posted
I read on a youth-worker-related message board that many insurance companies are "ruling out" 15 passenger vans. (I guess that means they won't insure them?) We don't have one at our church so it's not a problem for me, but the post quoted some "facts" that sounded fishy, especially the one I've bolded.
quote: Here is a sample of the findings that has schools and churches dumping them like hot potatoes:
The National Highway Traffic Safety admin. has shown that 15 passenger vans have a rollover risk that increases dramatically with the number of occupants. With 10 or more they have a rollover rate in single car crashes of 3X the normal rate.
Federal law now prohibits the purchase of new 15 passenger vans for the school related transport of high school age and younger students.
Ford excludes them from their internal rollover tests because they know they won't pass.
Some insurance companies stipulate the removal of the rear seat or won't cover them at all.
Anyone know about these things?
-------------------- I love dairy! Does that mean I can't be a vegan? Posts: 1569 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Dec 2003
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
15 passenger vans All I know about them, is that if the extra seat is installed the driver has to have a special license. More
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
quote:The newly released NHTSA research reinforces the fact that 15-passenger vans have a rollover risk that increases dramatically as the number of occupants increases to full capacity. In fact, the likelihood of a rollover when a van is fully loaded is about five times greater than when the vehicle contains only a driver. While an increased likelihood of rollover is present for other types of fully loaded passenger vehicles, it is most pronounced for 15-passenger vans.
quote:Ford Motor Co., bowing to pressure from federal regulators and safety advocates, will begin equipping its 15-passenger vans with electronic anti-rollover technology in time for the 2006 model year...Ford dominates the large passenger van market, with more than 50 percent of sales.
The source of the bolded quote may be due to a lawsuit which ford seettled out of court. Ford Settles Van Rollover Suit[
quote:Attorney James Lowe of Cleveland, representing the victims, had demand that Ford turn over records of safety tests it had conducted on the vans but Ford denied it had any such data. Lowe claimed the company was deliberately concealing evidence showing the large vans, commonly used by schools and churches, are prone to roll over.
U.S. District Judge Robert Gettleman of Chicago ordered the company to turn over the safety records and gave Ford attorneys a tongue-lashing when they repeated the claim that no such records existed.
-------------------- The plural of "anecdote" is not "data." Posts: 4255 | From: Sacramento, CA | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Thanks rhi. I can't watch the video now, I'm at work on dial-up. But I'll watch it from home tonight and send it along to the guy on the other MB.
I rented one in 2001 in Oklahoma City on a church trip, with all 15 seats intact, and I didn't need a special license. They even said my husband could drive it without seeing his license (because I guess your spouse can drive your rental car). So maybe that law is new - or at least it wasn't on the books in Oklahoma then.
Edit: thank you Kathy, also!
-------------------- I love dairy! Does that mean I can't be a vegan? Posts: 1569 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I used to work at a group home for girls, and they had a 15-passenger van that I was allowed to drive without any special license credentials. As I understand it, that is the largest number of passengers a person is allowed to transport without a CDL of some sort.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
The NHTSA also found that the electronic stability control found on GM vans make them a whole lot safer. Ford is getting ESC next year or the year after. I always liked the GM vans better because they actually extended the wheelbase, rather than just tacking on length after the back wheels like Ford and Dodge did. That made the GM vans handle and ride a bit better even without the ESC.
-------------------- "I've argued in front of every judge in this state, often as a lawyer." Posts: 1021 | From: Northwest Indiana | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by AnglRdr: I used to work at a group home for girls, and they had a 15-passenger van that I was allowed to drive without any special license credentials. As I understand it, that is the largest number of passengers a person is allowed to transport without a CDL of some sort.
