psi against the door that holds it shut. It's the preasure against the bolt which makes if difficult or impossible to slide. Like I said in my post above, you can effectively keep a door from opening with a couple of pennies becasue of the force placed on the bolt.

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Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
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Niner
Deck the Malls


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I'm not sure how you penny doors, we used to jam them in the gap on the hinge side, nowhere near the bolt.

And if it's not the PSI on the door that's holding it shut, how would anything the AC unit do hold it shut? I have yet to see an AC unit that locks doors as well. And if it's pressure on the bolt, that's going to be so minisculy small that it's probably less than the spring holding the door shut, or the friction of the handle.

ETA: the only way I can think of a penny holding a door shut on the latch side would be based on the fact that smashing the penny thinner would require a lot of force, and/or adding friction also based on the penny's thickness, so I still don't see how even 5 lbs of pressure on a door (not PSI) could hold it shut. Heck, I can have my brother lean against a door and still open it against it, albeit with some force.

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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A couple pennys between the door and the frame it; it causes the door to push the bolt hard against he other side such that the bolt can't be turned.

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Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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Niner
Deck the Malls


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Those devices that mash pennies into ovals with little scenes imprinted on them use about 20 tons of pressure to do so, apparently. That's a lot of pressure a penny can be used for!

Oh, I think I get your message on the pennies - they're jammed between the face of the door and the jamb upon which that rests? I would imagine that the forces involved are pretty high, and that you just get mechanical advantages when jamming them in from the side (and the crush strength of the door would probably matter more at that point).

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callee
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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But even a modern "sealed" house has various outlets which would break the pressure, yes?

1) Any fireplaces? assuming the flu (sp?) is open that would let a serious amount of air in/out. and even if the flu wasn't open, I doubt those things are sealed very well.

2) how many bathrooms? Most houses these days have at least 2, and each one, according to most building codes, has to be vented to the outside.

3) Range over the stove? Most of those have separate vent lines.

4) Laundry room. The dryer also must have its own vent line.

5) The furnace itself. Most modern furnaces come with their own vent lines, both for air in and out. Most central air units use the fan from the furnace unit, so the systems are tie togehter, meaning the air conditioner would necessarily be vented.

6) Attic vents. The main living quarters usually isn't sealed off air tight from the attic, and the attic usually has its own vent.


So that's atleast 6 major vents possible in the average house. Even if the house in question only had half of them, that's still 3 vents. Wouldn't that prevent the pressure from building to the levels we are talking about?

I think we also need to talk about time. I mean, how long would it take an air conditioner to build up that kind of pressure? Maybe someone can run the numbers, but I think the answer would be something like a freaking long time. So, what, did no one in that house exit or enter for all that time? Because everytime they opened the door there'd be a big whoosh of air and the pressure would equalise, right? Then the poor air conditioner would have to start building it up all over again. So how did they figure out that the AC Unit was making those noises? Wouldn't they have had to exit the house and go inspect the unit? And if they exited the house to do that, would the pressure really have the time to build up again in the time it took sparky to arrive? For that matter, as soon as they exited the house to go inspect the unit, wouldn't that have equalised the pressure at that point when they opened the door, meaning that by the time they walked around to the unit it would no longer be facing the tremendous back pressure and hence would be operating just fine and not making noises at all?

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a moment for old friends now estranged, victims of the flux of alliances and changing perceptions. There was something there once, and that something is worth honoring as well. - John Carroll

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Okay so I ran it by my evil twin who happens to be a physics type kind of guy. He says this:

quote:
Interesting problem, a nice Fermi problem, so within an order of magnitude I calculate about an additional 5,000 lbs of air inside the house. Here are my steps (note I did simplify the problem to be a question of force and not torque, within an order of magnitude I feel safe in that simplification; also I guess we are assuming that the door opens in, against the higher air pressure)

1) P=F/A, Let us just think that a force of 100lbs to open a door would be 'difficult' Typical door area ~20ft^2; thus
2) P=100lb/20ft^2 = 5lb/ft^2
3) That is the pressure acting against every surface in the house, so if it is a 10,000 ft^3 house, it's pretty darn small. But since this is a Fermi Problem, that is okay. Let me just assume it's a 1000 ft^2 floor area (thus a height of 10 ft).
4) That assumption means 5000lbs of additional air inside the house.

Such a pressure difference should be very noticeable if true (you would feel an additional 10-20 lbs acting against your body).

Now there's a lot of assuming and guessing in there, but it pretty much comes down to pretty impossible without industrial equipment.

So I retract my defense of this as being plausible or possible.

Beach...and have a nice day...Life!

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Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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Finite Fourier Alchemy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Niner:
However, the few sources I found that did list numbers stated that you want about half a Pascal, and that at greater than a Pascal's difference in pressure, you risk forcing moisture into walls and causing mold damage.

You sure on that? One Pa is 0.00015 psi. That's really really really really small. Meteorlogical conditions can shift air pressure well over 2000 Pa in a single day. Tiny air currents in your house develop local pressure variations of a hundred Pa. The pressure in your house jumps a Pa every time a mouse farts.

