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Author Topic: 'Ex-Gays' Seek a Say in Schools
AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Taking offense at something is an emotional reaction.

Emotional reactions are choices.

You choose to take offense to something or not.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Spooky Cactus
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Taking offense at something is an emotional reaction.

Emotional reactions are choices.

You choose to take offense to something or not.

Emotional reactions are not choices. If something makes you happy, you do not choose to be made happy, you just are. You don't decide whether or not to laugh at a joke (although you can stop yourself if you concentrate). I'm sure we'd all love it if you could just choose not to get irritated by the sound of flies buzzing or your family members' annoying habits, but you can't.

You can choose whether or not to thwack said family member round the head, but you can't choose whether you get annoyed. Emotional reactions are not choices. Non-reflexive physical actions are.

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'When the world is dead and gone, we will still be Rocking On!' (J.P.McCartney)

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Spooky Cactus:
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Taking offense at something is an emotional reaction.

Emotional reactions are choices.

You choose to take offense to something or not.

Emotional reactions are not choices. If something makes you happy, you do not choose to be made happy, you just are. You don't decide whether or not to laugh at a joke (although you can stop yourself if you concentrate). I'm sure we'd all love it if you could just choose not to get irritated by the sound of flies buzzing or your family members' annoying habits, but you can't.

You can choose whether or not to thwack said family member round the head, but you can't choose whether you get annoyed. Emotional reactions are not choices. Non-reflexive physical actions are.

Eh...I disagree. You can absolutely choose whether to allow yourself to be annoyed at something a family member does. You can choose to be irritated or not by flies buzzing about. You can choose to be angry. You can choose to be happy.

[ETA: I should note that these choices exist for those who are not dealing with mental illnesses. A person who is experiencing clinical depression often loses the ability to control emotional reactions, for example.]

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I usually agree with AnglRdr, but not today. How can you choose to be happy if someone you love has just died? How can you choose not to be disgusted when someone uses the N-word? How can you choose not to be nauseated at what Ann Coulter has to say? You can choose how you respond to that visceral reaction, but you cannot choose not to have it, unless you consciously train yourself, and I'm not sure this is a good idea.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Please understand that I am not saying that negative emotions are necessarily inappropriate. It is "right" to respond with sadness at the death of a loved one. It is "right" to be angry with people who have treated you badly.

Perhaps I have some working through of my theory/WAG here to do...

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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And I agree that is is possible to train oneself to respond differently. I think, for instance, it would be possible to train myself not to feel guilty about the deaths of animals in order to take up eating meat again. But I'm not sure that doing so is necessarily a good thing to do. It is partly because people are offended by, for instance, racial slurs, that others avoid them, isn't it? Or would they be meaningless if everyone trained themselves out of their responses? Or are they just symptoms of deeper attitudes?

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
I usually agree with AnglRdr, but not today. How can you choose to be happy if someone you love has just died?

Depends on context. If you believe strongly that the person is now in a much better place for having shuffled off this mortal coil, then it's certainly possible.
quote:
How can you choose not to be disgusted when someone uses the N-word?
Again, it depends on context. When my BIL uses it in reference to his boyz, I'm not offended.
quote:
How can you choose not to be nauseated at what Ann Coulter has to say?
You've got me on this one. I thing Dramamine and Bonine should do product placements.

Four Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Perhaps I have just taken that whole "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me" thing too seriously.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I think I actually see the words as symptomatic of the attitudes that also express themselves in more immediately dangerous ways (which is why 4K's second example is not disgusting), like violence, or legislation. If hate speech were simply and solely speech, then I think AnglRdr's solution would be the right one.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Cobra4J
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by Sister Ray:
Nearly *everything* is a mix of nature/nurture. Saying being gay is a mix is not very profound. [QB]

If "teh gay" is not 100% genetic, that still doesn't make it right to say it is harmful...

Sister "the person downstairs said that to me once..." Ray

I wasn't trying to be profound sister, just honest. Now, you better watch yourself. What you have just said could be interpretted as you may be agreeing with me; that homosexual desire is a combination of nature and nurture. You run the risk of being labeled an intolerant, bigot, pig monster who makes threats.