And this, IMHO, is why there are so many rollovers. I've been driving 15 passenger vans now for 14 years, logged probably close to 50,000 miles and have never had a problem. Why? Because I also have a CDL and I know how to drive a larger, top-heavy vehicle. The law allows anyone to get behind the wheel of these vans without a CDL. So, Joe Schmo gets into one and thinks he can drive it like a regular vehicle, making quick turns and fast lane change and guess what? He rolls the van. My church's insurance company has just banned our using 15 passenger vans which majorly sucks and is going to cause a little difficulty with transportation this summer. Here's the kicker: 12 passenger vans? Just fine! There is only about a 4 or 5 feet difference between the 12 and 15 passenger vans. So, here is my prediction: 12 passenger vans will begin to be rented instead of 15 passenger vans. You will still have the same inexperienced drivers getting behind the wheel and there will be a dramatic increase in 12 passenger van rollovers. That's my prediction. We'll see what happens.
Edited: Anglrdr, I didn't mean to imply that you were a bad driver...sorry if you got offended!
-------------------- I can't complain, but sometimes I still do. - Joe Walsh Posts: 801 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Jan 2003
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Bulldon
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
there was an accident a few years back here in maine involving a 15 passenger van and worker driving on a logging road. the van was filled and overturned and family member were suing i believe GM. it was right after that i started hearing about the restricted use of the vans. specifically at the university they could not fill the vans to capacity because of the insurance restrictions.
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My friend Scott was part of a youth group out in DeKalb, Ill., 3 years ago when the group's 15 passenger van flipped over. He was wearing a safety belt, but some others weren't. Some were thrown from the vehicle, and Scott got out of the car to help the others. He hit his head on the roof of the van, and when the paramedics came on the scene, Scott realized that he could feel some extra lumps on the back of his neck. He broke his neck due to the hit on the head, and he was the worst injured of the bunch.
He's fine now, and still helps out with the youth group.
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posted
I seem to rember the same thing about 12 passager van about 10 years ago. The problem is the extra wieght above the wheels raises the center of gravity. This makes it easier to roll.
Add 1800 pounds load to any car, truck, or van and see if it corners or any other quick emergancy type manuvers as well as if it did not carry any extra wieght.
Posts: 1152 | From: Somewere | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by defrostmode: Well Heavy B... I've never gotten a CDL, never took any driving classes, never did anything more than use my brain and my ability to drive.
oh, I also have never been in any vehicle accident (when I was driving).
It doesn't take a cdl... just some common sense.
Defrost, you are working with a sample size of one. That is considered to be statistically insignificant. When you look at a larger sample size it's readily apparnt that there are significant differences in handling these vehicles with their higher center of gravity.
You may be the 1 in 2, 1 in 5, or 1 in 100 that can handle it without any conscious effort or thought. You're an instinctly perfect driver.
For the rest of us, it's important to know that they do handle differently and that accidents with these vans usually result in crippling injuries or death.
Shamrock
-------------------- Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. Posts: 891 | From: New England | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I guess you're right, Shamrock (except the perfect driver part. I'm not THAT good). I do realize that they handle differently, but it just comes naturally (to me) when something handles differently you must drive differently... Guess I -ASS-umed it was that way for everyone and we all know what happens when you do that... Thanks for pointing that out!
posted
My mother in law has one of those Ford 15 passanger vans, with the seats removed except for driver and one passanger -- it's used to transport field dogs --9 of them, in their crates with all the equiptment. Thank heavens she decided years ago that she could not drive the thing -- leaves all the driving to my Husband who used to drive an Ambulance.
I hate trvelling in that thing, and I hate the drivers in little teeny cars who think we can stop fast when they want to cut us off on the highway, at night, in the rain, going down the side of the Mountain. I sincerly hope those people never try to drive one.
posted
I've had two jobs which required me to drive the bigs white vans. One was working with a school districts television station. The back had no seats and only 1 student could ride with me in the passenger seat.
For the other I was working for a University. In the past year the University started a new policy where only 11 people - including the driver are permitted to ride in the large vans. The vans are also not permitted to be driven more than 30 minutes away from the campus.
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