Boy, I'll sleep better tonight knowing that my government is defending me from Amish men who can be persuaded to sell...gasp!...milk.
-------------------- You fail to consider, for such is the tyranny of fashion, that the swan is not a slim animal... -Jincy Kornhauser, Melinda Falling Posts: 1762 | From: Charleston, West Virginia | Registered: Jul 2005
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So did people not drink cows milk before pasturization came along? Is milk straight from the source that bad for you? Does it cause e. coli, or is that just speculation?
Posts: 106 | From: Mesa, AZ | Registered: Aug 2005
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I can see why this law is in place. Some unknowing consumer buys milk that he assumes is pasturized. He gets sick as a dog or his pregnant wife loses their baby from Listeria poisoning. Then someone is going to get sued. Either the poor Amish guy who gave/sold him the milk or the state for not stopping him from selling it in the first place.
I don't get your points. The law is simple, food for sale must be processed using approved methods. The reasons are pretty obvious I would think.
It is interesting that he is suing because his idea of "sharing" involves the exchange of money. (The undercover agent gave him $2 for the milk.)
Raw milk can be dangerous, hence the requirement for pasteurization. Were not talking about a guy with one or two cows. The cite doesn't list the herd size but says they are shared among 150 families, suggesting there are tens to hundreds of cows. Why would a diary rancher with perhaps a few hundred cows be exempt from food processing and packaging laws?
Edit: Changed food for sale must be in a labeled container. to ... processed by approved methodsPosts: 629 | From: Greenwood, IN | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Richl: So did people not drink cows milk before pasturization came along? Is milk straight from the source that bad for you? Does it cause e. coli, or is that just speculation?
A lot depends on the conditions during milking, as there are many potential contaminants in a dairy barn and on the cow itself. If milking is done in a sanitary way (equipment regularly sanitized, cow's udder and human hands cleaned thoroughly) and the raw milk is stored properly and used promptly, then the only remaining concern is any bugs that may have been in the cow's bloodstream.
-------------------- We also ask that you follow the guidelines above and try not to over-think these guidelines. - the transportation safety administration's permitted and prohibited items air travel list Posts: 240 | From: Kansas | Registered: Oct 2005
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Does milk in Europe get pasteurized (and homogenized)? I ask because when I was studying in Holland, the milk (and all dairy products) tasted far better than anything I've ever had in the U.S. ... which leads me to wonder whether the pasteurization (and homogenation) process is required.
-------------------- "My name is the symbol for my identity and must not be lost." Motto of the Lucy Stone League. Posts: 1815 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jul 2004
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An amish farmer sold $2 worth of raw milk to a guy who KNEW it was raw, talked the farmer into selling it, and PROVIDED the unlabelled container to put it in. It was a sting. I'm sorry but this is a ridiculous use of government power IMHO. We're not talking about someone mislabelling food and marketing it, we're talking about a guy standing on his farm and some stranger walks up and says hey sell me some milk. If you think this is an appropriate subject for governmental intervention then our difference is probably on an axiomatic level so debate seems pointless.
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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As a resident of Ohio, I would be happy to provide, to anyone who wishes to PM me, a partial list of things that government funds could better be spent on than setting up a sting to catch an Amish farmer in Holmes county giving away unpasteurized milk.
That's what he did, according to the account: the man asked Stutzman for milk, and despite misgivings, Stutzman gave him some. Then the man gave Stutzman $2. There is no indication that Stutzman asked the man for money or offered to sell milk to him.
quote:Rainmom said: I can see why this law is in place. Some unknowing consumer buys milk that he assumes is pasturized.
This particular sting did not catch, and was not designed to catch, someone selling raw milk to an unknowing consumer. It was designed to trick a farmer into giving milk to a cop who knew it was not pasteurized.
quote:jimmy101 said: I don't get your points. The law is simple, food for sale must be processed using approved methods.
Read the article. The food was not for sale.
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DemonWolf
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quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis: An amish farmer sold $2 worth of raw milk to a guy who KNEW it was raw, talked the farmer into selling it, and PROVIDED the unlabelled container to put it in.
Sounds like entrapment to me.
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posted
Lydia, I was pondering the same question you posed. When I was visiting relatives in Ireland, my uncle who owns some cows milked them in the morning. We had fresh milk and cream which was scraped off the top of the milk. It was the best milk I ever tasted. He used a pumping machine that attached to the cows utters but, I would suspect any pasturization would be done by the company that sells the milk and not the farmer?
