posted
A judge ignored a former teacher's sobbing pleas for mercy and sentenced her to seven years in prison on charges that she sent explicit photos to a young teenager while on probation for having sex with him.
quote:"I have humiliated myself. What I did was wrong," Rogers said. "I am willing to do anything to rehabilitate myself."
Fortunately for the boy she's been exploiting, she can do it from the comfort of a jail cell.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Does it seem as if there are more and more cases of female teacher/male student affairs spring up? Or is it just gaining more publicity?
It has always appeared to me that exploitation of young males by females has been a bit more ignored than the converse scenario because the notion was that the boys in question were somehow "lucky", I guess.*
Aura
*I don't believe that, just to clarify. Rape is rape, abuse is abuse, and statutory is statutory regardless of gender.
-------------------- "Are we talking misdemeanor trouble or squeal like a pig trouble?" Posts: 618 | From: Ann Arbor, Michigan | Registered: May 2006
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posted
I realize I am probably going to drown in the storm that will follow this post, but...
I am very torn on this issue. I can remember what I was like as a teenager and I really don't see how it would have damaged me to find an older attractive woman who wanted to sleep with me. I think that there is a difference between these cases and cases of older man and young teenage girl, or older man and young boy. Statutory rape exists because we make the generalization that persons younger than a certain age cannot resist coercion successfully and thus cannot be said to truly consent.
We accept the fact that this generalization is not always apt, because otherwise more harm will result from the case by case uncertainty and we opt to restrict the freedom of the few mature minors to protect the rest. In a case of Mature woman, young male, it seems to me that coercion would seldom be necessary and so the policy justifying the rule is not present.
As to Aura's point, it is not just you. In many cases statutory rape laws were female specific until a couple of decades ago; it simply wasn't legally rape for a woman to seduce a young male until recently.
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I have to side with AP on that matter. Personally I think the US law of "If they are under 18 its rape" a bit too black and white. Especially since I grew up in a country where that matter (and sex in general) was handled more natural. True, she would have gotten in trouble over there too, not just because of the age difference but also due to the fact that she was his teacher.
-------------------- ~Reality, the refuge of those who fail in RPGs~ aka Darkfist Dragon -==(UDIC)==- Posts: 334 | From: Lancaster, Ohio | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
But AF, doesn't the fact that this woman broke her probation with explicit photos and video tell you she is a predator? It speaks of both obsession and seduction to me, of trying to keep a hold on him from a distance. That seems like a type of coercion to me. Are you saying it shouldn't matter, because he probably likes it?
ETA--Guys, he's 14!
-------------------- The technical term is narcissism. You can't believe everything is your fault unless you also believe you're all powerful.--House Posts: 2684 | From: Budapest | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Little Pink Pill: Are you saying it shouldn't matter, because he probably likes it?
I'd like to know the answer to that, too. Many things that 14YOs like are not good for them, and so we restrict their access to those things. Because they're 14, and they don't know what's good for them.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis: Statutory rape exists because we make the generalization that persons younger than a certain age cannot resist coercion successfully and thus cannot be said to truly consent.
It's because of many things, but the inability to resist coercion isn't one of them. I'd say the main reasons are:
It is more dangerous for a young girl to give birth than for an adult. I'm guessing this is the main reason, because it would account for the few prosecutions of women for statutory rape (until recent years).
They are less able to determine whether the other person's intentions are what they appear. Among other things, this means distinguishing between someone who actually cares and someone who just wants sex, and whether the person means anything that he says.
Minors are less likely to understand the various consequences of the act. This means not only pregnancy but the social and emotional consequences of either sex or a pregnancy.
-------------------- "Well, it looks we're on our own ... again."--Rev. Lovejoy Posts: 3572 | From: St. Louis, MO | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis: Statutory rape exists because we make the generalization that persons younger than a certain age cannot resist coercion successfully and thus cannot be said to truly consent.
