Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Well I am also assuming that he's max 19 years old. He may have wanted to marry her legally, but saner heads prevailed. Just because wiser people know that they are in no-way equiped for a marriage even if they were both healthy, but especially since she has a terminal illness, doesn't mean that they themselves know it. But it does sound like they respect the opinions of her mother and the church officials that arranged this for them. Who probably had a very long sitdown with them and explained why this was actually the best way to proceed.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
quote:Originally posted by Rhiandmoi: Well I am also assuming that he's max 19 years old. He may have wanted to marry her legally, but saner heads prevailed. Just because wiser people know that they are in no-way equiped for a marriage even if they were both healthy, but especially since she has a terminal illness, doesn't mean that they themselves know it. But it does sound like they respect the opinions of her mother and the church officials that arranged this for them. Who probably had a very long sitdown with them and explained why this was actually the best way to proceed.
I agree that they clearly reached a compromise. And you put it very eloquently that these two may not know that they are not equipped for marriage. That's really where my issue stems from: I have a very hard time believing that these two would get married were she not dying.
She's in a horrible situation and I don't wish it on anybody.
I hold a very serious view of marriage and am frequently disgusted by the state of marriage in modern society. It further disgusts me that gay couples, many of whom may hold a higher respect for marriage than their heterosexual counterparts, are denied the right to commit to each other through marriage. I get very touchy about marriage and weddings, and I do feel that far too much emphasis is placed on weddings and far too little placed on the days, years, and decades that follow the wedding.
-------------------- "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Methuselah: The majority opinion believes that I am wrong in my view that this girl (and her boyfriend) don't seem to understand the difference between a marriage and a wedding. I hold that view towards society in general. The story in the OP reinforced my opinion.
I'm not sure that I disagree with you in general, but I don't think that in this case it really matters that much.
You're right that this is not a long term commitment they are entering into, but they know that. And maybe they don't have the understanding or maturity necessary to enter into a marriage that would stand the test of time, but they don't really need it, do they? They may very well be playing at real life, but how exactly are they hurting themselves?
It's like a dying child who doesn't just want to visit Disneyland, she wants to live out her days there. Does it really matter if she misses school? Or lives on popcorn and cheeseburgers? Or plays pretty pretty princess to her heart's content?
I can see where there would be a concern for Ryda that it would reinforce stereotypes, or for you that it would make light of something that people shouldn't enter into haphazardly. But can't those concerns be suspended temporarily for one dying girl?
I just think society's battles should be fought on other fronts.
-------------------- The technical term is narcissism. You can't believe everything is your fault unless you also believe you're all powerful.--House Posts: 2684 | From: Budapest | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Little Pink Pill: I can see where there would be a concern for Ryda that it would reinforce stereotypes, or for you that it would make light of something that people shouldn't enter into haphazardly. But can't those concerns be suspended temporarily for one dying girl?
That I can agree with. I, as I've said before, went off my rocker with ire on this one. Part of that was the logical reasons I've stated. However, a large part was personal bile and dislike, based on experience.
Yeah. I can suspend those concerns. After all, I'm not trying to block this wedding. But I still hold to the fact that this story is, on the whole, bothersome.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Little Pink Pill: You're right that this is not a long term commitment they are entering into, but they know that. And maybe they don't have the understanding or maturity necessary to enter into a marriage that would stand the test of time, but they don't really need it, do they? They may very well be playing at real life, but how exactly are they hurting themselves?
I won't argue with that logic.
-------------------- "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by Methuselah:
quote:Originally posted by Rhiandmoi: Well I am also assuming that he's max 19 years old. He may have wanted to marry her legally, but saner heads prevailed. Just because wiser people know that they are in no-way equiped for a marriage even if they were both healthy, but especially since she has a terminal illness, doesn't mean that they themselves know it. But it does sound like they respect the opinions of her mother and the church officials that arranged this for them. Who probably had a very long sitdown with them and explained why this was actually the best way to proceed.
I agree that they clearly reached a compromise. And you put it very eloquently that these two may not know that they are not equipped for marriage. That's really where my issue stems from: I have a very hard time believing that these two would get married were she not dying.
They would have gone steady a couple more years, give her a chance to graduate from high school. They might both go off to college first. They would probably wait until they had a least one "good" job between them, and then get married, if she weren't dying. But she is. And that sort of throws life's plans out the window.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
quote:Originally posted by Rhiandmoi: They would have gone steady a couple more years, give her a chance to graduate from high school. They might both go off to college first. They would probably wait until they had a least one "good" job between them, and then get married, if she weren't dying. But she is. And that sort of throws life's plans out the window.