Posts: 106 | From: Mesa, AZ | Registered: Aug 2005
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Hello, folks, In reading this thread, someone asked if drinking raw milk can harm you. If it comes from diseased cows, yes, indeed, it can. My grandmother's family of father, mother, four girls and two boys all contracted tuberculosis that passed from the cattle into the unpasteurized milk, which they drank. My grandmother lost her mother, three sisters and one brother. Her oldest sister had married and was out of the house when this happened so she was spared. The herd had to be destroyed and her father was ruined; though he survived and lived with the married daughter, becoming the town drunk. My grandmother and her sole surviving brother were sent to be raised by their uncles' families. If the Amish have their herds inspected and the animals are healthy, they may be able to receive permission to sell the milk. However, if the Amish who lived in my hometown in upstate NY are any indication, animal care is not a top priority. I'll stick with the pasteurized milk for now, though I really wish the government would also crack down on bovine growth hormone overusage, too.
-------------------- Time is a measure of change---Thomas Aquinas, 13th century Posts: 7 | From: Manassas, VA | Registered: Feb 2006
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There is at least one dairy farmer in the Mat-Su Valley who will provide raw milk and raw milk products to customers as a dividend for investment in the animal. This is some sort of end-run around the law. I can assure you that no one is being "fooled" into buying raw milk - they go to this farmer because they want raw milk.
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guruwan2b
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I grew up having fresh milk at my grandmother's, along with fresh cream and homemade butter. The Amish guy was milking cows for milk for his community. I would call it entrapment, too.
Kim
-------------------- Too much of this navel gazing and we'll disappear up our own arses. Danvers Carew Posts: 7465 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Oct 2001
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Milk bought in stores is homogenized and pasteurized. I am 99.9% certain I can walk down the street and buy milk that is not pasteurized from the farmer who advertises fresh milk, eggs, and seasonal vegetables.
Milk tastes different here. There are those who would say it is because of the lack of bovine growth hormones, and other additions.
-------------------- "Strength is the capacity to break a chocolate bar into four pieces with your bare hands - and then eat just one of the pieces." Judith Viorst Posts: 1082 | From: Luzern, Switzerland | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Richl: So did people not drink cows milk before pasturization came along? Is milk straight from the source that bad for you? Does it cause e. coli, or is that just speculation?
Typhoid; typhus; undulant fever; lots of diseases are spread through drinking unpasteurized milk. Until modern times, drinking MILK per se was relatively rare; milk was used in cooking, and processed into cheese, yogurt, etc., but not widely drunk as a beverage.
(It is part of family lore about how my grandmother's brother nearly died of typhoid.)
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Richl, I have no idea who does the pasteurization. I'm not sure what it entails. But you're probably right, it's probably the seller (to the consumer) that does that.
Die Capacitrix, thanks for clarifying. I didn't think about those other things that could affect the taste.
-------------------- "My name is the symbol for my identity and must not be lost." Motto of the Lucy Stone League. Posts: 1815 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:The process of pasteurization was named after Louis Pasteur who discovered that spoilage organisms could be inactivated in wine by applying heat at temperatures below its boiling point. The process was later applied to milk and remains the most important operation in the processing of milk.
quote:Milk is an oil-in-water emulsion, with the fat globules dispersed in a continuous skimmilk phase. If raw milk were left to stand, however, the fat would rise and form a cream layer. Homogenization is a mechanical treatment of the fat globules in milk brought about by passing milk under high pressure through a tiny orifice, which results in a decrease in the average diameter and an increase in number and surface area, of the fat globules. The net result, from a practical view, is a much reduced tendency for creaming of fat globules.
Both are performed by the milk processor, which buys milk from dairy farms, processes and containerizes it, and sells it stores which sell it to end users.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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Milk taste different from what the cows consume, ask any dairy farmer that had his herd get into a patch of wild onions. And every now and then I swear the milk that I bought at the store smells of Silage.
Posts: 283 | From: Richmond, Virginia | Registered: Jan 2006
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My grandparents and an aunt and uncle are dairy farmers in Wisconsin. In addition to the pasteurization that has already been mentioned, there are strict rules about sanitization of the milking room and milking equipment. As I understand it the rules are slightly different if you want your milk to be certified "Grade A" (the milk you drink) or "Grade B" (can only be used for making cheese and such).
As for milk tasting different id different places, I swear milk tastes better to me in Wisconsin than other parts of the country. I don't know if it's a freshness thing, or if it's just all in my head, or if it's maybe even the way it's packaged (It's the only place I've been where you can buy milk in plastic bags rather than jugs or cartons. You drop the bag into a special pitcher, and cut open one corner).
-------------------- "Unseasonable is an odd word to begin with. It sounds like it's describing something that it's impossible to sprinkle pepper on." -- Nonny Posts: 5483 | From: Just south of Folsom Prison, CA | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by guruwan2b: I grew up having fresh milk at my grandmother's, along with fresh cream and homemade butter. The Amish guy was milking cows for milk for his community. I would call it entrapment, too.
