Harvard announced earlier this week that they are halting early admissions. Which is good, I guess. What's the point of admitting early?
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Thanks for posting that, snopes. We're in full college application mode now with my oldest daughter. The school definitely pushes the importance of the essay and volunteerism. Of course, here in Florida, volunteer hours equal real scholarship money, so it's worth it.
At the high school's college night last month, the counselor stood up and read off examples of great essays. All of them were glurge-worthy stories of kids who'd overcome great obstacles in their lives - parents dying, losing a home in a hurricane, etc. My poor daughter doesn't have any stories like that! How will she ever get into college if I don't die before she writes her first essay?
posted
Hmmm when I was admitted I was able to get into whatever college I chose because I had good SAT scores and such. In short, I was smart, and intellectual which apparently is unusual in an Art School. At least according to the admission personages.
And none of the stuff mentioned as being a myth mattered to them either. Of course I want to an art school, that *gasp* didn't care so much for my portfolio. That's just wrong. >_<
posted
Spam & Cookies: I don't recall having to write an admissions essay to University of West Florida or to UF. I started out at UWF in 2002, then left because I hated Pensacola, transferred to a community college, and then transferred with my AA to UF, where I currently am. I'm almost certain there was no essay-writing for admission at either of these universities.
I had no plans to go to college after high school, but my parents were determined to make me go anyway. My mother secretly filled out applications for scholarships and college admissions, forging my signature on all the documents. (She decided this was her right because I was 17 and still a minor.) She lied to my teachers in order to get them to write me letters of recommendation. For the scholarship essay I think she submitted an essay or report I'd written in English class. Obviously when I found out about all this being done behind my back, I was furious and (unnecessarily) snotty to the folks at FAU who congratulated me on being accepted. Needless to say, I did not go to FAU. I did not accept the scholarship I'd won, either. I loafed around for a year and then got a job for another year, and then finally decided to go to college on my terms. When I applied to UWF, I barely had anything to put on my application form because I'd never participated in any extracurricular activites or done any volunteer work. They took me anyway, but I think it's because they're a small school that no one's really heard of. I think they took me based solely on my grades and test scores (which weren't all that great.) Amazingly, the scholarship I'd been awarded two years earlier was still available; I just had to have it "reactivated".
I don't know if it still works this way, but Bright Futures will pay 100% with volunteer hours, and 75% of tuition if the student has no volunteer hours. Amazingly, my mother decided not to lie about the fact that I'd never done any community service, so I only got 75% tuition.
Is your daughter planning to go to a Florida university?
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
I went to UWF too, Cervus. I didn't have any set-in-stone plans to go to college, and don't even remember filling out the scholarship form that eventually paid off. I got a letter in the middle of the summer telling me that I'd won a $4000 per year "scholarship loan", so I scrambled to apply at the last minute. Somewhere in the blur, I picked UWF, and they took me. No essay.
My daughter wants to go to FSU, into their music program. Bright Futures should take her all the way once she finishes up her 75 volunteer hours.
posted
Here at UF, they're cutting funding for incoming National Merit scholars, and the administration complains that Bright Futures makes it "too easy" for "everyone" to get into college. That's supposedly why we're not a Top Ten school, which is a position President Bernie Machen obsessively spends millions of dollars trying to obtain. In addition to Bright Futures paying most students' tuition, our regular tuition rates are the lowest in the state, and our school is overcrowded. The college of Liberal Arts & Sciences and our libraries have no funding, there aren't enough teachers, and our TA's are paid below the poverty line. All because the president of UF prefers to spend millions of dollars on advertising campaigns, slogans, logos, and a new "interactive" website rather than actually providing students with an education. Apparently by making it tougher to allow students to receive Bright Futures scholarships and attend college, this will boost our school into the Top Ten. Or something stupid like that.
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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Bill
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
(1) Possibly slight hijack:
On "legacy admissions," the Forbes article suggests that legacy preference is largely a "myth" and is "at most a feather on the scale."
As I understand it, legacy status by itself isn't given all that much weight, apparently less than race. I don't doubt it, but if someone's parent is a super-rich alumni donor or a super-celebrity, I can see that person getting more than just a slight preference (the legacy slide seems to admit at the end that alumni donations can be a factor).