It's because of many things, but the inability to resist coercion isn't one of them. I'd say the main reasons are:
It is more dangerous for a young girl to give birth than for an adult. I'm guessing this is the main reason, because it would account for the few prosecutions of women for statutory rape (until recent years).
They are less able to determine whether the other person's intentions are what they appear. Among other things, this means distinguishing between someone who actually cares and someone who just wants sex, and whether the person means anything that he says.
Minors are less likely to understand the various consequences of the act. This means not only pregnancy but the social and emotional consequences of either sex or a pregnancy.
Sorry, but two of your examples are aspects of what I would consider an inability to resist coercion so I have to protest your first sentence.
The statutes state that as a matter of law a person who is under the age cannot consent, the reasoning behind them, going back many many years is the old Aristotelian rule of 7s. 1-7 years old you are not a rational being, 7-14 you are possibly rational but not certainly etc. The statute creates an irrebuttable presumption of incapacity and hence you cannot consent.
The other reasons you cite are harms believed to come from that inability, but it is an inability to consent that is being presupposed not an enhanced risk from consenting.
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Little Pink Pill: But AF, doesn't the fact that this woman broke her probation with explicit photos and video tell you she is a predator? It speaks of both obsession and seduction to me, of trying to keep a hold on him from a distance. That seems like a type of coercion to me. Are you saying it shouldn't matter, because he probably likes it?
ETA--Guys, he's 14!
There is an element of circularity in this argument. I think the facts you are citing are just as likely to indicate sincere attachment and therefore the opposite of what you are seeing. Sincere attachment and obsession may not be all that far apart, except in the eye of the beholder.
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo: I have to side with AP on that matter. Personally I think the US law of "If they are under 18 its rape" a bit too black and white. Especially since I grew up in a country where that matter (and sex in general) was handled more natural. True, she would have gotten in trouble over there too, not just because of the age difference but also due to the fact that she was his teacher.
I hate to point this out since you are agreeing with me, but there is no national age of consent and the States ages range from 12 with limitations on the age of the partner, to an absolute 18. Legal in one state may be rape in another, which, given the lifelong consequences of a conviction, leads to some serious injustices. In some jurisdictions under 18 partners can be with people under 18 legally but become rapists when the birthday passes. In those places a couple of highschool seniors may find themselves lovers one day and victim/criminal defendant the next.
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Little Pink Pill: Are you saying it shouldn't matter, because he probably likes it?
I'd like to know the answer to that, too. Many things that 14YOs like are not good for them, and so we restrict their access to those things. Because they're 14, and they don't know what's good for them.
If you can make me see how he is harmed, I'll agree with you. That is why I said I was torn on this issue in my original post. I can see the harm being done to the 14 year old girl in the parallel case, and I am not sure what the fact that I don't see the harm to the boy means.
As I see this issue there are two kinds of statutory rape laws.
One prevents child molestation, in other words any sexual contact with prepubescents. Those laws are absolutely necessary and prevent harm. Say anyone under some age between 12-14
The other prevent adults from having sex with sexually, but not necessarily mentally or emotionaly mature teens. Those are the ones I am struggling with do to my perception of a lack of harm to the boy in such a relationship.
Basicly my disturbance boils down to this.
I do not see this as harming the boy.
I do see the parallel as harming the girl.
Therefore either
1.I am wrong about one of those two statements, or
2. there is a significant difference in boys and girls responses and affect, from sexual experiences.
If 2 is correct then I would argue that the laws should return to making sex distinctions because in that case it would make sense, and probably meet the constitutional test for sex distinctions in law which, to grossly over simplify, is that such distinctions must be directly tied to actual differences between the sexes.
IF 1 is correct then either A. I am wrong about boys, in which case I should shut up and go along with the outrage at this woman.
or
B. I am wrong about girls in which case I should argue for 14 as the age of consent.
I think it least likely that I am wrong about boys because I have experienced being a teen boy, although clearly I am not certain that I am right, others may well recall their teen years differently.
