posted
Forget materials. You have to have some place to put the trash. And by "trash" I mean "every material thing that existed before."
So, where do you pile the houses? Where do you pile the years of stuff you have accumulated?
And Troberg, perhaps if you don't claim to have all the answers, you should reserve judgement of the situation. Your insinuation that people could have been done with this already had they but tried harder is made in glaring ignorance of the situation.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Forget materials. You have to have some place to put the trash. And by "trash" I mean "every material thing that existed before."
So, where do you pile the houses? Where do you pile the years of stuff you have accumulated?
Landfill. Not only would it take care of the trash, it would raise the ground level a bit.
quote:And Troberg, perhaps if you don't claim to have all the answers, you should reserve judgement of the situation. Your insinuation that people could have been done with this already had they but tried harder is made in glaring ignorance of the situation.
Have I said that they would be done by now? I don't think so, and if I have, I apologize. I think things could have been well underway, but a rebuilding project of this size will take time.
Fact remains: other disasters are handled, often without help (when they happen in poor countries) or with little help. It's not impossible, just difficult, but it requires a serious group effort.
Heck, some of the great canals where dug by lots of people with shovels. The ancient Egyptians built the pyramids without steel or machinery. Dozens of war torn nations have pulled themselves up by the boot strap.
You are selling yourself short. Where is the American entrepeneur spirit, where is the spirit than won the west, where is the spirit that won a world war? Where is the spirit I saw before the second Gulf war, when they interviewed some people in the street asking them if they thought you'd win and one answered "Of course we'll win, we are Americans!"?
I've never hidden the fact that there are many things about how USA works that I don't like, but I have always admired your ability to get things done (IMHO, that's where you won the cold war). Yet, suddenly, it's like all the air has gone out of you, and you are about as ready to stand proud and get going again as a used condom.
Don't stumble on the the big picture. It doesn't matter what issue you are working with, the big picture always look crappy. Trust me on that, I've seen enough disastrous projects to know that. Just look for the things that can be done. Nibble away at the edges of that big picture, until it's gone.
It took hundreds of years to build NO, no one expects it to be quick, easy and painless to do it again, but the longer you wait, the longer it will take. So, it may take a some years before it is habitable, and maybe a couple of decades before it's complete. If you think that it's worth it, get to it as soon as possible, because it will not rebuild itself. If not, give up and move elsewhere. Sitting still and wishing for things to be different is the by far worst alternative, as it leads nowhere.
I don't promise a simple and quick solution. Churchill would probably have called it "Blood, sweat and tears", but with good old hard work, grim determination and cooperation, anything is possible (although, sometimes some vaseline may help).
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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quote:Originally posted by Troberg: Well, then it's a good thing that America had a lot of open stores ready and waiting when the European settlers came and built homes all over the continent.
That is truly a stupid comment.
Let's see: The homes in the area where I live (one of the first settled) were built with either the wood from the plentiful forests or from the stones that were available. Neither are free or readily available any longer in the area of New Orleans flooded by Katrina. I'm sure homes in the New Orleans area weren't built from sod, so once the local forests were exhausted, the residents had to haul in lumber from mills. Much of what NO uses comes down the Mississipi or in through the Gulf. What shape is the port in these days?
When earliest settlers first came here were no zoning or building codes that had to be followed. And there weren't so many people that you couldn't go out in the woods or the field to take a crap or piss until you got a hole dug for an outhouse.
Water was available from unpoluted creeks or streams or wells. You didn't need functioning plumbing to survive.
And, in fact, some of the earliest settlers had more to start with than some of these people in New Orleans. At least the settlers had the tools they needed to build houses.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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quote:Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:They have no neighbours, no shops, no power, no water, no place to buy fuel, no jobs...
In other words, they have nothing to lose by trying.
Doesn't it mean they have nothing to gain by trying? From an individual point of view it surely makes much more sense to try to build a new life in whatever place they've been evacuated to. Which I guess is what most are trying to do. That should be doable as individuals or small co-operating groups, and I'm sure even that won't be easy.
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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quote:Originally posted by Troberg: Landfill. Not only would it take care of the trash, it would raise the ground level a bit.
The various governments regulate landfills. The man on the street can't just start one up. And usually we don't allow landfills in flood plains.
quote:Fact remains: other disasters are handled, often without help (when they happen in poor countries) or with little help. It's not impossible, just difficult, but it requires a serious group effort.
It's a lot easier to rebuild in underdeveloped countries than it is in cities of developed countries. Back to zoning and building codes.