Fresh in my mind because earlier this week I heard this gentleman give a talk about his recent book: (not trying to promote sales of the book, and not trying to start a soapbox argument):
Mr. Golden attempts to make the argument that the "elite" colleges have a lot of techniques for giving preference for the wealthy or well-connected.
(2) On AnglRdr's question on early admissions, an article this week said, "Early admissions programs were designed to let students get the process out of the way."
The president of Harvard said earlier this week that "Early admission programs tend to advantage the advantaged" and prevent students who will be needing financial aid from comparing aid packages. An article said that the acceptance rate is typically higher for early decision applicants (as it was at Harvard) but "the applicant pool is usually stronger."
posted
Anybody else have trouble with the Forbes link? It is "auto-nexting" on me. Each page comes up for about 7 0r 8 seconds, then it automatically goes to the next page like I clicked "next."
It isn't giving me time to read the whole page.
Robbie -I ain't no speed-reader- V
ETA: Never mind. There is a "slower" and "faster" option. It's odd that it defaults at such a fast speed.
-------------------- Every time I see a good looking woman, I think, "0oooh. There's another one I'll never have!"
Corvette. The louder you scream, the faster I'll go. Posts: 1820 | From: Memphis, TN | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by robbiev - singin' off key: Anybody else have trouble with the Forbes link? It is "auto-nexting" on me. Each page comes up for about 7 0r 8 seconds, then it automatically goes to the next page like I clicked "next."
It isn't giving me time to read the whole page.
Robbie -I ain't no speed-reader- V
ETA: Never mind. There is a "slower" and "faster" option. It's odd that it defaults at such a fast speed.
It's a slide show. If you click "stop" on each page it won't auto-next them. The slide show is kind of a stupid idea in the first place, if you ask me.
As for the content, I'd never even heard most of those, and the ones I had heard I already knew to be incorrect. How silly to assume that you MUST get a 5 on an AP exam or you might as well give up on the whole thing.
-------------------- Officially Heartless Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005
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Harvard announced earlier this week that they are halting early admissions. Which is good, I guess. What's the point of admitting early?
Early admissions benefit the school in two ways. This is because at most schools, people who apply early decision are legally bound to attend that school. Thus people who apply early are generally the most enthusiastic about that particular school (because they definitively chose to go to that school above all others).
The second (and probably more important) reason is that it greatly simplifies things for the admission office. For every person they admit early, they know that person is coming to that school. It's basically written in stone. So when continuing to plan and predict for their incoming class, there is some solidity there. Admissions officers have to over-accept because some people who are accepted will not attend that school. With this there is the potential to accept too many people and have too large a class, which could be a real problem for some schools. There is also the problem of accepting too few people. This can be remedied by using a wait list, but colleges will generally have less power and choice with who they accept off of a wait list (because many will have already chosen a school, etc).
At a small school like mine, there is serious potential for large variation in the percentage of people who accept admissions offers, and this could seriously detriment the school's ability to recruit the type of class they want.
As far as applying earlier not helping you, this is true for most schools which have an application deadline, but some schools do have rolling admissions instead. In that case, applying early does help, because the later you apply the more people they already have for their class, and consequently the less they need.
As far as legacies admissions, they are a factor, regardless of what Forbes says. At my school, the acceptance rate of legacies was nearly twice that of non-legacies. I don't have time to look right now, but I'll try to link the article later.
ETA: I'm going to go ahead and say a lot of Forbe's unsupported claims in this slide show are basically wrong. Well, they're not wrong, but they're basically building straw men and knocking them down. No one's saying legacies or black applicants or brilliant essay writers automatically get in. But the fact is, they really do help.
The other thing this ignores is that schools are very different from each other.
I've got to go to class, but more on this later.
Posts: 1048 | From: Brunswick, Maine | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Bill: (1) Possibly slight hijack:
On "legacy admissions," the Forbes article suggests that legacy preference is largely a "myth" and is "at most a feather on the scale."
As I understand it, legacy status by itself isn't given all that much weight, apparently less than race. I don't doubt it, but if someone's parent is a super-rich alumni donor or a super-celebrity, I can see that person getting more than just a slight preference (the legacy slide seems to admit at the end that alumni donations can be a factor).