I'm just going to stand back to see if Lainie takes issue with you making these assumptions, as she took issue with me making assumptions about the motivations and emotions in their relationship.
-------------------- "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rhiandmoi: They would have gone steady a couple more years, give her a chance to graduate from high school. They might both go off to college first. They would probably wait until they had a least one "good" job between them, and then get married, if she weren't dying. But she is. And that sort of throws life's plans out the window.
I'm just going to stand back to see if Lainie takes issue with you making these assumptions, as she took issue with me making assumptions about the motivations and emotions in their relationship.
There's a difference between describing a hypothetical scenario and assigning motivation.
-------------------- "It's a perfect system...unless it screws up." -Biology Professor Posts: 495 | From: Orange County, CA | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rhiandmoi: They would have gone steady a couple more years, give her a chance to graduate from high school. They might both go off to college first. They would probably wait until they had a least one "good" job between them, and then get married, if she weren't dying. But she is. And that sort of throws life's plans out the window.
I'm just going to stand back to see if Lainie takes issue with you making these assumptions, as she took issue with me making assumptions about the motivations and emotions in their relationship.
There's a difference between describing a hypothetical scenario and assigning motivation.
Yup. This hypothetical scenario is being derived from assigned motivations. It's even more removed from reality. However, it might very well have been the case (well, except for the college thing....)
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ryda Wong: Of these shows: My Two Dads, Full House, Step by Step, Punky Brewster, Diff'rent Strokes, Who's the Boss?. I remember that Who's the Boss had Tony Danza. Full House had that annoying video guy. But were those shows about people living together in co-habiting sexual agreements or gay relationships or polyamerous marriages or swingers or boston marriages or with non-realted kids or completely celebate?
But do they really have to have all those different kinds of alternate lifestyles for them to be valid?
And for the record, there is "Big Love" nowadays. (Yay for polygamy! Except for when it happens in Juniper Creek... )
-------------------- "You can't play Electro-magnetic Golf according to the rules of Centrifugal Bumble Puppy." -Mustapha Mond, "Brave New World" Posts: 679 | From: New York | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I thought of another cohabiting example: Miranda and Steve in _Sex and the City_. In fact, several characters on that show moved in and out. But apart from Monica and Chandler, I can't think of any network shows.
Catholic Culture says: "On the current sitcom "Friends," Monica and Chandler had been "living together" for an entire season before the thought of a marriage engagement was even a possibility." But even they can't come up with any more. Neither can "The Family POlicy Council."
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I don't know the characters names anymore but IIRC there have been several co-habiting couples on ER. Sadly, it usually ends in tears, but that is less because they are co-habiting and more because all relationships on ER seem to end in tears.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
More from "Catholic Culture:" "In the beginning, situation comedies like "I Dream of Jeannie" pushed the proverbial envelope by uniting a young handsome bachelor with a scantily clad attractive Jeannie in the same household. Nevertheless, Jeannie always slept in her bottle.
Times, however, have changed. Today, according to Hollywood, cohabitation is seen as an indispensable prerequisite to marriage. On the current sitcom "Friends," Monica and Chandler had been "living together" for an entire season before the thought of a marriage engagement was even a possibility."
I wonder why the scare quotes round "living together"? And if it's an indispensable prerequisite, where are all the other examples?
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
My point is that any alternative arrangement other than hetro co-habitation that might lead to marriage, but might not, but it isn't totally ruled out is still the default.
Interestingly enough, though, I was talking to a buddy at work yesterday. Out of our closest friends, none were married, and most co-habiting with their partners if they had one. I will probably be the first of all my friends to get married at age 28. Course I was the first to go through an engagement, too (17-19.) I'm just a fast, fast woman.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Snowy Chloe: More from "Catholic Culture:" "In the beginning, situation comedies like "I Dream of Jeannie" pushed the proverbial envelope by uniting a young handsome bachelor with a scantily clad attractive Jeannie in the same household. Nevertheless, Jeannie always slept in her bottle.
Times, however, have changed. Today, according to Hollywood, cohabitation is seen as an indispensable prerequisite to marriage. On the current sitcom "Friends," Monica and Chandler had been "living together" for an entire season before the thought of a marriage engagement was even a possibility."
I wonder why the scare quotes round "living together"? And if it's an indispensable prerequisite, where are all the other examples?