Kim
He was selling milk, not giving it away. He must have known the law. If he didn't he has no business being in business and the minute you put a pricetag on a product you are in business.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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Sara at home
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quote:Originally posted by Rainmom: Kinda OT, but organic milk tastes very different from non-organic milk. Non-organic skim milk also has a weird blue tinge. yuck
I'll go OT with you. My son buys California produced non-homogenized organic milk in a bottle. He was never a milk drinker, he loves that stuff. He hasn't found anything he likes better. (I didn't like it that much.) I bought Pennsylvania produced homogenized organic milk in a bottle. I thought it tasted like barnyards smell. I didn't try the raw milk which may be sold in PA provided the producer is licenced. I finally settled on a supermarket brand organic milk sold in a carton. However, I accidently got a carton of non-fat organic milk and was shocked at the color. It was white and it looked like milk! And it tasted good.
I think organic milk tastes like milk I drank when I was a kid. All these years I thought the difference was my aging taste buds. Now I believe it is the something in the production process. The hormones?
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by guruwan2b: I grew up having fresh milk at my grandmother's, along with fresh cream and homemade butter. The Amish guy was milking cows for milk for his community. I would call it entrapment, too.
Kim
He was selling milk, not giving it away. He must have known the law. If he didn't he has no business being in business and the minute you put a pricetag on a product you are in business.
From the article:
quote:Last September, a man came to Stutzman's weathered, two-story farmhouse, located in a pastoral region in northeast Ohio that has the world's largest Amish settlement. The man asked for milk.
Stutzman was leery, but agreed to fill up the man's plastic container from a 250-gallon stainless steel tank in the milkhouse.
After the creamy white, unpasteurized milk flowed into the container, the man, an undercover agent from the Ohio Department of Agriculture, gave Stutzman two dollars and left.
Where in that account did he put a price tag on the milk? Where, in fact, did he express any interest in selling the milk to anyone outside the perfectly legal herd share agreement he has made with members of his community?
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Richl: So did people not drink cows milk before pasturization came along? Is milk straight from the source that bad for you? Does it cause e. coli, or is that just speculation?
Typhoid; typhus; undulant fever; lots of diseases are spread through drinking unpasteurized milk. Until modern times, drinking MILK per se was relatively rare; milk was used in cooking, and processed into cheese, yogurt, etc., but not widely drunk as a beverage.
There's lots of good info in the Wiki on unpasteurized milk.
In Canada it is illegal to sell or give away unpasteurized milk. It's illegal in about half of the states.
Pasteurization was invented for a reason -- there are lots of very nasty diseases that can be contracted from raw milk. (such as salmonellosis, brucellosis, tuberculosis, e. coli, and campylobacteriosis.) And people give this stuff to kids.
Last fall 18 people became ill in Oregon and Washington from drinking raw milk from an unlicensed dairy. They contracted the nasty type of E. coli. 12 of the victims were kids. At least 4 kids were hospitalized. The dairy denied that it was selling milk, but admitted that there was a "cow sharing" arrangement.
From the Washington State Dept. of Agriculture report:
quote:E. coli O157:H7 is a virulent strain of bacteria that may live inside a cow without any outward signs of illness. The bacteria can be transmitted intermittently in the animal's milk and feces to cause serious illness in human beings.
Based on the test results, the WSDA has conclusively determined that Dee Creek Farm is the source of the E. coli outbreak.
It is legal to sell raw milk in Washington if the dairy is licensed and the product is appropriately labeled.
From the OP -- I'm guessing there was a reason for the sting operation in the first place.
quote:Originally posted by Lainie: Where in that account did he put a price tag on the milk?
The article says: "State officials said they sent the agent to his farm because they received a tip from an anonymous neighbor about raw milk sales." The article doesn't say that they negotiated a price, but Stutzman did take the money.
In any case, the article also says this: "You can't just give milk away to someone other than yourself. It's a violation of the law," said LeeAnne Mizer, spokeswoman for the department."
quote:Where, in fact, did he express any interest in selling the milk to anyone outside the perfectly legal herd share agreement he has made with members of his community?
If by perfectly legal, you mean exploiting a loophole, then I guess it all depends on whether you think the neighbor's tip about milk sales, plus his apparent sale to an undercover officer add up to ongoing illegal milk sales.
quote:Originally posted by Lainie: Where in that account did he put a price tag on the milk?
The article says: "State officials said they sent the agent to his farm because they received a tip from an anonymous neighbor about raw milk sales." The article doesn't say that they negotiated a price, but Stutzman did take the money.
In any case, the article also says this: "You can't just give milk away to someone other than yourself. It's a violation of the law," said LeeAnne Mizer, spokeswoman for the department."