Agreed. In my admittedly limited experience, legacy status doesn't help at all if Mom and Dad never gave the university any money. And if they did? Three words: George Walker Bush.
Ramblin' "Yale really could use an international airport, actually" Dave
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ThistleSquall: As for the content, I'd never even heard most of those, and the ones I had heard I already knew to be incorrect. How silly to assume that you MUST get a 5 on an AP exam or you might as well give up on the whole thing.
A 5? There are some APs that are nearly impossible to get a 5 on. I went to a school ranked top-20 nationally for private education, and the Bio department was still searching for its first five. Toledo still hasn't seen one, and my HS had some perfect SATs.
-------------------- "To be or not to be! That is the question! Now, will you answer, dare, double dare, or take the Physical Challenge?" --Mark Summers as Hamlet Countdown: 177 days and counting... or less. My blog. 14 keyboards owed. Posts: 5584 | From: Ohio | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
The issue with Harvard and a lot of Ivy and early admission is due to a false reading of the statistics.
A larger percentage of early admission students get in, so some people think that early admission gives you a better chance. But those who apply for early admission are usually the top candidates, anyway, and the higher percentage is from a smaller pool. Usually, colleges won't accept anyone for Early Decision that they wouldn't accept for the regular decision (obviously, this isn't 100% accurate, but it's close enough).
You go for Early Decision because you really want to commit to that school above all others. That choice is a factor, but only one of many to affect your chances.
My daughter went early decision and got in, but probably would have gotten in on regular decision: she fell in love the the school and didn't want to go anywhere else, which is the reason for Early Decision. If she had been undecided, it would have been a bad choice.
But I remember one story about a student who went ED into Penn and ended up hating the fact that it was such a large school in the middle of a big city (Dartmouth, Princetown, or Brown would have been better choices for Ivys). But he had heard that your chances are better if you went ED so could only pick one school.
Posts: 675 | From: Schenectady, NY | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
When I was applying (and, I believe, for quite a while afterward), most of the Ivies had what they called "early admission" rather than early decision. It wasn't binding like early decision is. I guess they figured if you get into Harvard before your other applications are even due, they won't have to twist your arm about going. And they were probably right.
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ThistleSquall: As for the content, I'd never even heard most of those, and the ones I had heard I already knew to be incorrect. How silly to assume that you MUST get a 5 on an AP exam or you might as well give up on the whole thing.
A 5? There are some APs that are nearly impossible to get a 5 on. I went to a school ranked top-20 nationally for private education, and the Bio department was still searching for its first five. Toledo still hasn't seen one, and my HS had some perfect SATs.
Yep, that's why it's silly to think that without a 5 you're screwed.
-------------------- Officially Heartless Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
About the essay: I applied to three colleges, and I didn't have to write a single essay. I withdrew my application from one and got accepted to the others.
I know anecdote isn't evidence, but sometimes the case study changes the other experiments from "Definate correlation" to "Usual correlation."
-Storm Petrelgirl
-------------------- "I suggest we decide through a knife battle" "But you're the only one of us that carries a knife." "Correction, [I carry] four." Posts: 64 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Sep 2006
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My parents forged my college application too, but I wouldn't have had to write an essay anyway. As a high school student, I took a few courses at the college where my parents taught. (Since my HS grades weren't good enough for Ivy League, and this was one of the better state schools around, it wasn't a bad school to go to, and I got faculty-child fee remission, so my parents were happy to have me go there.) To take these courses, I had to be admitted to the School of Continuing Studies, which is how the school admits non-degree seeking students, and pretty much takes anyone who applies, although in SCS, you sometimes additionally need the instructors signature before you can enroll in a particular course. The application process is very simple, and doesn't require SATS or an essay. Because my grades in my college courses were good, is was a matter of a few rubber stamps to transfer me from Continuing Studies to the College of Arts and Sciences. No application process. I did have to take the SATS first, but that was a no-brainer for me, because I happen to be good at standardized tests.
So my mother took me to Europe for the summer as a high school graduation gift-- I actually spent almost a month picking cherries and potatoes at my grandmother's cousins' subsistence farm in Slovakia before we got to Paris or London. Anyway, while I was distracted in Europe, my father performed the mechanitions that got me accepted into the COAS.