I don't think having a "gay impulse" in itself is harmful, whether it's from nature, nurture, choice, or a combination of all 3. I have simply read some reports that say homosexual men are more likely to suffer physical consequences, probably because of their behavior, and many people who engage in regular homosexul behavior are more likely to suffer depression, and other emotional problems.

I never said we should hate homosexuals, discriminate against homosexuals, or treat them like 2nd class people. I just believe people should be told there are reports out there, and I personally do believe these reports are worth a second look. I would welcome some more in depth, unbiased, research into whether thse allegations are true or not.

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Cathy Jones
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Cobra4J:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sister Ray:
[qb]I don't think having a "gay impulse" in itself is harmful, whether it's from nature, nurture, choice, or a combination of all 3. I have simply read some reports that say homosexual men are more likely to suffer physical consequences, probably because of their behavior, and many people who engage in regular homosexul behavior are more likely to suffer depression, and other emotional problems.

I never said we should hate homosexuals, discriminate against homosexuals, or treat them like 2nd class people. I just believe people should be told there are reports out there, and I personally do believe these reports are worth a second look. I would welcome some more in depth, unbiased, research into whether thse allegations are true or not.

Actually I am willing to say about 98% of people who are gay/bi/lesbian DO KNOW that there are these so-called reports/studies out there. The now defunct TV show "Queer as Folk" once did an episode on this and I believe one of these "we can help change your lifestyle" groups "Exodist" ( I know I mis-spelled that one ), I think even tried to buy ad space a few years back in American Bear ( a gay porn magazine ) and gay.com .
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ravynwriter
I Saw Three Shipments


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AnglRdr, thank you. You said much more succinctly what I obviously said poorly.
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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Cobra4J:
You run the risk of being labeled an intolerant, bigot, pig monster who makes threats.

Hardly. She hasn't been arguing that homosexuality is in and of itself harmful.

quote:
I don't think having a "gay impulse" in itself is harmful, whether it's from nature, nurture, choice, or a combination of all 3. I have simply read some reports that say homosexual men are more likely to suffer physical consequences, probably because of their behavior, and many people who engage in regular homosexul behavior are more likely to suffer depression, and other emotional problems.

I never said we should hate homosexuals, discriminate against homosexuals, or treat them like 2nd class people. I just believe people should be told there are reports out there, and I personally do believe these reports are worth a second look. I would welcome some more in depth, unbiased, research into whether thse allegations are true or not.

It's been asked of you before, but I'll ask again: would you also favour similar studies about how heterosexuality is potentially harmful to heterosexuals?

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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Sister Ray
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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I'm not bigoted because I don't think being gay is bad. It's not strictly good either - it's just gay. If you are gay, you like to have sex with members of the same sex. There are situations where sex with someone would be harmful, but that isn't a gay issue, because heteros doing the same things is equally as harmful.

And I am not really arguing about "nature/nurture" in the traditional sense. I'm not talking about some weird family dynamic that makes someone with a gene go gay. I was thinking of things like spontaneous mutation and uterine environment. These are not really genetic issues, but you can hardly call them nurture ones.

Sister "thanks for defending me, canuckistan" Ray

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The Organization. Adam Haseeb Memorial Pages. My library.

"There can't be a war on Christmas. Even Cambridge has decorations up!" - an observation I made

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Cobra4J
Jingle Bell Hock


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It's been asked of you before, but I'll ask again: would you also favour similar studies about how heterosexuality is potentially harmful to heterosexuals? [/QB][/QUOTE]

Ok smarty pants- Sure, I will not object to a study of the potential harmful effect of heterosexual behavior. I'm not sure you'll get a lot of people wanting to spend money on it, but I won't stop you.

And I am quite sure you will find practicing heterosexuals are more likely to spread an STD than a virgin (imagine that???) and that girls who have sexual intercourse are more likely to develop cervical cancer (I think that one has been proven).

However, the end result of doing away with heterosexual behavior is the human race does not reproduce. So, I have a feeling, no matter how harmful someone "proves" it to be, we need to keep heterosexual behavior safe and legal, certainly within the confines of marriage.