And many other countries built after disasters -- manmade or otherwise -- because the government stepped in. Our government stepped in it.* The corruption/ineptitude in FEMA which is not helping but hurting the people who want to rebuild.
quote:Heck, some of the great canals where dug by lots of people with shovels. The ancient Egyptians built the pyramids without steel or machinery. Dozens of war torn nations have pulled themselves up by the boot strap.
Ignore that the governments did those things and pretend they were done by some gung-ho individual. Right. Yeah, like I said, have FEMA buy everyone new boots so they can pull themselve up by those wonderful, all problem solving bootstraps.
quote:You are selling yourself short. Where is the American entrepeneur spirit, where is the spirit than won the west, where is the spirit that won a world war? Where is the spirit I saw before the second Gulf war, when they interviewed some people in the street asking them if they thought you'd win and one answered "Of course we'll win, we are Americans!"?
It's bogged down in laws, rules, regulations, bureaucracy, lack of free and readily available raw materials and covered with trash.
quote:Don't stumble on the the big picture. It doesn't matter what issue you are working with, the big picture always look crappy. Trust me on that, I've seen enough disastrous projects to know that. Just look for the things that can be done. Nibble away at the edges of that big picture, until it's gone.
It took hundreds of years to build NO, no one expects it to be quick, easy and painless to do it again, but the longer you wait, the longer it will take. So, it may take a some years before it is habitable, and maybe a couple of decades before it's complete. If you think that it's worth it, get to it as soon as possible, because it will not rebuild itself. If not, give up and move elsewhere. Sitting still and wishing for things to be different is the by far worst alternative, as it leads nowhere.
I don't promise a simple and quick solution. Churchill would probably have called it "Blood, sweat and tears", but with good old hard work, grim determination and cooperation, anything is possible (although, sometimes some vaseline may help).
Another simplistic response to a complex situation. Your rah-rah attitude comes across as based on an amazing lack of knowledge at best.
*"stepped in it" refers to what one does when one steps in fecses.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Troberg: Where is the American entrepeneur spirit, where is the spirit than won the west, where is the spirit that won a world war? Where is the spirit I saw before the second Gulf war, when they interviewed some people in the street asking them if they thought you'd win and one answered "Of course we'll win, we are Americans!"?
Did you watch the videos hambubba linked to?
The spirit is there. It is being seriously hindered by government red tape.
Posts: 544 | From: Onalaska, WI | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Troberg: Landfill. Not only would it take care of the trash, it would raise the ground level a bit.
The various governments regulate landfills. The man on the street can't just start one up. And usually we don't allow landfills in flood plains.
Besides, in the New Orleans area things don't stay buried. They can't have traditional cemetaries because coffins keep coming up. I'm sure they'd have similar problems with landfills.
Posts: 716 | From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Jan 2006
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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quote:Originally posted by MaxKaladin:
quote:Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:Originally posted by Troberg: Landfill. Not only would it take care of the trash, it would raise the ground level a bit.
The various governments regulate landfills. The man on the street can't just start one up. And usually we don't allow landfills in flood plains.
Besides, in the New Orleans area things don't stay buried. They can't have traditional cemetaries because coffins keep coming up. I'm sure they'd have similar problems with landfills.
And before Troberg comes up with the great idea to burn the debris as would have been done in earlier times: most municipality laws don't allow trash burning anymore, particularly trash that might contain toxins.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Troberg: Landfill. Not only would it take care of the trash, it would raise the ground level a bit.
The various governments regulate landfills. The man on the street can't just start one up. And usually we don't allow landfills in flood plains.
Besides, in the New Orleans area things don't stay buried. They can't have traditional cemetaries because coffins keep coming up. I'm sure they'd have similar problems with landfills.
And before Troberg comes up with the great idea to burn the debris as would have been done in earlier times: most municipality laws don't allow trash burning anymore, particularly trash that might contain toxins.
Add also that the laws are to be strictly followed, even under disaster conditions.
Posts: 544 | From: Onalaska, WI | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:It's a lot easier to rebuild in underdeveloped countries than it is in cities of developed countries. Back to zoning and building codes.
and
quote:It's bogged down in laws, rules, regulations, bureaucracy, lack of free and readily available raw materials and covered with trash.
So, it's better to follow building codes and be homeless than to screw them and at least have a bad house.
Sorry, I don't buy that.
quote:Another simplistic response to a complex situation. Your rah-rah attitude comes across as based on an amazing lack of knowledge at best.
