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Author Topic: Immigrants Don't Use Dishwashers?
VeebleFetzer
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quote:
Originally posted by Bach_girl:
quote:
Originally posted by VeebleFetzer:
So their house was airtight? Were they living in a submarine?

Good question. I was not aware that keeping windows/doors open while running the AC was the thing to do. I do it all the time and my house has not have any pressure problems that I am aware of.
That’s what I was thinking. Domestic air conditioning is practically unknown in the UK, but in those commercial and office buildings I know that have it, you can’t open the windows. It’s my understanding that air conditioning generally works by recirculating the air within the building, continually chilling it. Michael Cole’s post suggests a system that sucks in air from the outside, cools it to the required temperature all in one go, and then blasts it into the house in competition with air coming through open windows – essentially, it’s trying to cool the whole of the Earth’s atmosphere – which is a trifle ambitious for a domestic appliance, and liable to have some impact on the owner’s electricity bill.

I must emphasise that I’m not doubting Michael’s veracity – I have no reason to doubt that the story he gave us is just as it was told to him. I’m more inclined to suspect that his electrician friend is:
a) indulging in a spot of harmless exaggeration for the sake of humour (did he mention drop-bears at all?)
or b) not the go-to person for a new AC unit, since from his description, what he’s installed there sounds less like what most people consider “air conditioning”, and more what is usually thought of as an “industrial air compressor”.

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I'd rather be with you people than the finest people in the world!

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BeachLife
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The story is plausible with the right circumstances. Newer houses, especially in regions with extreme climate, are generally pretty airtight. And it does not have to be 100% airtight to become positively preasured either. Houses do generally have roof vents or something similar to allow for some free exchange of air. This house might have lacked these feature.

The air conditioning unit would almost have to be a window unit or something similar. Window units actually draw some air from the outside and mix it with inside air. A window air conditioner would positively preasurize an air tight room or house.

That said, central air systems generally use a split system in which the inside air which is cooled never meets the outside air which is warmed by the condencing unit as a by product. Though, it is possible that the air intake is in an air tightish basement in which case, the basement would get negatively preasured while the house would be positively preasured. The door to the basement in this case would be difficult to open.

Of couse take that last idea and assume some body designed a system such that the intake was in the garage. If someone tried to enter the house through the garage the door would be difficult to open.

Beach...It's possible with the right design mistakes...Life!

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Shadowduck
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quote:
Originally posted by Towknie:
Dear wife is from Korea, and fell in love with the dishwasher the first time she saw it. The garbage disposal is the last frontier in our house. Korean homes just have a screen trap over the drain, and collect whatever lands in there into special "wet garbage" bags.

She tried the disposal once -- with a potato. Didn't work out to well for us.

Now there's a household appliance I just couldn't get to grips with... Our apartment in Albukwoyky had a waste disposal, which I jammed within two days by trying to dispose of waste (spud peelings) down it. The nice man who came round to fix it told us not to put such things down it as it would jam (duh), so it was never used again - though we did have several conversations along the lines of "just what the fork is it for then?" The toilets in the same apartment used to back up regularly so it could have just been a case of bad plumbing generally; we were perpetually waiting to get the same repairman again and be told it was our fault for putting *ahem* solids down there! [lol]

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But of course, I could be wrong.

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Mama Duck
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Re: air conditioners and pressure problems. I've lived in extreme climates my entire life, I've never heard of this. Not with older houses with older window units or older central unit, new houses with new units or any combination thereof. If you have to open a window for the AC to wrk, it defeats the purpose of the AC.

Shadowduck Are you sure it wasn't a combination of an old appliance and bad plumbing? My disposal can take on anything short of stainless steel and artichoke leaves. Anything else, potato peelings, lemon rinds, egg shells, it stops, scoffs at my pitiful offerings and proceeds to make garbage pate.

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VeebleFetzer
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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
The story is plausible with the right circumstances. …[main body of post omitted for reasons of brevity]

Beach...It's possible with the right design mistakes...Life!

I’ll happily take your word for it, but who would you be more inclined to criticise in these circumstances – the owner/operator, or the designer/installer?