Just from being around houses with AC, I know a strong AC unit in a small, sealed house, can develop enough pressure to require a bit of force to open a door, though not enough for an older child or adult in reasonable health to have any trouble with. My lab is at a negative pressure of about 0.1-0.5 psi (?) and the only time I have trouble opening the doors is when my hands are full.

I also find it very unlikely an AC fan or blower is physically capable of a static head above around 0.1 to 1 psi. This is much, much lower than the pressure you are fighting against when you try to open or close your front door on a windy day.

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Finite Fourier Alchemy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
Now there's a lot of assuming and guessing in there, but it pretty much comes down to pretty impossible without industrial equipment.

I dunno . . .

The thing that makes opening a door into a pressurized room difficult isn't so much the pressure acting on the door, I don't think. It's the fact that, when you open the door a crack, the air rushes toward you through that crack, which induces a Bernoulli force (or something similar) on the edge of the door, maybe as much as as a few pounds. Since the force is exerted at the point on the door farthest from the hinge, it exerts quite a lot of torque.

Since opening a door usually only takes you a couple pounds of force, this makes a pretty huge difference. Enough that you might need to get firm footing, or even throw your weight against the door a little.

Just a guess, though.

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Thinking about New England / missing old Japan

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Shadowduck
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
A couple pennys between the door and the frame it; it causes the door to push the bolt hard against he other side such that the bolt can't be turned.

Wouldn't it more likely be pushing the door against the frame, making it difficult to open? I'm finding it hard to picture how it could increase the pressure on the bolt significantly, there's usually a bit of overtravel available in the frame recess the bolt sits in.

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But of course, I could be wrong.

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Niner
Deck the Malls


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Shadowduck, a closed door is held shut in two ways: on the backside, there is the frame, but on the front, only the latch holds it shut. Putting the pennies in between the frame and the door forces that over travel (door play) to be used up, and with a little friction, you might not be able to draw back the bolt.

This would also work on older doors better, where the shiny smooth patina has been worn off the metal and it tends to stick to itself more.

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Shadowduck
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Niner:
Shadowduck, a closed door is held shut in two ways: on the backside, there is the frame, but on the front, only the latch holds it shut. Putting the pennies in between the frame and the door forces that over travel (door play) to be used up, and with a little friction, you might not be able to draw back the bolt.

This would also work on older doors better, where the shiny smooth patina has been worn off the metal and it tends to stick to itself more.

I suppose it depends how close a fit your door is as to whether the door would hit the frame before the bolt overtravel was used up. It was only a passing thought anyway. [Smile]

ETA: I've just realised, I was thinking the pennies went between the side of the door and the frame - if they go between the face of the door and the jamb my posts make no sense at all..!

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Xia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
I refuse to wash my dishes before the dishwasher does -- and I've never needed to. It helps if you have a newer dishwasher.

I don't know how exactly hot the water is in my dishwasher, but it's hotter than I could stand to use when washing by hand. I know that if I open the dishwasher immediately after the cycle ends, the dishes are unpleasantly hot to the touch (which is why I don't do that).

Same here... I've never had a problem with just sticking the dirty dishes right into the dishwasher, unless they had food baked-on and in that case soaking beforehand does away with that.

The water temperature our dishwasher uses is definitely much hotter than could be used when washing dishes by hand. Even after waiting 15 minutes from the end of the cycle, they are still painfully hot to the touch (too hot to hold for more than a few seconds.)

Xia

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Rehcsif
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quote:
Originally posted by Xia:
The water temperature our dishwasher uses is definitely much hotter than could be used when washing dishes by hand. Even after waiting 15 minutes from the end of the cycle, they are still painfully hot to the touch (too hot to hold for more than a few seconds.)

The nitpicker in me has to point out that this conclusion (although I agree with it) doesn't follow. The last part of the cycle is drying, which uses hot air to dry (and heat) the dishes. It would be possible to wash the dishes in cold water, then run them through a dry cycle and they'd still come out very hot. Of course it doesn't normally happen that way.

Most modern (consumer) dishwashers heat the water to at least 140 degrees before washing, which is too hot for most people to stick their hands in for any length of time.

-Tim

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Xia
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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I know that it is drying, I was just giving "even after 15 minutes" as an example of how hot it was. It is also too hot to touch if you stop the dishwasher in the middle of the cycle and try to touch the dishes...

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

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Squishy0405
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My inlaws are immigrants who have lived here for over 20 yrs. Their apartment didn't have one, and I doubt they have used the one they have in their house now. I don't think they know how to use it effictively.
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Toys for big boys.
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We only use the dishwasher on Sundays, after we've finished the roast dinner. We dont pile stuff up in the sink. If there's stuff in there when I'm in the kitchen, I'll wash it up myself. I dont like seeing a full sink.

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Buzzkiller
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quote:
I dont like seeing a full sink.
Nor do I...which is why I put the dirty dishes in the dishwasher until it's filled and ready to run! I grew up without a dishwasher and didn't have one till I was about 30, but BOY am I making up for lost time! Unless we're absolutely not at home mine is run at least once a day, and sometimes two or even three times depending on my (large) family's cooking/eating schedule.
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Lainie
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quote:
Originally posted by Toys for big boys.:
We only use the dishwasher on Sundays, after we've finished the roast dinner. We dont pile stuff up in the sink. If there's stuff in there when I'm in the kitchen, I'll wash it up myself. I dont like seeing a full sink.