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Cobra4J
Jingle Bell Hock


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Cobra4J
Jingle Bell Hock


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It's been asked of you before, but I'll ask again: would you also favour similar studies about how heterosexuality is potentially harmful to heterosexuals? [/QB][/QUOTE]

Ok smarty pants- Sure, I will not object to a study of the potential harmful effect of heterosexual behavior. I'm not sure you'll get a lot of people wanting to spend money on it, but I won't stop you.

And I am quite sure you will find practicing heterosexuals are more likely to spread an STD than a virgin (imagine that???) and that girls who have sexual intercourse are more likely to develop cervical cancer (I think that one has been proven).

However, the end result of doing away with heterosexual behavior is the human race does not reproduce. So, I have a feeling, no matter how harmful someone "proves" it to be, we need to keep heterosexual behavior safe and legal, certainly within the confines of marriage.

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Wait a second...

heterosexuals are endangered?

Eh gads! [Roll Eyes]

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Spamamander in a pear tree
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Does that mean now that I popped out three kids it would be ok for me to be a lesbian? I mean, I've done more than my part to ensure the survival of our (overpopulated) species, so it certainly can't be harmful?

Spam "and yes I've had womansex- TMI for ya" Amander

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"There is a race between mankind and the universe. Mankind is trying to build bigger, better, faster, and more foolproof machines. The universe is trying to build bigger, better, and faster fools. So far the universe is winning." -Albert Einstein

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Tom o' Bedlam
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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I believe the point was that, since heterosexual intercourse is necessary for the survival of the human race, that it is unlikely to be proscribed against, not that homosexual intercourse should be discouraged on the basis that it is not (but rather, from Cobra's point of view, that it is harmful to individuals rather than humanity at large).

As I've said, I agree with most of you in that don't think there's any compelling evidence that homosexuality is harmful in any sense, but it doesn't help our cause to keep misinterpreting the arguments against it.

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Still I sing bonny boys, bonny mad boys,
Bedlam boys are bonny,
For they all go bare and they live by the air
And they want no drink nor money!

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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Cobra4J:
However, the end result of doing away with heterosexual behavior is the human race does not reproduce.

Irrelevant. If it's so important to inform gays that their sexual activies are so damaging, shouldn't we find out if heterosexual activities are damaging? That we need it for the species to survive is irrelevant (and, possibly, not true in the future, what with the progress in cloning and all).

quote:
So, I have a feeling, no matter how harmful someone "proves" it to be, we need to keep heterosexual behavior safe and legal,
I'm not advocating anything else. But just because it may (currently) be necessary for the survival of the race, doesn't mean that homosexual sex shouldn't be safe and legal as well.

quote:
certainly within the confines of marriage.
Eh? Where did this come from?

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Cobalt Kitty:
quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
It wouldn't work, CobaltKitty, because it is deeply prejudiced in terms of race, and most people in the 21st century tend to notice that. Sadly, one can still, apparently, be deeply prejudiced in terms of sexuality, and then play the shocked innocent when people notice.

It's not prejudice if a lifestyle is foudn to be harmful to try to get people away from it. Smokers are constantly told to stop, but that's not prejudice. Harmful behaviors and lifestyles can and should be changed.
Does that include belonging to religions which preach hatred? Just wondering. Because we know darned well that your religion is a choice.

Am I now permitted to go and try to convert people whose religions I feel are harmful to humanity to a different way of thinking. Am I allowed to bring in former members of Christian sects which spend a lot of their time preaching hate into a school to tell people how they converted? No? Why not?

And how, exactly, is homosexuality any more harmful to the species than me, who, despite being straight, has no plans to reproduce.

There is a theory that has been batted around from time to time that homosexuality was a preserved trait in the evolution of humanity so a small part of the population was not directly involved in the bearing and raising of kids, and, could thus, increase the survivability of their entire clan by lending extra support to those who were.

You do not have to reproduce in order to contribute to the survival of the species.

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Tom o' Bedlam
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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Now I'm very confused. Has anyone here posited an argument that homosexuality is harmful because it threatens the continuity of the species at large?

--------------------
Still I sing bonny boys, bonny mad boys,
Bedlam boys are bonny,
For they all go bare and they live by the air
And they want no drink nor money!