A violation that wouldn't have occurred if it weren't for this sting. I understand that sting operations may be necessary in some cases, but I don't think it was even close to justified in this instance, especially if the only reason behind it was a tip from one anonymous neighbor.
quote:
quote:Where, in fact, did he express any interest in selling the milk to anyone outside the perfectly legal herd share agreement he has made with members of his community?
If by perfectly legal, you mean exploiting a loophole, then I guess it all depends on whether you think the neighbor's tip about milk sales, plus his apparent sale to an undercover officer add up to ongoing illegal milk sales.
If there's a loophole that allows herd sharing agreements, then yes, such agreements are legal. That's what "loophole" means. Maybe the authorities should focus their efforts on closing the loophole.
I don't know whether the neighbor's tip amounts to anything. I don't know if the neighbor is telling the truth. I don't even know if this anonymous tipster is really a neighbor. You don't know any of those things, either, and apparently neither do the cops.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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Nobody is telling him he can't share his milk with others. They're telling him he can't share unpasturized milk with others. If he pasturizes the milk, he can share it all he wants. As far as I'm concerned, he should have to follow the same laws as everyone else. I don't think that religious groups should be exempt from the law because of their beliefs.
Posts: 716 | From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Jan 2006
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When I lived in Minnesota, we bought raw milk from a dairy down the road from where we lived. We would take empty gallon-sized mayonnaise jugs and scoop the milk out of the holding tanks the milkers deposited the fresh squeezed milk into.
Coupled with fitting all of those kids and 3 adults into a Volkswagen minibus with iffy brakes for trips up to the Boundary Waters for a little winter camping, and it amazes me that all of my siblings and cousins lived through childhood.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by MaxKaladin: Nobody is telling him he can't share his milk with others. They're telling him he can't share unpasturized milk with others. If he pasturizes the milk, he can share it all he wants. As far as I'm concerned, he should have to follow the same laws as everyone else. I don't think that religious groups should be exempt from the law because of their beliefs.
Under current law, he can share his milk with others, through the herd sharing agreement. The only evidence in the OP article that he was trying to do any more than that before the sting occurred was an anonymous tip from one of Stutzman's neighbors.
I agree that he shouldn't have given the milk to the guy who came and asked for it -- not only because it's outside the herd-sharing agreement, but because he was clearly being set up. I don't think the sting was an appropriate use of law enforcement resources.
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Sara at home
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quote: Young's dairy, the last remaining raw-milk dairy, stopped selling raw milk in January 2003 when a recent outbreak of salmonella sickened 47, 16 of whom worked at the dairy. The strain originated elsewhere in the state and officials could not positively attribute the problem to Young's. Nevertheless, the state put considerable pressure on the dairy (threatening to take away their Grade A license and close down the pasteurized portion of their business) which then closed down the raw milk portion of their operation.
The outbreak and subsequent decision by the dairy came just a week after the Ohio Farm Bureau Federation voted to support an effort aimed at permitting more people to sell raw milk. The majority of the more than 400 delegates to the group's annual meetings, all active or retired farmers from across the state, said that anyone who wants to should be given a licence to sell raw milk. Then came the incident at Young's Dairy. Coincidence? We think not.
What are they saying? That "the State" deliberately tainted the raw milk at that farm (or whereever) and deliberately got 47 people sick with Salmonella just so they would have a good excuse not to allow the sale of raw milk? Sounds terribly conspiracy theory-ish.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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Sara at home
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quote:Originally posted by Christie: From Sara's link:
quote: Young's dairy, the last remaining raw-milk dairy, stopped selling raw milk in January 2003 when a recent outbreak of salmonella sickened 47, 16 of whom worked at the dairy. The strain originated elsewhere in the state and officials could not positively attribute the problem to Young's. Nevertheless, the state put considerable pressure on the dairy (threatening to take away their Grade A license and close down the pasteurized portion of their business) which then closed down the raw milk portion of their operation.
The outbreak and subsequent decision by the dairy came just a week after the Ohio Farm Bureau Federation voted to support an effort aimed at permitting more people to sell raw milk. The majority of the more than 400 delegates to the group's annual meetings, all active or retired farmers from across the state, said that anyone who wants to should be given a licence to sell raw milk. Then came the incident at Young's Dairy. Coincidence? We think not.
What are they saying? That "the State" deliberately tainted the raw milk at that farm (or whereever) and deliberately got 47 people sick with Salmonella just so they would have a good excuse not to allow the sale of raw milk? Sounds terribly conspiracy theory-ish.
I almost put a tin foil hat warning up but decided not to. I thought the same thing you did but decided that they quite likely meant someone in the milk selling industry, not "the State". Maybe I should look for more about it....
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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