I wonder if they are using the term co-habitating when they mean unmarried couples having sex without it being a Big Deal? Certainly Friends would be an excellent example of a TV show that has characters who move from sexual partner to sexual partner, sometimes in a long term relationship (relatively speaking) like Ross & Rachel or Monica & Richard, but often far more casually and often :grasp: without any intention of making any kind of committment at all.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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I'm surprised in thinking about this because I don't think I know anyone IRL outside of very religious people who didn't live together before getting married (or instead of). Yet we rarely seem to see this reality reflected on tv.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Well I see it all the time on daytime TV. But my stories have all sorts of complicated sexual arrangements.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
quote:Originally posted by Rhiandmoi: They would have gone steady a couple more years, give her a chance to graduate from high school. They might both go off to college first. They would probably wait until they had a least one "good" job between them, and then get married, if she weren't dying. But she is. And that sort of throws life's plans out the window.
I'm just going to stand back to see if Lainie takes issue with you making these assumptions, as she took issue with me making assumptions about the motivations and emotions in their relationship.
Only because she said "would have" and not "might have."
Seriously, my point would be that really, none of us know what would happen to these two if she weren't sick. Maybe they would have broken up already. Maybe they would have gotten married. If they did, they might make a mess of it or they might be successful.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I don't have any problem with a 17 year-old getting "married," when she has to deal with a compressed life. My parents were married and had me by age 19 and are still together. My maternal grandparents married at age 18 and were married when grandpa passed away at age 62. Seventeen really isn't that big of a stretch, and the extenuating circumstances make it all the more reasonable. I already mentioned that one of Mooommmmeee's friends got married--legally--literally on his death bed. I'm talking hours before he passed away.
If it's something you want to experience, I say go for it. Legal or not, it's a public committment with possible religious overtones, making it not unlike a baptism or confirmation IMO. I think it's sweet.
-------------------- "If I didn't see it and didn't know it was a real news report, I wouldn't believe it. I mean, how nutty can you get?"-Pat Robertson Oct 26, 2006. Posts: 2936 | From: Mean Streets of West Virginia | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Geez, I hate it when the Glurge Gallery gets monopolized by these arguments. Doesn't anybody have a glurge that compares Jesus to an open septic tank or something?
-------------------- I like to go down to the playground and watch the kids run and jump and scream, because they don't know I'm only using blanks. Posts: 942 | From: Illinois | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by TB Tabby: Geez, I hate it when the Glurge Gallery gets monopolized by these arguments. Doesn't anybody have a glurge that compares Jesus to an open septic tank or something?
Jesus rose from the dead just as methane gas rises from an open septic tank, filling our lungs with his choking, toxic love...
-------------------- Come on, come on - spin a little tighter Come on, come on - and the world's a little brighter Posts: 5595 | From: Columbus, OH : The Soccer Capital of America | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Understood, this is a topic up for discussion, but being on the inside of this topic and reading for days. I had to add. First Christian and Nicoles decision to want to exchange vows came only from the heart. With all considered, This ceremony was meant to be. Christian and Nicole have been through alot together. They have more than shown their love is real. Christian has not left her side, nor I believe ever will through anything they may encounter. They are young, and no one knows, except a higher power, what they're relationship would hold a head, but they must live for today. I will never regret having faith in their vows to each other, and that they know and understand the true meaning of vows and love. As for the religous comments,and Nicoles supposed beliefs. Think what you may. The "lavish" wedding reception was beautiful, and was only to help make their day, more memorable for both, but at no time I'm sure, did anyone forget or not think of the true meaning of why we were there.
Posts: 3 | From: Mentor, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2006
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-------------------- The technical term is narcissism. You can't believe everything is your fault unless you also believe you're all powerful.--House Posts: 2684 | From: Budapest | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Hmmm, the article states it isn't exactly a real wedding, but it doesn't specify whether or not Nicole's boyfriend knows about her condition. So I guess I'll assume he does.
It seems a little bizarre, and I'm not sure why that site thought this rather depressing story was worth printing other than to give people a tug-at-the-heart, and isn't that what glurge is all about?
People shack up on TV all the time. Traditional marriage and staying together more or less happily is pretty uncommon. Cheating is rampant. Happily single people are just about non-existant in TVland from what I've seen.
As for this being glurge, hey, it's a story about someone dying, and that's enough to qualify IMO. It could turn into a chain letter if people begin forwarding it around. And then it would be one of those that started out as having been real. But five or six years later, if people are still forwarding it, it would become a real but outdated glurge chain.
I'm glad Jesus wasn't mentioned in this one, for once, though he probably will be if forwarders get hold of it and use the usual emotional bullying to get others passing it along. And I hate it so much when Jesus gets mentioned in chain mail, and when other Christians who are supposed to use their heads, don't, and forward just because God is mentioned in it somewhere. That makes them look foolish and provides ways for people to try making a mockery of Jesus and anybody who believes in him. And that makes me want to break things.