Anyway, that is where I am mentally on this issue, I wouldn't call it a stance since it basically boils down to me being unsure of the validity of almost every claim that can be made about this issue, except that anyone who touches an actual child (pre-adolescent) must be held accountable. Interestingly all my contradictory thoughts on this subject are either presently, or have been recently, examples of the law. So maybe I'm not that far off the mainstream of thought here.
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I think you are wrong about boys, A_F. I would speculate that A 14 year old boy is probably more easily coerced by a woman in authority (this was a teacher, don't forget) than a 14 year old girl would be by a man in authority, due to the vast differences in maturity levels, as well as the societal pressure put on boys vis a vis their sexuality.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote: If you can make me see how he is harmed, I'll agree with you. That is why I said I was torn on this issue in my original post. I can see the harm being done to the 14 year old girl in the parallel case, and I am not sure what the fact that I don't see the harm to the boy means.
Check back on the boy in ten years when he's a man... examine his likely-warped views on sexuality, relationships with women, and women in general.
Not all damage is immediate.
-------------------- High on the wind, the Highland drums begin to roll, and something from the past just comes and stares into my soul... --Mark Knopfler Posts: 3402 | From: New Bern, NC | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Another major concern is possible fatherhood at 13 or 14. That pushes the damage into the next generation.
-------------------- "But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language Posts: 851 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote: If you can make me see how he is harmed, I'll agree with you. That is why I said I was torn on this issue in my original post. I can see the harm being done to the 14 year old girl in the parallel case, and I am not sure what the fact that I don't see the harm to the boy means.
Check back on the boy in ten years when he's a man... examine his likely-warped views on sexuality, relationships with women, and women in general.
Not all damage is immediate.
See that's the thing I am not sure I agree with. I don't think it will warp him. I think in many ways it's better to learn about sex from Mrs. Robinson, than to fumble around at it with someone as scared as you are.
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis:
quote:Originally posted by DesertRat:
quote: If you can make me see how he is harmed, I'll agree with you. That is why I said I was torn on this issue in my original post. I can see the harm being done to the 14 year old girl in the parallel case, and I am not sure what the fact that I don't see the harm to the boy means.
Check back on the boy in ten years when he's a man... examine his likely-warped views on sexuality, relationships with women, and women in general.
Not all damage is immediate.
See that's the thing I am not sure I agree with. I don't think it will warp him. I think in many ways it's better to learn about sex from Mrs. Robinson, than to fumble around at it with someone as scared as you are.
It isn't about sex, though, per se. It is about relationships between those in authority and those they oversee.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Here's a summary of effects of sexual abuse on boys.
-------------------- "But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language Posts: 851 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by wanderwoman: Here's a summary of effects of sexual abuse on boys.
That cite seems to be talking about Male sexual abuse of boys not an Older woman young male relationship. Many of the ills it describes are a result of gender confusion resulting from male-male sexual contact on the heterosexual boy.
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis:
quote:Originally posted by DesertRat:
quote: If you can make me see how he is harmed, I'll agree with you. That is why I said I was torn on this issue in my original post. I can see the harm being done to the 14 year old girl in the parallel case, and I am not sure what the fact that I don't see the harm to the boy means.
Check back on the boy in ten years when he's a man... examine his likely-warped views on sexuality, relationships with women, and women in general.
Not all damage is immediate.
See that's the thing I am not sure I agree with. I don't think it will warp him. I think in many ways it's better to learn about sex from Mrs. Robinson, than to fumble around at it with someone as scared as you are.
It isn't about sex, though, per se. It is about relationships between those in authority and those they oversee.
Actually, that issue isn't really the one I am interested in (no snark intended). The punishment of the authority figure who has an inappropriate relationship is fine with me, whether that relationship is with a college student or high school. I'm talking about consentual relationships with sexually mature, but underage people, that we categorize as rape by denying the consent had validity. I probably should have raised this issue elsewhere because this case does involve an authority figure and the boy was 14 which I regard as borderline with actual childhood, see my post above.