Posts: 75 | From: Bloomington, IN | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ThistleSquall: As for the content, I'd never even heard most of those, and the ones I had heard I already knew to be incorrect. How silly to assume that you MUST get a 5 on an AP exam or you might as well give up on the whole thing.
A 5? There are some APs that are nearly impossible to get a 5 on. I went to a school ranked top-20 nationally for private education, and the Bio department was still searching for its first five. Toledo still hasn't seen one, and my HS had some perfect SATs.
Seriously? I got a 5 on my AP Biology. I went to a poor high school too, so I actually wanted to take Biology 101-102 in college, but they wouldn't let me. They did let me take just the lab for the course, which is what I felt I needed most. On the 5 AP tests I took I averaged 4.6. 3 5s (Biology, Calculus BC, Computer Science AB) and 2 4s (English Language & Composition, English Literature). I was the only one at my high school who even took Calculus BC and Computer Science AB, since most of the students opted for the easier versions or opted out of the AP test entirely.
I was always told that a 3 was a good passing score, and colleges seem to give credit for a 3. My college required a 4 for credit for two semesters though. 5 was unnecessary. If you look at the college board site, the awards they give out (like AP Scholar with Distinction) only require an average of 3.5 or 4, which says something about what they think is a good score.
It didn't even occur to me to think that these scores would be scrutinized for admission though. They're more oriented toward getting college credit in high school, not getting into college.
Posts: 2018 | From: Santa Barbara, California | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I only took one AP exam, which was Bio (and yeah, I got a 5 -- it might be rare in some areas, but in my class/school it was nowhere near it. It's hardly impossible). I did it strictly to get out of science once I got to college, which worked beautifully.
I do remember, though, going to tour Boston University and being told that they'd give credit for a 4 -- except in the sciences (I seem to remember specifically natural sciences, but how many natural science AP tests are there?), in which they had just started requiring a 5.
Errata, using the APs as admission material never occurred to me, either, especially since I took my only one during senior spring. A lot of people I know are graduating up to a year early because of taking so many; I guess all those test fees are still a much better deal than a semester's tuition here.
-------------------- "I never liked Hemingway." "I never liked you." Posts: 543 | From: Brooklyn, NY | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
My college admission experience is circa 1988, so YMMV:
I wrote a lot of "admission essays" but these were for scholarships, not admission itself. Now granted I didn't apply to any truly elite schools like an ivy league, but they were private schools that were supposedly 'selective'. My ACT scores pretty much guaranteed me admission for all schools I was considering, so it was just a matter of who would pay the most scholarship money (and, of course, my personal preference).
In Iowa, where I grew up, and home of the ACT, SAT's are (or at least were, when I was at that point in my life) almost unheard of unless you're applying to a school that requires them (which again, would be outside of the upper midwest).
posted
OK, I read college applications and admit (and deny) students for a living, and I could go on for days about the questions raised in the OP and throughout the thread. However, since I'm currently on the road visiting high schools and attending college fairs and talking about these topics repeatedly for many hours a day, I'm really not up to it. So, I leave you with this:
The analyses in the article linked in the OP are gross oversimplifications at best. In short, admission decisions are a combination of academic history (including grades/trend in grades and choice of courses); test scores; and intangibles whose importance will differ wildly depending on the school, the individual student, and the way the individual student represents him or herself.
The best thing to do to find out what "colleges" are looking for is to thoroughly research the web site of the institution of interest and, if questions remain, contact the institution's admissions office directly and ask the questions point blank.
-------------------- Suddenly she realizes that amongst a crazy drunken schoolmarm, a navy swim instructor with a food fetish, a southern hick farmer, a porn star turned used car dealer, and a horny ex-football player, she won't be this strange outsider. Posts: 701 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
The school I attended (in the 90's in Ontario, Canada) had a 14-page application for the engineering program. It included questions about your extra-curricular activities, awards, what courses you repeated (and why), the last 3 books you read, and an opportunity to explain any extenuating circumstances to your high-school experience. By comparison, most other programs at this and other Canadian universities had no detailed application whatsoever.
The architecture program at this same school required an application, portfolio of your work, and if you lived within 300 miles, an interview. All this for an undergraduate program - which was rare, if not unique, across the country at that time.