Bullshit. Whatever way you look at it, you will never get more done by doing nothing than by doing something. You can't deny that. That's all the argumentation that's needed, everything else is just clarifications to that statement.
quote:Did you watch the videos hambubba linked to?
Nope, effed up my browser. I'll do it later at another computer.
quote:The spirit is there. It is being seriously hindered by government red tape.
This is something that is completely alien to me. Why are you letting the government stop you? If they are wrong in this (which seems to be just about the only thing people agree on), why should one have a moral obligation to follow their dictates? Change starts with people going against the current dogmas, not by accepting them.
quote:Add also that the laws are to be strictly followed, even under disaster conditions.
I Sweden we have a saying that goes "Nöd går före lag", which roughly translates as "Dire need has priority over law". This is accepted by the legal system. For instance, you can break into your neighbours house if your phone is out and you need to call an ambulance, and get away with it. It's still illegal, but you are not held responsible for it as the circumstances dictated this as the reasonable cause of action. Self defence is another classic example. This entire situation is so extraordinary that it fits this axiom perfectly.
Don't you have similar room for emergency actions?
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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Building codes are put into place, ostensibly, so that the buildings are actually habitable.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Sorry troberg people would have to pay for damages and yes they would be arrested for it. They would spend a night or even a weekend in jail for breaking in someone's elses houses. They could even have prison time for it. You still broke into someone's house.
Add in getting sued by the homeowner for any damages.
It's considered more acceptable to knock on someone's else house. Usually there is about another hundred houses for you to knock on. Most Americans live in cities not the boonies where a small town would only have 100 people.
And there is a thing called electrical wiring. It's very dangerous to mess with. You really are ignorant of the law and facts of Katrina Troberg.
Posts: 320 | From: Birmingham, Alabama | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Troberg, I'm really tempted to ask why, if it's that easy, aren't you flying down to the Gulf Coast to get ahold of a bulldozer and single-handedly help build everyone new homes. After all, you're sitting in Sweden getting frustrated at homeless hurricane victims in America for not following what you see as easy solutions. Perhaps you should come down here and lead by example.
Are you doing anything to help, or are you just sitting at your computer listing unrealistic answers to complex problems? Problems, I might add, about which you have no knowledge or experience.
Here's a tip: When people living in the disaster area are telling you that your solutions are not feasible, perhaps they're right and you should take their answers in consideration.
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sara at home
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Well, Troberg, New Orleans ain't in Sweden so the laws and the way you'd do it in Sweden just doesn't matter.
And, one more time, people aren't doing something about it because the people don't have the money it takes to do it. Why is that so hard to grasp?? The government does have the money, but they'd rather launder it to their best buddies or simply flush it down the toilet than actually accomplish something with it. That's what happens when you have corrupt people at the top of the bureaucracy.
And I suggest that before you continue looking foolish insisting that people just do it, you first look at hambubba's videos, then learn something about New Orleans.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:It's considered more acceptable to knock on someone's else house. Usually there is about another hundred houses for you to knock on. Most Americans live in cities not the boonies where a small town would only have 100 people.
My example was exactly that, an example. We still have large towns here.
Besides, it may still happen. A decade or so ago, there was a big train wreck in the winter, and to keep the injured warm until help arrived, several nearby summer houses that was empty was broken into.
quote:Troberg, I'm really tempted to ask why, if it's that easy, aren't you flying down to the Gulf Coast to get ahold of a bulldozer and single-handedly help build everyone new homes. After all, you're sitting in Sweden getting frustrated at homeless hurricane victims in America for not following what you see as easy solutions. Perhaps you should come down here and lead by example.
If I was to do disaster relief, it would be in a third world country where people are actually dying of they don't get the help.
Besides, have I ever said that it's something that could be done singlehandedly? Have I not stressed the importance of cooperation?
quote:Here's a tip: When people living in the disaster area are telling you that your solutions are not feasible, perhaps they're right and you should take their answers in consideration.
Not when they are talking bullshit. Sure, some of my suggestions are not workable. As you say, I'm not there. I'm sure the people on site is better suited to decide what could be done.
Does that matter? Not at all.
It all boils down to this: Is there something that can be done to improve conditions? Anything at all, even if it just improves thing a tiny bit? If there is, which I'm pretty sure there is, how can you justify not doing that tiny bit?
If it's me or the people who are there who finds that thing that can be improved doesn't matter, the point is that it is there, somewhere.
quote:And, one more time, people aren't doing something about it because the people don't have the money it takes to do it. Why is that so hard to grasp??