The cases I am more unsure of are situations with 15-18 year olds and adults who were not in loco parentis. I am starting, as I think more and more about this, and read what others post and link to, to think that really what I would like to see, is a 15 or 16 age of consent for both sexes, rather than 18.
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by wanderwoman: Another major concern is possible fatherhood at 13 or 14. That pushes the damage into the next generation.
This is one of the places that I see justification for sex distinct laws in this area. It is almost unimaginable that the boy would end up with custody and responsibility for the child, whereas it is likely that a girl would.
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis:
quote:Originally posted by wanderwoman: Here's a summary of effects of sexual abuse on boys.
That cite seems to be talking about Male sexual abuse of boys not an Older woman young male relationship. Many of the ills it describes are a result of gender confusion resulting from male-male sexual contact on the heterosexual boy.
The part that begins with this paragraph:
quote: Particularly when the assailant is a woman, the impact of sexual assault upon men may be downplayed by professionals and the public. However, men who have early sexual experiences with adults report problems in various areas at a much higher rate than those who do not.
Applies to boys who have been abused by an adult whether male or female.
-------------------- "But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language Posts: 851 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis:
quote:Originally posted by wanderwoman: Another major concern is possible fatherhood at 13 or 14. That pushes the damage into the next generation.
This is one of the places that I see justification for sex distinct laws in this area. It is almost unimaginable that the boy would end up with custody and responsibility for the child, whereas it is likely that a girl would.
What about possible effects on the child?
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis:
quote:Originally posted by AnglRdr:
quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis:
quote:Originally posted by DesertRat:
quote: If you can make me see how he is harmed, I'll agree with you. That is why I said I was torn on this issue in my original post. I can see the harm being done to the 14 year old girl in the parallel case, and I am not sure what the fact that I don't see the harm to the boy means.
Check back on the boy in ten years when he's a man... examine his likely-warped views on sexuality, relationships with women, and women in general.
Not all damage is immediate.
See that's the thing I am not sure I agree with. I don't think it will warp him. I think in many ways it's better to learn about sex from Mrs. Robinson, than to fumble around at it with someone as scared as you are.
It isn't about sex, though, per se. It is about relationships between those in authority and those they oversee.
Actually, that issue isn't really the one I am interested in (no snark intended). The punishment of the authority figure who has an inappropriate relationship is fine with me, whether that relationship is with a college student or high school. I'm talking about consentual relationships with sexually mature, but underage people, that we categorize as rape by denying the consent had validity. I probably should have raised this issue elsewhere because this case does involve an authority figure and the boy was 14 which I regard as borderline with actual childhood, see my post above.
The cases I am more unsure of are situations with 15-18 year olds and adults who were not in loco parentis. I am starting, as I think more and more about this, and read what others post and link to, to think that really what I would like to see, is a 15 or 16 age of consent for both sexes, rather than 18.
I agree that age of consent issues are vague. I would contend that it is the very rare 14 year old male that I would consider emotionally mature enough to enter into a sexual relationship with an adult. IMO, the purpose of age of consent laws is to ensure that emotionally immature children (most 14 year olds, in general, and nearly all 14 year old boys) are not exploited by adults who would prey up on that vulnerability.
I think it is important to remember that sexual maturity has little-to-no connection to emotional maturity, and certainly not to intellectual maturity. Children (and adults, quite frankly) who are unable to consciously weigh the risks and benefits of their actions, then they should be discouraged from those actions.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis:
quote:Originally posted by wanderwoman: Another major concern is possible fatherhood at 13 or 14. That pushes the damage into the next generation.
This is one of the places that I see justification for sex distinct laws in this area. It is almost unimaginable that the boy would end up with custody and responsibility for the child, whereas it is likely that a girl would.
But how is it good for either the boy or his offspring for him to become a father before he is even old enough to be able to make an informed decision about whether he wants to take on the responsibility?
-------------------- "But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language Posts: 851 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis:
quote:Originally posted by wanderwoman: Here's a summary of effects of sexual abuse on boys.
