posted
Six-term Republican Rep. Mark Foley of Florida has resigned from the U.S. Congress following reports he sent sexually inappropriate e-mails to underage congressional interns.
posted
"Foley, chairman of the House caucus on missing and exploited children"
-------------------- No man has a right in America to treat any other man "tolerantly" for tolerance is the assumption of superiority. -Wendell L. Willkie Posts: 3833 | From: Virginia | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Accidentally made another thread on this...but basically what I said in the other one is that it's quite depressing that the Representative's grammar skills are so lacking. And that it's strange he'd want to initiate a correspondence with a sixteen year old intern.
-------------------- "You can't play Electro-magnetic Golf according to the rules of Centrifugal Bumble Puppy." -Mustapha Mond, "Brave New World" Posts: 679 | From: New York | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
It seems most of the Republican leadership has known about this for months now, and done little about it. Good God.
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Meh, it's out, and he's out. And that's for the best.
It seems that Republicans who are implicated in sex scandals deny, obfuscate, cover-up, then get out of office quickly when the truth becomes obvious.
Democrats, OTOH, do the same things except for that last bit. They get re-elected to multiple terms instead.
Must be the constituencies. Republican voters have WAY more sexual hang-ups, so the rest of the job their leaders do matters proportionally less to their voters.
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later
posted
Best. "But Clinton." Ever.
You're just descending into self-parody now, First.
Well, I say now......
-------------------- This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down. Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
.I do not know Foley, but I respect the fact that he resigned. Basically he admitted to it, and resigned. I wish previous leaders had the moral integrity to do the same when they were caught in their little sexual escapades, but it appears that is wishing for too much.
Posts: 4580 | From: Walnut Creek, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
"Sexual escapades" can be quite different. While this is a pretty creepy occurence, and one that involves an abuse of power, I fail to see while sexual escapades should automatically disqualify anyone from office. What happens between consenting adults in the off-hours is none of anyone's concern.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara: Best. "But Clinton." Ever.
You're just descending into self-parody now, First.
Well, I say now......
Clinton got re-elected AFTER the Lewinsky scandal broke? Somebody better inform Bush and Gore both.
Nope, wasn't talking about Clinton. There are plenty others to lead with here.
For example, NY Democrat named Richmond back in the 70's, got charged with soliciting sex from a minor and an undercover cop. Pled to a Misdemeanor. Stayed in office, and got re-elected... at least until they got him on tax evasion and other stuff.
quote:Fred Richmond — of New York. Born in Massachusetts, November 15, 1923. Democrat. U.S. Representative from New York 14th District, 1975-82. Jewish. Arrested in Washington, D.C., in 1978 for soliciting sex from a minor and from an undercover police officer; pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor. In 1982, charged with tax evasion, marijuana possession, and improper payments to a federal employee, he pleaded guilty and was sentenced to a year and a day in prison; served nine months.
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Must be the constituencies. Republican voters have WAY more sexual hang-ups, so the rest of the job their leaders do matters proportionally less to their voters.
This is really for the worse I think, I don't really know much about this particular guy but the idea that somebodies sexual acts* can override their other much more relevant purposes is.. Well.. Stupid..
*There is some suggestion what he did was actually a sex crime, as in with an underaged girl, so that may be more relevant, but I'm speaking more generally, like you know somebody is caught cheating on their spouse or sleeping with a hooker (also a crime but not of the same level IMO).
-------------------- "All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do" Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I think part of his quick resignation, according to the Wikipedia page on him, was the evidence that he was sending explicit messages to a 16 year old male page.
-------------------- Obi Wan: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" Anakin: "Um, isn't your last statement an absolute?" Posts: 166 | From: San Antonio, Texas | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Wintermute: Basically he admitted to it, and resigned. I wish previous leaders had the moral integrity to do the same when they were caught in their little sexual escapades, but it appears that is wishing for too much.
Actually, he was "caught" nearly a year ago, but the Republican House leadership kept a lid on it. Just who are these other leaders who did not resign after being caught messing around with minors? I'll concede the one First mentioned, but I doubt that's whom you were referring to - if you were referring to anyone in particular at all.
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ramblin' Dave, quietly making noise: Just who are these other leaders who did not resign after being caught messing around with minors?
In the 80's Reps. Gerry Studds (D) of Massachusetts and Daniel B. Crane (R) of Illinois. They were both caught w/ 17 year old pages - neither resigned. Studds was re-elected; Crane was defeated. ref
-------------------- No man has a right in America to treat any other man "tolerantly" for tolerance is the assumption of superiority. -Wendell L. Willkie Posts: 3833 | From: Virginia | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:I wish previous leaders had the moral integrity to do the same when they were caught in their little sexual escapades, but it appears that is wishing for too much.
If they had moral integrity, they wouldn't need to resign in the first place.
quote:Originally posted by First of Two: It seems that Republicans who are implicated in sex scandals deny, obfuscate, cover-up, then get out of office quickly when the truth becomes obvious.