For my friends who applied to study physics, all they did was fill out their basic application for choice of program, and waited patiently. Admission was based solely on your grades. There are no standardized tests like the ACT or SAT in Canada.
-------------------- "The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat Posts: 1587 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ramblin' Dave, quietly making noise:
quote:Originally posted by Bill: (1) Possibly slight hijack:
On "legacy admissions," the Forbes article suggests that legacy preference is largely a "myth" and is "at most a feather on the scale."
As I understand it, legacy status by itself isn't given all that much weight, apparently less than race. I don't doubt it, but if someone's parent is a super-rich alumni donor or a super-celebrity, I can see that person getting more than just a slight preference (the legacy slide seems to admit at the end that alumni donations can be a factor).
Agreed. In my admittedly limited experience, legacy status doesn't help at all if Mom and Dad never gave the university any money. And if they did? Three words: George Walker Bush.
Ramblin' "Yale really could use an international airport, actually" Dave
Which explains why my brother, with several generations of Yale alumni on both sides of the family but only middling grades, didn't get into Yale. Twice.
Four Kitties
-------------------- If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales? Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
5s are not rare where I come from. Certainly, I had to work for them, but I got a 5 on six AP tests, each one that I passed (got a 2 in Calculus and, oddly, art). I took AP Bio, AP Language (formerly AP Journalism), AP Literature, AP US History, AP Psychology, and AP Government.
All the colleges I applied to wanted students to take AP classes to show they were interested in challenging themselves, and they were more concerned about that than the actual scores.
I had to write at least one essay for the colleges I applied to. I was only really involved in one activity, but it was the literary magazine and I was the assistant editor and on the layout staff, which meant I stayed after for hours all spring designing page layouts. I think any more dedication to it would have made me drop dead from the stress. Posts: 2 | From: Fredericksburg, VA | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
My highschool only had IB or AP classes, and 5s and 4s made up the majority of the scores. Of course, your actual AP score didn't matter a whit because by the time you knew most of the scores you had already been accepted to college.
In college, AP and IB didn't get me out of any classes. IB credit is not even counted by my college, even though I got a perfect overall score, including 7's in higher english lit, higher math, higher physics and higher chemistry. AP classes can give you credit hours, but don't actually pass you out of many classes.
Posts: 336 | From: Currently: Jakarta Indonesia Australia Belgium Berkeley CA > Lima Peru< | Registered: May 2002
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quote:Originally posted by zerocool: In college, AP and IB didn't get me out of any classes. IB credit is not even counted by my college, even though I got a perfect overall score, including 7's in higher english lit, higher math, higher physics and higher chemistry. AP classes can give you credit hours, but don't actually pass you out of many classes.
At Toledo, APs would actually pass you out of the introductory classes. A three on AP Chemistry got me out of Chem-1090, the elementary class, while a three on US History got me out of Hist-1230, the antebellum US history.
-------------------- "To be or not to be! That is the question! Now, will you answer, dare, double dare, or take the Physical Challenge?" --Mark Summers as Hamlet Countdown: 177 days and counting... or less. My blog. 14 keyboards owed. Posts: 5584 | From: Ohio | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote: As I understand it, legacy status by itself isn't given all that much weight, apparently less than race. I don't doubt it, but if someone's parent is a super-rich alumni donor or a super-celebrity, I can see that person getting more than just a slight preference (the legacy slide seems to admit at the end that alumni donations can be a factor).
Depends on the school... at some smaller, "tradition-bound" colleges (like The Citadel), legacy status--whole not sufficient in and of itself to ensure admission--can be the majordeciding factor between two candidates, even if one is somewhat more academically qualified than the other. For small schools with extremely tight alumni networks, never discount the power of the legacy or the "alumni buddy hook-up."
-------------------- High on the wind, the Highland drums begin to roll, and something from the past just comes and stares into my soul... --Mark Knopfler Posts: 3402 | From: New Bern, NC | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Yeah, I agree with DR. In a small school, the alumni network can make a big difference, even if that just means letting the applicant know what she needs to do to get in, which is often not made 100% explicit.
Posts: 4922 | From: Kyoto, Japan | Registered: Sep 2005
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