Posts: 63 | From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
It would be pretty difficult for him not to know at this point, wouldn't it? Considering that we don't even know them, and we know about her condition...
Ooh, thought of another example. Carrie and Petrovsky basically were shacking up without getting married, in Paris. Also, on Cheers, didn't Frasier and Lilith live together before they got married? Oh, and on Boy Meets World, Shawn and Angela live together for a very short time without getting married afterwards. Hm, so do Rachel and Jack, for that matter...
-------------------- "You can't play Electro-magnetic Golf according to the rules of Centrifugal Bumble Puppy." -Mustapha Mond, "Brave New World" Posts: 679 | From: New York | Registered: Oct 2001
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And I watch all the "Law And Orders" and the "CSI" shows when they're on and I have the time and the interest. You get all kinds, married, shacked up, multiple chaters, players, bigomists, none as main characters, but the bizarre situations with people that crop up during detective work is astounding.
quote:Originally posted by Capri: Hmmm, the article states it isn't exactly a real wedding, but it doesn't specify whether or not Nicole's boyfriend knows about her condition. So I guess I'll assume he does.
Rotnem's post above suggests he does. Apparently she knows the couple.
Rotnem, my best wishes to them and their families.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Capri: Hmmm, the article states it isn't exactly a real wedding, but it doesn't specify whether or not Nicole's boyfriend knows about her condition. So I guess I'll assume he does.
Rotnem's post above suggests he does. Apparently she knows the couple.
Rotnem, my best wishes to them and their families.
posted
Sorry about above, I'm new at this. Thankyou, Lainie, and Little pink pill, they will appreciate this I'm sure. Yes, I know the couple. Christian is my son. I found this forum while searching for newspaper articles and videos, so of course I read it, there's been alot of interesting points, but some, sorry, I just couldn't accept. This is hard whatever way you look at it.The publicity this has received, believe me, none of us thought would happen. Through it all, the reason for all this cannot be forgotton. Christian and Nicole have recieved many letters, prayers, and support. They truly do deserve it,and appreciate every bit of it. They recently went to New York for the weekend, compliments of New York Daily news, They gave them a unforgettable trip. It was in the Sat. and Sun. paper. Christian and Nicole are not lavish, people, rather, very down to earth. Even in stories of New York, I've heard them speak so much of how ground zero was, and how hard it must have been for the people who lived there. Not their own issues. They have had some memorable experiences together, that alot of us will never have,and I'm glad they have been able to experience. They do have a long road ahead, as many do, and they know that. Through all the exicitment, they unfortunatly cannot forget that. I am very proud of my son,Christian,and Nicole for the way they have dealt with everything they have encountered together. Once again thanks for the well wishes, they are very much appreciated.
Posts: 3 | From: Mentor, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Give the family my wishes. It sounds like they shared a glorious time together.
-------------------- It's like they took a bunch of movies, put them in a blender and turned it on really fast!-Mystery Science Theater 3000 Posts: 2603 | From: Magna, Utah | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
The second article pointed out that the young man had proposed to her either just over or almost a year before the wedding was due to take place. It really gave the impression that he had proposed and the idea for the wedding came about after they realized that their time was running nigh, as they say. Regardless of my opinion of weddings (hint: I'm generally against them) I don't think it really sounds like a "Let's have an excuse for a party!" moment.
Rotnem: It sounds like it was a wonderful time. My best to you and yours.
-------------------- Tyger, Tyger burning bright In the forest of the night What immortal hand or eye Hath framed thy fearful symmetry? Posts: 74 | From: Charlotte, NC | Registered: Sep 2006
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Rotnem: You should be proud of your son. Not many young men his age would be able to stand by the person he loves through such a horrible ordeal. I'm glad to hear they have been able to have a nice honeymoon. My prayers are with them both, and you as well.
I think many of us forget, or chose to ignore, that when we discuss real people, they could be watching. I am sorry you read things here that were hurtful. Take Care.
-------------------- This used to be the life, but I don't need another one. MyBandwagon Posts: 3254 | From: small town Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Starla, I agree, but I'm glad, too, that rotnem read some nice things.
Best wishes, rotnem.
Mentor spelled backward. Does that have some significance?
-------------------- "This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman "Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam Posts: 4020 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Rotnem, please give your son and Nicole my best wishes. I hope they have happiness for as long as possible.
-------------------- "Cheating Hall Of Shame"-in honor of the dishonest. Every driver, owner and crew chief has a place in our Hall, which won't be moving to Daytona Beach anytime soon. Lone exception? Kyle Petty, who hasn't won a race since 1754. Posts: 545 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Dec 2004
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