Because not everything costs money. How much does it cost to shovel muck out the way? Just grab a shovel and start. Some things can be done.
quote:And I suggest that before you continue looking foolish insisting that people just do it
It's you who are looking foolish by sticking religiously to the statement that you'll get further by doing nothing than by at least trying to do something.
If you want to leave and resettle elsewhere, fine, do so. But if you want to remain, the place needs help. The government is obviously not providing that help. As far as I can see, the only intelligent alternative in that case is to at least give it a shot. Just sitting around will just leave you where you are. You are trying to play with the cards you wish you had, not the ones you actually have.
As I said earlier, it might not work out, but there is only shame in failing if you didn't give it your best shot.
Stop shooting at my suggestions, as they are just suggestions and not meant to be a complete and failsafe plan, and instead answer the very simple question:
What can be gained from doing nothing compared to at least trying to do something?
quote:And there is a thing called electrical wiring. It's very dangerous to mess with.
What are you talking about here? Rebuilding or cleaning up?
Rebuilding: Surely, of all the people left homeless, some must be qualified for electrical work?
Cleaning up: I've worked briefly at power companies, and I can assure you that the power is shut down after a disaster like this. Why would they pump power into a demolished area, especially when doing so would risk the rest of their clients power supply as a fault within NO could shut down other parts of the network until it's fixed. They will not turn on the juice until the network is fixed again.
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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Sara at home
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quote:Originally posted by Troberg: Because not everything costs money. How much does it cost to shovel muck out the way? Just grab a shovel and start. Some things can be done.
Muck?? With a shovel? Get a clue. And quit ignoring the simple fact that there is no way to dispose of the debris because it has to be trucked from the area. Then all the new materials have to be trucked into the area. We aren't talking about putting in a garden.
quote:What can be gained from doing nothing compared to at least trying to do something?
Under normal circumstances, you would be right. But this isn't normal circumstance. It isn't like the people who lived in this area are living on the streets next to their destroyed homes, milling about dull eyed and stunned doing nothing but waiting for govenment aid like we are use to seeing people in disaster camps. They aren't there. The area is deserted because there is no place live, no public services, no food. Is there water? The people have been dispersed throughout the country. You expect people with no money and often no transportatin to move back to an area with no livable housing, no public services/utilities, no stores, no food to start piling rubbish and debris until someone with a truck and a loader comes along to get haul it away? In New Orleans in the summer.
I don't know. Doesn't seem hard for me to grasp why that ain't gonna happen.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
As far as I can see, these people are living in a reality gap.
1. They don't want to relocate. (Those who do are not really part of the issue)
2. To move back, the place must be rebuilt.
3. The government will not rebuild it.
4. The people who want to live there don't rebuild it.
5. So they wait while nothing is happening.
If the government doesn't fix it (and that seems very unlikely at the moment), and they don't do it themselves, it will not get rebuilt, and they can not move back. Yet they wait.
This is what I'm talking about when I say that they are playing with the cards they wish they held instead of the cards they actually hold.
Just waiting will get them nowhere, in fact it's likely that the situation will gradually detoriate. Relocating might provide a solution. Fighting to take back NO might also provide a solution (but, of course, there is no guarantee).
For some reason, they seem to have chosen the only alternative that's a guaranteed failure. Choose one of the other alternatives instead, they at least give a fighting chance.
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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Sara at home
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They are living in reality.
They are wishing for something that may not ever get: to move back to what they consider(ed) their homes -- in some cases for generations.
quote: This is what I'm talking about when I say that they are playing with the cards they wish they held instead of the cards they actually hold.
The are playing with the cards they were delt. They wish they had been delt other cards.
quote:Just waiting will get them nowhere, in fact it's likely that the situation will gradually detoriate.
How much worse can it get?
quote:Relocating might provide a solution. Fighting to take back NO might also provide a solution (but, of course, there is no guarantee)
They have been relocated. They aren't living there. The people who use to live there are scattered across the country though there are areas where more live than in other areas.
The problem is many of them want to go "home". Nothing is being done by the government to make that possible -- like hauling away the debris, getting the services up and running, repairs to the infrastructure.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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They are more or less living on wellfare. That will not last forever, and they need to get back up before that happens.
quote:They have been relocated. They aren't living there. The people who use to live there are scattered across the country though there are areas where more live than in other areas.
I was talking about a permanent relocation. Any other alternative requires that someone rebuilds to work out. If the government don't rebuild and the people don't rebuild, it will not work out. They need to get the government to do it or do it themselves, or it will not be done and the area will remain a disaster area.