Democrats, OTOH, do the same things except for that last bit. They get re-elected to multiple terms instead.
Jim McGreevy (although his resignation wasn't particularly quick).
-------------------- Is here no telephone? Posts: 323 | From: Brooklyn, NY | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Canuckistan: "Sexual escapades" can be quite different. While this is a pretty creepy occurence, and one that involves an abuse of power, I fail to see while sexual escapades should automatically disqualify anyone from office. What happens between consenting adults in the off-hours is none of anyone's concern.
I totally agree with you, Canuck, (I mean, good golly, men in power - or not in power - and women too - have always had affairs - that is our flawed human nature) but this guy wasn't dealing with adults. That, to me, makes all the difference.
-------------------- "Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit
(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad) Posts: 2397 | From: Texarkana, TX | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by First of Two: Nope, wasn't talking about Clinton. There are plenty others to lead with here.
The "But Clinton" is just the most common variant of the "But some liberal/Democrat somewhere at some point," so I'm afraid you just reinforced his statement.
Posts: 940 | From: California | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by First of Two: Nope, wasn't talking about Clinton. There are plenty others to lead with here.
The "But Clinton" is just the most common variant of the "But some liberal/Democrat somewhere at some point," so I'm afraid you just reinforced his statement.
I don't think so necessarily. Usually the "But Clinton!" is a way to divert attention from a completely unrelated scandal. "Oh, secret CIA prisons? Well Clinton had an affair in the Oval Office!"
In this case, it's at least marginally germane.
Posts: 345 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by First of Two: It seems that Republicans who are implicated in sex scandals deny, obfuscate, cover-up, then get out of office quickly when the truth becomes obvious.
Democrats, OTOH, do the same things except for that last bit. They get re-elected to multiple terms instead.
Jim McGreevy (although his resignation wasn't particularly quick).
By and large, I liked McGreevey as the governor of my home state, but it really bothers me that he's been getting a free pass for trying to appoint his lover as the head of NJ Homeland Security when he was completely unqualified. (To the point that he had to withdraw the appointment because Cipel couldn't even get FBI clearance to see classified documents.)
Posts: 345 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
The cries of objection to "But Clinton..." are equally as grating as the initial appeal to comparison in the first place. "But Clinton" has become a new corollary to Godwin's law methinks.
-------------------- "I wanna bite the hand that feeds me. I wanna bite that hand so badly. I wanna make them wish they'd never seen me." - Elvis Costello Posts: 2291 | From: The Banks of the Merrimack, MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by AdmiralDinty: The cries of objection to "But Clinton..." are equally as grating as the initial appeal to comparison in the first place. "But Clinton" has become a new corollary to Godwin's law methinks.
I think there is hoping against hope that those who rely on the "but Clinton..." defense will learn the error of their ways.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Can we ban the "but Clinton" defense from the board at least?
-------------------- "You see? The mysteries of the Universe are revealed when you break stuff." Coop from MegasXLR
"I distrust who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -- Susan B. Anthony Posts: 2246 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by First of Two: Nope, wasn't talking about Clinton. There are plenty others to lead with here.
The "But Clinton" is just the most common variant of the "But some liberal/Democrat somewhere at some point," so I'm afraid you just reinforced his statement.
I don't think so necessarily. Usually the "But Clinton!" is a way to divert attention from a completely unrelated scandal. "Oh, secret CIA prisons? Well Clinton had an affair in the Oval Office!"
In this case, it's at least marginally germane.
Yes, exactly. Because "soliciting sex from a minor" and "soliciting sex from a minor" miraculously happen to be the exact same crime. I would presume that even "But Clinton"-crying Liberals would have to admit that.
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by First of Two: Nope, wasn't talking about Clinton. There are plenty others to lead with here.
The "But Clinton" is just the most common variant of the "But some liberal/Democrat somewhere at some point," so I'm afraid you just reinforced his statement.
I don't think so necessarily. Usually the "But Clinton!" is a way to divert attention from a completely unrelated scandal. "Oh, secret CIA prisons? Well Clinton had an affair in the Oval Office!"
In this case, it's at least marginally germane.
Yes, exactly. Because "soliciting sex from a minor" and "soliciting sex from a minor" miraculously happen to be the exact same crime. I would presume that even "But Clinton"-crying Liberals would have to admit that.
The question isn't whether they're the same crime, the question is how the one committed three decades ago is relevant at all to the one committed in this decade.
This thread was dicussing one guy, one event, one scandal before you got here; no one was making the induction that this probably means all Republicans are child molesters, which is what you seem to have been trying to pre-empt, strangely. And if that is what you were trying to guard against, then your chosen avenue--"Even if that's true, so are Democrats!"--is a "But Clinton" in every way except name. It's marginally germane only if "But your side does it too" is ever marginally germane--which it wasn't in this case, since no one was drawing partisan lines before you.