That cite seems to be talking about Male sexual abuse of boys not an Older woman young male relationship. Many of the ills it describes are a result of gender confusion resulting from male-male sexual contact on the heterosexual boy.
The part that begins with this paragraph:
quote: Particularly when the assailant is a woman, the impact of sexual assault upon men may be downplayed by professionals and the public. However, men who have early sexual experiences with adults report problems in various areas at a much higher rate than those who do not.
Applies to boys who have been abused by an adult whether male or female.
It mentions women true, but does not seem to discuss distinctions. For one thing it refers to assailants in this context which seems like conflating actual assaults with statutory rapes, that begs the question I am asking. Which basicly is what are the harms from consentual (de facto) relationships that are (de jure) non-consentual, simply lumping the two things together then discussing the harms caused by actual assaults begs that question.
Having looked up a chart of State laws governing these matters, I find that far more States are already doing what I am coming to think is the right thing and making 16 the age of consent. ages
Lainie, I am not sure you are talking about the harm to the child-father or the child-father's child, in either case my answer would be that a teen boy is more likely to father an unwanted child with a teen girl than with an adult woman, even figured on a chance per sex act basis. Adult women are more likely to be aware of the risks of pregnancy and knowledgeable about avoiding it.
I'll stop responding to each post now. I've had my say and am interested in other's views. I do reserve the right to answer posts that raise an interesting point I want to expand on or hear explained more, or posts that really make me mad
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis:
quote:Originally posted by wanderwoman: Another major concern is possible fatherhood at 13 or 14. That pushes the damage into the next generation.
This is one of the places that I see justification for sex distinct laws in this area. It is almost unimaginable that the boy would end up with custody and responsibility for the child, whereas it is likely that a girl would.
But how is it good for either the boy or his offspring for him to become a father before he is even old enough to be able to make an informed decision about whether he wants to take on the responsibility?
Ok, one last post, because both you and wanderwoman posted while I was writing the last one and I think you are both making the same assumption, which I am not. I don't see these laws as in any sense preventing teens from having sex; they are preventing teens from having sex with adults.
The issue of whether the teen should be having sex at all is a separate one and I don't think it fits in this debate, unless we are somehow going to punish teens for having sex with their peers. As I mentioned above the risks of pregnancy resulting from these relationships seems likely to be less than that in teen-teen relationships.
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I think others have already said it well, but here goes. True, the experience isn't going to be exactly the same for boys as for girls, but that doesn't mean it won't be hazardous for boys. Thinking of myself at 13, there were certain teachers whom I definitely would have let have their way with me if they wanted. Thinking of myself now, I thank my lucky stars no one ever took advantage of me like that. It takes maturity to handle that level of intimacy, and few if any 13-year olds have that much maturity. Then there's the fact that she was his teacher.
I do agree that a hard and fast age of consent law is going to put some people off limits when they're old enough to decide for themselves, but you do have to draw the line somewhere.
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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posted
The problem with the law is, even if both the boy and the woman enjoy what they are doing, even if they feel something for each other (even if that just happens to be mutual sexual attraction), then the government says this is wrong.
I say there's a big difference between being a sexual predator and having a mutual attraction to someone younger than you. Considering the way the laws are currently set up, the woman did commit a crime, though, and therefore, should be sent to jail. However, I have to voice my strong disagreement with this law and *do* think this type of thing should be considered on a case-by-case basis.
I hate to play this card, because it sounds like I'm being a jerk and I'm really not trying to be. How many of us guys would have willingly given it up to an attractive teacher in high school if she approached us? The problem here is, the thoughts and feelings of the child aren't considered, if you can even call a 14/15 year old a child, I'd rather say "teenager" personally. Instead, we just say "it's a child, it can't think for itself!"
quote:Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon: I hate to play this card, because it sounds like I'm being a jerk and I'm really not trying to be. How many of us guys would have willingly given it up to an attractive teacher in high school if she approached us?
Are you assuming that wouldn't be true of a teenage girl approached by a hot male teacher? Having been a teenage girl, I don't think that assumption is valid.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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Frankly, I think it's a sexist attitude to assume that a young woman needs more protection from her burgeoning sexuality than a young man of the same age.