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Troodon
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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I'm no fan of sink garbage-disposals. They clog, because they don't have a screen over them to prevent bits of food from falling in like a regular drain does, but that shouldn't be a problem, since they are built to shred the stuff - the problem is that before turning one on, I have to stick my hand in there and check for any spoons or forks that may have fallen in, which is disgusting, because the thing is full of dirty water and food waste, and also scary in a way. If the disposal somehow turned on, it could cut my hand up pretty badly.

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missiebreathe
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In the British version of Trading Spaces (Is it Changing Rooms? I can't remember.) it seemed like a lot of kitchens were too small for dishwashers, but some had their laundry washer and dryer in the kitchen. That always seemed odd to me, kind of gross. But here in Wisconsin we all have basements, so the laundry rooms are downstairs, out of sight.
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Mad Jay
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I'm an immigrant from Asia, and we didn't have dishwashers when I was growing up. But, after coming to US, I have mostly used the dishwasher for the past 7 years. However, nowdays, I have started washing most of the dishes by hand because it's just too much trouble to load and unload the dishwasher. Nowdays, I soak all the dishes in hot water overnight. In the morning, the dishwasher gets all the pots, pans and the dishes that are hard to clean. Other dishes get rinsed and dried by hand

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Mosherette
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quote:
Originally posted by missiebreathe:
In the British version of Trading Spaces (Is it Changing Rooms? I can't remember.)

I do believe that the phrase you're looking for is "Changing Rooms, the UK TV programme that was named Trading Spaces in the USAn version." [Wink]

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Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave

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Jason Threadslayer
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quote:
Originally posted by missiebreathe:
But here in Wisconsin we all have basements, so the laundry rooms are downstairs, out of sight.

And where you have to carry it downstairs.

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Buzzkiller
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quote:
quote:
But here in Wisconsin we all have basements, so the laundry rooms are downstairs, out of sight.
And where you have to carry it downstairs.
Not if you have a laundry chute. Or teenagers.
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Top Kat
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Here is the Washington Post article that the original post was excerpting:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/07/AR2005100702146.html

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Joostik
The First USA Noel


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We used to have a dishwasher some thirty years ago, so they have been around some time but probably never caught on as much as in America. Probably because many people considered them wasteful, although the newer models supposedly are more economic with water and energy than hand-washing.

Anyway, I haven't got one here in Holland (wanting to buy one, just different financial priorities recently), though we bought one for the family home in Latvia -- which my wife is very content with.

But what puzzled me was -- dishwashers for sterilization? Do you really wash at 100 degree celsius?

Re. Garbage-disposals: when they were first brought on the market, the public was strongly advised not to use them. People at the sewage-treatment plants really don't appreciate the extra waste.

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Rehcsif
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quote:
Originally posted by Troodon:
My family has been in the US 13 years and we never use our dishwasher - it seems a waste, because if the dishes aren't very dirty, it's easier just to rinse them by hand, and if they are very dirty, the dishwasher won't get them clean anyway.

You evidently need a better dishwasher. The only things we ever wash by hand are stuff that's really baked-on and requires a soaking.

ETA: I've heard of people who consider dishwashers "wasteful". I've watched these people wash their dishes by hand. They leave the hot water running the entire 20-30 minutes it takes them to wash/rinse said dishes by hand. Which do you think uses more energy: 20 minutes of hot water running, or a dishwasher cycle?

-Tim

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Rehcsif
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Cole:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lizardking:
[qb] When he got to the house, he found that they couldn't open the door - the owners had kept all windows and doors closed, and the AC had basically pumped in so much air that the house had become pressurised - the AC was starting to fail because it just simply couldn't force any more air into the house.

Uh, AC units don't "force in" air from outside. They take air from inside, cool it, and recirculate it. Somebody sold you a line of bull.

-Tim

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Lainie
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quote:
Originally posted by Rehcsif Mit:
quote:
Originally posted by Troodon:
My family has been in the US 13 years and we never use our dishwasher - it seems a waste, because if the dishes aren't very dirty, it's easier just to rinse them by hand, and if they are very dirty, the dishwasher won't get them clean anyway.

You evidently need a better dishwasher. The only things we ever wash by hand are stuff that's really baked-on and requires a soaking.

-Tim

I refuse to wash my dishes before the dishwasher does -- and I've never needed to. It helps if you have a newer dishwasher.