I'm not trying to tell you how to do your dishes, but I'm confused about the connection between not using the dishwasher and not filling up the sink. I fill the dishwasher as I go along, so the sink isn't filling up while I'm waiting to run the dishwasher.

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Elwood
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
They like to tell about the first time they used their dishwasher: they loaded the detergent dispenser with liquid dish detergent, and hilarity ensued as mounds of foam escaped from the machine. Since Dawn is clearly marked "Dishwashing Detergent," their mistake really makes sense, doesn't it?
Would you think less of me if I admitted that I tried this once. . . .recently? I just went to bed after suggesting to Mooommmeee that maybe regular dish detergent would work since we were out. The next day the floor was more than ready to be mopped!

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"If I didn't see it and didn't know it was a real news report, I wouldn't believe it. I mean, how nutty can you get?"-Pat Robertson Oct 26, 2006.

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Elwood
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
quote:
Originally posted by Toys for big boys.:
We only use the dishwasher on Sundays, after we've finished the roast dinner. We dont pile stuff up in the sink. If there's stuff in there when I'm in the kitchen, I'll wash it up myself. I dont like seeing a full sink.

I'm not trying to tell you how to do your dishes, but I'm confused about the connection between not using the dishwasher and not filling up the sink. I fill the dishwasher as I go along, so the sink isn't filling up while I'm waiting to run the dishwasher.
My parents actually had more dishes than there was cabinet space. Thus, it was impossible to ever fully unload the dishwasher. You had to use clean dishes out of the dishwasher or cabinets, depending on what you needed and what was put away at the time and put them in the sink when you were done. By the time the sink was good and full, the dishwasher was less full and there would be room in the cabinets for whatever was left.

Looking back it seems like a really bizarre system, but somehow the daily shuffle worked out as simple force of habit. Every once in a while a well-meaning guest would try to put everything away, only to find out that it was simply impossible.

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Posts: 2936 | From: Mean Streets of West Virginia | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Seanette
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quote:
Originally posted by belaglik:
As far as the dishwasher being used for other things, my oven tends to be used for pan storage as I am generally clueless as to how to use the oven and the pans it holds! [Wink] And we won't discuss the science experiment known as my refrigerator! [Eek!]

It's a good idea to check the oven at my place before turning it on, because I usually have pans/pots/larger objects that don't fit in the dish drainer stashed in there to dry (I have a gas oven, and the pilot light works great for drying dishes. It's also terrific for giving bread dough a nice warm place to rise).
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YeeMum
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I got all the way through this just to find the thing I was going to comment on got lost in the thread.

I use ( or will use again as soon as new sink is installed) my dishwasher because the caregiver does NOT do the dishes the way I think they should be done! ( I think that is creepy)

Garbage disposal--NOPE chicken bucket!

I think IMO the OP was trying to show cultural differences ( and perhaps the fact many "non"american" families are more close knit and someone is usually home to take care of the tasks so they never become Large jobs) so no need for a mass washing
ETa they has a y in

Yee-fire away-Mum

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EthanMitchell
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Since my parents dishwasher caught on fire when I was a kid, I have never lived in a house with a dishwasher. My house has no hot water. We heat water on the stove for dishwashing, and so I can tell you with a good deal of precision that you can hand-wash dishes and pots for four people in one tea-kettle's worth of water. BUT...I've also lived in several places where we cold-washed dishes, and that works fine, too. All this paranoia about "household bacteria" in the US is misplaced. To truly heat-sterilize a dish requires either an autoclave, a pressure cooker, or a dishwasher that maintains water at the boiling point for about 15 minutes. And there is no point in such measures. You don't, for example, boil your hands after you go to the bathroom. (And only very recently have people started using antibacterial soaps, which are a terrible idea). All that you can accomplish by turning your house into a 'clean room' is weakening your immune system.
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Squishy0405
Wii Wiish You A Merry Chriistmas


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I disagree with the antibacterial soap being useless. Overuse-true. Regular use has been shown to cut down risk of infection and I use the hand gel on a regular basis since I have a baby. I have slacked a little though with shopping carts [Frown]

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EthanMitchell
Deck the Malls


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"I have slacked a little though with shopping carts"

Huh? I don't get it. Do you feel that you need to sterilize your hands after using a shopping cart? I've never heard of this.

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Squishy0405
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No. I was referring to putting my son in one. Most people use the covers for infants. I don't have one so I usually squirt some sanitizer and rub it on the parts in front that he will touch but I have forgotten my little bottle a couple of times. [Smile]

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"Fate is like a strange, unpopular resturant, filled with odd waiters who bring you things you never ask for and don't always like."-Lemony Snicket

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Four Kitties
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Squishy, do you read the board through the Active Topics page? Because from there, it appeared that you were trying to put your son in the dishwasher. [lol]

Four Kitties

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