Also, although it's flattering to my gender, there seems to be this notion that women aren't capable of being sexual coercive or even down-right predatory. There is always this implication that "eh, it's not so bad, because secretly, the guy likes it!" Because no man, has ever, nor will ever *not* want to have sex with a hot chick.
Aura
-------------------- "Are we talking misdemeanor trouble or squeal like a pig trouble?" Posts: 618 | From: Ann Arbor, Michigan | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon: I hate to play this card, because it sounds like I'm being a jerk and I'm really not trying to be. How many of us guys would have willingly given it up to an attractive teacher in high school if she approached us?
Are you assuming that wouldn't be true of a teenage girl approached by a hot male teacher? Having been a teenage girl, I don't think that assumption is valid.
It very well could be true of a teenage girl. I was making no assumptions, simply stating what I knew from experience, because I was once a teenage boy and never was a teenage girl. Notice, that what you said, I never said in my post. You are making an argument from silence, IMO.
ETA-
quote:Lainie, I agree.
Frankly, I think it's a sexist attitude to assume that a young woman needs more protection from her burgeoning sexuality than a young man of the same age.
Also, although it's flattering to my gender, there seems to be this notion that women aren't capable of being sexual coercive or even down-right predatory. There is always this implication that "eh, it's not so bad, because secretly, the guy likes it!" Because no man, has ever, nor will ever *not* want to have sex with a hot chick. [Roll Eyes]
Aura
But I never said women couldn't be predators, or that no guy would ever not want to have sex with a hot chick. I've refused sex with a female I was attracted to on more than one occassion. The point was, that the intent and the feelings and thoughts of the supposed "victim" as well as his supposed "assaulter" should be taken into consideration. The point of my sentence asking guys if they would have had sex with an attractive teacher when they were younger was to state that this case isn't cut and dry (well, it is from a legal perspective, but from a moral perspective, it's certainly not.)
Remember, I never said the same considerations shouldn't be taken for a female "victim" and a male "assaulter." I never said anything about a female victim, because I have no experience at being female and I was speaking from experience.
posted
When I said I agreed with Lainie, I meant merely in refrence to her pointing out that our experiences as teenage girls leads us to believe that they would be just as willing to have sex with a "hot" male teacher as teenage boys would be. At least, that's what I think she meant. I could be wrong.
The rest I didn't mean for you specifically, or anyone else who has participated in this thread. That was just a general comment on an attitude I have encountered far too often, and find rather frustrating. Upon rereading my post I realize that I failed to make that clear. So, I apologize. Not for the observations themselves, though. I still stand by that.
Aura
-------------------- "Are we talking misdemeanor trouble or squeal like a pig trouble?" Posts: 618 | From: Ann Arbor, Michigan | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon: The point was, that the intent and the feelings and thoughts of the supposed "victim" as well as his supposed "assaulter" should be taken into consideration.
The problem is, those feeling and intent are only found out *after* the sexual contact has taken place. Because of the young age of the teen, it is possible that the adult has manipulated the teen's emotions into thinking that the teen did and still does want the contact. Also, most laws are not based on what the teen wants, but on what society has said the teen is permitted. Some teens want to drink before they are 21, smoke before they are 18, or drive before they are 16. But society says that their wants don't matter in these cases because they aren't mature enough to make those decisions.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon: I hate to play this card, because it sounds like I'm being a jerk and I'm really not trying to be. How many of us guys would have willingly given it up to an attractive teacher in high school if she approached us?
Are you assuming that wouldn't be true of a teenage girl approached by a hot male teacher? Having been a teenage girl, I don't think that assumption is valid.
It very well could be true of a teenage girl. I was making no assumptions, simply stating what I knew from experience, because I was once a teenage boy and never was a teenage girl. Notice, that what you said, I never said in my post. You are making an argument from silence, IMO.
I wasn't making an argument at all: I was asking a question.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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