I don't know how exactly hot the water is in my dishwasher, but it's hotter than I could stand to use when washing by hand. I know that if I open the dishwasher immediately after the cycle ends, the dishes are unpleasantly hot to the touch (which is why I don't do that).

That said, the sanitizing claims that many dishwasher manufacturers make are silly. As Consumer Reports has pointed out, the dishes cease to be sanitized as soon as you open the dishwasher.

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lazerus the duck
The First USA Noel


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The amount of force it would take to pressurise a house even to make a noticeable difference when opening the door would burn out an air conditioner. It is just not possible.

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All the world's a face, And all the men and women merely acne.

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Shadowduck
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Joostik:
But what puzzled me was -- dishwashers for sterilization? Do you really wash at 100 degree celsius?

Oddly enough, my current dishwasher has a button for 'antibacterial rinse' which does pretty much that. And it still gets a AAA efficiency rating due to various sensors which allow to it to wash at the minmum temperature for the minimum time with the minimum water necessary - just don't ask me how it works!

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But of course, I could be wrong.

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Buzzkiller
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Maybe it is a myth perpetuated by dishwasher manufacturers, but it's pretty commonly accepted that both the water temperature and the heat-dry setting of your average dishwasher will kill household bacteria. I did a quick internet search and found any number of references to this (perhaps unsubstantiated) fact. I also ran into several "household hints" about de-germifying such items as kitchen sponges and cutting boards by running them through the dishwasher.
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Rhiandmoi
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quote:
But what puzzled me was -- dishwashers for sterilization? Do you really wash at 100 degree celsius?
I am not really sure what the water temperature is set at where I live currently, but water comes out of the tap steaming, so it is probably close to 180F. Some households it is important to wash the dishes in as hot of water as possible if one family member has viral hepatitis or something or if you have people with weak or compromised immune systems.
ETA: And let them dry in the dishwasher either by residual heat from the steam or using the heat cycle. Water + Bacteria from your hands = unsterilized dishes.

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What is .02 worth?

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Rehcsif
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhiandmoi:
I am not really sure what the water temperature is set at where I live currently, but water comes out of the tap steaming, so it is probably close to 180F.

You can take the temp with a meat thermometer. For households with kids, 120F is the max recommended. Ours was 140F (which is more common) when I checked, so I turned it down as we now have a little guy around. I can't remember the exact data but something like you can get a major burn from 140F water in a few seconds, but 120F would take 30 seconds to a minute.

180F would be ridiculously hot, extremely dangerous, and unnecessarily wasting energy. The severe burns from the infamous McDonalds coffee lawsuit were caused by being exposed to 185-degree coffee for a few seconds.

-Tim

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Buzzkiller:
I also ran into several "household hints" about de-germifying such items as kitchen sponges and cutting boards by running them through the dishwasher.

It'll certainly make them smell better.

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Rhiandmoi
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quote:
Originally posted by Rehcsif Mit:
quote:
Originally posted by Rhiandmoi:
I am not really sure what the water temperature is set at where I live currently, but water comes out of the tap steaming, so it is probably close to 180F.

You can take the temp with a meat thermometer. For households with kids, 120F is the max recommended. Ours was 140F (which is more common) when I checked, so I turned it down as we now have a little guy around. I can't remember the exact data but something like you can get a major burn from 140F water in a few seconds, but 120F would take 30 seconds to a minute.

180F would be ridiculously hot, extremely dangerous, and unnecessarily wasting energy. The severe burns from the infamous McDonalds coffee lawsuit were caused by being exposed to 185-degree coffee for a few seconds.

-Tim

I have no control over how hot the water comes out. We have a community boiler system.

--------------------
I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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Niner
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And unfortunately, some houses have poorly insulated water lines and don't get good hot water very fast anywhere. My parents have a place like this, so the dishwasher they got pre-heats water to 160 F to get it extra clean. Like others have mentioned here, it will also clean just about *anything* off. My little apartment dishwasher wasn't so hot - I'd usually have 3-5 dishes that had to be soaked before handwashing. Of course, living alone I still took a while to fill up the machine before running, even though it was slower.
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GenYus
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Cole:
quote:
Originally posted by Lizardking:
I do know Koreans have an aversion to leaving fans on at night. They think it'll suffocate them by taking the air out of the room. It's no big jump to think Asians are equally leary of dishwashers.