Those are the alternatives that have a potential to lead somewhere. Waiting does not.
It may be that it's impossible, but in that case, those who don't relocate are screwed. This lack of decisiveness is putting a lot of people in harm's way.
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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Sara at home
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quote:Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:How much worse can it get?
They are more or less living on wellfare. That will not last forever, and they need to get back up before that happens.
Did you miss that many of these people were more or less living on welfare before Katrina? And many of those who weren't were just scraping by? How do you not get that that's the problem??? NO MONEY and NO EFFECTIVE GOVERNMENT HELP.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Troberg, there is no reason for you to be ignorant of conditions in New Orleans (and the rest of the Gulf Coast, for that matter. It wasn't just one city that was destroyed, it was most of the coastal regions of three states).
Here are some pictures so you can get some understanding of the scope and scale of the issue:
Here are photos of Pascagoula, Mississippi. This summer (nearly one year after the storm), my step-daughter's youth group from our church went down and spent a week helping with the cleanup effort.
People *are* working, Troberg. Good people are giving their all in order to help this area rebuild. People of middling competence, however, are doing whatever they can to obstruct the effort.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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quote:Originally posted by AnglRdr: Here are photos of Pascagoula, Mississippi. This summer (nearly one year after the storm), my step-daughter's youth group from our church went down and spent a week helping with the cleanup effort.
I feel that I have to point out the obvious that when groups like this go into the area to help, there is a lot of coordination, pre-planning and financing that preceeds their arrival so that those volunteers can accomplish something worthwhile and so that they have food, water and a place to live. The just don't jump in the car, drive down and do something....anything.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Aren't the Pascagoula pics from hurricane Ivan damage, August '04? That's how long it takes to clean up, when there is an organized effort to clean up. I made a couple of trips of there last year, and while there was progress, it still looked like they just had a hurricane...
Sad.
-------------------- Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975 Posts: 7942 | From: Louisiana | Registered: Jun 2000
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Sara, yes, there is a *lot* of coordination that goes into such efforts prior to them happening. Our kids all raised the 200-some odd dollars it cost to transport, house, and feed them (they stayed in tents). They also brought all their own tools and supplies.
And Hambubba, these are post-Katrina photos. Our youth pastor said what you said, that it looked like the hurricane had just happened, so evidentally not a lot of progress has been made. Still.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Jackson County Mississippi is 1,043 mi² with 131,420 residents. Wikipedia
quote:To date, more than 5.5 million cubic yards of hurricane debris has been removed by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, city crews, and the County’s contractor.
If my math is correct, that is 40 cubic yards per resident. And they're not even done yet.
I'm wondering why the Army Corps of Engineers has stopped picking up debris if the area's not clear. I doubt Jackson County is the only place the CoE has abandoned. And FEMA's just wonderful.
quote:Families in FEMA housing need to demonstrate every 60 to 90 days what they’re doing to pursue permanent housing.
Does fighting with bureaucrats count as pursuing permanent housing? Does FEMA really think all the affected people want to stay in trailers? People want homes and jobs.
-------------------- "Strength is the capacity to break a chocolate bar into four pieces with your bare hands - and then eat just one of the pieces." Judith Viorst Posts: 1082 | From: Luzern, Switzerland | Registered: Jan 2005
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Link removed due to some people's browsers not being able to display it.
This article describes some of the rebuilding of a New Orleans street, what is going and mentions that rent prices may increase from 225 dollars a month to over 600. That is a huge jump and most residents cannot afford that.
Posts: 320 | From: Birmingham, Alabama | Registered: Jul 2006
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can you fix your link? it messes up the width of the whole page, thanks
-------------------- "Long ago, when we all lived in the forest..." Who are you? Who? Who? Posts: 1587 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Oct 2001
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Tinyurl.com and makeashorterlink.com can help with that. For example, http://tinyurl.com/hel8y = that big one you've got up there. This is excellent for emailing long URLs too, as email programs sometimes add a line break that ruins your hotlink.
Or, for snopes.com posting, you can use the Full Reply Form to post and click on the URL button to put your link behind a word or phrase, such as "Click here"
Didn't know if to make the above a new post but it does show a depressing fact that people don't recieve enough money to buy a new house or even repair their house in New Orleans. I knew the suicide problem was incredibly bad in New Orleans but it is nice to see a bit of news attention to it.
Posts: 320 | From: Birmingham, Alabama | Registered: Jul 2006
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