Posts: 940 | From: California | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
And as long as we now are drawing partisan lines, does anyone know of any previous scandal - involving either party - in which the party leadership covered for the guy as Hastert, Boehner et al did here? I don't know of any, and I am familiar with most of the cases that have been mentioned above.
To me, that's the only real cause for partisan outrage in this case. I'd be just as eager to show Foley the door if he were a Democrat.
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Anyone else see the irony in that the foremost authority in the House on sexual predation and the protection of minors (head of the caucus on missing and exploited children, and author of the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act) was caught sending dirty emails to a minor?
Posts: 494 | From: Epping, Essex, UK | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
You know, I really think this ought to be non-partisan. I think all of us agree he behaved improperly, and all of us are pleased that he resigned.
Now, there is the quesiton of whether the Republicans can hold the seat. Apparently, before this came out, Foley had a commanding lead in the polls; it's a pretty strongly Republican district. His name will remain on the ballot (they've already been printed); if "he" wins, the seat will actually go to whoever the Republicans pick to replace him as the nominee (I'm not sure how that works). But whoever that is obviously is at a big disadvantage, both in terms of having to throw together some kind of campaign in only a month, and in being tainted by the scandal (I can see people being hesitant to mark Foley's name, even knowing the vote isn't really going to him). So this is an unexpected opportunity for the Democrats to grab another seat, however it may have come about.
quote:Usually the "But Clinton!" is a way to divert attention from a completely unrelated scandal. "Oh, secret CIA prisons? Well Clinton had an affair in the Oval Office!"
In this case, it's at least marginally germane.
Yes, exactly. Because "soliciting sex from a minor" and "soliciting sex from a minor" miraculously happen to be the exact same crime. I would presume that even "But Clinton"-crying Liberals would have to admit that.
Monica Lewinsky was over twenty-one years of age.
[Extremely hostile remark edited out.]
Silas
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Echinodermata Q. Taft: Apparently, before this came out, Foley had a commanding lead in the polls; it's a pretty strongly Republican district.
Actually, it only leans slightly Republican. I think the PVI (partisan voter index) is about R+2%, or 2% more Republican leaning than the country as a whole. Which essentially means that all else being equal, a Republican could expect to win an open-seat election there with 52% of the vote.
And to put it mildly, all else is not equal. This was already shaping up to be a pretty strongly Democratic-leaning year, Foley's name will still be on the ballot, and the Democratic nominee is well funded. The last poll before the news broke showed Foley up by about 12% - a decent lead, but not overwhelming for a six-term incumbent, and not a good sign at all for whoever replaces him, especially since s/he won't literally be replacing him on the ballot.
Conventional wisdom now holds that this seat has joined the Texas 22nd (Tom DeLay's old seat) and the Arizona 8th on the list of Republican-held seats that the Democrats are all but certain to pick up. Three down, twelve to go.
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ramblin' Dave, quietly making noise: Conventional wisdom now holds that this seat has joined the Texas 22nd (Tom DeLay's old seat) and the Arizona 8th on the list of Republican-held seats that the Democrats are all but certain to pick up. Three down, twelve to go.
I'd throw Colorado 7th and Iowa 1st on that list too.
Posts: 345 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jul 2006
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Couple of things related to what people said:
You really can't compare responses to soliticing underage pages in the 70's or even the 80's and now. That sort of behvavior wasn't as widely condemned in those decades as it is now. People did tend to look the other way. I know of teachers caught with students who didn't lose their jobs, let alone get charged with crimes back in the 70's. (One friend lost his high school girl friend to his football coach.)
I think I remember reading recently that the Senate dragged their feet in investigating Packwood's activities. IIRC, the allegations were known for years before anything was done. Diane Feinstein pushed the issue.
Foley has never been married. Sort of surprised me. Seems being gay is like being an atheist for politicians; they make sure they appear to be something they aren't. (No, I don't know of any atheist politician passing as Christian, but I'm sure they exist.)
I'm travelling right now and haven't been able to read or watch a lot of news. I heard some right wing talk radio last night and watched some FoxNews the night before. I have noticed that the sex of the page is rarely mentioned. Is this the way it's being handled across the board or just on the right? Or has the small amount of coverage I've accessed not representative of what's really happening?
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I was just watching the CTV news here in Canada and they made it clear that he had a history of inappropriate behavior directed towards male pages and that this has been known to Republicans on the hill for the past 5 years. What I find particularly troubling is that this seems to have been fairly common knowledge, at least in some quarters and yet no one seemed to have an issue with him being the Chairman of the House Caucus on Missing and Exploited Children. Talk about balls of steel.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
I can't tell first-hand from over here, but judging from what I've seen on the blogs, it sounds like the mainstream media is taking it pretty seriously. Sadly, I find that very surprising.
The latest, by the way, is that the GOP leadership knew Foley was a predator as long ago as 2001. They did worse than nothing: in 2002, some sort of auction was held in which the grand prize was a private dinner with Foley.
I think I need to go throw up now!
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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