T'was speaking with the sparky across the road from me, and he told me the story of when he installed an air conditioning system for someone. They gave him a call later and told him it was slowing down and making strange noises.

When he got to the house, he found that they couldn't open the door - the owners had kept all windows and doors closed, and the AC had basically pumped in so much air that the house had become pressurised - the AC was starting to fail because it just simply couldn't force any more air into the house.

The owners were not immigrants. Stupidity is not reserved to any culture, class or religion.

If this was in Victoria, I don't think my suggestion below could be the case, but if it was farther north, especially inland, here is a possiblity:

In the American Southwest, we have two types of air conditioning. Refridgeration is the type that most everyone thinks of when talking about AC. But there is a second type called evaporative cooler. Basically, a huge fan sucks air from the outside through a wet pad. The evaporating water cools the air and the cooler air is blown into the house. Since the moist air won't evaporate much water in a second pass, the moist air is pushed out the open windows/doors and new, dry air is pulled in from outside.

This could cause the situation detailed above. The fan is quite strong, if it could cause as little as .05 psi pressure differential, a 30" x 80" door would have 120 pounds of pressure on it.

Another possibility is the increased moisture would cause the wooden door to swell and stick in the frame.

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BeachLife
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quote:
Originally posted by Rehcsif Mit:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Cole:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lizardking:
[qb] When he got to the house, he found that they couldn't open the door - the owners had kept all windows and doors closed, and the AC had basically pumped in so much air that the house had become pressurised - the AC was starting to fail because it just simply couldn't force any more air into the house.

Uh, AC units don't "force in" air from outside. They take air from inside, cool it, and recirculate it. Somebody sold you a line of bull.

-Tim

It entirely depends on the type of airconditioner. Split systems recirculate air as you indicate. But window units generally do not. I found this diagram which shows it better:

How stuff works
Notice how the outside air splits, some of it goes inside, some stays outside.

My post above indicates other possibilities for developing a postive preasure situation.

--------------------
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Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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Rehcsif
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Beach...

I know you're arguing in the theoretical realm. But this is an UL board... You show me a window AC that can do what the OP stated and I'll take you out for a steak [Wink] . It just isn't possible, in the real world. The tiny blowers in those units couldn't even begin to pressurize an entire room, even if it were completely sealed.

Like any UL, I'm gonna need dates, times, places, and evidence that it's not all made up for me to even begin to believe this one.

-Tim

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Niner
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Two things, though, Beachlife.

Window AC units still recirculate more air than they pull in via an outdoor vent. In fact, as it builds up backpressure in the house, it pulls in less because the fan is fighting against air trying to get back out. Most window AC units I've seen don't even have a fan for the vent, they simply have a slip opening so that air is sucked in by the movement of the main recirulating air.

Secondly, as many have pointed out, I doubt there's any AC units of the window size that have enough fan power to make a noticable difference in pressure.

Henry

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BeachLife
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quote:
Originally posted by Niner:
Two things, though, Beachlife.

Window AC units still recirculate more air than they pull in via an outdoor vent. In fact, as it builds up backpressure in the house, it pulls in less because the fan is fighting against air trying to get back out. Most window AC units I've seen don't even have a fan for the vent, they simply have a slip opening so that air is sucked in by the movement of the main recirulating air.

Secondly, as many have pointed out, I doubt there's any AC units of the window size that have enough fan power to make a noticable difference in pressure.

Henry

Okay then let's go at this again. A little reserch always helps.

The American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air Conditioning Engineers recomends that building have positive preasure. Here's a page that explains the whys:

http://healthandenergy.com/indoor_air_pressure.htm Indoor Air Pressure and Ventilation Rate

This is maintained by drawing in outside air and mixing it with interior air. If you google around a bit you can find technical pages on how to test and adjust the preasure.

Now granted that this is more for commercial structures. But it does indicate that a building can hold positive preasure, and that it is common for the air conditioning to create this preasure.

So if commercial air conditoners can create positive preasure and window air conditioners can create postive air preasure, doesn't it make sense that somewhere along the way someone makes an air conditioner for home use that could create postive preasure. As a matter of fact, I'd bet that there are high end home air conditioners that do just that for the health reasons listed on the link above.