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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No, but the assertion has been made that


this:
quote:
Originally posted by Cobra4J:
However, the end result of doing away with heterosexual behavior is the human race does not reproduce. So, I have a feeling, no matter how harmful someone "proves" it to be, we need to keep heterosexual behavior safe and legal, certainly within the confines of marriage.

I am arguing that doing away with homosexuality might tend to similarly decrease the survivability of the species...

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Tom o' Bedlam
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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Okay, thanks for the clarification.

As to this part of your post:

quote:

Am I now permitted to go and try to convert people whose religions I feel are harmful to humanity to a different way of thinking. Am I allowed to bring in former members of Christian sects which spend a lot of their time preaching hate into a school to tell people how they converted? No? Why not?

I would argue that you are allowed to try to convert people, so long as it's not done forcibly. I'm not saying I think anyone should, but it's certainly not illegal.

As for the question about bringing a someone into a school to talk about their conversion, the reason why not is, of course, the separation of church and state*. For better or worse, there is nothing about the constitution about "separation of sexuality and state," so I suppose a situation like the OP is left to the school to decide.

*Actually, having given it a little more thought, I could conceive of such an occurence if the central message were "Hatred is bad," rather than "Religion X is bad."


Anyway, I'm just musing, here. I'm not sure how much, if any of this, contributes to either side of the argument.

--------------------
Still I sing bonny boys, bonny mad boys,
Bedlam boys are bonny,
For they all go bare and they live by the air
And they want no drink nor money!

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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I did, while writing that, actually consider the constitutionality of religious conversion in my analogy. Which is why analogies are always imperfect.

But one could argue that, if any part of the "formerly gay" presenters message is based on religion, it also violates separation.

I think though, that those who think bringing in the formerly gay folks a fine idea would react quite violently should someone dare to suggest that they be reprogrammed out of their beliefs. Which was the crux of the analogy.

NB: I do not believe that being gay is a choice. But those supporting this program do. I think it bears pointing out that religion is a choice as well and is protected as a basic human right. And there has been far more damage done to the world by religious bigots than homosexuals. Note that I am not saying there hasn't been good as well.

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Tom o' Bedlam
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
But one could argue that, if any part of the "formerly gay" presenters message is based on religion, it also violates separation.

Absolutely. For such a message to be rconstitutional, it would have to be divorced from any religious context. I'd argue that it should be free of moral context as well, but for most people who really want to see that message taught that would probably defeat the purpose.

I think that whether or not being gay is a choice is irrelevant and, as I think someone else said earlier in the thread, defending it on the grounds that it's not a choice may be harmful as it seems to concede that it's an undesirable trait.

To somewhat echo TurquoiseGirl, religion is also a choice, but it's still generally accepted as wong to discriminate on that basis.

--------------------
Still I sing bonny boys, bonny mad boys,
Bedlam boys are bonny,
For they all go bare and they live by the air
And they want no drink nor money!

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Cobalt Kitty
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
Am I now permitted to go and try to convert people whose religions I feel are harmful to humanity to a different way of thinking. Am I allowed to bring in former members of Christian sects which spend a lot of their time preaching hate into a school to tell people how they converted?

Well, it would probably raise constitutional issues as others have mentioned. But if you're asking my personal opinion, then my answer is yes, you should be allowed to do that.
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Spooky Cactus
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Cobalt Kitty:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
Am I now permitted to go and try to convert people whose religions I feel are harmful to humanity to a different way of thinking. Am I allowed to bring in former members of Christian sects which spend a lot of their time preaching hate into a school to tell people how they converted?

Well, it would probably raise constitutional issues as others have mentioned. But if you're asking my personal opinion, then my answer is yes, you should be allowed to do that.
Problem with this is far fewer kids are going to believe someone who says Christians are evil. They all know Christians, a sizeable amount are Christians and there's likely to be little anti-Chiristian feeling coming from their families or the media they watch/read/listen to. So, even in school an anti-Christian group won't be able to do much damage.