So given all that, isn't it possible that someone made a mistake, a wrong adjustment, or maybe installed an overpowered unit and achieved too much positive preasure, at least on one house somewhere in the world?

--------------------
Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

Posts: 12094 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Rehcsif
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
So given all that, isn't it possible that someone made a mistake, a wrong adjustment, or maybe installed an overpowered unit and achieved too much positive preasure, at least on one house somewhere in the world?

Possible? Yes. But which is more likely, the fact that someone installed a system so huge in a tight residential setting that the homeowner came home and couldn't push the door in? Or that the 'sparky' mentioned in the OP was passing on (or creating) an urban legend fashioned from whole cloth?

Do you have any idea how much positive pressure it would take for an average person not to be able to push in the door? Here in Minneapolis, we're home to the Metrodome, where the Twins and Vikings play. It's a huge structure, and the roof is held up solely by positive pressure from within. You're supposed to use the revolving doors to enter/exit but occasionally some schmuk will open a regular door and you can literally be blown outside. But the average home doesn't have an HVAC system this powerful...

-Tim

Posts: 1039 | From: Minneapolis | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
xtargeeter
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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I was in the U.S. military for 20 years and met a lot of brides from other countries. They all used dishwashers as soon as they discovered them.

Going back to the OP, could it be that a male in the family unit, or the family as a whole is a reason for not using it?

Having said that, my wife and her brothers bourght one for their mother, a MO farmwife, and it took several years for her to use it on a regular basis.

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Ulkomaalainen
Jingle Bell Hock


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To talk about Europe again: it is actually very common to have a dishwasher, at least in my surroundings. The usual cycle of someone leaving home would be: own flat, own washing machine, own car, own dishwasher. It's not number one, but the people I know who work and have a family all have one. "Not having heard of one" as mentioned in some post regarding the UK would never happen round here.

I have to admit, that while not precisely wealthy, my friends and family are all what you may probably call "well off", so it's maybe a "class thingy".

As for washing technique. I (having neither job nor family) fill the bassin with hot water and do the washing - no permanent rinsing that way. And that makes it use less water and energy than using a dishwaher, if you do not have enough tableware and cutlery to wait for the dishwasher to fill and have to go only quarter-full.

Ulko "6 plates" maalainen

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Movie characters never make typing mistakes.

Posts: 586 | From: Hamburg, Germany | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Rehcsif Mit:
quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
So given all that, isn't it possible that someone made a mistake, a wrong adjustment, or maybe installed an overpowered unit and achieved too much positive preasure, at least on one house somewhere in the world?

Possible? Yes. But which is more likely, the fact that someone installed a system so huge in a tight residential setting that the homeowner came home and couldn't push the door in? Or that the 'sparky' mentioned in the OP was passing on (or creating) an urban legend fashioned from whole cloth?

Do you have any idea how much positive pressure it would take for an average person not to be able to push in the door? Here in Minneapolis, we're home to the Metrodome, where the Twins and Vikings play. It's a huge structure, and the roof is held up solely by positive pressure from within. You're supposed to use the revolving doors to enter/exit but occasionally some schmuk will open a regular door and you can literally be blown outside. But the average home doesn't have an HVAC system this powerful...

-Tim

Your Metrodome doubtlessly has doors that open out, the positive preasure would work to open the door rather than close it.

Do you have any idea how much preasure it would take to keep the door closed? Why don't you site me on it if you are certain it's not possible.

--------------------
Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

Posts: 12094 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Rehcsif
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
Why don't you site me on it if you are certain it's not possible.

I specifically said it probably is possible. I'd be willing to bet a good sum of money that the story that sparked this was NOT true, however.

-Tim "That steak dinner I mentioned above is still available, too"

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Shadowduck
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Ulkomaalainen:
To talk about Europe again: it is actually very common to have a dishwasher, at least in my surroundings.

They're a lot more common in Germany than the UK - I lived in Germany for a few years and still know people there, that was why I specifically said I was the only person I knew in the UK that had one. Maybe I should have made that clear.

quote:
Originally posted by Ulkomaalainen:
"Not having heard of one" as mentioned in some post regarding the UK would never happen round here.

Maybe I'm missing something, but who said that? You'd be very hard pressed to find anyone here that'd never heard of dishwashers, it's just unusual to actually own one.

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But of course, I could be wrong.

Posts: 858 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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