On the other hand, they might not know any out gay people. Very few of them are likely to be gay, and those that are, at this age, are likely to be closeted or in denial. Their families might have, directly or indirectly, expressed homophobic sentiments. They probably hear all the time from TV, magazines, friends and the internet people who think being gay is wrong. Then along comes someone who appears to be backed by the school, which is supposed to teach you, and they tell you being gay is a disease which can be cured. That's going to be way more damaging for a gay kid than anti-Christianity to a Christian kid.

--------------------
'When the world is dead and gone, we will still be Rocking On!' (J.P.McCartney)

Posts: 154 | From: Yorkshire, England | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
tantan
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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I myself knew a few who were approached by these groups and one actually who joined one of them. In his case his parents gave him a choice, either go or don't consider us as your parents. He went and no it didn't work out.

I remember him telling me the group met at a local church, yet they ENCOURAGED sex between the opposite sex, the word "marriage" wasn't even brought up.

Part of the therapy was that he wasn't allowed to have any contact with any other males unless they were in the group or family members. By being with members of your own sex, well that can turn you gay.

The word "bisexual" wasn't brought up. According to this group, this doesn't exist as sexuality is like a on/off switch. In other words one can stop being gay.

The others I knew who were approached by these people well one of the guys a picture of him appeared in a magazine geared towards other gay men. He was getting emails like "..I can tell by your face you are very happy, come join us and we can help you". So lets see here, members of a group who claim to help gay people to go straight, they go out and buy gay porn to possibly recruit new members? Strange !!

The others were approached through gay personal ads online.

Telling teenage boys/girls that it is wrong to hang around with members of their own sex?

And they want a say in schools?

Posts: 11 | From: Romney, WV | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
notsmiffy
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Thalomarre:
I must admit that I'm confused by notsmiffy's logic as well. I find his interpretation of ravynwriter's Christian book store analogy as an argument for segregation particularly baffling...

"You folks aren't represented here? Then go somewhere where you are represented!"

Does it make sense now? That's the only sense I can make of it: it certainly had no application to anything under discussion on this thread.

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Tom o' Bedlam
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by notsmiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by Thalomarre:
I must admit that I'm confused by notsmiffy's logic as well. I find his interpretation of ravynwriter's Christian book store analogy as an argument for segregation particularly baffling...

"You folks aren't represented here? Then go somewhere where you are represented!"

Does it make sense now? That's the only sense I can make of it: it certainly had no application to anything under discussion on this thread.

Would you apply the same logic to a supermarket that stocks apples, but not pears?

--------------------
Still I sing bonny boys, bonny mad boys,
Bedlam boys are bonny,
For they all go bare and they live by the air
And they want no drink nor money!

Posts: 107 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
notsmiffy
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Thalomarre:
quote:
Originally posted by notsmiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by Thalomarre:
I must admit that I'm confused by notsmiffy's logic as well. I find his interpretation of ravynwriter's Christian book store analogy as an argument for segregation particularly baffling...

"You folks aren't represented here? Then go somewhere where you are represented!"

Does it make sense now? That's the only sense I can make of it: it certainly had no application to anything under discussion on this thread.

Would you apply the same logic to a supermarket that stocks apples, but not pears?
This isn't about a supermarket. I was referring to a faulty analogy, not a retailer.
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Tom o' Bedlam
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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Faulty? If it were an analogy for segregation, it certainly would be.

I'm going to go ahead and expound on what ravyn has said, since I agree with her and believe her arguments are sound when not turned into something completely unrelated.

The point of her argument was (from my perspective) that if you're against something, the steps you take should be constructive and worth the effort. Sometimes getting in an individual offender's face and raising a stink is either ineffective or not worth one's time, when an alternative would be more efficient (taking your business--and your money--elsewhere in the book store scenario, or arranging a formal protest and/or voting against the injustice in the instance of a segregation law).

Apologies to ravynwriter if I misconstrued any of her arguments.

--------------------
Still I sing bonny boys, bonny mad boys,
Bedlam boys are bonny,
For they all go bare and they live by the air
And they want no drink nor money!

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ravynwriter
I Saw Three Shipments


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No, you hit the nail exactly on the head. Thank you, Thalomarre. [Smile]
Posts: 58 | From: Seattle, WA | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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